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[Neiteio]

I think Kilik's PMS comment is just saying that hormones are powerful forces, in both men and women, and they can alter the mind for a moment, resulting in impulsive behavior. It's not 1:1 but I think I get the gist of what he was trying to say.

Still, since we're all aware of this, we should try to be sensitive to others, so as to not leave anyone feeling minimized or objectified.

 

[Suzushiiro]

Also lol @ thinking the first amendment covers private forums...

If you'll actually read the second part of my post, I specifically stated that it doesn't:

While they certainly don't have the right to be heard by everyone who they want to hear the bullshit they spout (which is why you can choose to change the channel, block them on twitter, ban them from forums you own/moderate, etc,) if the choice ever comes between their right to freedom of speech and your right to freedom from speech that you don't like their rights are going to win.

I'm well aware that the first amendment doesn't dictate what private citizens can allow people to say in spaces they own/control, such as internet forums. It dictates the forms of speech that the government can and can't censor or otherwise regulate. What the guy I was responding to was saying was essentially "the government should ban people from the internet when they say things that offend me," which is blatantly against the first amendment.

 

[Jobbs]

I'm a gay man who has been asked out on more dates by women than gay men. Can we trade?

how about ANYONE hit on me EVER please?!?

 

[licktheenvelope]

I'm a gay man who has been asked out on more dates by women than gay men. Can we trade?.

Pfff... move up here to Vancouver, work on the Westside... you'll get hit on every other week no prob.

 

[JDSN]

still just a hormone when a woman has pms and bites off everyones head over nothing?

You're being dismissive of his statements and wouldnt it go both ways?

PMS is an illness that causes a disbalance and meets an expecific criteria that you are obviously so ignorant about, you and the other dude have no clue what you are talking about when talking about hormones giving them borderline pathological properties while the rest of us men are aparently able go on with ours lives while not raping or saying mean shit nor blaming it on a bodily function.

Not all women get PMS, not all men turn into dickwards because of normal quantities of an hormone.

 

[LiK]

how about ANYONE hit on me EVER please?!?

Hey big boy

 

[Krejlooc]

People here will ridicule you. But I understand what you mean. pms means pain. And under painful circumstances one would react different to everything than, let's say, being cheerful.

But to all those saying wow/awesome/etc to this, do you think we're not in the least affected in our testosterone levels when playing? This can cloud our normal behavior. Some will even say shit to get relief, even if they regret it afterwards.

The only problem is the notion that people have that words are so full of value coming from a disgruntled person. Do you pay much attention to what an alcoholic person rambling on the streets says? would you get seriously offended?

Even as a horny teen I didnt go around acting crass. We routinely ignore animal urges, our own sexuality is no different. The presence of intense levels of testosterone doesnt exuse marginalizing women.

Besides, we're discussing adults here, presumably. This argument stems from the belief that men have sexual urges that women do not, hence their crass comments. That just sound bunk to me for many reasons.

 

[Kinyou]

As I understand it, this person is going through the equivalent of puberty. Adolescent youths go through the same thing. It dies down eventually, though. I am not constantly aroused like I was when I was 14. I can essentially turn it off and on at will in adult hood.

I don't think that really goes for everyone though. Some might not ever really get out of this phase and can just turn it off at will. They can just try to ignore it

I thought this bit by Louis C.K. was sort of insightful

"You get to have sexual fantasies, I have to have sexual fantasies"

 

[John Rabbit]

PMS is an illness that causes a disbalance and meets an expecific criteria that you are obviously so ignorant about, you and the other dude have no clue what you are talking about when talking about hormones giving them borderline pathological properties

man i REALLY hope English is not your first language because otherwise what am I even reading.

 

[Suzushiiro]

Some new Internet bullying laws are at least a step in the right direction... Especially to protect young people you read some of these stories and it blows your mind how insecure people are, devoting this much time to harassing other people.

Any law against internet bullying would be shot down by a court instantaneously. You can't write a law banning people from being hateful asshats that can't also be twisted to censor other forms of speech, such as (and most importantly) criticism of the government.

More importantly, the Striesand effect kind of applies here- any attempt to censor this kind of stuff is just going to encourage people to do it more out of spite.

 

[alstein]

As someone who has friends in the industry who has suffered from discimination, it's frustrating as hell to see, and it's obviously more frustrating for them in ways I can't imagine.

That said, one has to temper their feelings some when there's honest disagreement. You have the temptation to want everything now as it should be, but sometimes rushing can swing things the other way. I've seen folks in the industry who try to do the right thing (and even succeed at it) get pilloried at times.

It just sucks things can't get better faster and more fairly to all.

I wish things were like fantasy where miracles and wishes would solve these things , but it's a long hard slog that never ends fully.

As I understand it, this person is going through the equivalent of puberty. Adolescent youths go through the same thing. It dies down eventually, though. I am not constantly aroused like I was when I was 14. I can essentially turn it off and on at will in adult hood.

From my trans friends who have taken hormones, it really is like a 2nd puberty to them, so I can sorta vouch for this, at least in their cases.

 

[AZUMIKE]

It's not super difficult. On GAF, discuss things as if you were in a real-life conversation with acquaintances/ people you don't know particularly well, which includes women. (Because, well, you are.)

Would you, in a real-life conversation including women you don't know particularly well, look at a passing woman and say "OMG would totally bang! Amirite? Fist bumps all around!" Probably not, right? Well then also don't do it on GAF. Pretty simple.

This seems to bring up a rather fundamental issue. Some people might actually say in response, "Why not, aren't I free to express myself"? Lol. Social norms might normally tell us that one should not blatantly (or covertly for that matter) disrespect a woman, under any circumstance. I for one think that there are reasons behind those norms, and thus they're to be respected. However, because one can disagree with that perspective, and have the widespread view that the internet is a wild wild West, things are said without any check or proper reason. In sum, we need to understand why jeering/mocking/disrespecting/threating woman (or anyone) is such a serious problem. This means blatantly (i.e public forums), and perhaps more importantly, covertly (one's way of thinking).

And Cyan, as you mentioned, we're largely dealing with acquaintances on GAF. I think it has to be clearly articulated why one shouldn't say those things to a passing person (or in our context a fellow GAF member). The word "respect" often is an answer, but it lacks any real meaning if one doesn't understand the weight of that word.

Also, I want to echo the mods great work with this thread. Been following this thread, and I'm glad to see that this issue being discussed with care.

 

[ishibear]

Any law against internet bullying would be shot down by a court instantaneously. You can't write a law banning people from being hateful asshats that can't also be twisted to censor other forms of speech, such as (and most importantly) criticism of the government.

More importantly, the Striesand effect kind of applies here- any attempt to censor this kind of stuff is just going to encourage people to do it more out of spite.

What are you implying?

 

[jackal27]

I love/hate this thread so much. But at least I'm learning things I suppose. I'll just say that blaming crappy behavior on testosterone is the crappiest of behavior.

 

[JDSN]

how about ANYONE hit on me EVER please?!?

You need to tell girls and dudes something like "Say girl, im the dude making Ghost Song"....surely that will get you mad tail.

 

[Jobbs]

PMS is an illness that causes a disbalance and meets an expecific criteria that you are obviously so ignorant about, you and the other dude have no clue what you are talking about when talking about hormones giving them borderline pathological properties while the rest of us men are aparently able go on with ours lives while not raping or saying mean shit nor blaming it on a bodily function.

Not all women get PMS, not all men turn into dickwards because of normal quantities of an hormone.

I'm tired of men talking about women's bodies and PMS like they know anything. I'm a man and I don't know anything except that this caricature of the woman turning into a demon once a month has really no consistency with my experiences based on my 32 years on the planet.

 

[besada]

how about ANYONE hit on me EVER please?!?

Hey there, Jobbs. Your gelatinous covering is shimmering very moistly today.

 

[enoki]

This ad cycles through NeoGAF's front page regularly.

It's not the first of its kind, nor will it be the last, but its just one representation of women not always being welcome "in the club" (unless they're set pieces for the game). The image is actually pretty tame compared to similar ads for Wartune and Scarlet Blade, so why is this EPIC FANTASY GAME "Men Only", and why is it allowed here?

 

[Suzushiiro]

What are you implying?

I'm implying exactly what I said- if people try to make this sort of stuff outright illegal, it's just going to encourage the people who do it, because now they're not just being hateful asshats anymore, they're Sticking It To The Man and righteously fighting back against censorship.

 

[Glass Shark]

This ad cycles through NeoGAF's front page regularly.

It's not the first of its kind, nor will it be the last, but its just one representation of women not always being welcome "in the club" (unless they're set pieces for the game). The image is actually pretty tame compared to similar ads for Wartune and Scarlet Blade, so why is this EPIC FANTASY GAME "Men Only", and why is it allowed here?

Speaking as a website owner, it is next to impossible to get these kinds of ads to stop running on your site when using the type of third-party ad networks that NeoGAF and many other sites use. Even if you do manage to kill one, others will pop up in their place immediately.

Also, a lot of the ads shown are probably based off of the user's browsing habits, so...

 

[Neiteio]

Hey there, Jobbs. Your gelatinous covering is shimmering very moistly today.

*wipes sweat from his brow and checks the thermostat*

That's curious, it still says it's room temperature in here...

At any rate, I think in general people really, really, REALLY underestimate the effects their words can have on others. I'm sure I've done this myself. You can make someone literally ill with insecurity and anxiety. A sort of inescapable mental torture. I don't want to be responsible for doing that to someone. :-\

 

[Beefy]

This ad cycles through NeoGAF's front page regularly.

It's not the first of its kind, nor will it be the last, but its just one representation of women not always being welcome "in the club" (unless they're set pieces for the game). The image is actually pretty tame compared to similar ads for Wartune and Scarlet Blade, so why is this EPIC FANTASY GAME "Men Only", and why is it allowed here?

Agreed.

 

[besada]

This ad cycles through NeoGAF's front page regularly.

It's not the first of its kind, nor will it be the last, but its just one representation of women not always being welcome "in the club" (unless they're set pieces for the game). The image is actually pretty tame compared to similar ads for Wartune and Scarlet Blade, so why is this EPIC FANTASY GAME "Men Only", and why is it allowed here?

I'm not sue what that has to do with the topic of this thread, but if you have a concern regarding the ads, please submit an email to support@neogaf.com, or contact a moderator via PM.

 

[Jobbs]

Hey there, Jobbs. Your gelatinous covering is shimmering very moistly today.

you're getting me wetter.

 

[ishibear]

I'm implying exactly what I said- if people try to make this sort of stuff outright illegal, it's just going to encourage the people who do it, because now they're not just being hateful asshats anymore, they're Sticking It To The Man and righteously fighting back against censorship.

You know, when I see comments like this, I wonder is this a threat.

 

[Mesoian]

This ad cycles through NeoGAF's front page regularly.

It's not the first of its kind, nor will it be the last, but its just one representation of women not always being welcome "in the club" (unless they're set pieces for the game). The image is actually pretty tame compared to similar ads for Wartune and Scarlet Blade, so why is this EPIC FANTASY GAME "Men Only", and why is it allowed here?

Is that a tattoo that is attempting to rip itself from the arm it's been inked on?

 

[leadbelly]

The fuck does that even mean?

Well, it's actually a really weird misinterpretation of a John Lennon quote/song. I did think that was really ironic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5lMxWWK218

 

[Beefy]

you're getting me wetter.

Your font is giving off a sexaul vibe you know.

 

[Fehyd]

Though it's not yet ideal, NeoGAF is significantly better than less moderated forums out there. The mods do a good job keeping things on a higher level than many other forums. It is actually impressive considering how big NeoGAF is.

So I always find myself coming back because it's so much worse out there. NeoGAF is the only forum where I've "admitted" to being female. I avoid anything related to gender elsewhere.

But there is always room for improvement.

Now see, there's a flip side as well, for some men (I'm usually included in this). If there's a debate on sexism or the like, some men refuse to comment or talk at all, for fear of being demonized. I only really participate in discussion on GAF because I know I'm not going to get killed for my opinion, so long as I'm concise, polite, and reasonable. Many men, instead of discussing, withdraw.

While this topic is primarily "harassment of women in the video game industry" its a much broader problem, and I think its one that has to be met with a push from both genders, on multiple fronts. Instead of framing the argument "Men, stop being sexist!", it would be better framed as "Everyone, stop being sexist!" otherwise it comes across as a direct attack on a single gender. Instead of working to alleviate issues that hurt both genders (maybe one moreso than the other), its immediately turned into an adversarial affair.

I guess the thing is, we need to address the problem, unilaterally. The number of times I've seen a guy call out another guy for calling someone a "fag" has been quite a few. Conversely, the number of times I've seen a woman laugh and mock someone after seeing the above scenario are more than I would like.

 

[JDSN]

man i REALLY hope English is not your first language because otherwise what am I even reading.

You can ask the people that quoted me, they seem to have a better grasp of english than you and me.

 

[licktheenvelope]

This'll be the last time I say this because obviously I'm not getting anywhere, but men do not harass women more often because they have more testosterone. It's from a cultural environment of being able to get away with those kinds of comments and society tolerating that kind of behavior in many places.

If you mean 'men don't harass women more than women harass men, sexually, because of hormones' I disagree.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Let's pretend we haven't seen it here.

You see it everywhere. Attractive men and women have it easier in all aspects of life. We just subconsciously like and assume better about their abilities and prefer them at basically everything.

Would be interesting to actually have solid numbers if it had a disproportionate effect for women in certain industries such as video games, though.

 

[The Librarian]

Now see, there's a flip side as well, for some men (I'm usually included in this). If there's a debate on sexism or the like, some men refuse to comment or talk at all, for fear of being demonized. I only really participate in discussion on GAF because I know I'm not going to get killed for my opinion, so long as I'm concise, polite, and reasonable. Many men, instead of discussing, withdraw.

While this topic is primarily "harassment of women in the video game industry" its a much broader problem, and I think its one that has to be met with a push from both genders, on multiple fronts. Instead of framing the argument "Men, stop being sexist!", it would be better framed as "Everyone, stop being sexist!" otherwise it comes across as a direct attack on a single gender. Instead of working to alleviate issues that hurt both genders (maybe one moreso than the other), its immediately turned into an adversarial affair.

I guess the thing is, we need to address the problem, unilaterally. The number of times I've seen a guy call out another guy for calling someone a "fag" has been quite a few. Conversely, the number of times I've seen a woman laugh and mock someone after seeing the above scenario are more than I would like.

But, see, the topic of harassment men receive in the industry isn't the topic of this thread. This is about women. There's nothing preventing you or anyone else on NeoGAF from creating a thread discussing harassment men receive in the videogame industry or at large.

 

[enoki]

I'm nto sutre what that has to do with the topic of this thread, but if you have a concern regarding the ads, please submit an email to support@neogaf.com, or contact a moderator via PM.

Thanks for your response! I'll consider sending out a support email.

I think it's incredibly important to the topic, as the original post and replies have mentioned the "boy's club" mentality, the idea that women aren't necessarily "welcome" in all communities. I didn't mean for it to seem as though I was throwing GAF under the bus, but I did happen to save this image from GAF and thought it was relevant information to the topic. There are many posts asking "what can we do?" and this is one example of a game using "Men Only" for clicks.

 

[besada]

Thanks for your response! I'll consider sending out a support email.

I agree that it's fairly heinous, by the way. But, given that no one here has the power to do anything about it, I can't see it doing anything other than derailing the discussion. The email I listed goes to the owner of GAF, and he CAN do something.

 

[QisTopTier]

If our gay or female community responds to pictures of men by discussing the intimate details of how they want to fuck him, or how much of his feces they'll eat (not making that up), I'll gladly ban them, too.

Does this mean I don't have to sit through that watermellon gif anymore?

 

[Neiteio]

If you mean 'men don't harass women more than women harass men, sexually, because of hormones' I disagree.

Dax is right that the greater problem lies in our culture. From a young age women are groomed by society to feel they should try to please men. I know many women legitimately love makeup, but some couldn't leave the house without putting on their "face." They live in a world where tits are all over billboards, and women slink around half-naked at half-time, and your average primetime sitcom pairs a male slob with a stunning supermodel. All of this conditions men to think women are objects while conditioning women to just shut up and take it. It's unfortunate and needs to change, and bringing attention to the issue is one way to do so.

 

[jackal27]

But, see, the topic of harassment men receive in the industry isn't the topic of this thread. This is about women. There's nothing preventing you or anyone else on NeoGAF from creating a thread discussing harassment men receive in the videogame industry or at large.

Agreed. Objectification of people at large is real and terrible, but there is also a tendency in men (myself included) to try and make stuff like this about us and we need to not do that. My wife pointed this out to me a while back and it's been really hard to struggle with, but I'm trying.

 

[Gestault]

There was that interesting bit on This American Life about a transman who was currently in transition and receiving his first, very high, testosterone dosage. It does seems to have changed his sexuality a lot


http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/220/transcript

Unfortunately seem many studies on the subject inconclusive due to many outside factors. Many coming from society like you already mentioned.

I don't mean to say that it drives men into blind sex machines, but there does seem to be an inherent difference between female and male sexuality.

Any disruption of hormones (or physiological systems in general) has dramatic effects on this exact range of impulses, but that disruption or shift isn't characteristic of the "normal" system. This would be like someone basing their broader concepts of gender on looking at the teenage years of either gender while in the thralls of puberty. I'd actually seen this when it came up on my RSS feed, and while it was interesting, I had the same sort of misgivings about how the events were being interpreted.

 

[Gbraga]

I mean it's one thing to call Samus, Peach, Zelda etc a waifu and it's easier to accept. But some others? Namely ones with exaggerated breasts, or their scantily clad and clearly look like a 7~13 year old kid... that's disturbing.

I was thinking more about Persona characters. Are women on GAF feeling excluded from participating in Persona threads because of the waifu talk?

At least the way I see it, it really isn't about sexualizing underage girls in Persona's case, it has more to do with the romance option you identify more with and find cuter or whatever, I've always seen it as harmless fun, but if it's making it so people can't be a part of the community, maybe we should stop, as much as it breaks my heart to not talk about best girl and this kind of silly shit.

 

[Harlequin]

Now see, there's a flip side as well, for some men (I'm usually included in this). If there's a debate on sexism or the like, some men refuse to comment or talk at all, for fear of being demonized. I only really participate in discussion on GAF because I know I'm not going to get killed for my opinion, so long as I'm concise, polite, and reasonable. Many men, instead of discussing, withdraw.

This is what I do on GAF, actually. I once took part in a gender/sexism discussion on here, voiced an unpopular opinion in a polite and civil way (and I even went to great lengths explaining where that opinion came from) and some moderator who obviously did not understand my posts and was way too trigger-happy accused me of saying weird shit I had never even said and banned me for civilly voicing an unpopular opinion. (Multiple email complaints I subsequently sent were blatantly ignored.) So yeah, I'm not gonna join into these sorts of discussions on GAF anymore and I don't feel like this is a safe, free or open-minded environment to discuss these topics.

 

[enoki]

Speaking as a website owner, it is next to impossible to get these kinds of ads to stop running on your site when using the type of third-party ad networks that NeoGAF and many other sites use. Even if you do manage to kill one, others will pop up in their place immediately.

Also, a lot of the ads shown are probably based off of the user's browsing habits, so...

I also admin a website, and I understand that it's (somewhat) difficult to remove these kinds of ads. I should have left out that I saved the ad from GAF, because I have seen these ads elsewhere and that wasn't meant to be the focus of my post. Scarlet Blade's "She has no safe word" ad was a hot topic for awhile in other communities.

My browsing history consists of GAF and video game/programming communities and I do my absolute best to protect myself from ad trackers. If you'd like to more directly state that I'm seeing this ad because of the mass amounts of colorful content I consume, please be my guest.

I agree that it's fairly heinous, by the way. But, given that no one here has the power to do anything about it, I can't see it doing anything other than derailing the discussion. The email I listed goes to the owner of GAF, and he CAN do something.

I appreciate it.

 

[besada]

This is what I do on GAF, actually. I once took part in a gender/sexism discussion on here, voiced an unpopular opinion in a polite and civil way (and I even went to great lengths explaining where that opinion came from) and some moderator who obviously did not understand my posts and was way too trigger-happy accused me of saying weird shit I had never even said and banned me for civilly voicing an unpopular opinion. (Multiple email complaints I subsequently sent were blatantly ignored.) So yeah, I'm not gonna join into these sorts of discussions on GAF anymore and I don't feel like this is a safe, free or open-minded environment to discuss these topics.

This is, by the way, classic textbook moderation whining. Incredibly bannable.

 

[Fehyd]

But, see, the topic of harassment men receive in the industry isn't the topic of this thread. This is about women. There's nothing preventing you or anyone else on NeoGAF from creating a thread discussing harassment men receive in the videogame industry or at large.

The problem doesn't only affect women though. Its like trying to fix a broken vase with half the pieces.

The fact that this thread is only about the harassment that women receive, and not harassment in the games industry in general is part of the problem, because its not a gendered problem.

If we're solving "harassment" in general, we're going to solve something that affects everyone. If we're solving "women's only harassment" it can alienate men from the cause.

All I'm saying, is unilaterally there'd be a lot less pushback regaqrding the industry if it was fixated on all genders.

 

[Suzushiiro]

You know, when I see comments like this, I wonder is this a threat.

"A threat" implies I would be one of the people doing it. I wouldn't be. It's a prediction based on how I've seen these things go in the past and what I know of human nature. Shitty, stupid ideas and opinions are killed by discussions/arguments and the passing of time, not by the use of force (be it censorship or outright violence)- that just makes them stronger.

 

[ReignofSparrows]

I don't want to be a major party pooper but if we're just talking about sexual advances women will always be "more harassed" than men...

As i've pointed out in this type of conversation before, i'm a male and i've been 'hit on' by more gay men than straight women in my life, by a large margine.

Difference is in the hormone make-up of the sexes.

I have a real issue with this type of explanation because, regardless of it's scientific veracity, it completely ignores all context. Let's just assume your assertion is accurate, but let's also assume that men are predisposed to be more physically aggressive and violent due to hormonal influences as well. Fair enough, right? Well, men don't get away with threatening other men in the workplace on a massive scale. "Boys being boys" in the context of workplace violence and harassment really only applies when the boys aren't the ones affected. When it comes to violence, men have to rightly modify their behavior and not act like shitheads regardless of hormonal influences, which we are perfectly fine with. But when it comes to harassment of women, then we have to talk about biology and urges and act like it's an inevitability.

 

[SenorArdilla]

I was thinking more about Persona characters. Are women on GAF feeling excluded from participating in Persona threads because of the waifu talk?

At least the way I see it, it really isn't about sexualizing underage girls in Persona's case, it has more to do with the romance option you identify more with and find cuter or whatever, I've always seen it as harmless fun, but if it's making it so people can't be a part of the community, maybe we should stop, as much as it breaks my heart to not talk about best girl and this kind of silly shit.

I think this is one of the major hurdles that has to be jumped if there's to be any change to the game industry. Video games aren't dying yet but the lack of any new blood should be an indicator of bigger issues to come.

 

[Gbraga]

how about ANYONE hit on me EVER please?!?

Your game is hot

 

[BetaTeaser]

Pretty terrible.

Much of what I face in my career as a gay man.

 

[ICKE]

ink it's incredibly important to the topic, as the original post and replies have mentioned the "boy's club" mentality, the idea that women aren't necessarily "welcome" in all communities.

I really don't see how publishers targeting males with sexy pictures is relevant when the discussion should be about females receiving abuse and harassment. Unless you equate the two and at that point we tend to see blurred lines.

See the problem in these discussion often is that someone writes an article about a specific case of abuse (be it in the fighting game community or in the world of Counter Strike) and suddenly we are talking about society as a whole, feminism, how women are living in a world of billboards and constant conditioning. At that point there is just animosity all around, hateful responses, backlash and eventually nothing substantive happens within the gaming community. It's the same shit over and over again.

I'm going to have to eject now before I get banned.