perfectsil
Member
and why does it need to be a "monitor"? who doesn't have a 2nd or 3rd TV in the house at this point? if you don't want to hook up to the living room TV, hook it up to other TVs
Why haven't you bought a PC yet?
- Thread starter Gipsy Danger
- Start date
and why does it need to be a "monitor"? who doesn't have a 2nd or 3rd TV in the house at this point? if you don't want to hook up to the living room TV, hook it up to other TVs
ClaptoVaughn
Member
I think it's just because the living room TV is typically the largest one in a house, so people instinctively go to that for entertainment.
I don't see how this addresses my point. I see how it addresses other people's position, but not mine. I am arguing that the number of people who don't own a monitor or a TV they are willing to hook their PC up to and also who weren't going to be buying a PC/monitor for work purposes anyway are relatively few.
Just as there aren't that many people who wouldn't own a TV without console gaming. There are some (including at least one in this thread), but not very many.
Out of curiosity, do you happen to have numbers on roughly how many of those are private vs. company owned? I have a Windows machine (incl monitor) sitting in my office. That doesn't mean I could use that display for my gaming rig. And again, this is just anecdotal, but I constantly see desktops/monitors in offices, but less and less often in people's homes. Would be interesting to have some numbers.
I'm just not convinced that that number is as small as you seem to think. Even if it's just, let's just say, a few percent, that's still a fair number of people who would have to add the cost of a monitor to the cost of a PC, so definitely not such an outlandish exception as some people make it out to be.
Very true. I bought a new 1080p TV when I bought the PS4, and if you include that in the cost of the console, it's by far the most expensive system I own.
The point is, though, that you can't make a general statement along the lines of PC/console gaming is cheaper, because people do/don't have a monitor/TV anyway. If somebody gives cost of hardware as a reason to not have a PC and includes the monitor in that cost, you can point out that they may want to check if they can hook it up to their TV, but you can't dismiss it as an unfair comparison, as Gipsy Danger did above, because for that person, it may indeed be required.
Barack Lesnar
Banned
The AD TF mid train continues
*AHEM*
Sorry.
Let me ask you a few questions. Would you agree that *most* people who are buying a first time gaming PC would not be hooking it up to their living room? There are no studies done on this, I can't recite data, but would you agree a majority would use a monitor and not their TV? I think so. If you don't agree, then feel free to stop reading because that's the basis of my point.
New PC gamers probably aren't going to own a good 23"+ widescreen 1080p monitor unless they had a modern PC already, 23" being a minimum imo, it's a good standard size. When I bought my gaming PC I had a 19" 4:3 LCD monitor. Before that I had a monster 17" CRT. Calling my situation "rare" just doesn't sound accurate to me. Can you say that if you went to friends houses today who are gamers have a non-gaming desktop PC... can you say that most of them have a 23"+ widescreen monitor? Maybe yours do, I dunno, but as a general assumption I doubt most people have a monitor like that at the ready for a new gaming PC. Most people have laptops and tablets now. Non-gaming desktops are an increasingly niche market outside of business and school settings. That's a fact. Most potential new PC gamers aren't going to have that monitor, so why not include it in the price? Again, I'm talking about NEW PC gamers. If you're just getting a new gaming PC after a few years odds are you'll have a decent widescreen LCD.
I'm assuming by the caps lock this is sarcasm? You can't be seriously expecting people to play LoL on the Steam controller and be competitive at all. But again, I've never tried one so who knows?
Zen_Arcade
Banned
I didn't say that. Remotely. I have been arguing two different points, I wasn't using one as a reasoning for the other.
1) That the majority of people don't hook up PCs to TVs and that it's silly to ask someone to try and prove that with some kind of statistic.
2) That "You can hook up a PC to a TV." isn't a defense on why people don't need a monitor, because there are a lot of people that are in a situation where hooking up a their PC to a TV isn't a viable option in the first place, so they would indeed need a monitor.
In fact, if you needed more proof that my argument was indeed what I said it was, all you have to do is read my last posts on the last page.
I do not.
I don't think it's something we can meaningfully quibble about.
Absolutely, it depends on how the discussion is framed. Some people frame the discussion as if the monitor should naturally be included in cost, suggesting that the typical user would need to buy a monitor for a new PC. That is cause for argument. If people are just saying that they personally would need to buy a monitor, that cannot be argued with and is entirely reasonable. Different situations for different people.
I'd just emphasize this difference and point out it's a common problem in arguments: some people argue purely from their personal perspective, but others try to argue from the perspective of everyone or the perspective of the average person. Each of those can produce different results.
Hey since we're having a discussion about having to buy new TVs for our console, I did just that when I bought my Xbox One. I was a super early adopter of HDTVs and my previous big screen TV in the living room lacked HDMI, component and VGA only. I actually bought a new 55" HDTV after I bought my Xbox One because I was unaware that I needed an HDMI input. I am actually one of these people.
But I'd never add the cost of my TV to my Xbox One purchase.
But I'd never add the cost of my TV to my Xbox One purchase.
SneakyStephan
Banned
Wii U + PC is definitely the best combination for gamers right now.
I remember buying my ps3 in a large part for the promise of console 3d platformers after enjoying the genre so much on sega consoles and psx + ps2 + gamecube before.
(boy that was a mistake huh
) You give a compelling reason to own a wii u though (a system that most people on gaf show no regard for)
This always gets conveniently left out in these threads.
Chances are you already have a desktop at home that you use for browsing (with 300+ million OEM desktop pcs being sold every year you are ùuch more likely to have one than not)
And that core i3 internet pc you bought a few years ago is just the price of a game + a year of xbox live away from being a gaming pc. (plop in some cheap gaming gpu)
And are some posters really using the 'you need to buy a monitor' thing again? wow... another pc ownership thread has gone full circle.
Guess what heavy, I bought a 1500 euro 40" samsung tv just for my ps3 (was using an old 28" crt tv with my ps2 before), but I'm not stupid enough to count in in the cost of console gaming.
You forgot to add the cost of that comfy couch btw (1800 euros for a leather sofa in my case) , because every console gamer know the most important thing about console gaming is comfy couch! A simple desk chair costs 10 times cheaper! Wow
You're going to need a house to put the couch in and some land to build the house on too.
You're gona need a job to buy the house so you need to count a college education, and if you live in america that's about another 100 grand. (yes your argument is so stupid heavy that it deserves being dragged through the mud like this)
I do not believe most people hook their PCs up to living room TVs, and I'm willing to agree that I don't need a study to prove it.
I think it is, yes. PC desktops are definitely smaller than they used to be, but that's a relative position from absolute total global dominance. There are literally hundreds of millions of Windows desktops in the world right now -- 300 million were sold just last year -- and that's without including Macs or Linux boxes. If desktop machines are "niche," then I can certainly see why someone would call console gaming a "niche" market at this point.
You are pointing out that TVs are used for another purpose; watching movies. We are pointing out that desktop PCs are also used for other purposes; work. Facebook. Email.
So now the standard must also include 5) is not satisfied with their old 19'' non-widescreen monitor.
I think most people are fine with that. Just as most people don't feel the need to get a brand new TV just because they got a new video game console with even better resolution. If they do feel that need, well then the number of people who needed to buy a TV for their new console just skyrocketed.
Barack Lesnar
Banned
Just as an aside, most of the time when talking about broad subjects like this in the gaming industry I speak as if I was looking at the general gaming population, not me specifically. I actually don't like to read personal anecdotes in broad threads like these because they're kind of irrelevant. My previous posts have all been looking at it in the broader sense, although you seem to have thought I was just talking about my case specifically about needing to buy a monitor. No, I think most people will need to buy a monitor (reasons outlined in my last post).
Zen_Arcade
Banned
Edit: I just reread what you typed. I think you should absolutely factor that price into your purchase. If you didn't you wouldn't have anything to play the system on.
Gipsy Danger
Member
Could you explain a situation where a small form factor PC is not a viable option but a console is? Surely if you can't fit one then you can't fit the other.
CosmicQueso
Member
Yep, my Alienware X51 looks quite nice right next to my Xone and PS4.
I did from time to time. Playing in the lounge is pretty much just like it is playing any console at this point for me when using a controller. A bit fumbly to use a mouse and keyboard but it does work very well, particularly if you're sat where the sofa arm rests are (dependant on handedness), not ideal but definitely better than a controller when I want a mouse's accuracy. However now I find that I will happily stream to the other rooms since in-home streaming is working so well. I highly prefer to use a controller unless I know I will play for a long stretch in which case I'm more comfortable at a desk with mouse and keyboard but will happily do either way depending on what's happening at home. Each to their own though I guess.
A working Steam controller, if it actually is good enough, would just make living room gaming a certainty for me. Anything more closer to a mouse than analogue sticks and that I can use well will be amazing
Barack Lesnar
Banned
How many of those desktop PCs are in business and school settings? That's the key. I guarantee you that home desktop PCs that are NOT gaming PCs are going the way of the dodo. I don't have that many friends to be honest but the ones I do have all have laptops, ALL of them. Granted, about 2/3 of them are female which is a demo that's obviously a minority in PC gaming, but still I bet the same scenario plays out across the globe.
Corporate and school settings? Desktops are king and will continue to be.
Home setting? Dodo.
Like I said previously, those home non-gaming desktop PCs have to be going extinct.
Minsc
Gold Member
Isn't this a good thing though? Buying another display is an opportunity to introduce new features in to your gaming experiences that aren't possible with your current HDTV. Plus, you can get 23" monitors for like $50 these days on sale, maybe less if you look second hand. Look at the positive aspects instead.
If there's a will there's a way, but the problem is there simply isn't a will.
SneakyStephan
Banned
You will never catch up to his endless goalpost moving, ever. And he will never aknowledge any of his arguments that you shut down before he moves on to the next one.
@heavy
Btw i've been gaming on a 19" 4:3 crt for the past 12 years.
I'm an enthusiast pc gamer (as in I spend countless hours playing games on it) , I consider my glorious crt (that just broke a few weeks ago) the superior way to play games. Can't beat that pixel perfect motion and zero input lag.
Didn't know suddenly I required a 23" monitor to play games, didn't quite get that memo.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
My entertainment center is full. It's not about the size of the machine as it is that I just don't have room, and to make room I'd have to take things I already use down. It wouldn't be any different if I wanted to buy an Xbox One.
There were also a lot of different reasons in that thread you (I'm pretty sure it was you) posted asking why more people didn't hook their PCs up to their TVs.
Barack Lesnar
Banned
It's a great thing. I love my monitor and am so happy I went 23" instead of smaller. I've used it for countless hours and it's never even had a hiccup.
But the current discussion was about the price barrier of entry into PC gaming for new potential customers.
Gipsy Danger
Member
That's just you though. I do have room. Anecdotal evidence is useless.
Barack Lesnar
Banned
Alright, if you think the 23" minimum was a goalpost moving argument, please respond to this as it's the core reason why I think most NEW PC gamers are going to end up buying a monitor, therefore adding to the cost of entry:
On another note, I had no idea some hardcore PC gamers were still on 4:3 19" monitors. That's not a diss on you at all, I legit had no clue.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
My entire argument has been that you can't just make a blanket statement like "You don't need a monitor to play PC games." because there is a ton of other factors for individuals that make that statement not true. I'm well aware it's anecdotal evidence, my entire point is that you need to factor in anecdotal evidence when someone is telling you why they personally don't want to own a PC.
Gipsy Danger
Member
This argument wasn't about people not wanting PCs. It was about not having to factor in the price of a monitor. And you don't because you don't need one, same as a console. So anecdotal evidence is useless. If you can't make a blanket statement like that then the same is true of a console.
It's because CRT is blur free with decent high refresh rates.
Most of these folks using these probably aren't aware of lots of new options, or don't have the budget for a 120/144Hz TN/VA monitor with strobing.
In my case i have a huge desk with my PC/PS3. Behind the chair, i have a small sofa. So if i want to use a pad, i just move back to the sofa. I find weird that people wants to game in a "shared" place. I can understand the lack of space tho.
Barack Lesnar
Banned
I see...
Ignoring gaming for a minute, even just doing basic stuff on a 4:3 19" like web-surfing, watching movies, Office, Photoshop, would be brutal. I couldn't go back to that. @_@
Zen_Arcade
Banned
Some people do need to factor that in. I would need to buy one. You repeatedly telling me I don't doesn't mean anything. YOU might not need to buy a monitor, but I would and it's money I would have to factor in if I ever wanted to get into PC gaming. Anecdotal evidence means a lot when you're trying to personally convince me to buy something or trying to convince me my reasoning for not wanting a PC is wrong.
I never made a blanket statement. I merely pointed out that your blanket statement is false. I never once said that every one needs a monitor to play PC games. I only said that SOME PEOPLE do and that it's unfair to make blanket statements otherwise as if it's some kind of defense for your reasoning.
Barack Lesnar
Banned
On the other hand, I did make sweeping statements, which I believe to be based on common sense. Bottom line:
* Most new PC gamers are not going to hook their PC up to their big-screen TV in their living room. No data to back this up, but I think it's an obvious conclusion
* Most non-gaming desktop PCs are in corporate and school settings, or at least it's heavily trending that way. Again, no data on this, but I think it's an obvious conclusion to make. Most people have a laptop and/or a tablet, meaning they don't have a suitable monitor to use for a potential gaming PC.
Both of these points above are why I believe *most* new PC gamers will be purchasing a monitor with their PC, which is why ignoring that monitor in the price of entry makes for an inaccurate total.
Can you just hook it up to your TV? Yeah, but I'm speaking in a broad sense on what I think most people will do, which is an important point to make in these debates.
TeddyShardik
Banned
I'm not knowledgable enough to build one(Like, I'm terrified of parts not being compatible with one another or something) and too poor for the initial cost at the moment anyway.
Same applies to current gen consoles though.
That said, when my financial situation clears up a bit I'll probably ask a friend for help and get down to building a PC before I think about buying another console.
Same applies to current gen consoles though.
That said, when my financial situation clears up a bit I'll probably ask a friend for help and get down to building a PC before I think about buying another console.
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
My local school district is already starting to get rid of their desktops for iPads. I'm sure it's not the only one as the shift is inevitable.
Edit: It makes you wonder how much it may effect component makers?
derExperte
Member
Maybe some day in the far future. There's still an unbelievable number of them around and despite contracting new sales (though it looks like the bottom has been reached while tablets aren't booming as they once were) that will remain to be the case for decades. 'Extinction' couldn't be more hyperbole.
They'll more and more concentrate on the enthusiast market which is growing fast and willing to pay for quality hardware and innovations like the Oculus Rift, high end graphics cards or 140Hz monitors.
I think Heavy is more reasonable than you guys are giving credit for here.
I think eventually desktop PC will go away, Heavy. No question. I also think the console market is contracting and will also eventually disappear. But that's not right now, and it certainly wasn't 4 years ago. People have had and still have monitors for things.
Further, as the number of office desktop PCs decrease, the number of people willing and able to create HTPCs increases. I'm not sure it will be an exact replacement, mind you -- I doubt it will -- but it will also happen.
I think eventually desktop PC will go away, Heavy. No question. I also think the console market is contracting and will also eventually disappear. But that's not right now, and it certainly wasn't 4 years ago. People have had and still have monitors for things.
Further, as the number of office desktop PCs decrease, the number of people willing and able to create HTPCs increases. I'm not sure it will be an exact replacement, mind you -- I doubt it will -- but it will also happen.
Could you not have just hooked it up to your monitor
I can and have, but I got my playstation monitor aftet I got my xbox one.
It's extremely hard to quantify it, and numbers will swing willdly from research to research, but worldwide it's ~about, approx, estimated, roughly:
1100 million total PC gamers (all kinds of PCs of course, laptops, x86 misc)
800 million casual gamers
250 million core gamers
55 million of those core gamers are high end PC enthusiast gamers
http://www.gamersnexus.net/news/1318-games-industry-revenue-and-genre-popularity
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/jpr-pc-gamers-numbers-pc-gaming-dead,15530.html
And in the last few years high end PC gaming has been on a rise.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonev...ggling-pc-market-its-pc-gamers-to-the-rescue/
Barack Lesnar
Banned
I disagree. I bet you a significant percentage have laptops and/or tablets only now and that it's growing rapidly. Also, I bet that even the ones that still have non-gaming desktops with monitors... I bet those monitors aren't suitable for most enthusiast gamers, probably like 17-19", similar to the ones at schools and corporate environs. I'd love to see a statistical breakdown of this, just for home users. There's been data that includes business and school settings with home, which makes it skewed, but I can't recall seeing only home use stats.
Red Mage
Member
- Many of the games I enjoy are not on the PC.
- I hate having to adjust stuff to get the game to run properly/optimally.
- I don't have the extra cash to waste on a Gaming PC.
- I find the PC Elite Crowd more annoying than the worst console fanboy.
If I ever had the money to blow I would probably get a gaming PC, however, just because of one thing and one thing only: Mods.
Same goes for many new console gamers. I bought a TV for 1.1k$ with my PS3. But i've never add it to the cost of console gaming.
Oh and its very outdated by now, for PS4 i will be changing it for something else.
SneakyStephan
Banned
I'm not offended don't worry
I don't understand why you think the pc is going the way of the dodo.
A 20 percent decrease in OEM sales over the past few years means little when , as opiate put it, the desktop pc had 'total global domination' over households.
It still does, just a little bit less.
Your evidence is anecdotal, but those 300million OEM sales a year do not lie .
And again they don't count macs, they don't count the custom (non dell/HP brand but the store's brand) systems that every single pc store sells, they don't count the builds people do themselves.
Those custom store brand pcs are taking up market share of the big OEM's who are being tracked in these sales numbers, they will account for at least part of the drop.
My anecdotal evidence is that almost everyone I know has a desktop pc, including all the people that don't play games at all.
My brother, my grandparents, friends, parents, everyone has one. But again it's just anecdotal evidence.
I do know a bunch of people who no longer watch cable tv though, so maybe it's tvs that are going the way of the dodo and people won't have a reason to own one unless they hook up a pc or console to it.
I just have a kneejerk reaction to the 'need to buy a monitor' argument.
Even the 'need to buy windows' sounds silly to me when I don't know anyone who doesn't have multiple licenses at home (dating all the way back to windows xp or even NT
) But now that a win8 license costs as much as 90 days of PS+ you don't really hear that argument anymore thankfully.For monitors , OS, keyboards, mice, power supplies, cases, ram etc I tend to think it's just intellectual dishonesty most of the time, it's hard to imagine people not having these already (some won't of course)
Why is the entry cost to pc gaming always 500+ euros worth of hardware, when it's going to be closer to 100 euros for a large amount (if not majority) of people.
Exactly , it's really not relevant to the cost or situation today. Any big changes are a long time away and much of the hoohah around 'desktops are doomed' (again keeping in mind that they still sell absolutely insane amounts) right now is just the usual mobile growth (that is going to reach saturation sooner rather than later, just like the desktop did over the course of the 80s+90s) media dick riding.
Sentenza
Member
Oh, come on, they aren't.
Not anywhere near as annoying as people who make post like yours, at very least.
derExperte
Member
TV sales are definitely declining and manufacturers are exiting the market/selling their business off. Sure, it comes after huge gains over the last years but the same can be said of PCs.
Well you're doing a great job of convincing him PC gamers are nice.
metalhead79
Neo Member
Yeah, that's pretty surprising to me. I was a hardcore PC gamer up until a year ago and I had switched to widescreen LCDs back in 2006.
As said many times, no one is talking about being exclusive to one platform.
Many PC gamers own consoles too.
However by not owning a PC, You miss a lot more than all past gen and current gen platforms combined.
----
I'm still rocking 17' PVA 1280x1024 monitor too. It has around 9 years by now. Waiting for 4K 22-23' monitors to make a transition.
I think a lot of reluctance is due to console gamers wanting to "belong" to something they think is relevant, such as the console wars and exclusive battles and all that. With PCs everything is infinitely scalable so there's not this "my preferred corporate brand is superior to your corporate brand" dynamic. NVIDIA vs AMD maybe, but not to the same extent.
So even if there is objectively no reason to opt for a console you'll still have those who stubbornly want to camp outside Walmart for their shiny boxed appliance and then complain about how there's no games for it on the internet.
So even if there is objectively no reason to opt for a console you'll still have those who stubbornly want to camp outside Walmart for their shiny boxed appliance and then complain about how there's no games for it on the internet.