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[electricpirate]

Ya know, believing that harrasment extend past games doesn't really give you a pass to ignore it, blame the victim, or otherwise validate it.

You have the power to influence the culture you are in, so start there.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

I'm pretty sure at this point that someone could be filmed and arrested breaking into a developer's home, charged, put on trial, and convicted, and there'd still be people putting together MS Paint collages claiming that it's a fake designed to garner sympathy

 

[abaldwin360]

well, apparently we're all "dumb-as-shit useful tools" (and I quote directly) for NOT believing this is fake.

Of course, the only question remaining would be: why would Phil Fish do this? Internet attention? Sure. This "fake hack" conspiracy bullshit falls under its own weight.

I love how the quote on the imgur link says, "Proof that Phil Fish faked a 4chan hack of his website" when there is not any "proof" at all.

At best it's all speculation. At best. Yet so many people want to jump on it.

 

[Sylas]

You really think this is a valid comparison?

How is it not a valid comparison? There have been reports of celebrities having their online presences hacked and private information being displayed all over the place. A quick Google search for something like "Kanye West Hacked" brings up results of this. There are frequently reports of people sending death threats to celebrities, hanging out outside of their houses, etc.

I'm on mobile or I would post links to examples.

Edit: I feel it's important to state again that I condemn anyone that acts this way. I'm just saying that it's short-sighted to say that it's abnormal and specific to games.

 

[chaosaeon]

I missed quite a bit of these things, how much of the story of everything that lead to this is actually true ? Or can we not talk about it ? Don't know if that's been said before. What are we allowed to, and not allowed to talk about in this thread ?

 

[Hoje0308]

A large percentage of the gaming community is teen - young adult males that think that because they have the anonymity of the internet in front of them they can say and do whatever the fuck they want.

You're obviously going to get bad eggs in every community but there are a lot of bad eggs in the gaming community because of the primary target audience. The target audience that is fed white male protagonists and shitty female characters and LGBT stereotypes and white saviour stories that do nothing to broaden their horizons or understanding of the world.

As long as devs continue to cater to these people, the gaming community will still consist of these people and they will feel that any deviation from the norm, be it feminism, LGBT activism, or racial equality etc is something that is reserved for crazy nut job "social justice warriors" who are trying to shit on the things they love.

I like this, a lot. Well done.

 

[electricpirate]

Gamers are awful but until there's an assassination attempt on Phil Fish...

Man! that's quite a bar to clear. This harrasment isn't as bad as violent extremists!

 

[Krejlooc]

It's a good point. I think it's correct to say that most indie developers are left in a really difficult position.

I'm not sure how you really avoid getting the shitstorm of the internet thrown your way. As a dev, do you just keep your head down and avoid getting caught in the muck heap that is social issues in games, even if you feel passionate about these issues? Block and report abusive tweets you get thrown your way?

Really, really thick skin and self control. Before I was part of an actual team putting out actual products, I was much more likely to comment on anything and everything. Now, virtually everything I post online, in general, I filter with "how will this reflect on my team and product?"

Anything really controversial, like religion, politics, etc? No comment at all, any comment will incite anger. Try to stay as non-personal as possible. When people insult you or get belligerent, ignore them hope they fall off.

It's extremely tough to do. That's not to say one shouldn't express an opinion or engage their public, but you basically can never show that it's getting to you. Everybody is human, though, and everybody slips up and falls prey to petty argumentation. But being able to "let go" is a virtue.

In the end, I guess my newer mindset is sort of a lesson learned from over 20 years of being on the internet: "winning a pointless argument is pointless."

 

[Zomba13]

How is it not a valid comparison? There have been reports of celebrities having their online presences hacked and private information being displayed all over the place. A quick Google search for something like "Kanye West Hacked" brings up results of this. There are frequently reports of people sending death threats to celebrities, hanging out outside of their houses, etc.

I'm on mobile or I would post links to examples.

Even with examples you might get banned for claiming that other communities can be just as vile as the gaming communities.

 

[duessano]

I'm pretty sure at this point that someone could be filmed and arrested breaking into a developer's home, charged, put on trial, and convicted, and there'd still be people putting together MS Paint collages claiming that it's a fake designed to garner sympathy

Only if it Phil Fish. I doubt people wouldn't feel sympathy for someone at BioWare or Notch, but this Fish guy has really raised peoples hackles.

 

[fadetoblack]

I'm pretty sure at this point that someone could be filmed and arrested breaking into a developer's home, charged, put on trial, and convicted, and there'd still be people putting together MS Paint collages claiming that it's a fake designed to garner sympathy

Seriously, the best part of this whole colossal disaster of a week has been seeing Facebook/Twitter screenshots marked up with red and purple text. Genuinely hilarious in how profound the creators must think they are, but in how silly it actually looks. The thought of children and their crayons came up more than a few times in my mind. It's all "LOOK LOOK EVIDENCEEEEEEE."

 

[Dlink16]

The internet is messed up. I'm quitting as soon as I don't need it anymore

 

[Japanmanx3]

I missed quite a bit of these things, how much of the story of everything that lead to this is actually true ? Or can we not talk about it ? Don't know if that's been said before. What are we allowed to, and not allowed to talk about in this thread ?

Yeah. I need a unbiased rundown before I can comment further...

 

[PsychoSoldier]

I'm pretty sure at this point that someone could be filmed and arrested breaking into a developer's home, charged, put on trial, and convicted, and there'd still be people putting together MS Paint collages claiming that it's a fake designed to garner sympathy

I feel like this is the sort of thing that the internet in general has made much worse all around.

People have always tried to find sources to justify their beliefs but the exponential amount of access to an audience has given voice to so much misinformation and incomplete information of so many types that it's likely had an eroding effect on discourse of all kinds, especially political.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

I like this, a lot. Well done.

Thanks

 

[Pyroclastic]

The internet is messed up. I'm quitting as soon as I don't need it anymore

set a remind me post for like 70 years time

 

[Patryn]

I missed quite a bit of these things, how much of the story of everything that lead to this is actually true ? Or can we not talk about it ? Don't know if that's been said before. What are we allowed to, and not allowed to talk about in this thread ?

Yeah. I need a unbiased rundown before I can comment further...

That subject was already beaten to death in this locked thread.

 

[TheHollowNight]

Me too, which is a shame.

It's been a very hard week for game developers like myself, journalists and the gaming community. No doubt that this will have huge ramifications about the respect involved between all parties. The general malaise among everyone I know in the industry is worrying. There is a real fear & perception that anyone is fair game for being targeted now for speaking up about anything, or tackling more social/personal issues in the gaming spectrum, especially in the independent scene.

I know everyone has been throwing the blame back and forth for the cause of this, and it's very hard to not feel jilted by how toxic the community can get. I know it's a vocal minority, but it's proven to be overwhelmingly vocal and capable of systematically targeting an individual to silence them.

Game developers are doing there best though to not remain spiteful, I've been part of the #screenshotrelief & #welovegamedevs topics on Twitter, where people are showing their support to developers and to remind each other why we love games or make games - for all the right reasons. I know it won't go far to subdue the repercussions of what's happened. But at the end of the day, everyone needs to support one another in this instead of trying to rip each other apart.

 

[Krejlooc]

Honestly, I just can't see a good solution. No matter what you do, angry and dumb people will shout into the crowd and eventually gain traction. It's a problem pretty inherent to any large gathering of people, either in real life or the internet.

I know actual marketing budgets are not viable for most indie developers, but people like Dan Adelmann might end up being more and more necessary. Someone, or someones, to handle the consumer-facing elements that are not the product itself. I mean, it's easy to hate on PR-talk, but knowing how to speak to a crowd without pissing someone off is an actual, valuable skill. There is value in having a faceless blockade between you, the developer, and the knee-jerk mob.

You're correct, a buffer between the team and the public can be a good thing for mental health. However, that can also be detrimental in that it can keep you from constructive criticism, lead to conflicts of interest, etc. It's never really cut and dry. Plus, personally, part of the indie life style I like is the ability to micromanage every bit of the operation. Not to mention that it'll likely be unrealistic for many indie operations to hire a dedicated PR guy in general.

Once you grow big enough, I think it becomes inevitable that you'll need a PR face, but at the level I'm talking about, self-control should be enough.

take this very post for example, lol - I just deleted like 2/3 of my post because I realized I was commenting too much on my personal views on phil fish, and when you discuss a polarizing figure like this, you will always, without fail, upset someone. So not saying anything at all is the smarter option.

 

[Vire]

Why is Renaud even bothering responding to these little shits? What a terrible situation.

 

[Krejlooc]

Why is Renaud even bothering responding to these little shits? What a terrible situation.

victims tend to get defensive, it happens. The guy and his colleagues have just been incredibly violated, and they are continuing being attacked by petulant people on twitter. It's hard not to lash back at such low hanging fruit. The act of defending yourself can be momentarily therapeutic in situations like this. With the benefit of a clearer mind, I think he'd realize he probably should just ignore those tweets, though.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

It's actually getting pretty out of hand how much of a backlash there is these days whenever one makes a suggestion that there might be inequality or injustice within western societies. Social Justice Warrior has become some kind of rallying cry for privileged people who take umbrage at the suggestion that they might have had things easier than someone else, and I'm not even sure all the people who do it are actually bigots either. It's like the US has become so divided and frustrated, that it's started a war on itself.

 

[Curufinwe]

A large percentage of the gaming community is teen - young adult males that think that because they have the anonymity of the internet in front of them they can say and do whatever the fuck they want.

You're obviously going to get bad eggs in every community but there are a lot of bad eggs in the gaming community because of the primary target audience. The target audience that is fed white male protagonists and shitty female characters and LGBT stereotypes and white saviour stories that do nothing to broaden their horizons or understanding of the world.

I've yet to see any evidence whatsoever that teenage males with internet access who aren't interested in videogames behave any better. The link between games like Assassin's Creed and extreme, anti-social behavior is tenuous at best.

 

[Chinner]

This is depressing and pretty pathetic. There is no justification for this at all and I imagine most of the people involved this are still children with a self-inflated sense of importance. There isn't even a point to this, just a collection of buzzwords, lack of thought and critical thinking.

 

[Vire]

Seeing tweets like this just breaks my heart.

 

[Sylas]

You're correct, a buffer between the team and the public can be a good thing for mental health. However, that can also be detrimental in that it can keep you from constructive criticism, lead to conflicts of interest, etc. It's never really cut and dry. Plus, personally, part of the indie life style I like is the ability to micromanage every bit of the operation. Not to mention that it'll likely be unrealistic for many indie operations to hire a dedicated PR guy in general.

Once you grow big enough, I think it becomes inevitable that you'll need a PR face, but at the level I'm talking about, self-control should be enough.

take this very post for example, lol - I just deleted like 2/3 of my post because I realized I was commenting too much on my personal views on phil fish, and when you discuss a polarizing figure like this, you will always, without fail, upset someone. So not saying anything at all is the smarter option.

I agree. Impulse and self-control are the biggest things to remember. It's a shame that it is (understandably, in some cases) difficult to not lash out when it's just so easy to do so with Twitter and tumblr.

I do think something that can do a lot of good, for those of us not involved on development, is to just be a kinder person online. Grab a developer you like on Twitter and just say something nice to them. I genuinely think that a lot of difference can be made just through a random act of kindness on a more personal level rather than just being kind when there's a trending hashtag and yelling nice things into the void.

 

[fadetoblack]

Not a developer myself (what is maths?), but I can't imagine that this shit show is making anyone want to embrace the community with open arms. Or games writing either for that matter. Has anyone visited Ben Kuchera's twitter conversations lately? 50% vitriol, peppered with a quarter each of legitimate questions and groupies. Who wants to be part of such a community?

As an aside, this thread has been full of good discussion. Genuinely insightful. Hello to all the devs who have congregated in this thread!

Edit. THIS:

Seeing tweets like this just breaks my heart.

 

[Japanmanx3]

Seeing tweets like this just breaks my heart.

Smh...and I love Olly. Jeez.

 

[doomquake]

I feel like adding my opinion since there is a lot of weird notions happening that fish did it himself:

You can easily lose control of your cloudflare acct. Double login with a phone is optional.

The contents of the stolen data could easily have come from one place. I highly doubt a thief took the time to place data into folders.

One thing I don't get is why would store such sensitive data on a trashy host like cloudflare.

 

[Curufinwe]

Not a developer myself (what is maths?), but I can't imagine that this shit show is making anyone want to embrace the community with open arms. Or games writing either for that matter. Has anyone visited Ben Kuchera's twitter conversations lately? 50% vitriol, peppered with a quarter each of legitimate questions and groupies. Who wants to be part of such a community?

Vitriol in Kuchera's twitter feed? The poor guy.

 

[RoKKeR]

I highly dislike Phil Fish but this is a shitty situation.

 

[GremlinFool]

I've yet to see any evidence whatsoever that teenage males with internet access who aren't interested in videogames behave any better. The link between games like Assassin's Creed and extreme, anti-social behavior is tenuous at best.

It's more that those who take an active interest in the hobby (i.e. post about games on the internet, participate vigorously in online game communities, etc.) tend to not have the level of socialization you'd expect from a typical teen with other hobbies.

For example, you don't exactly see teens taking a liking towards film, photography, or music prove en masse to be completely incapable of empathy or normal human interaction like you broadly see in the gaming community.

 

[maquiladora]

What a fucking mess.

 

[10k]

Fuckin kids these days. I hope someone doxx me and reveals my nudes on GAF.

*whispers in a soft voice* So do I big boy

 

[aly]

It stinks, but I wonder if a bigger buffer between devs, journalists, and the community is needed. PR can be annoying, but maybe there should be more distance between the three entities.

 

[Keby]

One thing I don't get is why would store such sensitive data on a trashy host like cloudflare.

Could have just been poor planning, but yeah it's one of the things that sticks out to me as really weird. Why would so much sensitive info be in one place?

 

[ashecitism]

Seeing tweets like this just breaks my heart.

@ollymoss Good. Maybe devs will respect their customer base more.

oh ffs

 

[paolo11]

Seeing tweets like this just breaks my heart.

Damn.

It is really sad.

 

[Faustek]

That subject was already beaten to death in this locked thread.

That thread man...first I laughed at the responses given by support.
Then I got sad when I tried to catch up on it.
Then I got proud of being part of NeoGAF(Thank the mods)
Then I laughed my bum off as some posters tipped the scales and really showed how silly the topic actually was.
And once again I felt a bit proud of NeoGAF as many users showed that there exists some really intelligent and witty users out there.

It's been a very conflicting week. Ferguson, Foley, ZQ, Local Racist/Misogynist/Homophobes, this shit. It's made me a bit ashamed of being a "gamer" and at the same time it's made me proud of being part of it.

Yes, I hold games that high as I use it to actually get away from a lot of shit. It also helped me bond with family members.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

I feel like adding my opinion since there is a lot of weird notions happening that fish did it himself:

You can easily lose control of your cloudflare acct. Double login with a phone is optional.

The contents of the stolen data could easily have come from one place. I highly doubt a thief took the time to place data into folders.

One thing I don't get is why would store such sensitive data on a trashy host like cloudflare.

Could just have been an attack vector. They might have had a way to tunnel into their office LAN for remote work, for example.

 

[Sylas]

It's more that those who take an active interest in the hobby (i.e. post about games on the internet, participate vigorously in online game communities, etc.) tend to not have the level of socialization you'd expect from a typical teen with other hobbies.

For example, you don't exactly see teens taking a liking towards film, photography, or music prove en masse to be completely incapable of empathy or normal human interaction like you broadly see in the gaming community.

I think it's a more generalized "problem" than that. There was a thread in OT a few weeks back that summed it up really well. It was about a woman that was getting separated from her husband because she "caught" him trolling, and when she asked him to stop he outright refused. His reasoning was that these people aren't really real to him.

People don't consider other people on the internet "real" in a lot of cases. They can't really effect them in a way that could be considered traditional (ie: talk shit, get hit) and thus behave in otherwise miserable ways.

I had an ex that genuinely believed that people on the internet existed for her entertainment and nothing else. So why would someone with that mindset treat anyone with a modicum of respect?

 

[Curufinwe]

It's more that those who take an active interest in the hobby (i.e. post about games on the internet, participate vigorously in online game communities, etc.) tend to not have the level of socialization you'd expect from a typical teen with other hobbies.

For example, you don't exactly see teens taking a liking towards film, photography, or music prove en masse to be completely incapable of empathy or normal human interaction like you broadly see in the gaming community.

What are you basing that on exactly? Extensive studies of music and film forums where a lot of teenagers post??

I have never been to 4chan, but I have to assume not everyone there is into videogames. Do the people who never post about videogames there act noticeably better than the people who do?

 

[ANuclearError]

Anyone who doesn't think that this problem isn't something fairly unique to gaming needs to wake up.

This doesn't happen in theatre, opera, film, academia, literature, whatever. That's not an exaggeration. It doesn't. Even at their most vitriolic, I've never seen any creator/critic from any of those industries have their private lives publicly displayed for all to abuse. It's embarrassing. Well, I'm truly embarrassed.

Video games is a medium that is displaying all the right signs of maturity: self-reference and parody, discussion of complicated themes and issues, confluence of visual aesthetic and gameplay mechanics, purposeful adaptation of art styles. And yet the level of immaturity that pervades the community is frightening, destructive, and hateful.

It doesn't exactly fill me with hope.

In terms of whether or not this problem is exclusive to gaming, l I've found that it is rather evident in sports at least. As my avatar suggests, I'm a fan of Celtic Football Club, whose previous manager Neil Lennon had bomb threats in the mail and in one instance attacked in the middle of a match. I do not believe I've seen anything along the lines of Doxxing, but I've seen various reports on how Lennon required full time security protection for him and his family because of utter deplorable people. So I don't think these issues are a gaming exclusive problem, but we need to do our part to fix it. In another example, One Direction fans on Twitter made threats to a footballer due to an incident in a charity match.

 

[Sylas]

What are you basing that on exactly? Extensive studies of music and film forums where a lot of teenagers post??

I have never been to 4chan, but I have to assume not everyone there is into videogames. Do the people who never post about videogames there act noticeably better than the people who do?

The long and short of it is, no. Hell, the video game board can arguably be one of the saner one on occasion.

 

[gngf123]

Seeing tweets like this just breaks my heart.

Honestly, this goes for aspiring gamedevs as well.

I normally don't talk about it on GAF, especially since I'm too busy with other stuff going on right now to really show anything of note, but I absolutely love games and I've put a fair bit of effort in during my free time learning how to make them. I've even had the first hints of the feeling of seeing someone enjoy what you make.

The more shit I see, the more I wonder if it's even worth it. The industry is terrible, and the internet is a hatred spreading mess. I feel like I'm better off continuing with what I'm currently doing, which will end up with me doing more scientific programming, than I would be if I actually tried to follow my own interests and make games. Less shit to deal with.

 

[PsychoSoldier]

It's more that those who take an active interest in the hobby (i.e. post about games on the internet, participate vigorously in online game communities, etc.) tend to not have the level of socialization you'd expect from a typical teen with other hobbies.

For example, you don't exactly see teens taking a liking towards film, photography, or music prove en masse to be completely incapable of empathy or normal human interaction like you broadly see in the gaming community.

People say some pretty vile, awful things to musicans and actors on a pretty regular basis.

We see more of our hobby's nastiness than other hobbies because we're in the thick of it.

 

[Ovek]

Ouch I bet this isn't helping Phil Fish and his obvious bipolar problems.

 

[fadetoblack]

Vitriol in Kuchera's twitter feed? The poor guy.

Oh, I'm no Kuchera apologist! The piracy stuff with Kain was a farce, especially since he recently talked about "bending the law" with the Star Wars "unedited" versions. He deserves those critiques, absolutely. Still, gets a lot of just pure hatred. You can see how defensive he has to be in his responses: he gets stuck blocking and ignoring the legit criticisms because they got lost in the violent noise thrust his way.

Probably a better example would be Patrick Klepek. Writes intelligently, willing to accept criticism, does his best to practice what he preaches, and then gets assaulted with jokes about his dead father. I suppose even that's better than what's happening to Polytron folks, but, Christ, is that how low I'm setting the bar here?

 

[Kyou]

@ollymoss Good. Maybe devs will respect their customer base more.

oh ffs

From the Dorito stained keyboard in the den of my parent's house I stab at thee!

 

[mnz]

oh ffs

How can that second guy have a Papers, Please avatar?