Arc Christelle
Member
Weekly Sonic Thread
To make it easier on those who NEED it to be Mario. You have to discuss why it sets the quality bar without going into a tangent of "Sonic needs to be Mario."
I can't start it off because I can't think of any.
[-sigh- That thread title limit.]
-Popular Responses-
Ape Escape Series
Jak & Daxter Series
Ratchet & Clank Series
Rayman 2 [I think is a great 3D game and wish there were more entries after 3.]
Banjo Kazooie Series
Crash Bandicoot
Spyro
Psychonauts
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My response to all of these is "WHY?" So if we're to compare playing through those three games to these you would get a better experience from these sluggish double jumped stuffed adventure titles? How are they better games? Does the controls feel as smooth and satisfying? Can you push the design to it's limit? Can you push yourself in these games? Can they possibly deliver the rush or feeling you get from the other games? and how so? Why are they better?
[Note: I've noticed the tone sounds more aggressive than satirical as I'd like it to be, but, it's really in between questions to consider.]
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Great posts contributed.
You're not really making a case as to why Sonic's iterations are so much better. People need something to argue against.
The reasons I stated the Sonic Boost Trilogy as a standard is because of three reasons.
1. Identity - You recognize this as a Sonic game, and there is few to no games that are comparable. It's really unique.
2. Polish - Not Nintendo level, but much thought and depth has been placed into the controls of Sonic and all of his actions and level design.
3.Depth - The games challenge you to get better at the levels and mechanics. They demand from you. Along with this comes the eventual rewarding feeling of Mastery. Not many games give you that feeling that doesn't have a Platinum label.
I actually agree with this when it comes in terms of transitions, Sonic Team is actually pretty weak when it comes to taking people away from the main style of play.Well, since I said Crash, I'll tackle this one.
My problem with Sonic games is they keep constantly making me do things I don't want to do. Generations would be much better if it was Classic 2D platforming Sonic and modern 3D boost Sonic the whole way through, but Modern Sonic keeps going into slow, sluggish 2D and tackling level design that the controls weren't designed for. (Colours is guilty of this too, this stuff killed Unleashed completely for me)
You know, it's funny. I was going to make an argument about Crash being more consistent and you having a grand ol' time from start to end, but then I remembered Warped pulls this shit too with its racing levels. So congrats OP, you beat me.
I think the general intention of this thread was sound (and was actually something I hadn't really considered previously). I think the perception of Sonic and Mario being in a similar tier of platform games in the past causes many people to see more recent Sonic games as being a lot worse comparatively than they are, and that there's actually not many games within their realm that actually do 3D platforming a lot better (hell, I'd even argue the 2D games had far more competition than the decent 3D entries do). However OP kinda screwed up by asking for three games rather that 3 series/IPs (I know plenty of posts have gone with this anyway). This is mostly because if someone likes Crash Bandicoot better than 3D Sonic, then it's almost guaranteed that they'd like all three original Crash games better. It would like asking for 3 better 2D platformers than the Genesis games, and getting back three Donkey Kong Countries as a reply.
OP also shouldn't have listed Unleashed... because holy shit, those Werehog stages. It wouldn't matter if every other stage in that game was a "best-of" of Mario Galaxy levels the Werehog stuff would override it.
I am quite puzzled at quite a few of the responses in this thread so far though. There have been a lot of games mentioned that whilst I think are great, really don't make sense as nominations of being a better platformer than Sonic. I mean, Crackdown? How many times has platforming really had any consequence in Crackdown? You can land anywhere on basically anything and it doesn' t ever matter unless you just want an orb, and even that will wait there forever for you (nobody's said anything about Crackdown 2, lol). I'm surprised I haven't seen Half-Life mentioned yet. It'd be like claiming Portal is a better First-Person Shooter than Quake 3.
Also, I like the old Tomb* Raider games... but they're pretty poor at being platformers imo. Any control issues you'd level at even Sonic Adventure games is a million times worse in classic Tomb Raiders.
Was totally with you up until the underlined. That's nonsense, and a Sonic game that felt like Jet Set Radio would be a disaster.
The Crash games are nothing like any iteration of Sonic should be in any form. It lacks everything that a Sonic game. It has no momentum. It's has no tiered level design. It kills you with pretty much every touch from every enemy. There's no real speed reward when you master stages. etc.
The Crash games are far closer to represent a 3D model of the original Super Mario Bros, than anything related to Sonic. If you think they the best examples of a 3D Sonic, then the chances are, then you simply don't want a 3D Sonic really.
Also, in regards to succeeding as a Sonic killer. Crash's years of relevance were over by the time Sonic had a single proper 3D iteration. Unless Sony buy the Crash IP, the series can't even dream of having a Colors or Generations... or even a Lost World.
I'm not here to present an argument. Rather, I'd like to add to the discussion.
Somebody mentioned the Old Tomb Raider games. I would like to propose that Tomb Raider Anniversary (the remake of the original Tomb Raider) really did the original game justice. I wouldn't say that Tomb Raider Anniversary is better than any of the Sonic Trilogy games. Heck, they're not even comparable. Instead, I'd say it's a very different game design than the Sonic games and it does a few things very well compared to the Sonic games.
For instance, while the Sonic games did have multiple paths to run along to reach the end of the level, Tomb Raider Anniversary very rarely gives you more than 1 (true) path to reach the goal. In fact, when it shows you multiple paths, it is because the game is trying to lead you into completely different places within the level. This is nice to me because you really get to explore the whole level with intended consequences. What I mean is - while the different paths lead you to different places, they all have purpose. One room might show a mechanism that opens up a trap door that's located at the opposite end of the level. It might be 6 stories up, or maybe you hafta swim through quite a few caverns to find out what exactly it is that you triggered. Its game design really does cater to the player's sense of exploration.
One thing I notice about Sonic games is that the levels can be played over a large area. I think Sonic and friend's abilities to run fast, fly, or glide really work well to cover a lot of ground within the levels. And because Sonic can run so fast, it makes sense that there are quite a few obstacles within the levels to impede the player. There are pit falls, spikes, and of course some enemies that have certain patrol patterns that the player has to recognize in order to either avoid or subdue. The speed at which Sonic runs might even impede the player's ability to recognize danger in a timely manner because you simply can't see what's off the screen. I'd feel confident in saying that while Sonic runs, the level is moving at a great pace as well.
In contrast, Tomb Raider Anniversary is generally very slow and static. There are very few enemy encounters, and the player has ample time to recognize what dangers lie before Lara. Of course there are pit falls, spikes, and there are other kinds of boobie traps as well. While the game plays out very slowly, I feel that the level designs are just as well thought-out as the Sonic games, but they are built with very different ideas in mind. Sometimes, the level design seems so complex that the player has no choice but to stop and explore. The player is forced to slowly take note of the surroundings and think about what mechanisms might be in-play, or what alleys are closed/open/one-way, etc. As mentioned before, while there is always one true path to take, the game starts out with one or two paths, and then as the player progresses - the levels branch into many isolated sections, and many paths within the sections. It becomes a steady challenge that builds up until the levels become extremely hairy and intimidating. All of the sudden, failure means much more than restarting a level - it means losing progress on that puzzle that you have already forgotten parts of. So then you'll literally have to solve it all over again.
Another thing that Anniversary does well is challenge the player's understanding of what Lara can or cannot do. I've mentioned that the level designs progressively become more challenging and complex. The design also starts becoming hairy as the platforms or gaps become further and further away. Early in the game, you clear many of the jumps with ease and clearance. As the levels progress, the player will start to question what is clear-able and what is not. Some platforms are deliberately placed just out of reach, which leads to Lara's death. You might not know that it's unreachable even after dying and might try several attempts to make that clearing with certain adjustments until you finally concede that you're not on the right path.
This same concept also applies to other things like angle-of-approach. In the beginning, the platforms are wide and Lara has plenty of room for error. As the player progresses, the platforming becomes tighter and narrower. Not only that, but the angles start to shift away from straight 90 degree angles and straight lines. The end result is that by the near-end, the levels look and feel so organic that it just seems like the ruins (tombs) that Lara explores were naturally aged with that very placement/decay/manner/whatever. Platforming becomes a test of recognition of what is possible and what is not - and it's done in a very clever way to deceive you and cast doubt. You really are exploring tombs before you reach the last level.
I don't really feel that Sonic games were meant to challenge players in the same way that Tomb Raider Anniversary was. Even in 3D, the level designs were carried out with very different purposes in mind. One might have been well-made for a blistering faster-paced experience, while the other was meant to be cautiously explored with trepidation.
Anyways, I dunno where I'm going with this. Seriously. Shoot me.