It's the higher bandwidth requirement that might be the bottleneck here. AF with uncompressed textures can be very bandwidth heavy. You don't need additional space in the RAM afaik as the AF is processed by reading those textures.
Digital Foundry: Hands-on with the Forza Horizon 2 demo
- Thread starter T.O.P
- Start date
It's the higher bandwidth requirement that might be the bottleneck here. AF with uncompressed textures can be very bandwidth heavy. You don't need additional space in the RAM afaik as the AF is processed by reading those textures.
People being surprised at how smooth the game is but 30fps is smooth if its LOCKED. The reason why most 30fps console games don't look very smooth is because the framerates are always falling into the low 20's, sometimes even the low teens.
30fps is more frames than you're tv and movies you watch and you don't think they are jerky do you?.
30fps is more frames than you're tv and movies you watch and you don't think they are jerky do you?.
joeygreco1985
Member
4xMSAA is nice but I'd trade it for a higher framerate personally.
JackAubrey
Member
Doesn't work like that. Movie frames and video game frames are very different. The former features all the movement when a shutter was open, the latter a single slice of time - a static image. One can add motion blur to videogames - but it isn't the same as the way movie frames blur their content in a way that suggests motion to the viewer in a single frame.
KainXVIII
Member
Dat draw distance. The game looks so clean.
Clean like sterile clean? Its from some stupid Driveclub rant, not me =)
Adry9
Member
That's like saying Respawn should do the next Bioshock.
PrincipateOctavi
Banned
No.
The reason THIS game feels smoother than OTHER games set and locked at 30FPS (with no drops), is because THIS game has way better implementations of motion blur. Even the DF article states that the motion blur used in this game makes the frame rate feel faster than 30FPS.
Other games can still be locked at 30FPS and not drop, but won't feel as smooth as this if they have crappy motion blur. I'm hoping that the next Gears of War will use the Playgrounds Games' method of motion blur.
So what you're saying is...they're already sharing technology?
So why didn't you just say that instead of presenting your view as a disagreement with mine.
PrincipateOctavi
Banned
When that guy said DC looked sterile, he was referring to the other meaning of sterile, the one about the inability to produce fruit/offspring.
When you say "sterile" and assume its about cleanliness, then you are using it wrong and are thinking about "sterilized/sterilization".
JackAubrey
Member
Because you said they "should" share their technology.
When in fact they had made Horizon 2 together.
Yeah i understand that but i thought that was the reason why many 30fps games have motion blur?, to add the natural blurring to smooth everything out.
Yes i understand all that, its the reason why i think Motorstorm Apocalypse gives the illusion of a much faster framerate. You still need a locked framerate to secure that illusion though, motion blur wouldn't help much with a game dropping in the low 20's or high teens.
Gears 3 had very good motion blur and it definitely helped with making the game look really smooth for a 30fps title. That being said the highest quality motion blur last gen from what I've seen was at Forza Horizon and Crysis 2 (360 version).
JackAubrey
Member
Yes. If done well it certainly works for a game like Horizon 2. And I'm happy with the compromise of 30fps for Horizon 2.
Wouldn't be the right choice for a more sim-based game like GT or Forza Motorsport though.
J
JoJo UK
Unconfirmed Member
There is a special place in hell for people like you.
Yes I'm pretty sure you can still do it, I think it's my son's party trick 
The Shogun
Banned
Game is gorgeous. Incredibly impressed that Playground not only hit 1080p but also have 4x MSAA on Xbox One. Just goes to show you as devs get more and more comfortable with the hardware there will be plenty of great looking titles on the console.
Can't wait to get my hands on the full version of this. Horizon 1 was my favorite Forza title.
Can't wait to get my hands on the full version of this. Horizon 1 was my favorite Forza title.
If you get a slow panning camera scene, it can certainly look quite jerky. But either way, TV/movie video will be using motion blurring to reconcile the lost frames(saves on file sizes and processing demands and creates the typical 'cinematic' look we're used to), while games cant really get away with it to the same extent as everything needs to be processed in real-time.
You also aren't being asked to do any precision inputs while watching a movie.
Basically, you need to be careful likening framerates of movies with framerates of video games.
It'll be interesting to see a latency test, because I just played NFS: Rivals and FH2 back to back and the former feels like you're steering through sludge.
On that note, I remember playing Rivals last week and I was fairly impressed and thinking something along the lines of "I hope Forza looks at least as good as this". Now... wow. Instantly dated.
On that note, I remember playing Rivals last week and I was fairly impressed and thinking something along the lines of "I hope Forza looks at least as good as this". Now... wow. Instantly dated.
Great to see.
I still don't get how they make 30fps feel so incredibly good. I play a lot of games "locked" at 30fps, and they don't feel this nice.
12 days!
I honestly can't play the 30fps NFS games anymore. It feels so off I can't make it through more than a race or two.
I still don't get how they make 30fps feel so incredibly good. I play a lot of games "locked" at 30fps, and they don't feel this nice.
12 days!
I honestly can't play the 30fps NFS games anymore. It feels so off I can't make it through more than a race or two.
J
JoJo UK
Unconfirmed Member
lol I was thinking the same thing, tbh I found rivals to be quite, I dunno, boring? It just seamed to be like a tutorial over and over again or something.
Shitting ma pants over FH2 though, pre-purchase alredy done.
arhra
Member
This is completely, absolutely, and incontrovertibly wrong. AF works by increasing the number of samples taken per-texture, which requires both additional bandwidth, and more out of the texture sampling units [edit: actually, I'm not sure whether GCN still has dedicated texture sampling hardware; if not it requires additional shader resources instead].
Amount of memory makes zero difference, as all you're doing is taking more samples from the existing textures.
And taking the performance hit of a particular thing on a PC game and extrapolating that out to a console is stupid. PC games always have an impedance mismatch to the hardware they're running on, because they can't know exactly what that hardware is, so the bottlenecks and limiting factors are very different compared to a console game that's optimised exclusively for a single, fixed platform.
They do. And they're using Turn10's Forza 5 engine for FH2. The AA is just the benefit they get from dropping down to 30fps. I bet Forza 6's engine will be stellar.
It does appear from interviews that Turn10 had a more active roll in this games development than un the first FH.
Lockjaw333
Member
I don't know, I never thought the choice was as clear cut as people try to make it. This game looks PHENOMENAL, and the 4x MSAA (real AA for my PC bros) has a lot to do with it. It looks so incredibly clean at 1920x1080 with 4x MSAA, and if the 30fps is a rock-solid 30fps as it is here, I think I will take that tradeoff.
Forza 5's 60fps is awesome as well. Its really an artistic choice. The lack of AA in Forza 5 only bothers me sometimes, but the 60fps feels like its essential for a simlation racer like that. For FH2, which is more "arcadey", I think they made the right decision, it looks outstanding.
Banjo-Kazooie
Member
And to think this is only Playground's second game...
I mean, I know Turn 10 and MS assist them, but damn...
I mean, I know Turn 10 and MS assist them, but damn...
Microsoft needs to buy them, before EA, Ubisoft or Activison does. That or face another loss of 3rd party talent like Bioware and Bizarre Creations.
just give us horizon 3 that has a massive city within the world. best of both games
Banjo-Kazooie
Member
Don't forget the more recent situation they found themselves in, where Amazon bought Double Helix while DH was working on Killer Instinct.
Iron Galaxy looks to be filling the role nicely so far, but still.
For the min framerate to be >= 30 fps, which it is the average will be much closer to 40 - 45 at least. Increasing AF barely affects the average frame rate yet the improvement in IQ is instantly noticeable until you get to 8xAF. 8xAF -> 16xAF is less noticeable but the performance hit is barely perceptible at worst.
arhra said:
The GPU is GCN, AF will work on it like it does on any GCN based GPU regardless of if that GPU is in a PC or a Console. On a PC the game does not even need to support AF for you to turn it on as it can be done via the driver panel, now since you do not have access to this on a console the devs need to do it but that functionality does still exist.
The bottlenecks will broadly be the same, sure a console dev can optimise around those bottlenecks but AF has such a high IQ impact for such a small performance impact that should be one of the first things the devs turn up and then optimise around it if need be.
These consoles are basically PC's with leaner OS's and leaner APIs so for once it is really easy to say well if the PC can do it then so should the console, it should be easier on a console because there is less overhead from the OS, driver and API.
EDIT: Oh and yes, GCN has 4 texture units per CU which gives the Xbox One 48 texture units.
JackAubrey
Member
Playground is clearly a very talented team. But the problem just buying the company is that it would need to build its own engine - it's not going to be able to take the Forza engine.
Which means you're not going to get a quick turnaround on such an investment.
ninjablade
Banned
The game is really beautiful. i imagine a next gen GTA6 will look similar to these graphics while your driving.
Well, in case EA buys them they're gonna get Frostbite 3, and if Activision gets them they're gonna get Quake 3 engine.
TheIdleMiner
Neo Member
Great news for this series.
RandyBobandy
Banned
I'm sorry guys, I was young and naive!
Still, the demo looks great
Still, the demo looks great
PrincipateOctavi
Banned
Wait so then how come AF doesn't affect performance on PC? And why would that be different on this new gen? Aren't they the same architecture? CPU, RAM, GPU are all the same architecture as a PC no?
But thanks for correcting me, I assumed that because it has no impact on performance, AF is RAM limited.
RespectThySole
Member
Playground continuing PGR would be amazing.
psn
Member
ESRAM might be the bottleneck here.
PrincipateOctavi
Banned
thelastword
Banned
I love this dev's focus on IQ, 1080p and 4x aa, but I must say the game's visuals aren't impressive to me at all. The cars seems to be a bit cartoony, lacking in detail, as well as some aspects of the environment, the flora in the distance for e.g. seems a bit basic and the grass effect as you plough through the tundra seems to be a bit low rez. The rain effects aren't very impressive either, "that is when the rain wets the environment" the effect on the pavement especially is not very pronounced, seems very light, especially for these type of environments. It seems to me that the environment detail also takes a step down in these scenes, especially when you have a Rain + Night-time combination, I just find the game looks less impressive there.
One thing I do like to see though is the rain effects on the windshield, especially when the wiper is active, the textures on roads and road patches are nicely done, but overall I can see some of the concessions made in making this game, but I must also commend the devs for prioritizing a solid framerate and nice IQ. Better visuals with dips below 30 would definitely have been a worse proposition.
One thing I do like to see though is the rain effects on the windshield, especially when the wiper is active, the textures on roads and road patches are nicely done, but overall I can see some of the concessions made in making this game, but I must also commend the devs for prioritizing a solid framerate and nice IQ. Better visuals with dips below 30 would definitely have been a worse proposition.
How poorly did PGR4 sell? I'm assuming that's why we never got a PGR5 from another dev studio.
And it's interesting that positive X1 Digital Foundry threads die fast.
Needs more "Amazing" or "Stunning" in the thread title.
Don't hate me.
PGR4 did very poorly. Also not sure PGR needs to live on as a seperate game now, maybe the next Horizon will be city-rich.
RespectThySole
Member
It didn't sell nearly as well as previous entries in the series. Microsoft releasing it only a week after Halo 3 played a big role in that. It was eventually bundled though so it did have a decent user base. As a series though PGR was pretty popular, it has sold 7 million as a franchise according to Wiki.
I would really like to know how they are handling the data on xbone and how they manage the data between ddr3 and esram... in my understanding the esram works like a cache but you have more influence in how it behaves and what it does for you.
Oof. Forgot about it coming out so soon after Halo 3. It was so much better than PGR3 as well. Such a shame that more people didn't play it.