Support NeoGAF

[Beckx]

Don't put words into my mouth. Even before I deleted my post, it had nothing at all to do with "addressing all the evils in order to address a single evil."

You wrote that feminists who refuse to acknowledge the problem of men were causing more problems.

 

[Stumpokapow]

I don't agree with generalities and i think it completely disregards the complexity of the issue at hand. Making statements like women just have it tougher than men is exactly what causes some knee jerk reactions. This is exactly what I have a problem with.

It is not a fact that all women have it tougher than all men in all cases no matter what is being discussed. That is not the point anyone is making. It is the case that women are sexually harassed, bullied, shamed, and marginalized in the gaming industry and gaming culture because they are women. This does not mean every woman is abused in every interaction she has in the gaming industry. It is also the case that power has historically been distributed unequally on the basis of gender (this does not imply all women lack power, or all men have it, but rather that power has concentrated itself around men to the exclusion of women). All of these things are undeniably true.

If these things are things you disagree with, it is because you lack an understanding of how gender has been used to oppress people, because you are a male. I've never had a feminist tell me I don't understand something because I'm a male. I'm confident I never will. It doesn't mean you know nothing about suffering or oppression, and it doesn't mean that all women are automatically aware of all suffering and oppression because they are women.

I'd also add that it's incredibly rude when someone is trying to get help with a problem for you to say "I've had worse problems" and act like you're the victim because someone else brought up a problem they're having. Absolutely no one is telling you not to start a discussion about the ways in which you were bullied or discriminated against or harassed based on class or ethnicity or your speech issues (in fact, disability studies has a massive overlap with gender studies in the academic world). What people are telling you is that your experience being hurt shouldn't be telling you to devalue other people being hurt, it should be telling you to help them build a better world.

 

[AmuroRX]

They are devaluing the merit of your struggles in regards to gender oppression, and for good reason. Nobody is saying their discrimination is "worse" than yours. The argument is simply that gender discrimination is a different kind of discrimination, and thus requires it's own solution.

So why is it necessary to make statements like "I’ve personally never heard of a man in the games industry getting rape threats for having an opinion."

What exactly is gained by saying such things. Aside from almost completely dismissing the fact that men do get threats like that.

 

[Thorakai]

I feel your pain, Harlequin. I've experienced this too in these types of threads, so, although I'm sure it will get me threatened or banned, I just wanted to add a word of support for you. These types of threads have a tendency to get turned into echo chambers due to modding.

For future reference (or for those playing at home), the ban was for claiming an obvious case of sexual harassment wasn't really sexual harassment and wasn't worth any upset or outrage, followed by a massive derail in defense of that initial comment which went several strange places, all culminating in saying that people who think discouragement of sexual harassment is a positive development for society are the modern equivalent of slave owners and witch burners.

If you honestly, truly, positively weren't just taking this opportunity to take potshots at moderation and really don't understand the ban... well, I don't know what to tell you. Probably safer for you not to post in any remotely contentious thread.

I'll also add that a lack of response to a complaint email doesn't mean you were ignored. EL reads every email.

Doesn't sound like someone you should lend your support to.

EDIT: Mods are on point today, haha

 

[AmuroRX]

It is not a fact that all women have it tougher than all men in all cases no matter what is being discussed. That is not the point anyone is making. It is the case that women are sexually harassed, bullied, shamed, and marginalized in the gaming industry and gaming culture because they are women. This does not mean every woman is abused in every interaction she has in the gaming industry. It is also the case that power has historically been distributed unequally on the basis of gender (this does not imply all women lack power, or all men have it, but rather that power has concentrated itself around men to the exclusion of women). All of these things are undeniably true.

If these things are things you disagree with, it is because you lack an understanding of how gender has been used to oppress people, because you are a male. I've never had a feminist tell me I don't understand something because I'm a male. I'm confident I never will. It doesn't mean you know nothing about suffering or oppression, and it doesn't mean that all women are automatically aware of all suffering and oppression because they are women.

I'd also add that it's incredibly rude when someone is trying to get help with a problem for you to say "I've had worse problems" and act like you're the victim because someone else brought up a problem they're having. Absolutely no one is telling you not to start a discussion about the ways in which you were bullied or discriminated against or harassed based on class or ethnicity or your speech issues (in fact, disability studies has a massive overlap with gender studies in the academic world). What people are telling you is that your experience being hurt shouldn't be telling you to devalue other people being hurt, it should be telling you to help them build a better world.

I never dimissed the issues brought up by the writer of the article. Nor did i say i had worse problems. Talk about the issues women go through isn't the problem. My problem is the need people have to devalue what men go through to try to make their point.

 

[The Librarian]

I never dimissed the issues brought up by the writer of the article. Nor did i say i had worse problems. Talk about the issues women go through isn't the problem. My problem is the need people have to devalue what men go through to try to make their point.

I don't see anyone doing that.

 

[Giolon]

You wrote that feminists who refuse to acknowledge the problem of men were causing more problems.

Nope. I was responding to besada's first response to AmuroRX's post that nobody in the thread was making the points he was arguing against. There were several posts following that in the time I was writing my response that made me decide it was unnecessary.

That's all the clarification I'm going to provide on it. I removed it for a reason, but it wasn't what you're trying to say I was saying.

 

[Shouta]

I never dimissed the issues brought up by the writer of the article. Nor did i say i had worse problems. Talk about the issues women go through isn't the problem. My problem is the need people have to devalue what men go through to try to make their point.

Receipts.

Just quote someone, find a link, whatever that supports your point. If you have the proof, folks will have to listen.

 

[Wazzy]

I never dimissed the issues brought up by the writer of the article. Nor did i say i had worse problems. Talk about the issues women go through isn't the problem. My problem is the need people have to devalue what men go through to try to make their point.

How are people devaluing what men go through by discussing issues involving the treatment of women in the video game industry?

 

[Neiteio]

I never dimissed the issues brought up by the writer of the article. Nor did i say i had worse problems. Talk about the issues women go through isn't the problem. My problem is the need people have to devalue what men go through to try to make their point.

I think you might've simply misunderstood the situation, then. No one is saying men don't experience oppression of their own. It's just a different sort from what women experience. And what women experience is the concern of this particular thread. They're oppressed in ways specific to their gender, because society has formed a certain way where there are certain privileges women don't enjoy. So this thread is basically analyzing how this translates to the games industry, and perhaps we can figure out some way things can be improved for the better.

 

[jtenma]

I don't see anyone doing that.

I think you should know that what you're saying is another variation of "Men get harassed to, so why should we focus on women?" which undercuts and distracts from the issue at hand.

1. Women are more harassed, on average, than men in the videogame industry and at lart.
2. The reasons why women are harassed, and harassed more than men, stem from different problems than men getting harassed.

These are facts. Saying "men get harassed too" and concluding with by saying "everyone should stop being sexist" isn't at all helpful.

It seems that way to me, anyway. There is some devaluing going on here.

 

[Krejlooc]

So why is it necessary to make statements like "I’ve personally never heard of a man in the games industry getting rape threats for having an opinion."

What exactly is gained by saying such things. Aside from almost completely dismissing the fact that men do get threats like that.

So if im to understand your complaint, if the author had said "men rarely gets rape threats for having an opinion, " you'd be cool? That sounds like splitting hairs and missing the bigger issue.

 

[Gestault]

I never dimissed the issues brought up by the writer of the article. Nor did i say i had worse problems. Talk about the issues women go through isn't the problem. My problem is the need people have to devalue what men go through to try to make their point.

If this is the crux of your concerns in the discussion, then you must be in good spirits. I certainly wouldn't be supportive of that, and very few I've seen in the discussion have given that impression. Actually, I haven't seen that concept proposed, either in thought or practice, have you?

 

[licktheenvelope]

I have a real issue with this type of explanation because, regardless of it's scientific veracity, it completely ignores all context. Let's just assume your assertion is accurate, but let's also assume that men are predisposed to be more physically aggressive and violent due to hormonal influences as well. Fair enough, right? Well, men don't get away with threatening other men in the workplace on a massive scale. "Boys being boys" in the context of workplace violence and harassment really only applies when the boys aren't the ones affected. When it comes to violence, men have to rightly modify their behavior and not act like shitheads regardless of hormonal influences, which we are perfectly fine with. But when it comes to harassment of women, then we have to talk about biology and urges and act like it's an inevitability.

It's not "an inevitability"... my problem is that this assumption that an easy issue to control.

Ya if you've been raised a certain way you'll have an easier time, but that's different than pretending that men don't feel it and that it has zero impact.

 

[Mory Dunz]

Receipts.

Just quote someone, find a link, whatever that supports your point. If you have the proof, folks will have to listen.

I think from the article, he said earlier:

So why is it necessary to make statements like "I’ve personally never heard of a man in the games industry getting rape threats for having an opinion."

What exactly is gained by saying such things. Aside from almost completely dismissing the fact that men do get threats like that.

Personally, any issue that has an Us vs Them vibe...will turn into an Us vs Them argument. Anyway, back to observing.

 

[Amir0x]

I think what is also troubling about AmuroRX's posts so far, on top of being unable to find any actual context for his impression of this article within the article itself, is that it's yet another example of a woman posting a clear string of extremely problematic scenarios in which they face clear, horrific discrimination, but there can't seem to be discussion of that for AmuroRX's without first coming out to try to turn men into victims too. I mean, the article never makes any case that men can't face rejection or discrimination, but AmuroRX was so compelled to make his case for why he was victimized as well, that one can make the case that it's even a bit disrespectful to the people and problems being highlighted in the Polygon story.

 

[Jinko]

So why is it necessary to make statements like "I’ve personally never heard of a man in the games industry getting rape threats for having an opinion."

What exactly is gained by saying such things. Aside from almost completely dismissing the fact that men do get threats like that.

Surely you must realise that woman are at a higher risk of being raped than men, so it makes sense that when threatened with rape the reaction would be a lot different and the damage mentally would be greater.

You said previously that you didn't want to make this men vs woman but you seem to be doing a good job in doing exactly that.

 

[Stumpokapow]

My problem is the need people have to devalue what men go through to try to make their point.

No one is devaluing what men go through to make a point. No one does this. Your insistence that it's not fair for women to say you don't understand what they're saying when you clearly don't understand what they're saying is baffling. Saying that there are things that women experience on account of their gender, does not mean that men cannot understand these things and does not mean that men cannot go through these things (but does mean that men do not systematically go through these things on the basis of gender). Your insistence to make this not a gender issue is not respectful to the women who are trying to cry out to you that it is a gender issue, and part of trying to address the problem is being aware that there is a gendered component to it.

 

[Neiteio]

Maybe it's my tendency to give people the benefit of the doubt, but I'm inclined to think Amuro meant well. Hopefully he understands now that his concerns are unfounded where this line of conversation is concerned.

 

[Amir0x]

Maybe it's my tendency to give people the benefit of the doubt, but I'm inclined to think Amuro meant well. Hopefully he understands now that his concerns are unfounded where this line of conversation is concerned.

He may mean well, but it just doesn't make any sense his point in the context of what this topic and the article actually says. Further, it's another case of 'wait a minute you can't make her into a victim before you make me into a victim too!' At least, that's my interpretation of it. It doesn't read well at all.

 

[barrok]

A bunch of gamer friends and I actually had a similar discussion today about women.

I have a daughter and I fear for her. Whether its the gaming community, the business community, in school or even at an event (sporting or otherwise), a womans look far outweighs anything else about her. While I don't believe that all men are jerk wholes, there are enough of them that can harm women and our female children. It sucks and I wish it didn't exist.

Outside of the gaming community, my wife has similar experiences in her job. She is very well qualified and is constantly talked down to and "alpha maled" by her boss. He constantly ignores her awesome suggestions because she is a women. Even in my church sometimes the females get looked down on. It sucks. I am glad I am not a woman and I wish there is more I could do to help change this (for my daughter more than anything).

 

[Shouta]

I think from the article, he said earlier:

Personally, any issue that has an Us vs Them vibe...will turn into an Us vs Them argument. Anyway, back to observing.

Well, hot damn. It's there in the article. I was avoiding giving polygon a click as well but it's plain as day.

Conclusion: I’ve personally never heard of a man in the games industry getting rape threats for having an opinion.

Kind of dumb to put that comment in the article.

 

[Ganondolf]

I don't get the email and later text bit. who sent it?

If it was the boss you could sue him and the company.

and the text is suable and a threat so the police can get involved.

 

[jtenma]

I think what is also troubling about AmuroRX's posts so far, on top of being unable to find any actual context for his impression of this article within the article itself, is that it's yet another example of a woman posting a clear string of extremely problematic scenarios in which they face clear, horrific discrimination, but there can't seem to be discussion of that for AmuroRX's without first coming out to try to turn men into victims too. I mean, the article never makes any case that men can't face rejection or discrimination, but AmuroRX was so compelled to make his case for why he was victimized as well, that one can make the case that it's even a bit disrespectful to the people and problems being highlighted in the Polygon story.

Let us try to understand Amuro's perspective:

If he is getting this much flak from trying to explain that discrimination is similar in relation to a females', why do you all think it isn't brought up as much?

How notorious is it for XBL/PSN to have people calling others (I'm prob not allowed to say this) [derogatory term for homosexuals] or other hurtful things online? That stuff hurts too.

I THINK that is what Amuro is saying.

 

[The Technomancer]

No one is taking away the pain people feel when they are individually picked on just because they note that certain groups are systematically marginalized. And no one is saying men can't be marginalized because of facets of their identity; Feminists pioneered the concept of intersectional identity.


...

I think I'm going to save both the post this is in response to and this post. Both are very articulate perspectives and the second one summarizes my disagreements with the first with clarity. I can see this exchange being useful in the future

 

[Neiteio]

He may mean well, but it just doesn't make any sense his point in the context of what this topic and the article actually says. Further, it's another case of 'wait a minute you can't make her into a victim before you make me into a victim too!' At least, that's my interpretation of it. It doesn't read well at all.

I can see how you see it that way, but I think he can learn. Hopefully he re-reads the article and thinks about how unique the situations described are to women, and how they must make women feel.

Something I'd really like to see is a focused discussion of possible solutions to these various problems. Talking about the problem is one way to turn the tide. I just wonder what else can be done.

Scholarships to encourage women to go into game design? A call to action for developers to be more inclusive with their hiring policies? A standardized way for female employees to report abuse experienced in their company? A filtering mechanism in comment sections that somehow screen out the hate before it gets to its intended target? (Technology's probably not that advanced yet, is it)

 

[FStop7]

How incredibly shortsighted. Now, if you say anything online that someone vehemently disagrees with, people that disagree with you online can now call you up/visit you and harass you in real life.

Congratulations, you just made a problem a million times worse.

I was just about to mention that. No woman who's been stalked or subjected to harassment would ever post online again under those rules. Not exactly solving the problem.

 

[The Librarian]

It seems that way to me, anyway. There is some devaluing going on here.

There's no devaluing going on there. Read that in the context of the post I was responding too, please.

 

[Krejlooc]

Let us try to understand Amuro's perspective:

If he is getting this much flak from trying to explain that discrimination is similar in relation to female's, why do you all think it isn't brought up as much?

How notorious is it for XBL/PSN to have people calling others (I'm prob not allowed to say this) [derogatory term for homosexuals] or other hurtful things online? That stuff hurts too.

I THINK that is what Amuro is saying.

Thats not a profound insight nor is it pertinent to the discussion, however. This is a discussion about problems females face in the gaming industry. Those are topics for another discussion.

 

[Carcetti]

Let us try to understand Amuro's perspective:

If he is getting this much flak from trying to explain that discrimination is similar in relation to a females', why do you all think it isn't brought up as much?

How notorious is it for XBL/PSN to have people calling others (I'm prob not allowed to say this) [derogatory term for homosexuals] or other hurtful things online? That stuff hurts too.

I THINK that is what Amuro is saying.

That's not all relevant, either, though. Let's say we were discussing the racism against blacks. It's not necessary to always bring up that 'in some places whites are victims of discrimination as well'. They might be related, similar problems, but they can be discussed separately. Likewise, a thread about women facing harassment can be just about women facing harassment.

 

[Wazzy]

It seems that way to me, anyway. There is some devaluing going on here.

No there isn't.

We are discussing the prominency of harassment women experience in the video game industry. It's more common therefore it's a more concerning discussion.

When we discuss racism and discrimination that minorities experience, we wouldn't say that's devaluing any discrimination white people face. We discuss it because we all know racism is more heavily experienced by minorities.

 

[barrok]

I was just about to mention that. No woman who's been stalked or subjected to harassment would ever post online again under those rules. Not exactly solving the problem.

I wish there was an answer on how to solve the problem. I know men are the majority of the problem but I also wish that "problem women" would also help solve the problem. It drives me nuts how many twitch streams are just girls flaunting there cleavage. They aren't helping change the views that women are just boobs. I pray my daughter doesn't get caught up in a girl crowd that promotes sexualizing themselves. I also wish as men we would avoid these stupid channels and help to promote women as incredibly smart and intelligent individuals who aren't defined by their body parts.

I think the that both genders will have to work together the change the perception of women. I hope that happens.

Edit: And to all the men trying to compare men issues with women, just stop. Sure we get crap but women have it ten times worse.

 

[AlphaDump]

such a damn shame. I would be curious the companies involved, and where the complaints and severity are mostly weighted. typically this tone resonates from the top and downward. Do the bigger companies like EA, that have more formalized HR policies, and in effect zero tolerance for harassment, offer more protection? If not, why?

Regardless of company size or formality, we should be championing the ones who do protect women, and provide that as potential beacon for a viable future in this industry.

i personally hope more women are out there documenting these instances, even if they think no one will ever hear it.

 

[ICKE]

Returning to the cockpit with the pilot chute (still saving the parachute for immediate future!)

I was going to respond to this, but then:

Because this thread isn't about men getting harassed. This thread shouldn't be about men getting harassed. It's about men needing to shut the fuck up for once and just listen to what many women have to go through that, statistically, those men probably haven't had to go through.

And see this is exactly the reason why you are not going to find any solutions in the immediate future. The rhetoric is just non-constructive with even terms such as "white male privilege" being thrown about. It creates an atmosphere where these threads become nothing but graveyards and eventually even less people feel inclined to take part.

People are in shock when they read about specific instances of abuse from various articles but at the same time it's all about the surrounding culture. Hit shoryuken, read the forums regarding hate mail. Over there people are expected to just take it day and day out as its part and parcel of living within the fighting game community. You are a fag, you need to die of aids, you are so poor with the stick no wonder you can't get any action. Guys, check out this latest hateful message I received. He called me a monkey! Same applies to shooters. You won't believe the sort of language people used even among their own members in tournament matches back in the day.

Now people act all surprised when players show a lack of empathy and are not willing to play the blame game or ponder the consequences of bullying. No one gave a damn when abuse was going on in the late 90's, it wasn't until later that some companies started to introduce filters and quite frankly those are still non-existent. Now that over a decade has passed we are finally starting to have these discussions but it suddenly becomes about "you need to shut the fuck up and listen, because you are privileged according to some study and these statistics".

So what happens? Nothing. Most players will shrug their shoulders, continue as nothing ever happened. Discussions are pointless as they have learned to deal with it or maybe they haven't but their experiences are not really comparable anyway - deal with it and make your own thread where you can cry about your troubles.

 

[jtenma]

Surely you must realise that woman are at a higher risk of being raped than men, so it makes sense that when threatened with rape the reaction would be a lot different and the damage mentally would be greater.

You said previously that you didn't want to make this men vs woman but you seem to be doing a good job in doing exactly that.

To be fair, the article IS about men vs women. That's what sexism is. This article is mainly discussing the discrimination and the hate speech used by males vs females. Is it not?

 

[Mumei]

It seems that way to me, anyway. There is some devaluing going on here.

To claim that one group of people experiences more of some sort of oppression than another group of people is not to claim that the experiences of any individual in the former group vis-a-vis that sort of oppression is unimportant or not bad. In this case, we're discussing the harassment of women in the games industry. Certainly, men are also harassed; this is bad. But men (as a class) are not harassed to the degree or with the same frequency as women (as a class) are harassed, and making note of this fact tells us that gender is salient and that in order to address harassment with regards to women, we need to address sexism and misogyny within the industry.

 

[LocalE]

This is more of a problem than you buying games that have sexualized women. Obviously you can enjoy a game despite it having a Cortana or something, but saying stuff like this is part of the culture that can lead towards an environment where women are more harassed than men.

Cortana has never done it for me, personally, but I think I get what you're saying.
I don't feel like I have to enjoy a game despite the fact that it contains sexualized characters. I do not have to begrudgingly admit that a game is good 'even though' it has sexualized characters in it. What if I like that aspect along with the fun gameplay?
It doesn't just go for games, either. I can find one tv series more fun to watch than another because some of the characters are women that I like to look at who are presented in a way that is pleasant to look at.
I do not see a problem with that and I will not apologize for it.

What I do see a problem with is a blanket statement that people buying games with sexualized characters in them are "part of the problem", and that the people who make said games are "horrible people".

I'm all for a wider variety of and diversity in characters in video games. I wish more women were involved in game development, and that they were not discriminated against or harassed.
And while wishing that, I know that when things have improved to that point I won't have to bemoan the loss of games that do contain sexualized characters because the people who honestly want to make those games will still have the opportunity to make those games for the audience that exists for those games.

People who want to put a stop to things that I enjoy are in a whole other boat from the people who just want to see more diversity, as far as I'm concerned.
Enjoying hot women in a visual medium, just for being hot, is not a problem.
Enjoying strong, confident, capable women in the same medium, just because they are positive representations of female characters, is also not wrong.

I am able to enjoy it either way. Both ways. I don't need hot chicks to enjoy a game or movie. I don't need fully realized three dimensional characters to enjoy something, either.

tl?:dr? - Let's not damn variety while seeking equality.

 

[Sectorseven]

The harassment comments these women received from Youtube and Reddit and such, did they go back and look at the user's past comments to see if they had a history of, well, shitting on everything? Not that it's an excuse, but it would provide a little more insight into the minds of these types of users.

 

[jtenma]

One more post.



And see this is exactly the reason why you are not going to find any solutions in the immediate future. The rhetoric is just non-constructive with even terms such as "white male privilege" being thrown about. It creates an atmosphere where these threads become nothing but graveyards and eventually even less people feel inclined to take part.

People are in shock when they read about specific instances of abuse from various articles but at the same time it's all about the surrounding culture. Hit shoryuken, read the forums regarding hate mail. Over there people are expected to just take it day and day out as its part and parcel of living within the fighting game community. You are a fag, you need to die of aids, you are so poor with the stick no wonder you can't get any action. Guys, check out this latest hateful message I received. He called me a monkey! Same applies to shooters. You won't believe the sort of language people used even among their own members in tournament matches back in the day.

Now people act all surprised when players show a lack of empathy and are not willing to play the blame game or ponder the consequences of bullying. No one gave a damn when abuse was going on in the late 90's, it wasn't until later that some companies started to introduce filters and quite frankly those are still non-existent. Now that over a decade has passed we are finally starting to have these discussions but it suddenly becomes about "you need to shut the fuck up and listen, because you are privileged according to some study and these statistics".

So what happens? Nothing. Most players will shrug their shoulders, continue as nothing ever happened. Discussions are pointless as they have learned to deal with it or maybe they haven't but their experiences are not really comparable anyway - deal with it and make your own thread where you can cry about your troubles.

That was freaking beautiful. I cried.

 

[SocksForWoks]

No one is devaluing what men go through to make a point. No one does this. Your insistence that it's not fair for women to say you don't understand what they're saying when you clearly don't understand what they're saying is baffling. Saying that there are things that women experience on account of their gender, does not mean that men cannot understand these things and does not mean that men cannot go through these things (but does mean that men do not systematically go through these things on the basis of gender). Your insistence to make this not a gender issue is not respectful to the women who are trying to cry out to you that it is a gender issue, and part of trying to address the problem is being aware that there is a gendered component to it.

Isn't it more of an anonymous troll issue than a gender issue?

 

[weemadarthur]

And see this is exactly the reason why you are not going to find any solutions in the immediate future. The rhetoric is just non-constructive with even terms such as "white male privilege" being thrown about. It creates an atmosphere where these threads become nothing but graveyards and eventually even less people feel inclined to take part.

People are in shock when they read about specific instances of abuse from various articles but at the same time it's all about the surrounding culture. Hit shoryuken, read the forums regarding hate mail. Over there people are expected to just take it day and day out as its part and parcel of living within the fighting game community. You are a fag, you need to die of aids, you are so poor with the stick no wonder you can't get any action. Guys, check out this latest hateful message I received. He called me a monkey! Same applies to shooters. You won't believe the sort of language people used even among their own members in tournament matches back in the day.

Now people act all surprised when players show a lack of empathy and are not willing to play the blame game or ponder the consequences of bullying. No one gave a damn when abuse was going on in the late 90's, it wasn't until later that some companies started to introduce filters and quite frankly those are still non-existent. Now that over a decade has passed we are finally starting to have these discussions but it suddenly becomes about "you need to shut the fuck up and listen, because you are privileged according to some study and these statistics".

So what happens? Nothing. Most players will shrug their shoulders, continue as nothing ever happened. Discussions are pointless as they have learned to deal with it or maybe they haven't but their experiences are not really comparable anyway - deal with it and make your own thread where you can cry about your troubles.

So, why haven't you made a thread about general abusive language in the fighting game / competitive community? It seems like it would lead to valuable discussion.

 

[Haly]

The harassment comments these women received from Youtube and Reddit and such, did they go back and look at the user's past comments to see if they had a history of, well, shitting on everything? Not that it's an excuse, but it would provide a little more insight into the minds of these types of users.

I'm sure the first thing you do when threatened with violence, rape, or just rude sexual advances, is to give your harassers the benefit of the doubt and take the time to dig through their history to verify whether they're targeting you specifically or if this is their general outlook on life.

(No, because that's stupid and not how real people behave when confronted with toxicity. The onus is not on them in the slightest to justify or find justifications for the offending parties' behavior.)

EDIT: A lot of words for a simple "can't be helped" or "deal with it".

 

[Jinko]

To be fair, the article IS about men vs women. That's what sexism is. This article is mainly discussing the discrimination and the hate speech used by males vs females. Is it not?

It's not just about sexism though its about the impact that has on the person (in this example a woman).

If someone threatened me with rape I would brush it off as nothing serious because I am a guy.

If someone threatens a woman with rape (and I am guessing here) I would imagine the reaction would be much more serious. (more so when you get a text with your address)

Calling a straight person the F word or a white person the N word doesn't have the same impact as saying it to gay or black people does it?

Maybe I am way off base here but its more about what's being said and who its being said to.

Men just can't relate to certain things in the same way, just as straight people or white people can't.

Edit:- I suppose you are right though that the article is men vs woman but the discussion doesn't have to be.

 

[kirblar]

The harassment comments these women received from Youtube and Reddit and such, did they go back and look at the user's past comments to see if they had a history of, well, shitting on everything? Not that it's an excuse, but it would provide a little more insight into the minds of these types of users.

The biggest problem with getting rid of this behavior - these people don't care how it affects other people. Trying to make them "feel bad" or shame them for it is not going to work. So you have to impose external penalties on them. In the context of LoL or a Blizzard game, or XBL, this is relatively easy, due to the costs associated with losing an account. When they're an anonymous twitter troll or a random passerby on the street, this is nearly impossible.

So, why haven't you made a thread about general abusive language in the fighting game / competitive community? It seems like it would lead to valuable discussion.

It's the same stuff you see in COD/LoL/etc. Hate/Rage-mail isn't unique.

 

[Etnos]

Yes I am dubious of her claim because I talk to women too. I've also been in the industry for 10 years, worked with many women at different companies all over the US, and have yet to see or hear from my colleagues of this kind of harassment.

I'm not saying it doesn't exist.

I'm not saying she's lying about her expirence.

Nor do I think she's trying to deceive people, I think she genuinely feels like it's rampant.

I'm saying that she's conflating her experiences with being a problem endemic of the video game industry as a whole.

If she's allowed to use her personal experiences to talk on the subject, why do you feel that am I not allowed to?

Good news if in your anecdotical evidence there is no evidence of harrasment, however that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Why would you doubt about her anyway? The evidence is there in the article, did yuo read it? why would they made out any of that? as some people say just check any twitch chanel with a women in it... mysoginia is indeed rampant in the gaming culture, and that is very sad.

 

[Gusy]

how about ANYONE hit on me EVER please?!?

I always find metroid- related avatars super sexy.

 

[Maidenpool?]

What's the age of the "men" who send these messages? I know what they write is terrible, but if anyone is astonished that 12 year old-and-under boys talk tons of shit online, that isn't necessarily news.

 

[Mory Dunz]

That's not all relevant, either, though. Let's say we were discussing the racism against blacks. It's not necessary to always bring up that 'in some places whites are victims of discrimination as well'. They might be related, similar problems, but they can be discussed separately. Likewise, a thread about women facing harassment can be just about women facing harassment.

I think it kind of becomes a comparison even if it isn't meant to when it to when talking about women and men's issues.

In order to describe this kind of issue, it has to be a Men vs Women thing. That's the only way it's possible. What I mean is, you can't just say, "Women get harrassed", or "Woman get threats" as blanket statements because the next question would be "...compared to who?" and the obvious answer is "compared to men". There's 2 sexes, so each statement must inherently be a comparison or else it's worthless. The problem is, it can quickly will turn into a Men vs Women attackfest.

And since the comparisons are based on Men vs Women, it always treads on tricky grounds because people will of course get offended if they hear about things that were difficult for them but are described as being easier. Not saying it's right, but human nature seems to make those mental comparisons. If someone knows someone is rich and affluent, and hears them complaining about an issue, the first response is usually to ridicule that person. Even if the complaint has nothing to do with anything. Like "My previous maid was lazy" would get bad reactions in a crowd. It seems people only listen to complaints if the person's issues seem worse than their own. Weird, but you notice it.

Not really a point to my post, just saying how the world works I guess.

 

[Gestault]

This will sound a bit odd at first, but bear with me. There's something to be said about looking just below the surface with vitriol and mean-spirited attacks directed at women:

It should say something about cultural attitudes toward women that the structure of the most hateful language directed at them focuses on something as broad as gender. When you want to insult someone, the goal should be to highlight or associate someone with something that's in itself negative. When the almost universal basis for something like that amounts to "a woman is less than a man and I can hurt you," the intent behind those words are the painful part, not necessarily their specifics or how rational the idea itself is. The context of the language makes it true enough to those using and receiving it. The same way making up a swear-word doesn't have the same punch as calling someone by the more popular four-letter-words, some of the more spiteful words you can even say about a man are equally callbacks to femininity. The male equivalents are simply "duller" tools in the language.

This is why women are treated differently, and why the impact of that treatment must be understood to feel different that it would for men, even before presenting the facts of its frequency: Because that's the intent of the language and the behavior. When society has trained men to target and women to respond to gender-specific hate language, it is an unequal problem. Saying "well sometimes people make fun of me" as a counterpoint to that is an inane non-sequeter. Everyone's pain matters, but not in the context of this conversation with these ideas.

And you have a whole society informed by this formulation of language. You have whole generations who don't have to look at the faces of those they lash out at because of internet anonymity. You have whole communities who bask in the thrill of hateful language the same way a middle-schooler might bask in the naughtiness of smoking. They're handed the tools to harm with words by the culture around them. It should be further evidence of the problem when people are uncomfortable with a conversation where simply presenting common experiences of others as indications of a problem is unacceptable because the conversation is about the agency of someone else. "This conversation isn't about something I can personally relate to, therefore it doesn't matter" should elicit a greater reprimand than it already has.

 

[Neiteio]

The biggest problem with getting rid of this behavior - these people don't care how it affects other people. Trying to make them "feel bad" or shame them for it is not going to work. So you have to impose external penalties on them. In the context of LoL or a Blizzard game, or XBL, this is relatively easy, due to the costs associated with losing an account. When they're an anonymous twitter troll or a random passerby on the street, this is nearly impossible.

Is there any way to report abuse on Twitter? Any way to get a moderator of sorts to check into a situation and IP ban a user that is abusing someone? I imagine this wouldn't be very feasible due to the sheer volume of users on Twitter, and there is the risk someone could be framed (I.E. a tweet taken out of context if the mod doesn't do his or her due diligence). But still, it'd be better than nothing.