Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U Thread XI: Where 90% correct equals 100% wrong

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OrangeGrayBlue said:
There's a difference between wanting to make a game for everyone, as Sakurai does, and wanting to make a game for everyone but hardcore players. Sakurai is saying he regrets Melee because it was difficult to appeal to less avid gamers, not because competitive players liked it. Interpreting it any other way is looking to be victimized when you aren't. Aiming for a game that is "wide but deep" should make his intentions pretty clear.
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He's aiming to make it wide only. Depth doesn't seem to be in his design for the game. Brawl was a prime example where he changed things in hopes that new people could come in and be just good as those who put time into the game to try and be really good.
 
JoeInky said:
I think if his line of thinking actually had anything to it, Brawl would have done closer to Mario Kart numbers rather than sell only 5 million more on a console that had a 5 times larger install base, the casual playerbase on the wii clearly didn't eat it up as much as he suggests.
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The overall point is that sales of a sequel are usually more tied to how much people liked the previous game. This is the fatal conceit of "accessible games", rarely does accessibility make a game sell more: people can't know that it's more accessible if they haven't played it yet. It affects the next game in the series. With a few exceptions, of course.

However, this bad argument aside, I don't fully disagree with his reasoning. Fighting games need to be less obtuse in how they teach players their mechanics. And frankly, I love smash because it's NOT as "technique heavy" as other games. But these are all poor reasons as to why Brawl turned out like it did.
 
JavelinRobin said:
Might as well do a general post here...

Everyone can play the game how they want and everyone definitely should be able to voice their opinion on the aspects of the game. Nothing wrong with that. Didn't mean to stir up some shit. Didn't mean to be an ass.
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I'm sorry I acted like an ass to you. I understand that this is a sore spot for a lot of people.
 
t1407207600z0.png


HW Direct countdown. Don't expect anything for Smash.
 
Kyzon said:
I think that's a terrible philosophy to have. Should Mario levels be re-designed without those who never let go of the run button in mind? Should all of the expertly placed enemies and platforms be moved into locations that don't encourage you to speed run through the level if you dare? No. The two aren't mutually exclusive. Same with having a game that both competitive and less competitive groups can enjoy.

It's.... just ugh. Disappointing.

Fake Edit: I don't mean terrible philosophy from you btw. From Sakurai.
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No offense taken. I know this is a cop-out reply and I really want to have this conversation (I love game philosophy debates!), but I have to catch a train to see Gaurdians of the Galaxy...so, I got to go. Haha, sorry!

But I see your point and may choose respond in a little more detail later.
 
Kyzon said:
Yeah, this. I honestly want to know what he felt at the invitational. Seeing people play his game in a competitive setting. Like, did it make his blood boil? Was he sitting in the back and thinking about how it's not bad to also try to cater to them?
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Re-read what he wrote. He doesn't want to destroy competitive play, he wants to lower the barrier of entry TO competitive play. He wants a theoretical SSB tournament to feel like something that anyone can think "hey, I could enter this, I could maybe do alright." As-is, there's no way a casual melee player could have any chance in a properly competitive melee tournament. The meta-game has evolved to a point where it's just not accessible to the everyman. Sakurai wants to make a game that maintains that accessibility, even in a competitive setting.
 
To be fair to Sakurai, I'm not sure he sees much incentive to make his game the way the competitive community wants. After all, this is the community that, dissatisfied with Brawl, went to all the work of modding it to be more like Melee. In the wake of that, Sakurai can be forgiven for thinking, "here's a 'vocal minority' of the fanbase who have a very precise vision of what they want Smash to be. It is a vision not necessarily shared by the majority of consumers, and, moreover, it's a vision that conflicts with the vision I, the designer of the game, have. And, if the game I make doesn't live up to their standards, they'll just make a mod to turn the game into what they want it to be. Why, then, should I tailor the game specifically to them?"

I think both "sides," such as they are, of this argument are rather stubborn. Sakurai is dead-set on making Smash the way he wants it, and he's not about to bend to the competitive community. On the other hand, the competitive community is very particular about how they want the game to play, and they'll go so far as to change the whole game in order to make it play the way they'd like. It's like the unstoppable force meeting the immovable object.
 
OrangeGrayBlue said:
There's a difference between wanting to make a game for everyone, as Sakurai does, and wanting to make a game for everyone but hardcore players. Sakurai is saying he regrets Melee because it was difficult to appeal to less avid gamers, not because competitive players liked it. Interpreting it any other way is looking to be victimized when you aren't. Aiming for a game that is "wide but deep" should make his intentions pretty clear.
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But who are these gamers that Melee didn't appeal to? I've seen this same argument from Bungie (Halo devs before 343 took over) for so many years, but after 10+ years of the competitive communities bitching and screaming and the overall lukewarm reception to Halo 4, the Halo fanbase in general is more united in wanting a more skill-based, yet accessible Halo game.

Look at Smash 64. The game is so simple, so accessible, yet there's obviously an insane amount of depth. Who's complaining that the game is too difficult? What gamers are being turned away by it? Same thing with Melee, what gamers are being turned away by it? Every Smash game will sell millions regardless of what he puts in the game; the franchise has that much staying power with its name. The problem that many competitive gamers point out though is why does Sakurai make it appear that there's this huge separation of the competitive crowd from the casual crowd?

In reality there's not, at least not that much anymore.

These days Smashers as a whole are starting to become more united in wanting a balanced game that has depth for higher levels of play. I don't see how that impacts any random joe who wants to just go into the game, throw some items on and have an ULTRA BLAST with friends.. Shit, I'll be doing that. However, if Sakurai insists on watering down the mechanics of the game and creating an experience that only suits a shallow meta game, then what happens to the FEELING of wanting to get better? What happens to that drive, that determination to pull off spectacular combos in dire situations.. what happens to all that?

WELP, too bad.. It's a party game. Get your shit out of here, you either have this experience or play climb the mountain to find another game to be competitive at.
 
OricWindstar said:
No offense taken. I know this is a cop-out reply and I really want to have this conversation (I love game philosophy debates!), but I have to catch a train to see Gaurdians of the Galaxy...so, I got to go. Haha, sorry!

But I see your point and may choose respond in a little more detail later.
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Enjoy the movie :) I look forward to your response later on should you decide to

Tathanen said:
Re-read what he wrote. He doesn't want to destroy competitive play, he wants to lower the barrier of entry TO competitive play. He wants a theoretical SSB tournament to feel like something that anyone can think "hey, I could enter this, I could maybe do alright." As-is, there's no way a casual melee player could have any chance in a properly competitive melee tournament. The meta-game has evolved to a point where it's just not accessible to the everyman. Sakurai wants to make a game that maintains that accessibility, even in a competitive setting.
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In doing that, he's making the game shallow, and I'd argue taking away some of the joy of learning the game. As a kid, I cannot tell you how excited i was the first time I did a hadouken. I'm garbage at SF still, but learning the inputs for moves brings about a sense of accomplishment. Learning how to better your character, and always having something else to strive for deepens a game, and in a competitive scene makes it last longer.

Nobody (hyperbole, I know) wants to see gameplay 3 years from now and everyone's doing the same shit from week 1. That's dull. There's no progression. Sakurai's vision is at it's core anti-competitive. At least for a long term competitive game.


Hatchtag said:
Clicked the link, hoped it would be a cool Lord clip, was dissapointed when it wasn't...and then saw what happened. Gawd dayumn.
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I like how the announcer on the left actually fell out of his seat.
 
The Great Gonzales said:
To be fair to Sakurai, I'm not sure he sees much incentive to make his game the way the competitive community wants. After all, this is the community that, dissatisfied with Brawl, went to all the work of modding it to be more like Melee. In the wake of that, Sakurai can be forgiven for thinking, "here's a 'vocal minority' of the fanbase who have a very precise vision of what they want Smash to be. It is a vision not necessarily shared by the majority of consumers, and, moreover, it's a vision that conflicts with the vision I, the designer of the game, have. And, if the game I make doesn't live up to their standards, they'll just make a mod to turn the game into what they want it to be. Why, then, should I tailor the game specifically to them?"

I think both "sides," such as they are, of this argument are rather stubborn. Sakurai is dead-set on making Smash the way he wants it, and he's not about to bend to the competitive community. On the other hand, the competitive community is very particular about how they want the game to play, and they'll go so far as to change the whole game in order to make it play the way they'd like. It's like the unstoppable force meeting the immovable object.
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I used to think like this until I realized that PM isn't really anything like Melee. It's just built on the core elements that made Melee fun to a large group of people. I think Sakurai could have built a game that was more faithful to its predecessor while still being different.

The reason people are discouraged by his statements is that he seems to misunderstand the differences between the two games and why that "vocal minority" prefers Melee to Brawl. His statement in the last paragraph, though, about making it better for both, does give some hope. We'll see.
 
IntelliHeath said:
I can't really see that yet but I would imagine that Ganondorf might be revealed on Japanese release date.
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Man, this comment really puts the drought in perspective...When was the last time we looked forward to a 1st party's Japanese release date for a possible newcomer? Some banked on Wario for Mario Kart 8 (not the majority IIRC), but before that? DKC:TF? Just wow...
 
JoeInky said:
T-tomorrows potd is going to be a veteran r-right?

I think Ganondorf may actually have a chance, the hyrule warriors direct finishes before the potd gets released right?

Also I got another, similarly bad, nose bleed today. I'm going to die aren't I? Who will be the voice of cynicism when I'm gone?!
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I think Ganondorf is far more likely to happen on Hyrule Warriors' Japanese release date, August 14th. I wouldn't expect him tonight. And besides, Sakurai didn't even reference the Direct in yesterday's PotD comments.

EDIT: Actually nope. Not joining this discussion. Nothing anyone says is going to change any minds, so it's not worth the trouble. :P
 
afoni said:
im essentially a neet right now so i'll be up anyway

if it was anything past 4am i would immediately have just said "fuck that" and not post in here for a week
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If you're from the UK, it's 4AM since it's British Summer time or GMT+1 at the moment, so I won't be watching it live.
 
OricWindstar said:
That's not what I read at all. I don't think he regrets making a game because a certain group of people liked it, but because he feels a certain group wasn't able to enjoy it on the same level as these "pro players." Whether that's true or not is up for debate, but I don't think he hates competitive players as much as the community likes to think. He's just very adamant in making a game for everyone, including the people who don't jump on forums to talk about Smash.

I agree with what others have said. I played Melee when I was pretty young and never felt it to be too complicated to get the hang of. It's unfortunate Sakurai sees it that way, but I see where he's coming from.
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As someone who loves Melee and competitive Smash to death, allow me to give my two cents on this.

I can understand where the man is coming from. Nintendo is a company that values their reputation of making games that everyone can enjoy. There must be an immense amount of pressure when you make such a huge game targeted to Nintendo fans.

And to be honest? He's entirely correct about the difficulty of Melee. You might not think about it judged on past experience, but it's easy to see when you attend a convention or public event of some kind with a Smash setup. At a local anime convention for the past few years I always make time to get some games of Melee in with folks in the game room. And I see it time and time again. People will sit down to play and get wrecked, absolutely wrecked, by competitive players like myself using techniques present in this game that are never explained in the tutorials, never shown to you in the manual. And oftentimes, it even upsets them. After one or two games they get up and leave, or maybe sit down at the Brawl setup next to us, where they have ten times the fun they were having playing with us.

There's a reason a lot of speedrunners are attracted to Melee. These advanced techniques, movement options, even glitches like Samus's super wavedash. Most of these were discovered, and perfected, by the players. One could liken wavedashing and L cancelling to optimizing movement in a speedrun for the best possible movement time. Because of that desire to obtain optimal gameplay, Melee becomes addicting.

Competitive Melee continues to grow because of that game's depth, but not everyone chooses to swim in the deep end. And I know even some of us competitive players think that pool might be just a little bit too deep. I think if Smash 4 can accomplish that happy medium between Brawl's shallower end of the pool and Melee's deeper end, this game could have the potential to please a lot of people.
 
MaverickHunterAsh said:
I think Ganondorf is far more likely to happen on Hyrule Warriors' Japanese release date, August 14th. I wouldn't expect him tonight. And besides, Sakurai didn't even reference the Direct in yesterday's PotD comments.
.
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that's a pretty good point, since 08/14 is thursday over here, more likely a veteran reveal for Friday's POTD

but if I get Dorf today, I won't complain huehue
 
Lunar15 said:
It's way better than the gust jar, you can aim! It's a fun item!!!

I will concede that mole mitts > digging mitts, though.
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But the gust jar let you suck up stuff and could be used as a weapon, man!!!!! far more interesting then a vacuum cleaner oh boy

(The best thing about all this Skyward Sword content is that I can turn it off to my liking, even though I still plan on playing on Skyloft. This is why I'll be steamed if we get something stupid like a Fi or Ghirahim assist trophy, which is why I'm hoping we get Groose as an acceptable compromise)
 
SoldnerKei said:
that's a pretty good point, since 08/14 is thursday over here, more likely a veteran reveal for Friday's POTD

but if I get Dorf today, I won't complain huehue
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The only reason I think Dorf is more likely today than on the 14th, is because I think there's going to be some sort of direct or character video this month, and revealing Ganondorf on the 14th would fall too close to that.
 
I doubt dorf for smash will be revealed in the HW warriors direct, but I could see the next potd saying "Recently you saw Ganondorf in Hyrule Warriors, here's how he looks in smash!", with a second pic explaining some new feature or design aspect that he has.
 
Kyzon said:
In doing that, he's making the game shallow, and I'd argue taking away some of the joy of learning the game. As a kid, I cannot tell you how excited i was the first time I did a hadouken. I'm garbage at SF still, but learning the inputs for moves brings about a sense of accomplishment. Learning how to better your character, and always having something else to strive for deepens a game, and in a competitive scene makes it last longer.

Nobody (hyperbole, I know) wants to see gameplay 3 years from now and everyone's doing the same shit from week 1. That's dull. There's no progression. Sakurai's vision is at it's core anti-competitive. At least for a long term competitive game.
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Mastering the physical mechanics of pressing the correct button combinations in fighting games is categorically the thing I hate most about them, and the thing that keeps me from ever being interested in competing in them. Every time I fuck up a super move motion in Street Fighter I curse the imbeciles who thought it was more important for you to train your fingers to perform specific actions than to be able to read when a move was best to be used, and time it for that window. When my mind and my body compete with each other, I am not having fun.

The reason I love SSB is because it places the focus not on mechanical dexterity, but on making the correct timed decisions. The controls themselves, the mechanics, they fall by the wayside by fundamental design. It's the reason why every single character controls the exact same way. You learn one, you've learned all of them, from a physical standpoint. Then it's down to the character-by-character nuance and good-ol video game timing skills.

You can always improve yourself here. Sidesteps, for example, are very difficult to perfectly time all the time, but the input is dead-simple. Evasion and pushing evaded techniques are the core tenets of SSB as it was designed. But due to the physics of Melee, the competitive scene has instead turned into hyper-aggressive speed play that relies heavily on difficult-to-execute moves (wavedashing as perhaps the easiest example).

There is enormous depth in pure timing and mindgame-based SSB play. It is often said that Brawl is a more "defensive" game, as if that carries inherent negative connotation. But it's true, SSB as a SERIES is fairly defensive. There's a reason there are so many evasive techniques. You should be blocking, you should be shield-grabbing, you should be rolling, you should be sidestepping, you should be air dodging. The SSBM metagame has evolved moreso into a complicated spacing game with very little defense. And you know what, that's fine, SSBM is pretty fun lemme tell ya, and I enjoy playing it. But it is not synonymous with Smash Brothers. It is not what "SSB should be," despite the fact that plenty of highly competitive people enjoy playing it that way.

SSB at its very core is about accessibility, and has been from Day 1. It's about anyone being able to learn all of the mechanics, because they are brain-numbingly simple to execute. And it's about learning how to use these basic mechanics to conquer opponents via your skillful use and timing of them. Melee moved in a direction that was counter to this, in its competitive landscape. As Sakurai said in his column, he built SSB to be a COUNTER to the traditional Fighting Game scene wherein mastery of mechanics was paramount, and where non-maniac gamers were excluded due to the amount of time necessary for any one person to become competitive. It's often said that "hey Sakurai what's your problem, tons of non-competitive people loved melee, we can both like it." And sure, that's true. But what's also true is that non-competitive people CAN'T enjoy melee in a competitive scenario. There is a hard line drawn there. And while it seems like a no-brainer that the competitive and casual scenes for a game wouldn't necessarily be able to play on equal footing, it is EXACTLY this goal that Sakurai has been aiming for with this series. A game with a miniscule barrier to entry that can be enjoyed on a high level by players of all types. A game with high-level play that, when seen by more casual players, can be easily aspired to rather than thought of as frightening and overwhelming.

Sakurai isn't, and never has been, anti-competitive. He just wants to widen what "competitive play" MEANS for the series. It's got to be inviting to everyone, without alienating people who want to play it at a higher level. I feel like SSB4 is getting to that magical point. If you want it to be a game focused heavily on the things that make the Melee competitive scene what it is, though, you'll probably be disappointed. But it's time to accept that melee was an aberration. And as a guy who's played SSB semi-competitively for upwards of twelve years now, I welcome a refocusing with open arms.
 
MrSaturn99 said:
But the gust jar let you suck up stuff and could be used as a weapon, man!!!!! far more interesting then a vacuum cleaner oh boy

(The best thing about all this Skyward Sword content is that I can turn it off to my liking, even though I still plan on playing on Skyloft. This is why I'll be steamed if we get something stupid like a Fi or Ghirahim assist trophy, which is why I'm hoping we get Groose as an acceptable compromise)
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I'm going to play you online, and it's going to be Groose vs. Groose, SS items only, Skyloft.

I will make you suffer.
 
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