Shifa hospital and Al Shati refugee camp attacked by IDF

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BTW the "Do you pee in the shower" thread has twice as many replies as this thread. But why do we care so much!?!?!?
 
markot said:
Except people would be, the world over, more sympathetic to their cause. And that actually matters. Non violence actually works much better then randomly shootin rockets into a country hoping to hit an errant Jew or two.

Sadly the Palestinians are now two facitons ruling two different areas. Pretty much perfect from an opponents point of view.
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markot said:
Nothing you just said negates what I said, nor is there any indication that I did not know what you said.
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Your argument is undercut by the past, so it's understandable if folks assumed you did not know about it. It might be helpful if you try to square them.
 
I think the extent of Israelis lying and propaganda machine really intensifies the anger people feel and I am right there with them.

It's bad enough you kill a ton of civilians as a supposed enlightened democracy but then you go on media blitzes lying and spewing propaganda to cover up atrocities and it just makes it that much worse.
 
Druz said:
So many Hama's apologists it's scary. Can someone at least read this?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/post_8056_b_5602701.html
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If Israel wanted to kill civilians, it is terrible at it. ISIS killed more civilians in two days (700 plus) than Israel has in two weeks. Imagine if ISIS or Hamas had Israel's weapons, army, air force, US support, and nuclear arsenal. Their enemies would've been annihilated long ago. If Israel truly wanted to destroy Gaza, it could do so within a day, right from the air. Why carry out a more painful, expensive ground incursion that risks the lives of its soldiers?
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Israel is over a thousand now. ISIS need to step up their game.
 
Antiwhippy said:
There's a difference between supporting Palestinians and supporting hamas.
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Ain't that the truth. Hamas is a terrorist organization. But even with Fatah and a secular Government in the West Bank, I feel the current admin of Israel doesn't care about that and is only to happy to lump the actions of terrorist in the Gaza Strip to all Palestinians.
 
Toxi said:
What part did they play? The IDF lied about their involvement in bombing the hospital and refugee camp.
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I'm not speaking on any one event, but the conflict in its entirety. It's an honest question. Should Hamas hold any responsibility when it comes to Palestinian bloodshed?
 
Druz said:
So many Hama's apologists it's scary. Can someone at least read this?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/post_8056_b_5602701.html
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Since when did criticizing Israel's lack of accountability, methods and actions mean you support Hamas?? I'm genuinely curious how you concluded that?

As for your article it is apologist trash. It's been discussed at length in the other thread and I chimed in myself. For one the idea of human shielding and his evidence was complete bullshit. The article deliberately fails to inform the reader that schools those rockets were found in were abandoned and he conflates a youtube video discussing Palestinian citizens wanting to protect their homes and stand their ground to human shielding.

It's dishonest tripe.
 
ramuh said:
Ain't that the truth. Hamas is a terrorist organization. But even with Fatah and a secular Government in the West Bank, I feel the current admin of Israel doesn't care about that and is only to happy to lump the actions of terrorist in the Gaza Strip to all Palestinians.
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Are they? Not according to the UN. I think this is another label to strengthen Israel's position like that bullshit about human shields. Sure, they still do rocket attacks, but then so does the IDF. They don't do suicide bombings anymore, don't use human shields... why do we take it as red that they're terrorists? It certainly makes it easier to condemn their point of view.
 
zer0blivion said:
http://www.thenation.com/article/180783/five-israeli-talking-points-gaza-debunked
Five Israeli Talking Points on Gaza—Debunked
Israel claims that it is merely exercising its right to self-defense and that Gaza is no longer occupied. Here’s what you need to know about these talking points and more.
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The precarious and unstable conditions in the Gaza Strip from which Palestinians suffer are Israel’s responsibility. Israel argues that it can invoke the right to self-defense under international law as defined in Article 51 of the UN Charter. The International Court of Justice, however, rejected this faulty legal interpretation in its 2004 Advisory Opinion.
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Their link to this ICJ advisory opinion does not work but I think it's this one: http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/index.php?pr=71&code=mwp&p1=3&p2=4&p3=6

It does not mention article 51 or rocket fire in it and deals with the construction of the wall around East Jerusalem. Nowhere does it say anything about Israel's right (or no right) of self-defense.

These are all the other 2004 cases: http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/index.php?p1=3&p2=5&p3=-1&y=2004
 
AIght how about this plan. Hamas completely dismantles, give up rockets, the Unity Government takes control of both Gaza and West Bank, UN on the borders, crossing, and in the city. So if there is a rocket attack they can work with PLO to apprehend suspects that committed terrorism against another sovereign nation. Oh and since it's under UN auspices give the right of access to the Sea back to the Palestine. But make sure the UN has teeth to clamp down on illicit smuggling of weapons.

Oh and make East Jerusalem an UN-run City. At least for the time being.
 
Isn't it pretty easy to shield yourself and hide in the Palestinian populace when you're basically all confined to a ridiculously small zone? Like where else would they manage to be? In all that vast land that doesn't exist for them anymore?
 
So many people saying if hamas didnt do this then Israel wouldnt be doing that. Now if someone came into my house tried to demolish it, or oppress me in any shape or form theres only a matter of time you reach your breaking point and do something about it, you can push all you want but one day they will push back. If someone took over the US slowly and they decided to fight back against oppression would we label them as terrorist as well? nope because it's 'murica. Canada and US European settlers were the Israelis of the present, we took the Aboriginals/Native Americans land away either with force or oppression and forced assimilation. Did they fight back, of course and some points thats how some provinces were made instead of becoming territories. however if they fought back today I assume we would label them the same as the Palestinians right? right......
 
zer0blivion said:
When IDF or the Israeli government says "Hamas" they are talking about every single person who lives in Gaza.
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I think it more like saying 'commies' during the red scare in the US. They can be anywhere and anyone, forcing the noble IDF to blow up children in a park.
 
GhaleonEB said:
Your argument is undercut by the past, so it's understandable if folks assumed you did not know about it. It might be helpful if you try to square them.
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What past? The Palestinians have always been using violence. I cant blame them for most of that. But when you hit your head against the wall and keep losing out, you have to change tactics, or just not expect anything to change.

Hamas has spent millions setting up and buying missiles to fire at Israel indiscriminately. It has achieved nothing. At all. Other then Israel having a great excuse to do... what its doing, and what it did in the past.

Israel can always point at Hamas and co now.

What can seriously be achieved through violence? I think thats a good question for both sides. Israel wont be safer after this, just like it wasnt before. What has violence given the Palestinians?

Ghandi didnt use non violence because he was a pacifist, it was a tactic, he knew it would be much harder for the british to repress them.

The exact same situation exists here. As long as Hamas keeps fighting, Israel has an excuse to ignore peace.

Violence will never bring the Palestinians closer to a two state solution, because it will only enable those who want violence on the Israeli side. In essence, both violent sides need each other to feed each other. Each rocket landing in Israel grants their side legitimacy. Each civillian killed in Gaza grants the Hamas fighters more legitimacy.

And in the end? The innocents suffer, as always, as pawns between two sides that care very little for them. And the problem will always remain, one side has to be 'right' and the other 'wrong'. When they are both right and wrong.
 
JK-Money said:
So many people saying if hamas didnt do this then Israel wouldnt be doing that. Now if someone came into my house tried to demolish it, or oppress me in any shape or form theres only a matter of time you reach your breaking point and do something about it, you can push all you want but one day they will push back. If someone took over the US slowly and they decided to fight back against oppression would we label them as terrorist as well? nope because it's 'murica. Canada and US European settlers were the Israelis of the present, we took the Aboriginals/Native Americans land away either with force or oppression and forced assimilation. Did they fight back, of course and some points thats how some provinces were made instead of becoming territories. however if they fought back today I assume we would label them the same as the Palestinians right? right......
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I hate Hamas but at the same time I agree. It's the classic Israel has a right to defend itself but the Palestinians don't dichotomy. Israel can continue to encroach on land in the West Bank with settlements but any push back is unjustified but if Israel were to push for a military incursion in response it would be.
 
Aaron said:
Are they? Not according to the UN. I think this is another label to strengthen Israel's position like that bullshit about human shields. Sure, they still do rocket attacks, but then so does the IDF. They don't do suicide bombings anymore, don't use human shields... why do we take it as red that they're terrorists? It certainly makes it easier to condemn their point of view.
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Your right they don't do suicide bombings.. at least not in the last 6 years or so (last claimed one was in 2008). I doubt that is enough time to get off a blacklist. It's listed as a terrorist organization by the US EU and a host of other countries. Definitely not a "label".
 
markot said:
What past? The Palestinians have always been using violence. I cant blame them for most of that. But when you hit your head against the wall and keep losing out, you have to change tactics, or just not expect anything to change.

Hamas has spent millions setting up and buying missiles to fire at Israel indiscriminately. It has achieved nothing. At all. Other then Israel having a great excuse to do... what its doing, and what it did in the past.
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So you're just going to completely ignore the West Bank, and how the lack of resistance there has led to more settlements from Israel, more death, and more destruction? So you're saying they should submit to dying off slowly instead of trying to change their fate?

ramuh said:
Your right they don't do suicide bombings.. at least not in the last 6 years or so (last claimed one was in 2008). I doubt that is enough time to get off a blacklist. It's listed as a terrorist organization by the US EU and a host of other countries. Definitely not a "label".
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Hamas is listed because Israel wants them to be framed as terrorists, especially in the US and the post 9/11 mentality.
 
markot said:
What past? The Palestinians have always been using violence. I cant blame them for most of that. But when you hit your head against the wall and keep losing out, you have to change tactics, or just not expect anything to change.

Hamas has spent millions setting up and buying missiles to fire at Israel indiscriminately. It has achieved nothing. At all. Other then Israel having a great excuse to do... what its doing, and what it did in the past.

Israel can always point at Hamas and co now.

What can seriously be achieved through violence? I think thats a good question for both sides. Israel wont be safer after this, just like it wasnt before. What has violence given the Palestinians?

Ghandi didnt use non violence because he was a pacifist, it was a tactic, he knew it would be much harder for the british to repress them.

The exact same situation exists here. As long as Hamas keeps fighting, Israel has an excuse to ignore peace.

Violence will never bring the Palestinians closer to a two state solution, because it will only enable those who want violence on the Israeli side. In essence, both violent sides need each other to feed each other. Each rocket landing in Israel grants their side legitimacy. Each civillian killed in Gaza grants the Hamas fighters more legitimacy.

And in the end? The innocents suffer, as always, as pawns between two sides that care very little for them. And the problem will always remain, one side has to be 'right' and the other 'wrong'. When they are both right and wrong.
Click to expand...

The West Bank cooperates with Israel and they are rewarded with continued occupation, theft of land, theft of water...

Israel isn't interested in peace. If you can't see that you're not looking closely enough.
 
markot said:
What past? The Palestinians have always been using violence. I cant blame them for most of that. But when you hit your head against the wall and keep losing out, you have to change tactics, or just not expect anything to change.

Hamas has spent millions setting up and buying missiles to fire at Israel indiscriminately. It has achieved nothing. At all. Other then Israel having a great excuse to do... what its doing, and what it did in the past.

Israel can always point at Hamas and co now.

What can seriously be achieved through violence? I think thats a good question for both sides. Israel wont be safer after this, just like it wasnt before. What has violence given the Palestinians?

Ghandi didnt use non violence because he was a pacifist, it was a tactic, he knew it would be much harder for the british to repress them.

The exact same situation exists here. As long as Hamas keeps fighting, Israel has an excuse to ignore peace.

Violence will never bring the Palestinians closer to a two state solution, because it will only enable those who want violence on the Israeli side. In essence, both violent sides need each other to feed each other. Each rocket landing in Israel grants their side legitimacy. Each civillian killed in Gaza grants the Hamas fighters more legitimacy.

And in the end? The innocents suffer, as always, as pawns between two sides that care very little for them. And the problem will always remain, one side has to be 'right' and the other 'wrong'. When they are both right and wrong.
Click to expand...

And on the other side of that argument Abbas and the West Bank has remained relatively peaceful and all they have gotten out of it is Israeli undermining and more settlements. And what protests they have had in reaction to the recent bloodshed has resulted in death.
 
SyenceLabb said:
I'm not speaking on any one event, but the conflict in its entirety. It's an honest question. Should Hamas hold any responsibility when it comes to Palestinian bloodshed?
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They hold some responsibility because they escalate the conflict through their violence, but they're not the ones shooting tank shells at Gaza's hospitals.

When the IDF kills a dozen children, that's blood on their hands. They do not get to decide what responsibility Hamas has. They do not get to deny their involvement.
 
m_shortpants said:
The West Bank cooperates with Israel and they are rewarded with continued occupation, theft of land, theft of water...

Israel isn't interested in peace. If you can't see that you're not looking closely enough.
Click to expand...

Jonm1010 said:
And on the other side of that argument Abbas and the West Bank has remained relatively peaceful and all they have gotten out of it is Israeli undermining and more settlements. And what protests they have had in reaction to the recent bloodshed has resulted in death.
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Totally correct. The current Admin of Israel isn't interested in a "complete peace" as it doesn't fit their narrative. The Fatah Government in the West Bank is the most level headed of them all. I wish the US would do more to promote that secular Government.
 
markot said:
Its not genocide.
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If you really think the IDF hit the shelter, school and camp by accident you are very naive.
What the IDF/Israel is doing is a prime example of "Terror Bombing" or "Teach em a lesson"-bombing. Goal is breaking the will of an entire country and not only it's army.

The Nazi regime's Luftwaffe did it countless times(I even think they came up with the idea).
The allies did it in WW2 (prime example is the Dresden Bombing in 1945).
The US Army did it in Hiroshima/Nagasaki and Vietnam.
 
VVP0qFh.png

https://twitter.com/DrBasselAbuward/status/493997095016099843
:(
 
Aaron said:
So you're just going to completely ignore the West Bank, and how the lack of resistance there has led to more settlements from Israel, more death, and more destruction? So you're saying they should submit to dying off slowly instead of trying to change their fate?
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Im not ignoring it, as ive said, Gaza gives them an excuse to largely ignore it, and largely takes allllllll the attention away from the actual peace process. Israel can basically do as it pleases as long as it can pretend its 'under attack'. And rockets falling from the sky tend to be pretty convincing.

But look at what the PA is doing? It almost got a seat in the UN, admittedly a small step, but its about those small steps. What has Hamas done? Nothing but muddy the water. Peace wont come from the barrel of a gun when the other side has more of them, and bigger ones.

If you want to actually isolate Israel and its obstinantce in the peace process, I agree that they are the main problem in the whole thing, expecting to keep settlements... etc... but Hamas and violence give them the cover they need.

I think the Abbas said it before to Hamas recently 'what do you hope to achieve?' (I saw it in a media report)

Israel is the master of distraction, and violence the ultimate distraction, I honestly doubt Hamas wants peace, and that serves Israel greatly.
 
Jonm1010 said:
I hate Hamas but at the same time I agree. It's the classic Israel has a right to defend itself but the Palestinians don't dichotomy. Israel can continue to encroach on land in the West Bank with settlements but any push back is unjustified but if Israel were to push for a military incursion in response it would be.
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Exaclty in no way shape or form do i condone what hammas has done in present of past (granted I do not know much about hamas, if any of you have good info about them hook me up) I dont defend hamas i defend the people of Palestine. On every news channel Israeli people are seen saying "we have the right to defend ourselves", thats like the classic bully in school who picks on everyone and when one time when someone decides to fight back and kick his/her ass they say "well i defended myself, see he is REALLY the aggressor not me" and everyone shrugs it off like theirs no issue. When israel does things like this it's totally tolerable however when there is push back its "omg look at the Palestinian people they are terrorist they are bad news, they are aggressors my god look at them no one trust them", ya sure let them just sit there an continue to take it up the ass then. Im also tired of people sticking up for the Palestinian people but not in that way. You stick up for Israel "good for you thumbs up, thats awesome pat you on the back", you say one thing on social media about "free Palestinians or stop the killings etc." immediately you are labelled as being a Hamas supporter and apparently also labelled as an Islamic extremist. However your not a bad person for sticking up for an organisation and a people who have killed around 600-700 civilians. Thats fine though and in the end I am the one that looks crazy right?
 
markot said:
Im just glad the world is up in arms about this. It reminds me of all thost protests oustide of Sudanese embassies when they were killing hundreds of thousands of innocent muslims. Or when the Turks were ethnically cleansing Kurds.... or the dozens of other examples.

Whatever.
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You sound like a vile human being. Your only intent is to absolve Israel of indiscriminately killing hundreds of innocent children and bombing hospitals by lying and pointing fingers at others.
 
Vast. said:
You sound like a vile human being. Your only intent is to absolve Israel of indiscriminately killing hundreds of innocent children and bombing hospitals by lying and pointing fingers at others. How do you even live with yourself?
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Where did I lie? And that wasnt my point, nice try. I care about shit that happens in the world. I just dont see why this deserves more attention then the other horrible shit that goes almost under the radar by the same people screaming the most.
 
markot said:
Where did I lie? And that wasnt my point, nice try. I care about shit that happens in the world. I just dont see why this deserves more attention then the other horrible shit that goes almost under the radar by the same people screaming the most.
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Then please ask someone to make a thread about that shit instead of using it as a shield to deflect criticism from Israel.
 
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