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[Good Job Bob]

maybe just recognize the HISTORY and EXPERIENCE of women in these situations and save your erection for a CONTEXT where women not only expect but ENCOURAGE your attention? if the girl on the bus is leering at you, then THAT IS A CHANGE IN CONTEXT.

it's not the job of women to spell out the explicit RIGHT TIMES AND PLACES when you can mack on 'em. you pay attention; you figure it out; and when you fuck up, man up and own the consequences.

Waiting to be "leered at" or whatever poses pretty much the same problems that online dating does for me: the cute girl on the bus might not find me noteworthy until I strike up a conversation with her.

Most feminists that I've talked to think it's fine as long as your intentions are honest and you respect her boundaries if she's not interested.

Yeah, I'm always sure to be honest and respectful. If she's not interested then she's not interested and I simply go away, no nonsense. I've had a couple of meaningful relationships from striking up random conversations so I don't think it's something I'm going to stop doing if I see someone who looks interesting and I'm in the mood; it's just that I know some feminists feel it's inappropriate no matter how respectful you are, so I'm interested in hearing the alternatives they offer.

 

[deli2000]

You illustrate the point. How is any man supposed to know that this particular woman will feel threatened by him engaging her in conversation... without engaging her in conversation? Are you saying we shouldn't engage them at all? How will people fall in love, fuck, and propagate the human species like we've been doing for millions of years? How fragile is your psyche that a man simply approaching you with small talk is a terrifying experience? Oh no, he might be attracted to me!

Here's a girl who agrees with me.

I never said that you shouldn't talk to women. But if she does think a line has been crossed. Don't just put the blame on the woman.

 

[Angelus Errare]

GAF is usually pretty progressive in regards to politics and religion. This thread has left me shaking my head.

Nah, I find that GAF aligns pretty well with American's views on US society. I make this statement based on any thread involving women or minorities. As in...GAF really isn't anymore progressive than anywhere else. We just have amazing moderators who have no problem purging remedial folks.

 

[ishibear]

Indeed. And if those are they types of people hat you directed that post at then I apologize.

That said you should ignore the "lel tumbrrrrr" posters. They aren't contributing to the conversation anyway. Don't give the ones who write everything off that way the time of day.

Personally I'm not writing off the whole list because she said one or two things I don't like (And I'm not saying you're saying I am). I take significant issue with her explanations of many of her points, as well as the overall tone of the entire piece, so that's a lot. And personally I don't give many points for the message if the content isn't there to back it up for me. This would be true if it was about any other topic as well.

The things I do disagree with are the nagging and the bits about contraception, but I see Devo covered the contraception part already and someone else just did the nagging one.

My concerns are gone now.

 

[Deliverance]

So you have women telling you about how they are harassed on a daily basis and you're telling them that they're irrational? Are you fucking serious? Why do you always try to invalidate our opinions, our feelings and our experiences? It's sad.

I've been followed by men. I've seen guys pissing in front of me just to flaunt their dicks. Men have yelled and threatened me (in groups, usually). And I am irrational for not feeling safe? Okay.

 

[Air]

Be a kind human being, the list. There's some problems with it: (I'm sitting my behind where it's convenient, I'll just bypass a lone woman on the street, and pretty much Dutch for everything else). Some of it is weirdly worded. Like if you say something is sexist, I'm not going to take it as some moral truth- just as your opinion, which i think is fair. I'm not just going to assume that you are sitting in the right or wrong unless you explain a little about your position. There's a couple of other things but I feel like this list does more harm than good by complicating what should be super simple. Respect peoples privacy, listen to their opinions, and communicate. People already have trouble with those basic things and I think the list, while good in theory will have a hard to manifesting itself in reality.

 

[Dragonborn]

This is a different point than what was being argued, though. My first post in this thread was arguing that special fear of black strangers over white strangers was much less reasonable than special fear of male strangers over female strangers. I was responding to someone who thought that thinking that men have a special responsibility to not make strange women uncomfortable commits you to thinking that black people have a special responsibility to not make strange white people uncomfortable.

If you want to argue that people fear strangers too much in general, you're welcome to go for it, though I'm not sure this is really the thread for it. Maybe you're right insofar as people are bad about thinking about low-probability events, and we tend to treat them as being nearly impossible or as being much more likely than they really are. But it'd be wrong to cast this as women being notably irrational; this is just something everyone does, and probably we should accommodate it in specific instances rather than telling particular groups of people to not be so anxious, at least when it doesn't carry unfortunate baggage.

It is the daily experience of many women that they get sexually harassed. Empty bus, only person on it, then a guy gets on and sits next to them. When they glance over he's looking down her shirt. Happens to a few girls I know on at least a monthly basis. Going out for a run and guys ogle you the entire time. Walking down the street and some guy is staring at your ass. I mean women aren't oblivious to this, and he but happens all the time every day as soon as they rocket past puberty it's no wonder that guys can make them uneasy. Combine that with ample stories and often firsthand experiences of groping and sexual assaults and a clear differential in strength and physical ability and you can see why they'd be nervous. Most guys check girls out discreetly , but there is a minority of real jerks that give normal guys a bad name. Don't get mad at women for this, got mad at those jerks creeping on women.

Alright, I get what you guys are saying. Just to be clear, I wasn't saying women are irrational, but rather that both fears stem from some level of irrationality. I get, however, that it's probably not the best analogy and as such, I'll go ahead and drop it.

Honestly, I should probably try being more perceptive of things since I don't often see harrasment in action.

 

[Deified Data]

2. Do 50% (or more) of emotional support work in your intimate relationships and friendships.

a) Why “or more?” Isn’t that reverse sexism?

See 1a above.

b) But aren’t women generally just better at emotional labour than men?

With practice, men can learn to be just as good at it. Everyone benefits from the emotional labour of others, so equality means everyone should do the work.

What does this meeeeaaaan. How does one quantify "emotional labor"?

4. Give women space.

5. … but insert yourself into spaces where you can use your maleness to interrupt sexism.

I can't think of any way to accomplish both of these, unless the second is referring specifically to women you know personally.

6. When a woman tells you something is sexist, believe her.

The next time one of Fox's blonde pundits says that legislation aimed at shrinking the pay gap is the real sexism in this country, I guess I'll take her word for it.

8. Be responsible for contraception.

a) Doesn’t a man paying for contraception lessen a woman’s economic autonomy?

I mean, I guess you can look at it this way in an abstract, symbolic sense, but in a concrete sense it gives her more money in her pocket. Women who pay for their own contraceptives concretely have less money in their own pocket that they could use to pay for other things. Women don’t acquire more economic autonomy if their male partner doesn’t pay for contraception and just spends more of his money on himself instead.

Haha, okay. I see why this article needed a FAQ.

23. Don’t treat your spouse like a “nag.” If she is “nagging,” you are probably lagging.

Oh yeah, sing it sister. I need this on a t-shirt ASAP.

25. Befriend females. If you don’t have any female friends, figure out why you don’t and then make some. Make sure they are authentic, meaningful relationships.The more we care about and relate to one anther, the better chance we stand of creating a more egalitarian society.

Sounds good, but I'm not sure how successful I'll be if I abide by rule #4 stated above.

33. Walk the walk about income inequality. Women still earn about 77% as much as men. If you are in a position where you are financially able to do so, consider donating a symbolic 23% of your income to social justice-oriented causes. If 23% sounds like a lot to you, that’s because it is a lot and it’s also a lot for women who don’t have a choice whether to forfeit this amount or not.

This doesn't sound feasible in the real world. Kind of rings hollow when you have nothing but female co-workers who make more than you for doing the same amount of work or less. I understand the spirit of it but it reads like something from Clickhole.

35. Self-identify as a feminist. Speak about feminism as a natural, normal, uncontentious belief, because it should be. Don’t hedge and use terms like “humanist” or “feminist ally” that reinforce the idea that the F-word itself is a scary word.

I agree with this. That said this is the worst thing I've read on the internet in months and would never identify as a feminist in the same vein as Ms. Clark. It's a very easy issue to discuss and relate to people when you don't have your head up your ass.

 

[Foggy]

Alright, I get what you guys are saying. Just to be clear, I wasn't saying women are irrational, but rather that both fears stem from some level of irrationality. I get, however, that it's probably not the best analogy and as such, I'll go ahead and drop it.

Honestly, I should probably try being more perceptive of things since I don't often see harrasment in action.

Guys don't typically experience stuff like this so most go the pragmatic route when it comes to addressing an issue that don't personally affect them. The issue is that womens' experiences are backed up by statistics, personal experiences, as well as the social consciousness of women...so yeah, in some instances it's productive to just accept it.

 

[Devolution]

Alright, I get what you guys are saying. Just to be clear, I wasn't saying women are irrational, but rather that both fears stem from some level of irrationality. I get, however, that it's probably not the best analogy and as such, I'll go ahead and drop it.

Honestly, I should probably try being more perceptive of things since I don't often see harrasment in action.

Or you could just accept what women are trying to tell you?

 

[Reishiki]

35. Self-identify as a feminist. Speak about feminism as a natural, normal, uncontentious belief, because it should be. Don’t hedge and use terms like “humanist” or “feminist ally” that reinforce the idea that the F-word itself is a scary word.

I refuse. I do not identify as a feminist because I do not feel welcome as one.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

PICK YOUR TIME AND PLACE BETTER. learn to READ body language. it's quite easy if you WANT to, when your culture isn't excusing you from learning.

Why did Drinky Cow get banned for this post?

He's spot on anyhow, there's a time and a place for everything.
Hitting on a chick 12AM on the bus is neither the time nor the place.

 

[EdibleKnife]

Why did Drinky Cow get banned for this post?

He's spot on anyhow, there's a time and a place for everything.
Hitting on a chick 12AM on the bus is neither the time nor the place.

He's not banned.

 

[SteveWinwood]

Why did Drinky Cow get banned for this post?

He's spot on anyhow, there's a time and a place for everything.
Hitting on a chick 12AM on the bus is neither the time nor the place.

all this time here and this is the first youve run into drinky?

 

[Dragonborn]

Or you could just accept what women are trying to tell you?

I do, hence why I'm dropping it. I'm just saying I should actively be more perceptive so I can see it and possibly help out in some way.

Guys don't typically experience stuff like this so most go the pragmatic route when it comes to addressing an issue that don't personally affect them. The issue is that womens' experiences are backed up by statistics, personal experiences, as well as the social consciousness of women...so yeah, in some instances it's productive to just accept it.

Yes, I realize this as well. I suppose I just take it for granted sometimes. But yes, there's no arguing against personal experiances. I admit, my argument was unempathetic. Sorry if it offended anyone, I didn't mean to.

 

[Orayn]

Alright, since I got approval from My Gay Friend™, I'm going to bring up this analogy.

Straight guys who aren't martial artists, the pinnacle of fit-GAF, or carrying a concealed weapon: How would you feel about a heavily muscled dude who's a full head taller than you approaching you in a public space with romantic intent? He's built like Arnold Schwarzenegger and seems to be making an attempt at politeness, but he's definitely hitting on you.

 

[border]

Surely you don't think that the racial skew of mugging statistics is going to be anywhere near the gender skew of sexual harassment statistics, right?

I don't know if anyone really compiles statistics for something like street crimes or bar/club brawls, which is what I think most white people tend to anticipate -- getting mugged or clocked with a pool cue over an argument or something.

My point is more that neither group is really considering statistics when they do a threat evaluation. And most people's fears aren't rational -- the word "fear" itself almost implies some layer of irrationality. The probability of an individual getting mugged or raped or dying in an airplane crash is rather low. Yet we fear these things and allow them to influence our behaviors. It's really difficult to use probability to prove that any fear is "rational".

At the end of the day I'm not going to fault a girl for crossing the street if she sees me walking her way, but similarly I'm not going to feel bad about crossing the street to avoid someone I think looks suspicious (regardless of race).

 

[Trey]

Straight guys who aren't martial artists, the pinnacle of fit-GAF, or carrying a concealed weapon: How would you feel about a heavily muscled dude who's a full head taller than you approaching you in a public space with romantic intent? He's built like Arnold Schwarzenegger and is hitting on you.

Tell ol boy to swerve.

Though I am pretty athletic, so I might not fall within your conditions. But then, there aren't systemic anchors in place that would make this a true analogy to a woman being in the same position if I - or any man - were to hit on her. My hypothetical reaction is not necessarily how I presume a woman to react.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Alright, since I got approval from My Gay Friend™, I'm going to bring up this analogy.

Straight guys who aren't martial artists, the pinnacle of fit-GAF, or carrying a concealed weapon: How would you feel about a heavily muscled dude who's a full head taller than you approaching you in a public space with romantic intent? He's built like Arnold Schwarzenegger and seems to be making an attempt at politeness, but he's definitely hitting on you.

That's different though since there isn't an endemic societal oppression of males. They are both males and considered equals, and while you could argue that gay men aren't considered equal to straight men - well, in this hypothetical situation they'd either both be gay or the sexuality of the two would be an unknown factor.

 

[riskVSreward]

I never said that you shouldn't talk to women. But if she does think a line has been crossed. Don't just put the blame on the woman.

Oh, what a salient point you've got here. it's just a shame you couldn't get to it without misrepresenting my position to make me look like some kind of irrational woman-hating nazi.

I'm gonna step out of here, my advice to anyone swept up in this bullshit is at least try to exercise some type of independent thought. Men and women both can be sexually harassed, raped or disparaged based upon sex/gender. Women have significant problems to deal with sure, but if you promote gender equality as opposed to feminism you can reach for the same goal without leaving anyone behind.

 

[John Kowalski]

Kind of sad to see the degree of scrutiny the article must suffer through before it can be considered permissible to agree with it, and how the littlest mistake or less agreeable point is enough to wholly dismiss it.

 

[Gotchaye]

I wish there was more definitive statistics but the point remains: if it were the case that there was empirical evidence that black people were more likely to be the instigators in street harassment/ street violence/ street homocide, would it be reasonable to expect that black people cross the street/ not take a seat next to me/ stand at a distance so I don't have to feel anxious? Hell no, it'd be wrong.

Yeah, so here's where it's hard not to start talking about privilege. But at least in the real world, we don't seem to have the data that would justify much greater fear of black strangers. Counterfactually, if we did have that data, at some point short of 100% offense rates it would be the case that great fear of black strangers would be reasonable, right? Like, suppose the universe was racist and it was 99% likely that a random black stranger would mug you. Clearly some purse-clutching would be justified, and that other 1% of black people probably would want to consider modifying their behavior so as not to be taken for potential muggers.

But maybe we need a pretty high risk to make this make sense, just because of white privilege. It's a lot harder to object to black people being scared of police officers, say; it doesn't take a very high probability that a given police officer is not going to treat a black man fairly for him to be reasonably anxious about the interaction, and good police officers should probably take steps to allay that anxiety. You can't come up with really hard and fast rules for what level of risk makes anxiety reasonable and what amount of reasonable anxiety gives the sources of that anxiety reason to modify their behavior out of consideration.

 

[Dragonborn]

Alright, since I got approval from My Gay Friend™, I'm going to bring up this analogy.

Straight guys who aren't martial artists, the pinnacle of fit-GAF, or carrying a concealed weapon: How would you feel about a heavily muscled dude who's a full head taller than you approaching you in a public space with romantic intent? He's built like Arnold Schwarzenegger and seems to be making an attempt at politeness, but he's definitely hitting on you.

I'd tell him I'm not interested. Pretty straightforward.

 

[Log4Girlz]

you're right i shouldnt go down to that level.

how is he posting while banned anyways?

His bans are as short as his legs.

 

[Air]

Alright, since I got approval from My Gay Friend™, I'm going to bring up this analogy.

Straight guys who aren't martial artists, the pinnacle of fit-GAF, or carrying a concealed weapon: How would you feel about a heavily muscled dude who's a full head taller than you approaching you in a public space with romantic intent? He's built like Arnold Schwarzenegger and seems to be making an attempt at politeness, but he's definitely hitting on you.

That's happened to me before. It's definitely weird for the first few seconds until I can gauge their personality. I've also had a super aggressive homeless man make moved on me as well, plus more. I definitely get can empathize when it comes to situations like that, but I don't think it should rule your life either.

 

[Foggy]

all this time here and this is the first youve run into drinky?

I was curious why mods were ok with calling people nerds, clowns, and sperglords but I guess that's his thing. Not that it really bothers me, I just thought it was surreal

Alright, since I got approval from My Gay Friend™, I'm going to bring up this analogy.

Straight guys who aren't martial artists, the pinnacle of fit-GAF, or carrying a concealed weapon: How would you feel about a heavily muscled dude who's a full head taller than you approaching you in a public space with romantic intent? He's built like Arnold Schwarzenegger and seems to be making an attempt at politeness, but he's definitely hitting on you.

I'd imagine I would think it's pretty surreal(there's that damn word again), but as long as it was congenial I don't see any problem with it...and that's the point?

 

[deli2000]

Oh, what a salient point you've got here. it's just a shame you couldn't get to it without misrepresenting my position to make me look like some kind of irrational woman-hating nazi.

I'm gonna step out of here, my advice to anyone swept up in this bullshit is at least try to exercise some type of independent thought. Men and women both can be sexually harassed, raped or disparaged based upon sex/gender. Women have significant problems to deal with sure, but if you promote gender equality as opposed to feminism you can reach for the same goal without leaving anyone behind.

Sorry that your feelings were hurt while we were talking about the trivialization of women being in constant fear of being harassed. I'll try and be nicer to someone calling the majority of feminism disgusting next time.

 

[Deified Data]

I do most of this stuff already as part of being a decent human being, but I feel like this type of writing comes off as patronizing for those who are likely sympathetic to the cause, and probably never reaches the people it's intended for.

I feel like some of them are addressed specifically to that dumb dad caricature you see in commercials now and again. Especially the ones about nagging (you probably deserve it), taking care of your money (so your gambling debts don't send your wife to the poor house), and going to the hospital (so your wife doesn't have to nag you about strokes being a serious medical occurrence).

 

[Orayn]

I'd imagine I would think it's pretty surreal(there's that damn word again), but as long as it was congenial I don't see any problem with it...and that's the point?

That's happened to me before. It's definitely weird for the first few seconds until I can gauge their personality. I've also had a super aggressive homeless man make moved on me as well, plus more. I definitely get can empathize when it comes to situations like that, but I don't think it should rule your life either.

Though I am pretty athletic, so I might not fall within your conditions. But then, there aren't systemic anchors in place that would make this a true analogy to a woman being in the same position if I - or any man - were to hit on her. My hypothetical reaction is not necessarily how I presume a woman to react.

Yeah, I had to strain to make the analogy work at all. Men in general aren't subject to a significant amount of unwanted sexual attention from people they find physically intimidating. That scenario is very unlikely to happen multiple times in a single day, or to happen in a subway car containing a dozen other muscular gay guys who might not find anything wrong with the actions of the one approaching you.

 

[riskVSreward]

Sorry that your feelings were hurt while we were talking about the trivialization of women being constant fear of being harassed. I'll try and be nicer to someone calling the majority of feminism disgusting next time.

My feelings weren't hurt by your strawman arguments, be as mean as you want. I promote your right as a human being to free speech. It's too bad you can't have discussions without misrepresenting people but that's your cross to bear.

 

[Lord Thrappleper The 49th]

The only real thing that would probably affect me on that list is the one where if I'm walking and a woman is near me so I should cross the street, I shan't be doing that.
I don't give two flying craps if she's uncomfortable or feeling vulnerable, I walk where ever the hell I want and I'm not changing that for nobody. Besides, I'm too wrapped in in thinking whatever it is I'm thinking to even notice if I'm walking behind somebody or not.

 

[Vermillion]

Yeah, I had to strain to make the analogy work at all. Men in general aren't subject to a significant amount of unwanted sexual attention from people they find physically intimidating. That scenario is very unlikely to happen multiple times in a single day, or to happen in a subway car containing a dozen other muscular gay guys who might not find anything wrong with the actions of the one approaching you.

To quote a female friend, the first few times it can be flattering. After that...

 

[Foggy]

Nah, nevermind

 

[Vermillion]

No, but seriously - how isn't a lot of this list positive sexism, and how does 5 work? No one has answered either of these.

 

[Trey]

My feelings weren't hurt by your strawman arguments, be as mean as you want. I promote your right as a human being to free speech. It's too bad you can't have discussions without misrepresenting people but that's your cross to bear.

Here's a girl who agrees with me.

To be quite fair, you posted this video of a woman who attacked strawman "modern" feminists.

 

[Surface of Me]

i have aspergers. diagnosed, motherfucker.

"I have black friends"

Alright, since I got approval from My Gay Friend™, I'm going to bring up this analogy.

Straight guys who aren't martial artists, the pinnacle of fit-GAF, or carrying a concealed weapon: How would you feel about a heavily muscled dude who's a full head taller than you approaching you in a public space with romantic intent? He's built like Arnold Schwarzenegger and seems to be making an attempt at politeness, but he's definitely hitting on you.

This has happened and I tell them I appreciate the compliment but not interested. Some dude did try to get in the bathroom I was using on a train once, too. Although I understand there isn't the same level of precedence when it comes to him hitting on me and me hitting on a woman. Also, I carry a knife at all times.


Anyways, this thread has clearly delved into madness, but I'll give my two cents. Pretty good list with some flaws I think, I already do most of that stuff.

There is an alarming lack of empathy coming from both sides in this thread. TYPING IN ALL CAPS and calling people "nerds" and "sperglords" as insults isn't going to get your point across. I've been on the other side of that wall and am more empathetic to those than most. A lot of "creeps" just dont understand social cues and when you internet yell at them you just make it seem like they are more of an outcast than they already feel and alienate them causing them to settle into their ways even more. On the other side, dudes, you gotta understand that someone saying that girls dont like some of the attention you give them or the ways you give it to them isnt an insult to you, its merely saying that there are other, better (for you and her) and easier ways to make friends/get laid. Have some empathy and try to imagine what it's like for the girl when you approach her and adjust accordingly. You wont be striking out instantly, but you will find making friends and being social easier over time.

 

[Deified Data]

No, but seriously - how isn't a lot of this list positive sexism, and how does 5 work? No one has answered either of these.

The list wasn't well thought out. Best to ascribe to this hoary old chestnut: treat others the way you'd like to be treated. Be informed. Be mindful. Show and feel empathy. These are easy lessons to learn, but tough to teach if you take the attitude of the blog's author.

 

[Good Job Bob]

Yeah, I had to strain to make the analogy work at all. Men in general aren't subject to a significant amount of unwanted sexual attention from people they find physically intimidating. That scenario is very unlikely to happen multiple times in a single day, or to happen in a subway car containing a dozen other muscular gay guys who might not find anything wrong with the actions of the one approaching you.

Getting approached multiple times a day does seem like it would be quite the nuisance after a while; but as someone who has had meaningful relationships from these types of random convos (once on a bus, two other times around campus) it's hard for me to think that I should refrain the next time I see someone interesting (approaching isn't something I do often). It's an odd issue for me..

 

[linsivvi]

It's not a bad list except for the nagging part.

This. Nagging is a negative trait. Period.

If she said "Don't *automatically* treat your spouse like a nag", then I would agree.

 

[Orayn]

Getting approached multiple times a day does seem like it would be quite the nuisance after a while; but as someone who has had meaningful relationships from these types of random convos (once on a bus, two other times around campus) it's hard for me to think that I should refrain the next time I see someone interesting (approaching isn't something I do often). It's an odd issue for me..

What I was saying was mostly meant to convey the idea that some degree of being uncomfortable is completely understandable simply due to the physical differences. Even a tall-but-not-athletic guy like me is physically larger and has a correspondingly higher amount of muscle mass compared to many women, and the way that can affects someone's sense of safety shouldn't be underestimated.

It can be a very hard thing for men to grok because being hit on in that way isn't a regular experience at all. Society doesn't normalize that behavior and tell men to expect it.

 

[deli2000]

My feelings weren't hurt by your strawman arguments, be as mean as you want. I promote your right as a human being to free speech. It's too bad you can't have discussions without misrepresenting people but that's your cross to bear.

All over this thread there have been reasonable explanations about this article and addressing pretty much every point you have before you even posted. If you really can't empathize with ANY of those points and instead open your discussion here with a post calling most of modern feminism disgusting, then how is it a strawman argument to call you out on that?

 

[mullet2000]

There is an alarming lack of empathy coming from both sides in this thread. TYPING IN ALL CAPS and calling people "nerds" and "sperglords" as insults isn't going to get your point across. I've been on the other side of that wall and am more empathetic to those than most. A lot of "creeps" just dont understand social cues and when you internet yell at them you just make it seem like they are more of an outcast than they already feel and alienate them causing them to settle into their ways even more. On the other side, dudes, you gotta understand that someone saying that girls dont like some of the attention you give them or the ways you give it to them isnt an insult to you, its merely saying that there are other, better (for you and her) and easier ways to make friends/get laid. Have some empathy and try to imagine what it's like for the girl when you approach her and adjust accordingly. You wont be striking out instantly, but you will find making friends and being social easier over time.

Very good post. This is a problem I've seen time and time again in threads about this subject. Insults get thrown around pretty much equally by both sides, and that's only going to harden people and make them not want to listen to the other side. It seems to me like the more socially progressive side should on average be more careful about throwing insults around / hardening people (I try to be careful about it, anyway), but in all honesty this isn't really the case in my experience. That's generalizing though, of course.

That's also a good point about the empathy. People (men) need to think more about putting themselves in womens' shoes when it comes to this stuff. To be fair I don't think the tone of the article is helping this happen, though.

 

[Cyan]

Yesterday I learned that no one remembers AstroLad.

Today I learned that no one remembers Drinky either.

 

[synchronicity]

I'm all for treating women with respect, but if we do everything women want us to do we (men) will be running in circles, chasing our own tales. To try to accommodate the ever changing moods and demands of some women (or to try to appease the gender as a whole) is an exercise in futility. Plenty of the list is common sense, but the vibe of it comes off as high-maintenance. (a term I'm sure many will find sexist) Again, I think women deserve our respect, but I think many women imagine the limits of that term stretching much farther than it ought. I may be an antiquated male, but I'm no dancing fool. It seems the modern male is expected to defer to the whims of the fairer sex at almost every turn. I'm probably just a dinosaur though.

 

[nomis]

6. When a woman tells you something is sexist, believe her.

Uh huh. Just turn off all of my critical thinking skills, when a woman is making a likely emotionally charged assessment of something.

Most of the rest of the points are common sense, not much to take issue with.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Yesterday I learned that no one remembers AstroLad.

Today I learned that no one remembers Drinky either.

Who are you?

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Kind of weird to specifically signal out 23% donation of your income towards social justice causes. I support almost all social justice causes and they are definitely important and matter, but donations to Africa probably will help more lives... Though, of course, it's better to donate to a good cause like social justice groups than just randomly spending money on electronics and other crap.

This has nothing to do with the overall point maybe...

Women tend to be socialized in a way that makes us disproportionately likely to go into “caring” fields, while men are socialized in a way that makes them disproportionately likely to pursue careers in the trades or jobs that require mechanical/technical skills. And at the same time as our gender socialization apparatus teaches women to focus on developing caring skills above technical skills, our economic system tends to value technical skills above caring skills. For example: there is nothing intrinsically more valuable about the labour of a plumber (an overwhelmingly male field based on technical specialization) who knows how to unclog a pipe, as compared to the labour of being an early childhood educator (an overwhelmingly female field based on caring skills and requires a similar amount of training as a plumber) who knows how to teach children to read. Yet according to The Internet, the labour of a plumber is valued at a rate of approx. $27.76/hour while ECE workers are usually paid about half that, $14.70/hour.

Salary isn't based on how valuable the work is in a moral sense...

 

[Good Job Bob]

What I was saying was mostly meant to convey the idea that some degree of being uncomfortable is completely understandable simply due to the physical differences. Even a tall-but-not-athletic guy like me is physically larger and has a correspondingly higher amount of muscle mass compared to many women, and the way that can affects someone's sense of safety shouldn't be underestimated.

It can be a very hard thing for men to grok because being hit on in that way isn't a regular experience at all. Society doesn't normalize that behavior and tell men to expect it.

For sure, I'm not tall nor muscular but I am a man and I can completely understand why a woman might be uncomfortable if I randomly approach her. It isn't something I would question or hold against her at all.

 

[JABEE]

"I have black friends"

Actually to be more correct, the analogous example would be "I am black."

 

[dinazimmerman]

Most of the suggestions in the list are unobjectionable. Some are debatable /
not for everyone, but none seem crazy... Don't get what the fuss is about.