Getting lost/being stuck in a game was bad all this time?

The x-ray beam only works on blocks, though.
Yeah. But that happens to be the only one thing in the entire game that's not a block.

I guess the glass tube didn't have a surface thick enough for these x-ray indicators that were basically tiles/blocks.
Yep. There's a pretty good reason it doesn't show up (same reason it doesn't show up when morph-ball bombing it), but I do think it's a flaw (and I don't think it's unfixable even if I'm not sure how you'd do it well). Anyhow, I'm glad walkthroughs on the Internet exists because my next move would be to methodically go through every room in the game and power bomb it.
 
I'm not saying it only appeals to one person. It's just a difference in taste, and there's a multitude of tastes. My dad really likes games like Myst where you figure out a big puzzle. He doesn't like games that require skill. So while I would categorize him as a gamer that likes to get lost or stuck, there's no question that Zelda or Metroid wouldn't be any fun to him. Some games from "back in the day" expect both, and it's not out of the question to see how that can limit the amount of satisfied gamers.

I'm not saying Metroid is a bad game, I'm just explaining why the difficulty in the game isn't satisfying to me. I don't think that's testing my skill at all - it's no question I could go find the items, I just don't want to. That's not to say the game is bad! I still played it and found value in the experience. I prefer Super Metroid though - that's a type of lost/stuck that I find fun on its own terms because I can go explore and experiment, not just because the game beat me black and blue and now I have to find some solace in defeating it, somehow. It doesn't matter how deliberate the design was - I don't like it. I don't find it fun.

I'm also not saying that they shouldn't make games where you get lost. The only thing I've ever said in this thread is this: not liking games where you get stuck or lost doesn't make you less of a gamer, or ignorant, or shallow, or any other derogatory term that's been thrown around. Everything about that attitude can fuck right off.

Very well said. When you came along saying "fuck this attitude", my reaction was sort of "Come on, really?". But you did a very good job of explaining why it's not fun for you, and I really that opinion, even if I don't agree with it. I still think that there are a lot of whiny gamers who are too quick to call an old game poorly designed when it calls for them to think in ways they aren't to in modern games. But you're not one of them, I understand that now.
 
Games that have no failure state, where you can't do wrong even trying, that don't let you the freedom screw things up, which aren't complex and non-linear enough to allow you to get lost... Those are the real failure in a lot of modern game design, as far as I'm concerned.

Agreed.

I also want to throw in to this pile games that are ultra-linear and only ever allow me to play through the game through one way only. The more linear scripting there is, the more boring the game is to me.

I want games that allow me freedom to try many different things and fail my "own" way. I like games that push back, because that gives the game texture and dimension. Games that cave in regardless of what I do are featureless mush that don't hold my attention for longer than an hour or two.
 
This topic always makes me think of something that happened to me as a kid while playing the Infocom text adventure game Infidel. Back then, they actually sold these little answer guides with invisible ink that came with a marker that would reveal the answer if you were stuck. I refused to use that (not to mention didn't have money to buy it) and got stuck at a spot in that game for a month. Now, it's not like I played it every day trying to get past where I was struck, but I would try here and there and not get anywhere. One day, an idea popped into my head, I went and tried it, and it worked! Super wonderful feeling that in today's world you'd have to have a lot of discipline to experience because as soon as you get stuck, you could just go look it up.
 
Once you've laid the power bomb it cracks and then breaks. Again, the problem there wasn't that I didn't realize you were supposed to lay a power bomb. The problem was that I realized it, but then the game told me not to (since every time up until that point in the game (and every time after it), if you could power bomb it, it showed up on the x-ray beam but this time it didn't).

I get your point, but you can't x ray glass since it's already see through, and it's not a block tile. And besides, if you thought about using a power bomb, why didn't you do it anyway? Even though the X-ray didn't work, you could have still tried it. It's not like power bombs some rare resource. You would have gotten more soon enough.
 
LoZ Wind Waker had you locate Trifotce shards, I was able to find most of them on my own but if it weren't for the internet I think I'd have stopped.

Maybe I didn't pick up on the clues but I felt like the game poorly gave you hints for the locations.

I think the changes with the Triforce shards between Wind Waker and the HD revamp are a perfect illustration of the problem (IDK which version you're actually talking about though)

In the HD revamp the Triforce challenge still requires a lot of searching and hunting and at times it's possible to get lost if you're not intimately familiar with the game, but cutting out the treasure chart steps for most of them did a whole lot to make it fun and fair, whereas in the original game you spent twice as much time for very little end gain.

I think a thing to note is that while you can get lost in Wind Waker in general quite easily, you're always given a general idea of where to go with your maps and stuff. I think that's a big distinction a lot of badly designed exploration games miss out on. Wind Waker is a game you can easily get lost in (and in a very good and enjoyable way) but you're always given enough information that you can work your way around and find whatever it is you're after. The Triforce shards are all marked off with the quadrants each of them are in, etc.

I feel like a huge reason the original Zelda doesn't fare too well with new gamers at times is that it doesn't have as comprehensive of a map as any other game in the series after it did. The original game CAME with a physical map (over in the states anyway? I don't know about in Japan), so the developers did know that it was necessary to have some guidance, but I imagine it wasn't feasible technology-wise. If you ask me I still think the original Zelda is pretty good about giving you a sense of direction while still allowing you to lose yourself in a good and fun way, but it's a little more obtuse than what we're used to now.
 
Depends on the cause. Sometimes you get stuck because you're not good enough to beat an area or got stuck on a puzzle, but other times the game's design can hinder progress. The latter was particularly bad on the PSX/N64 era, where rough 3D graphics made it hard to tell if something is an item or just part of the level design.

There are also cases where design logic is inconsistent, so something that should solve a problem is useable in one context but not in another.

Now as an adult, I often use walkthroughs more readily than I would have a decade ago since I just don't have the time to fumble around exploring.
 
Saga Frontier's open worlds and little/no guidance turned me off from that game forever. If you miss some clue for your objective, you're fucked, because the game sure as hell isn't going to tell you what needs to happen next.

Hand-holding's one thing; zero direction with an open world where events only occur at the objective point is ludicrous.
 
And besides, if you thought about using a power bomb, why didn't you do it anyway? Even though the X-ray didn't work, you could have still tried it. It's not like power bombs some rare resource. You would have gotten more soon enough.

Because I had already been convinced it wouldn't work, and there were other dead-ends I could try to explore as well.

Edit: Anyhow, it really isn't that big a deal. That was just retelling the last point where I was stuck. I think it's a pretty minor issue with the game and I can't recall any other instances where I thought it was contradictory. My main issue would be from before you get the x-ray beam and have to morph ball bomb everywhere to find out hidden passages. I didn't feel like that was any challenge, just methodically doing the same thing over and over everywhere. But I don't recall if there were any instances where you actually needed to bomb some random block to progress or if that was just for extra equipment and all the blocks you had to bomb were relatively obvious (like you could see that there was a room on the other side).

I don't think I ever had an issue in Metroid Prime, and Metroid Prime still managed to make me feel like I was exploring, despite being much more clear about what was bombable and what wasn't. (Still haven't finished Metroid Prime though cause the final boss takes like a million hits...)
 
I really enjoyed watching the Kay Demon's Souls let's play for this reason.

She examines everything in the game and leaves no stone unturned...and quite often turns up a clue or mechanic that would otherwise be easy to miss.

I'm currently playing FF 13 and XCOM EU, alternating play sessions, and I really have found that level of paying attention to detail / game indicators (like Kay does) helpful to me.

(ie. learning the paradigms / enemies versus just bashing auto mode in FF, using every tool in the kit in XCOM)

A good game rewards you for paying attention to detail...and this should help you problem solve out of seemingly impossible situations.

If paying attention to detail doesn't help you, yeah, then that's not on the gamer.
 
I guess the glass tube didn't have a surface thick enough for these x-ray indicators that were basically fat tiles/blocks. Personally, the moment i got into that tube i tried to smash it with everything i had, even though i didn't have the power bombs yet... The moment i got the power bombs first thing that came to mind was this glass tube. It was a glass tube, begging you to smash it, despite any clues or an x-ray indicator.

If you let the game sit at the intro, it plays an attract video where it literally shows you how to blow up that tube. It also displays a bunch of other high level techniques.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7-Z4swEgKE I think this video is missing one loop.
 
Because I had already been convinced it wouldn't work, and there were other dead-ends I could try to explore as well.

Ah. We'll then that's on you. You were there, thought of something you could have done, and the decided not to do it. The game never told you you couldn't do it. It just didn't tell you you could do it. Rather than running around to different dead ends power bombing a bunch of stuff that you knew you couldn't power bomb, might as well stay in the room your in and attempt to power bomb the thing you're unsure of.

I'll agree that maybe he designers should have come up with a different idea for what the player should do at that point, but sometimes you have to be a good player and experiment.

As the players, it's our job to recognize differences. The tube is different from other tile sets. It's not made of blocks, therefore the X-Ray doesn't work on it. Therefore, using the X-ray isn't giving you he same info. So you can't consider it definitive proof that a power bomb won't work. You have to look at other clues (which were there), or you just have to say screw it and give it a shot. No harm in trying something that might work, even though you don't have proof.
 
Ah. We'll then that's on you. You were there, thought of something you could have done, and the decided not to do it. The game never told you you couldn't do it. It just didn't tell you you could do it. Rather than running around to different dead ends power bombing a bunch of stuff that you knew you couldn't power bomb, might as well stay in the room your in and attempt to power bomb the thing you're unsure of.

Why would I stay in that specific room and not in the huge areas I'd discovered since?
 
movie-resident-evil-code-veronica-x-logo001.jpg


/thread
 
Games that have no failure state, where you can't do wrong even trying, that don't let you the freedom screw things up, which aren't complex and non-linear enough to allow you to get lost... Those are the real failure in a lot of modern game design, as far as I'm concerned.

It takes all kinds, there is nothing wrong with games like that. They are not failures, they simply wish to provide a different experience.
 
I'm not saying it only appeals to one person. It's just a difference in taste, and there's a multitude of tastes. My dad really likes games like Myst where you figure out a big puzzle. He doesn't like games that require skill. So while I would categorize him as a gamer that likes to get lost or stuck, there's no question that Zelda or Metroid wouldn't be any fun to him. Some games from "back in the day" expect both, and it's not out of the question to see how that can limit the amount of satisfied gamers.

I'm not saying Metroid is a bad game, I'm just explaining why the difficulty in the game isn't satisfying to me. I don't think that's testing my skill at all - it's no question I could go find the items, I just don't want to. That's not to say the game is bad! I still played it and found value in the experience. I prefer Super Metroid though - that's a type of lost/stuck that I find fun on its own terms because I can go explore and experiment, not just because the game beat me black and blue and now I have to find some solace in defeating it, somehow. It doesn't matter how deliberate the design was - I don't like it. I don't find it fun.

I'm also not saying that they shouldn't make games where you get lost. The only thing I've ever said in this thread is this: not liking games where you get stuck or lost doesn't make you less of a gamer, or ignorant, or shallow, or any other derogatory term that's been thrown around. Everything about that attitude can fuck right off.

Very well said.

I think the hard core crowd on forums is just pretty cantankerous in general, which is where some of the attitude comes from. Also, people that like hard games can be bitter since there are so few of them at the AAA level so they're left mostly with indie games and niche lower budget titles from bigger studios to get their fix there--and that fix often doesn't have top level graphics, production values etc.

So I can get their frustration on that front. But otherwise agree that most games aren't bad--people just have different tastes. I like fairly easy, linear, narrative-driven games. I have no fun with hard, skill-based games, but I don't consider them bad games by any means. They're just not for me, just like the easy, story driven stuff often isn't for hardcore fans of skill-based games.
 
Why would I stay in that specific room and not in the huge areas I'd discovered since?

Not sure what you mean, but obviously I'm not talking about staying in one room forever. Just stay in that room until you do everything you can do in it. When you think there's something to do in the room you're in, and you have a handful of options (power bomb being the most obvious one), then you might as well exhaust your options before moving on to the next room.

You said yourself that you got stuck in the game at that point.

So I think "hmm, this looks like something I could power bomb. Hold on. I shouldn't waste a power bomb unnecessarily, I'll use the x-ray beam to check it. Huh. Turns out I can't power bomb it. Oh well." And then I roam around the game for hours until finally consulting a walkthrough that says I should just power bomb it. If I wouldn't have gotten the x-ray beam I wouldn't have gotten stuck.

Rather than roaming around different rooms for hours, use all your options in the suspicious room that you're already in. You decided not to experiment, and you couldn't detach yourself from one clue (xray) in order to see the other clues (the other broken glass tube, the fact that glass was inherently different from other tiles, and the map layout indicating that there was more to that room). And so, you left the room before using all your options. That's on you.
 
LoZ Wind Waker had you locate Trifotce shards, I was able to find most of them on my own but if it weren't for the internet I think I'd have stopped.

Maybe I didn't pick up on the clues but I felt like the game poorly gave you hints for the locations.

There is literally a map with every single shard marked on it. I am not sure how this is possible.
 
I can think of a recent example that annoyed the hell out me: Killzone Shadow Fall. Now it's been a while since I've played it, but I distinctly remember getting lost in that game after clearing out the enemies and trying to get to the next area. The arrow showing where to go was useless and because of the way Guerrilla designed the areas as "open", there would be numerous dead ends. There were probably 3 or 4 areas in the game where I had to run around for entirely too long just trying to figure out how to move to the next area. That's not good game design. If it's part of the game to explore areas, then getting lost is perfectly fine. However, it's not suited for every game and in the case of KZSF, it interrupted the flow of the campaign and was frustrating.
 
To actually contribute: I don't consider getting lost necessarily bad. Frustrating, sure, but a natural part of some games.

What I hate with a passion is games you can render unwinnable, where the only option is to start over. There can be as many challenges as you want, but there should always be a viable way to progress

For clarification: this is for certain games, we all know which ones. Obviously in games like Civilization you can lose through poor planning. Just think of how impossible the Ace Attorney games would be if they let you go into court without getting all the required evidence first
 
I think the *big* problem is that, for the player, it's impossible to distinguish between "Stuck because you've missed/haven't figured out what to do next" and "Stuck because the game has failed to give you adequate information on what to do next". Both are frustrating, but the first is a challenge for the player to solve, wheras the latter requires either a guide or luck.

The risk, though - and it's a trap I've fallen into - is that if you can't tell between the two of them, the average player will assume it's the latter. You need to have a lot of trust in a game to consider the possibility that the problem lies with you, and many games simply fail to earn that faith. And as soon as a player looks at a guide once, the path's open for them to keep looking, potentially ruining later puzzles even before they've given them proper consideration.

From a game design point of view... do you *assume* that a player will trust you? It's a brave move; it might produce better games, but it also produces *riskier* games. Not least because, of course, you as the designer may have judged your clues wrong, they might be much harder than intended (it's very difficult to step back and judge a problem you've created objectively, since you'll inherently already know the solution). It's a much safer option to err on the side of caution and be a bit too obvious.

Definitely agreed. I've done this myself, a lot actually, only to later rethink and/or realize that "damn... The game literally told me right there."
 
Actually Sonic presents the most amazing example about why this discussion has gone no where - the whole thing is completely subjective.

I saw someone mention Morrowind previously and he was right, there was no Oblivion/Skyrim/Every-game-lately compass telling you where to go, there were NPCs describing how to get there much like someone might do in real life to give you directions.

Once again, perfect example of how this gameplay philosophy can be good and bad.

Morrowind is one of my favorite games of all time, but it didn't take me too long to start using "coc balmora" or some equivalent in the console to teleport to locations after I'd already visited them. In many cases, I couldn't figure out how to find a place at all, or I would find it only to discover I'm lacking some essential skill or need to level up before progressing further.

Anyone that has played the game will tell you this is where things go wrong. Firstly, you end up having to progress in other places of the game with different quests to level or get skill upgrades (or money for training skills). The Journal in the game does not have active quests, finished quests or any form of organization. So once you've gone through a dozen or more quests to try your hand at that initial quest you left behind - you end up spending a ton of time just searching for the correct page in your journal to find the instructions on just how to get there again.

If that's your idea of fun, cool. Just don't be surprised if others disagree and especially don't tell other people what they should be allowed to do based on your definition of what a "gamer" is. That speaks of entitlement even therapists probably couldn't cure.
 
I'm a programmer so I'm usually pushing my brain fairly hard. Getting mentally stuck is literally my job. I love it. But when it comes to playing games? Erm, not so much. Game mechanics can be satisfying without being difficult. I find algebra pretty easy, but I still like to do it. Sudoku is fun when you're solving the easier puzzles. It's brain exercise that's basically going for a light jog. It's relaxing and entertaining in a deep and enjoyable way.

Like Resident Evil 4. The game was constantly throwing new, different enemies at me, which was fun, but it never got frustrating. That's because the core mechanics of the game were satisfying in their own right - it's still fun to me to play the opening village part of the game even though I can blow through it no problem. The guns are fun to shoot with, corralling the zombies through the town, finding choke points and ripping off a grenade. Not difficult, but super gratifying.

There's a wide variety of games I enjoy. Arcade racing games or arena shooters are two of them I enjoy - not in a competitive or intense way, but because the game mechanics are just fun to use. I'll be damned if getting the perfect drift doesn't put a smile on my face.

Then there's someone worse at games than you.

Then someone worse than them.

And so on.

And so forth.

Before long the worst players developed higher aspirations than the best players of yesteryear.

Despite much much easier games.

Despite Gamer Bribery.

Despite exponential growth in guides, streams, wikis, and on-tap help.

Avarice, you see, is never satisfied. Feeding it only makes it hungrier.

Publishers have learned of mobile, and are beginning to put paywalls on this stuff now.

Enjoy!
 
Depends on the game, the worse kind of stuck is when you're given a hint in dialogue that you missed or mis-remembered and can't re-initialize the dialogue as a reminder.

Lost forests aren't fun either, every bloody time.
 
Actually Sonic presents the most amazing example about why this discussion has gone no where - the whole thing is completely subjective.

I saw someone mention Morrowind previously and he was right, there was no Oblivion/Skyrim/Every-game-lately compass telling you where to go, there were NPCs describing how to get there much like someone might do in real life to give you directions.

Once again, perfect example of how this gameplay philosophy can be good and bad.

Morrowind is one of my favorite games of all time, but it didn't take me too long to start using "coc balmora" or some equivalent in the console to teleport to locations after I'd already visited them. In many cases, I couldn't figure out how to find a place at all, or I would find it only to discover I'm lacking some essential skill or need to level up before progressing further.

Anyone that has played the game will tell you this is where things go wrong. Firstly, you end up having to progress in other places of the game with different quests to level or get skill upgrades (or money for training skills). The Journal in the game does not have active quests, finished quests or any form of organization. So once you've gone through a dozen or more quests to try your hand at that initial quest you left behind - you end up spending a ton of time just searching for the correct page in your journal to find the instructions on just how to get there again.

If that's your idea of fun, cool. Just don't be surprised if others disagree and especially don't tell other people what they should be allowed to do based on your definition of what a "gamer" is. That speaks of entitlement even therapists probably couldn't cure.

The problem you're describing literally started and ended with the Journal in the base game being utter crap. Once the first (IIRC) expansion pack added a quests list with the "show active" filter, checking where to go was quick and easy - so it never had anything to do with how directions were given *shrug*

Morrowind could have used an optional quest marker, though. A shame newer TES games added a quest marker that is not optional at all, because they give zero directions other than "go to a random cave in a stupidly huge forest".
 
I like the feeling of places with scale and complexity myself, so I usually don't mind getting lost every now and then.
 
these days: area timers

Yeah but that's the worst.. Like in Uncharted 3 when you're running around, trying to figure something out for yourself, and the game decides you'r ea fucking idiot and just tells you over and over in different ways.

Shut the fuck up.


I'm so tired of bold, italicized words, quest markers, checkpoints every 2 minutes, father/daughter hand holding leading me to the end of the game.

This is BAD design. Good design is when you get lost , retrace your steps, talk to everyone, and figure out what to do.

In the age of gamefaqs and shit, do we really need the game to just flat out tell us what to do every step of the way? If someone thinks getting stuck is awful, they'll be on gamefaqs in an instant anyway.
 
I think there sort of needs to be a balance. Getting lost/stuck isn't inherently bad, but if you're lost or stuck for a prolonged period of time then that could be a sign that the game is poorly designed (though it could also be a sign of you being an incompetent player). I'd say vague or nonsensical puzzles/instructions is bad game design.

Personally I don't really enjoy being lost or stuck though, at least if I can't overcome it in a timely manner. I like challenge but if there's no feeling of progression then feelings of negativity overwhelm me to the point where the joy I get from overcoming the challenge doesn't counteract the negativity and I come out of that part of the game having not enjoyed it.I also don't care about getting "lost in a world," when I play a game or whatever, I just want to play the damn game.
 
Yeah but that's the worst.. Like in Uncharted 3 when you're running around, trying to figure something out for yourself, and the game decides you'r ea fucking idiot and just tells you over and over in different ways.

Shut the fuck up.

Eg. Telltale's Sam & Max games let you turn on and off hints like that (as well as alter the frequency of them). I don't see any problem if it's optional. I had them off until I had been stuck at one place for too long.

Then there's Machinarium's solution of having a guide-book built into the game. (But you have to beat a simple mini-game to use it so as to make you think a bit before just spamming it.)
 
You mean the thing which is literally covered with up and down pointers that you press up & down to operate? If only the sadistic bastards had given us some sort of clue.
That's a pretty ridiculous stretch, and even if that's what they actually intended, it's still very obtuse and poorly communicated to the player.
 
A game should give you a goal, but the leave you to your own devices to figure out how to accomplish that goal. Sometimes the path will be obvious to you, sometimes you will have to stop and think or explore the area, look for clues you might have missed. If you overlook something, it can be easy to get stuck in a well designed game. The only way to remove the possibility of the player getting stuck is to either remove all complexity, or constantly hold the players hand so they can't miss any clues, which in effect makes the complexity pointless busy work. A games that points you in the right direction 100 percent of the time just isn't fun or engaging.


This thing is the bane of modern game design
6VzEyCB.jpg
 
It really depends on the type of game.

In an adventure game i expect to get stuck. to have to really work it out.
"oh! i have to combine these two objects and....."

Like i play myst and i am stuck 100% of the time. But its fine, because that is kind of the point.

The worst getting stuck for me is in a game like Doom 2.
Sometimes im just wondering around the map...almost everything is dead. Looking for the one fucking hidden area i haven't found. I am sure some people have no problem, but there are a few of those maps that even now i just get completely lost in. That is less fun,
 
At the very least a game should have a story recap to let you know what the last thing that happened was and roughly what you should be doing. I've abandoned so many rpgs just because I couldn't remember what I was supposed to be doing
 
This thing is the bane of modern game design
6VzEyCB.jpg

I disagree with that.

I can't logically figure out where Black Reach caves are without a map or marker as I have never lived in Skyrim before. Someone in game MUST tell you where it is, or that it even exists in the first place. By your logic, we shouldn't even have maps (Like the 3d one in game)?

That is called streamlining. Nothing wrong with that. Instead of busting out a big ass map every time, you can just look at the top of your screen. Big deal. You still have to figure out stuff at the location once you get there.

*TLDR: You were going to find it anyway with that big ass map. Instead, all you gotta do is look up and see the marker.

*Solution: I think more games should introduce a "Fog of War" mechanic. Done.

---

I also hate it when something that would logically make sense doesn't apply to the obstacle you are trying to overcome.

Example:

Game gives you an item that allows you to scale walls.
There is a giant wall blocking your path.
(LOGIC KICKS IN) You try to scale it.
NOPE.
It doesn't have that texture on it that lets you know you can grab it and scale it.
Stumped. Go online.
Oh I got it!
I was supposed to talk to this guy TWICE and he will just throw me over the wall!
Great.


I like to refer to this as developer interference. In that scenario, YOU MUST do what the developer wants you to do, rather than what makes sense.

Now, that is a general example--but I fucking hate that shit.
 
This thing is the bane of modern game design
6VzEyCB.jpg
It really is, no matter how jtenma attempts to defend it.
Especially because I'm not sure how he made the logical jump from "GPS that will point to you with a millimetric accuracy where the next goal is" to "No one should ever give you any kind of indication" when it's blatantly obvious that there should be a virtuous middle way to give to the players directions without doing all the thinking for them.

You can literally play Skyrim or Oblivion without ever read a single line of dialogue and still complete most of their quests, since they essentially consist in "Follow the arrow, then kill the monster/loot the item with the arrow on top". Oh, and the Journal will do all the logical deductions for you.
Skyrim gives its GPS so much fro granted that usually doesn't even bother to give you any direction, as have painfully realized modders who tried to deactivate it.

If that isn't a case of design that doesn't take in high regard the intelligence of his players, then I don't know what it is (but it sucks anyway).

Glad somebody else said it. Like really? You're playing games, not curing cancer, no need to get on a high horse about it.
Imagine that. Some people on a gaming forum actually happen to care about the quality of the games they play and how they are designed. Who could have guessed it.
 
I disagree with that.

I can't logically figure out where Black Reach caves are without a map or marker as I have never lived in Skyrim before. Someone in game MUST tell you where it is, or that it even exists in the first place. By your logic, we shouldn't even have maps (Like the 3d one in game)?

Games should have maps, but games should not have quests were NPCs just tell you to go to a certain point on the map. "Go to the cave that I have marked on your map and kill the goblins" is a poor quest. "Investigate goblin activity on the north road" would be a better one. The level design should allow you to find the cave on your own, without giving you explicit directions. Thus making the game an adventure, rather than a GPS simulator.

It's not so much the markers that are the problem, it's the bad quest and world design that makes it impossible to play without them. A descent modern game should have the option to turn them off, and still have the game be playable. Allowing both players you want to be guided, and players who want to figure shit out on their to enjoy the game.

*Solution: I think more games should introduce a "Fog of War" mechanic. Done.
I can agree with this. It shows you where you've been, without spoiling what's ahead. It's also good for seeing where you haven't explored yet.
 
Top Bottom