Ferguson: Police Kill 18yo Black Male; Fire Gas/Rubber Bullets Into Protesting Crowds
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For some reason the way it was being talked about made me think the term was inherently offensive. Yeah, I knew about the mocking stuff. Apologies again!evangelion13
Neo Member
Speaking as an Army vet guy and after being deployed to Iraq several times, the fabric in ACUs or BDUs will keep you cooler. Being in 100+ degree heat or high intensity situations for a prolonged amount of time is easier to deal with in the Army getup. However, it really sends the message that the cops are an occupying force rather than peacekeepers.
The image is only flushed down the toilet when the suspect is black. A koolaid which you seem to have happily taken a drink. You post reminded me of a case in Texas where four white cheerleaders robbed a couple of banks.
Info here: http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20129198,00.html
It's a classic case of white suspects being described better than a black victim.
Yeah . The ALE/DPS here wears a variation of the Army digital Bdus at times. I imagine a lot of it comes down to dept purchasers too.
Z_Y
Member
Do you not understand why camouflage was used by the military in the first place? It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to use it when you are standing in front of a Dollar General.
So yea...the most likely answer is that they think that it makes them look tough/cool.
Combat ready for Iraq... or Ferguson, MO. Is the camo really necessary?
Bunch of losers.
Fire all of them.
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
Lol, woodland MARPAT is tactical in an urban environment. GTFO.
If they need a "tactical" camo, they can use the urban MARPAT, but it doesn't look very "military.
If you're in control of a Police budget, and you are charged with buying clothing and gear for your team. Do you:
A) Buy everything from a for profit company paying full price
B) Buy army surplus or gear directly from the government who is trying to get rid of it at 1/2 the price
Being camo and intimidating or not is a different matter. However I bet more of the look has to do with the available prices and who they are sourcing stuff from the cheapest than what people think. If they said "we need more funds for to dress a certain way, vote to give us more money", people would hit the roof as well.
Veritigo_X
Member
What kills me about the whole use of camo for urban situations is this quote from Chief Wiggum:
It's not military, it's tactical operations. It's SWAT teams. That's who's out there police. We're doing this in blue.
Chief needs to get his eyes checked.
It's not military, it's tactical operations. It's SWAT teams. That's who's out there police. We're doing this in blue.
Chief needs to get his eyes checked.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
The military is practically giving this stuff away.
Dickey's provides uniforms at an exceedingly cheap price. You're probably right though that it's not expensive, surplus and all that.
ShironRedshift
Member
Yeah, that's what I'm wondering. Even if the officer's story is correct and brown did charge at him... what does that really change? Why is that relevant? Either way, he was still unarmed. Is the only way to subdue such unarmed individuals really to just unload on them? Is that really an appropriate and fitting response? I refuse to believe that--even in such a scenario, that's no reason to use deadly force.
That the officer seems to believe that his story in any way changes anything and actually justifies shooting at an unarmed individual is just absolutely tragic to me and just reeks of how overly-militaristic our culture is and how tremendously lacking the current training our law enforcement officers is and how desperate it is that they actually be trained to not needlessly escalate situations and to attempt to handle them as peacefully as possible and opt for non-lethal methods whenever possible, instead of just grabbing their firearms for each and every problem just because it's the quickest and easiest answer.
Everything about this is just tragic on so many levels and depresses me out of my mind especially since it's all needless and so easily avoidable and stuff like this and the "shoot first, ask questions later" mentality of many officers seem to follow just makes me terrified for what my own children's futures may be like if I choose to have them within this country when the time comes, especially if they wind up through no fault of their own developing some mental illness no one take the time to understand, and it just makes me just want to get the heck out of here because unfortunately I can't really see any of this changing anytime soon because too many of these problems are just too firmly ingrained for that to be possible. Just terrible on so many levels.
partyphone
Banned
they should be thinking about the implications of buying military gear. but they either don't care or see it as a side benefit.
Not only that, how does it affect protesters?
Probably. But if you can buy a new truck/van for $40,000 or an armored troop carrier for $3000, which one would you buy?
BronsonLee
Member
Yeah, basically even if Wilson's story is completely accurate and corroborated by everybody, he still used his gun improperly and is going to jail. That was not a situation that justified a gun being drawn.
And if the double back/charge thing happened because Wilson shot at him, then that's on Wilson too.
And if the double back/charge thing happened because Wilson shot at him, then that's on Wilson too.
MHWilliams
Member
If Brown charged after an altercation at the vehicle (where Brown supposedly went for his gun), then Wilson can say he feared for a threat on his life, meaning the shooting can be found as justified.
It's rather difficult to get a police shooting labeled as non-justified. That's why the surrender is important.
Again, it's been linked before, but read this.
Essentially the fuzzier the account and the more aggressive Brown appears, the more likely Wilson's actions will be found as justified.
Blame Andre The Giant. He ruined the "Gentle Giant" narrative when he stabbed Hogan in the back, and tore the cross from his neck back in the 80's. Since then the american publics reaction to the giant community has been with horror, and anger.
BronsonLee
Member
What becomes real wonky is if the reason Brown charged is because Wilson shot at him when he was running away. The whole thing is a damn time bomb.
Fucking Andre. Wins the belt, immediately hands it to DiBiase
Well I kind of want to shift the conversation away from protester or the Brown shoplifting and talk more about just how dreadfully awful the police response to all of this has been.
But ya, the protesters are definitely going to react differently to goons wearing camo and combat boots than they would to guys in blues.
jamesinclair
Banned
Their mindset is battle, not protection.
They come out there and literally draw a line in the street. Why? What's behind them that they're protecting? Absolutely nothing. It's not like city hall is there are people are threatening to burn it down. There is literally empty asphalt.
If they actually gave a shit about protection, there would be 6 officers by every front door of the businesses on the street to prevent looting. Standing on private property, not engaging unless protesters actually went to the business.
The protestors could have the street itself (public) to do as they wish. Its America right? The right to assemble in public?
But they dont. The police havent once stopped any looting or fire. Not once. Theyre too busy "defending their line" of nothingness.
They want to get paid overtime and use their toys. That's it.
Its a disgrace
Earthstrike
Member
Why does hearing an account of a story make you a witness? Am I a witness because I heard and can repeat a side of the story? Am I misunderstanding what it means to be a witness?
MHWilliams
Member
I agree, but the investigation would likely ignore that, because Brown isn't alive to provide that state of mind. Like in the Martin case.
It changes everything. A person can cover twenty feet in about 1.5 seconds. Assuming the gun was already out (based on reports the cop either shot as he ran away or had it aimed), there is no time to switch to a taser or something non-lethal. Especially if he thought Brown was going for his gun again. He could justifiably feel his life was in danger in that split second he had to react. There is no partner or backup on site to help him against a large individual.
BronsonLee
Member
Yup, pretty much. The only thing that might make that difficult would be the eyewitness accounts, since there really wasn't much in the realm of that in the Martin case. They'd try pretty hard, though.
I never said one should not feel sorry for what happened but i just don't buy this "people make mistakes but it only becomes an issue when...." framing, because only a fraction of the population is willing to commit robbery and such an act is a red flag for someone like myself and makes me suspicious as to what the person did when he ends up being offed by an officer. This is perhaps not a fair starting point but it is my raw reaction. If I had a troubled past with law enforcement I would probably see this differently but i don't. ..
I don't agree with police releasing the footage but it is also not productive when people rile up the community with their unsubstantiated claims.
I don't believe the friend of the officer is being considered a witness to the actual event by anyone. She is of course a witness with regard to the telling of his account.
Ninja Scooter
Member
You can already see a bit of the Zimmerman defense starting to rear it's head. Brown was this monstrous behemoth and Wilson was just a scared little man what was he supposed to do!?! Nevermind the fact that he was (supposed to be) a trained police officer who should be able to deal with these kinds of situations without resorting to blasting everything in sight. Wilson is probably gaining weight as we speak.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
It was only a robbery because they got into a pushing match with the owner. It was more shoplifting than robbery in a common sense way of looking at it.
Dude, pretty much every kid I knew in my hometown nicked a few candybars from the local gas station. We also got into plenty of fights over stupid shit. Hell, I was arrested when I was 13 for vandalizing a train station.
Does that make me a potential danger?
BronsonLee
Member
'I'm Too Fat To Die!'
Yeah, there's a lot of character assassination going on here, but it seems the media is keen on it this go round and is more concerned with covering the protests/ridiculous response from the police
If he drew his gun and fired it at Brown as he's walking away, then he's the instigator in that situation, and everything goes completely fucking sideways then. They'd have to argue why he drew his gun in the first place.
tldr; it's a damn crapshoot right now.
I only heard about it from MSNBC but no one has confirmed. Not even CNN.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-...hooting-grand-jury-probe-starts-tomorrow.html
Article said:
Best I got.
BronsonLee
Member
Some pie-in-the-sky speculation on my part, based on previous things like this.
Do Ferguson police officers carry tasers? Is it possible that Wilson thought he grabbed that when Brown was running away, but shot at him instead?
Then cue Brown realizing he's being shot at, go 'wtf', then charge? Wilson has no time to switch to the taser, so he empties the clip instead?
Do Ferguson police officers carry tasers? Is it possible that Wilson thought he grabbed that when Brown was running away, but shot at him instead?
Then cue Brown realizing he's being shot at, go 'wtf', then charge? Wilson has no time to switch to the taser, so he empties the clip instead?
Steve Youngblood
Member
It's a highly implausible story given the information we are privy to now, but if both of the following happened:
A.) He sustained serious injuries during an initial altercation before Brown retreated.
and
B.) There are multiple eyewitnesses corroborating that he continued to advance despite warnings as though he didn't perceive the officer as a threat.
Then I can see where this gets dicey. I'm not saying that I suddenly think that he's off the hook and stop questioning what else he might have been able to do aside from popping off multiple rounds. I'm just saying that if that account becomes increasingly plausible due to new evidence and alternative eyewitness accounts, I would personally have to be a little more neutral about the situation in terms of waiting to see how the investigation proceeds.
And by that, I don't mean that I'd suddenly take the police evidence at face value and discount the eyewitnesses describing Brown being gunned down after surrendering. But I'm just saying that if -- and that's a might big IF -- evidence corroborates the officer's account of things, assaulting and injuring a police officer and then later advancing on him presents a wildly different scenario compared to "he was shot with his hands in the air."
Again, I want to make it clear that this isn't an "I'm starting to believe Wilson's account more than the other eyewitnesses" post. I'm just saying that if that's where the dust ultimately settles, then I think a different conversation results. I think there's still a dialog worth having in terms of training police in less lethal tactics for subduing suspects. But we can't pretend that the conversation is unchanged if we ultimately transition from a story wherein an unarmed man is shot at while fleeing and gunned down after surrendering to a story wherein an unarmed man attacks officer while trying to take his gun, temporarily flees, and then doubles back to charge at officer that is now perceived as less threatening due to sustaining injury.
Doesn't really explain why someone would charge at a dude shooting at him though. :-/
Haven't heard of any of them using tasers and no dashcams. Guess they used all their money on tear gas.
It all comes down to money, many police forces have seen budget cuts, you buy what ever is cheapest. With all the surplus from the past few wars, camo gear is cheap. Its all a sad situation, but these thing happen. With budget cuts some are seeing, the quality is going down, along with the amount of training given to an officer.
ShironRedshift
Member
Which is absurd. If an unarmed individual charging at them, not just a bit scared or nervous or whatever, but honestly scared for their lives to the point where they have to draw and unload their firearms... an unarmed, single individual causing fear to that degree... These are the people we expect to protect us when we need help the most? People that get spooked that easily and so that quickly jump to using lethal force? I'm not sure what would scare me more in that case--the fact that our law enforcement officers are apparently so easily spooked that they're able to use such a thing as a defense and we're supposed to expect these people to protect us or how quick they are to jump to lethal force at all. Both aspects are terrifying.
And yeah, I read that. I've pretty much been lurking in this thread from the very beginning. It's great that it ends on such an optimistic note and I can only hope that incidents such as did provide the fuel necessary to get similar attempts at change helping all across the country. It's jut kind of hard to stay optimistic in the mean time though is all, while these kind of tragedies keep happening before that stuff is able to get off the ground and start having an actual impact. That kinda of change just really can't come soon enough.
BronsonLee
Member
I took out the other stuff from your post just for length's sake, but I absolutely agree. If he doesn't get charged, this shit is going supernova, but if he does, I think it'll settle down and there will be a lull in things while information is dispersed. That being said, it seems to be rather unlikely that Brown assaulted Wilson (at least with his fists/body), because the autopsy showed no signs of such. The only thing I can think of him doing is slamming the car door on Wilson, and that would be...odd.
Regarding B, that's important too, especially whether or not Wilson gave any warning.
Exactly. That's where this whole thing falls apart. What would possess Brown to do that? We don't even know Wilson's account, but if that's what it is, he's got a hell of a lot of explaining to do.
I remember reading they had dashcams, but hadn't installed them yet?
jim-jam bongs
Member
In general the term witness is used in the non-literal sense when it comes to legal matters, hence the existence of the term eyewitness. The former refers to someone who provides testimony in support of facts which don't require them to have witnessed the event, like the medical examiner or a ballistic expert. The latter term of course is reserved for someone who actually saw what happened.
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