i'd say the games are empty spectacle and require way less competence to play than 3D sonic. if that's your bag *shrug*
Name three 3D platformers thats better than the Sonic Boost Trilogy that isn't Mario.
- Thread starter Arc Christelle
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i'd say the games are empty spectacle and require way less competence to play than 3D sonic. if that's your bag *shrug*
It combines Crash style platforming in a Banjo type open setup. ND's pedigree with the Crash games help the worlds stay engaging from a traversal standpoint in a way most collectathon platformers fail to do. Some of the later worlds like the snowy mountain one feel seamless in the way their main areas and one off paths interconnect. Theres a good variety between open ended stages, and ones that are more of just a long obstacle course with objectives along the way. The controls are solid for non-Mario platformer and I love the way the long-jump feels.
Also the world has fantastic atmosphere, and the characters are charming which depending on who you ask is all it requires for a platformer to be great.
Banjo controls like slow sludge that inexplicably longjumps everywhere. If those controls qualify as tight then I'd argue most 3D platformers have tight controls and Banjo wouldnt be anything special in that regard. The games are about exploration, but not platforming. Theres very few platforming-based obstacles, and the ones that do are often very generous to the player (stationary small gaps that Banjo's super long jump can easily clear). Compare Tick Tock Clock in Mario 64 or a random Crash level to anything in Banjo when it comes to traversal focused challenges and the difference is night and day.
Sonic is a game where you need to practice to be able to play well while fast, thats what Im alluding to (often when people say the recent 3D Sonics control poorly its because they're boosting all the time on their first go and then wondering why they keep dying). Tony Hawk is a game I'd say needs practice as well.
omg correct the "Tom Raider" typo then please!
Yeah, fair enough. I didn't really mean to call out anyone else in this thread, but I think Sonic is still seen as something sacred to a lot of people.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Are you talking about the original Sands of Time in 2003 or the dial-a-platforming-combo/never die style of PoP2008?
cuz I'm a big fan of one of those and not the other
Arc Christelle
Member
lol
I've played through a decade of Bad Sonic games, the backlash is nothing!
I think it's funny because after Heroes, Shadow,and 06. I've been able to see the signs of flawed design. I kinda respect them because they were so damn bad that it taught me what to watch out for. While I do believe there is plenty of room for improvement, I think to some extent I can defend the boost games as legitimately good games, and even Unleashed. I agree when I first got introduced to Werehog, shit was sluggish and limited until I realize that I had to level it up, but I always find it Ironic because Werehogs base platforming design is very similar to Ristar and people eat that shit up.
I think it's hard to argue Sands of Time or the Dahakka sequences in Warrior Within take less competence than BOOST BOOST BOOST BOOST BOOST
The boost trilogy is many things, but difficult is not one of them. Which is fine, they're not supposed to be difficult.
not just Banjo Kazooie, Jak and Daxter, Spyro, Conker, and Sly Cooper
but also Vexx, Dr. Muto, Voodoo Vince, Rocket Robot on Wheels, Tak and the Power of Juju, Duck Dodgers, Bomberman Hero, and Glover
on the other hand Ratchet and Clank games were just about as uninteresting to me as the Sonic games
but also Vexx, Dr. Muto, Voodoo Vince, Rocket Robot on Wheels, Tak and the Power of Juju, Duck Dodgers, Bomberman Hero, and Glover
on the other hand Ratchet and Clank games were just about as uninteresting to me as the Sonic games
Arc Christelle
Member
I disagree. It is too easy to die in later stages. Especially when trying to maintain a perfect run. I think colors was easier, but Unleashed, and Generations required more. Although Generations gave out those free S's just for beating the stage.
Modern Sonic titles were usually addictive for the perfectionist.
"Fuck I messed up."
-presses start-
-Retry Stage-
-loses a life-
Or if you're playing Generations.
-falls and dies, loses a life before level restarts-
-restarts the game mid fall-
-lose two lives due to impatience-
lol
Arc, that gif, pls.
PoP 2008 is my shit, not gonna lie, I love that game.
The hardest of the boost trilogy is Unleashed, mainly because they hid behind trial and error, and because the Werehog levels were shit and the game had control issues. Those hotdog missions were fucking bullshit.
PoP 2008 is my shit, not gonna lie, I love that game.
The hardest of the boost trilogy is Unleashed, mainly because they hid behind trial and error, and because the Werehog levels were shit and the game had control issues. Those hotdog missions were fucking bullshit.
BlazeHedgehog
Member
I classify myself as a Sonic fan and I'm definitely not super defensive of every Sonic game. Here's my reviews for Sonic Boom: Shattered Crystal, Sonic Adventure 2, and Sonic Adventure, if you feel like reading.
Maybe you shouldn't stereotype people just because you read a couple of cringe threads one time.
Arc Christelle
Member
No lie, it had a lot of unnecessary padding. The Werehog itself is the biggest example of this. But a lot of the hub world missions and whatnot were really unnecessary. Kinda wish they learned from SA2's Mission Select.
edit: lol I know its from 06 but still
Gotdatmoney
Member
I disagree. I don't go into every sonic game in a 2D plane hoping that it controls the same as the original trilogy. As long as the level design fits the physics (which I thought it did) and it's fun, I'm fine with it. I enjoy the sonic advance (to an extent) and the sonic rush dimps games a lot though so I wouldn't mind an HD version of those but I quite enjoyed the 2D levels in Generations. The worst ones were related to just shitty picks as levels. Crisis City and Planet Wisp imo. The others were good, I really liked sky santuary, rooftop run, city escape and chemical plant in particular.
The levels were not dense or filled with tons of tiers like more classic sonic but I don't really think when I was playing the classic levels of Generations the intention was to recreate sonic 2/3 in HD. I was more meant as a celebration of sonic but realized in high quality blending elements from the 3D games with a more muted and toned down 2D moveset and physics system. I enjoyed it.
PoP2008 is freshest in my memory so we'll go with that lol
i think they're pretty difficult when you get to some of the challenge stages or are playing for lower times.
I'd actually argue that all day (although I'll admit to having purged much of Warrior Within from my memory). Sands of Time was one of my favourite games back then, but it was almost Journey levels of complacency when I was playing it. I could probably count legitimately taxing areas of that game on one hand if I could actually recall any. Pretty much any death I encountered in that game was a result of having a bit of difficulty with the camera and then thinking to myself "fuck it, I'll just try jumping this direction... I'll rewind if it doesn't work out".
The Dahakka stuff is definitely more valid, but I probably only played the first half or so of the game before dropping it, so I'm not sure if it became significantly more challenging. Constant boosting in 3D Sonic's is basically suicidal however (and is actually one of the main complaints levied at it). The existence of areas designed to be safely boosted through are easily countered by the amount of ledge walking, multiple vertical climbs etc in other games, where dying is damn near impossible to not cause deliberately.
Arc Christelle
Member
Unleashed, Colors, Generations. Pretty much the Post Rush 3D Boost games.
I've already answered it everybody.
Sonic Unleashed, Sonic Colors and Sonic Generations (it did kinda state in the OP tbh).
Basically 3D Sonic's where boosting is one of Sonic's core abilities.
IronicSonic
Member
So, no better 3D PLATFORMS GAMES than Boost trilogy post 2008?
Unleashed is a good game. Some werehog levels are OK (Empire city, Holoska) and has the best single level within all the trilogy: EGGMANLAND. Great level, hard, well designed and switching hedgehog was fun. I expected Sonic Team will bring that idea to Sonic Generations final level but...
Unleashed is a good game. Some werehog levels are OK (Empire city, Holoska) and has the best single level within all the trilogy: EGGMANLAND. Great level, hard, well designed and switching hedgehog was fun. I expected Sonic Team will bring that idea to Sonic Generations final level but...
Arc Christelle
Member
I thought I'd never live to see the day someone say this.
evilromero
Member
Except Smash, Bayonetta and TLoU are all exceptionally well reviewed games that have a very high quality of development pedigree. No, people never said Platinum were the pinnacle of story telling. Rather, they've been guilty of making landmark action games that have consistently delivered on fan expectations. When was the last time a Sonic game received such unanimous praise?
Arc Christelle
Member
Colors and Generations actually. I think there were times when Colors was actually nominated for awards if I recall.
rayman 2/3 (the 3D ones)
Banjo Kazooie
Mirror's Edge.
that wasn't so hard.
unleashed was shit, the day levels are not that good and the night levels are even worse.
Seriously the day levels are only good because you remember of the good times playing Sonic adventure games and it's kinda like them.
Colors is legit the best Sonic game I played in years but it's not anywhere near the scope it should be considering they were making this a side project to Generation or something (the Secret Rings to sonic 06 if you will).
And hampered by BS stuffs all the way through.
3D Sonic is still and shall stay in the shadow of its 2D brethen that even in their most BS phase remain so much better than their 3D counterparts.
Colours came out the year of DKCR, it was never going to win any award on Wii to begin with.
e: and Mario fucking Galaxy 2!
Banjo Kazooie
Mirror's Edge.
that wasn't so hard.
unleashed was shit, the day levels are not that good and the night levels are even worse.
Seriously the day levels are only good because you remember of the good times playing Sonic adventure games and it's kinda like them.
Colors is legit the best Sonic game I played in years but it's not anywhere near the scope it should be considering they were making this a side project to Generation or something (the Secret Rings to sonic 06 if you will).
And hampered by BS stuffs all the way through.
3D Sonic is still and shall stay in the shadow of its 2D brethen that even in their most BS phase remain so much better than their 3D counterparts.
Colours came out the year of DKCR, it was never going to win any award on Wii to begin with.
e: and Mario fucking Galaxy 2!
DarkCronos
Member
Sonic unleashed is bad. colors and generations are overrated. I liked Lost World
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
What the hell is the "Sonic Boost Trilogy"?
Yeah, because they are good games, that excuses fans from embarrassing themselves.
Even if the more recent Sonic games reviewed well, ask yourself, would that make any of the weird fan behavior be acceptable? NO. The answer is NO, it would not be. Spin this anyway you'd like, but I am tired of seeing all Sonic fans be lumped together. From lite, to sort of, to moderate, hardcore, and maybe you like Sonic too much.
And yes, people have defended Bayonetta's story. Lol. Actually when I think about it, some Platinum fans do not take well to the games they like being heavily criticized. Some here on GAF have labeled those games as style fest over substance and so on and so on. The only game I haven't seen much of that for is Bayo 2, which is probably their best game to date. And even then, they all started crying when that dude at Polygon said he did not like something about the game.
So in short, fans will be fans. If anything, dramatic fan behavior is overlooked more often when the game is good. Doesn't make it right, and is a huge reason why I do not take gaming side seriously. Go to any review thread and you'll see it. You can continue to willfully ignore it if you wish, but it is not ok. It is not ok for a thread about shadow quality to top 100 pages and most of it is complaining. Sorry, I just don't see how this is any more acceptable than a Sonic fan who just happens to like Generations or something. Or Smash fans getting banned over some argument about a +10 year old game.
evilromero
Member
I'm not saying either of those are bad games but you're comparing them to franchises that regularly end up at 80% or higher on aggregate review sites. Both Colors and Generations ended up in the high 70s, not bad for Sonic, but as you can see it's not so good when that's the pinnacle of your series.
I have no idea considering I'm pretty sure I played 2D Sonic games with something similar but I guess they don't count (let alone Lost world)
BasilZero
Member
Japanmanx3
Member
Mirror's Edge
PoP 08
Asura's Wrath
But I do like Unleashed and Generations. When you said boost I thought you meant Sonic Rush which is the pinnacle of the 2D series besides Advanced 2. SA2 still in my favorite 3D one though I haven't replayed it since DC.
PoP 08
Asura's Wrath
Yasha's Wrath
But I do like Unleashed and Generations. When you said boost I thought you meant Sonic Rush which is the pinnacle of the 2D series besides Advanced 2. SA2 still in my favorite 3D one though I haven't replayed it since DC.
Hm...
Please read either the OP or the thread for context people.
Azure Dream
Member
Unleashed, Colors, and Generations. Classifying Colors as a "Boost" game is pushing it a bit, since it's more of an accessory than a primary function in that game, but those three follow a moderately similar blueprint, Unleashed and Generations in particular.
1 - Identity is basically the OP liking Sonic because he's Sonic. Yeah if you're not Sonic (or something from the 90's somehow you're out?) somehow
2 - Polish? on a Sonic game? The series that is known to be more exploitable than the tax code for rich businessmen? The series with Sonic fucking 06 in it?
None of the 3D Sonic games are any more polished than pretty much any decent 3D games these days!
3 - No replay value means that the game is bad now?
That's a stupid terminology since Dimps was doing Boosting games when Sonic Team was trying to make shit like Sonic 06.
On top of that what makes Colors part of it that Lost World make it different enough so that it's not part of it.
It's like saying that there's the 3D Mario games in void kingdom with Mario Galaxy 1, Galaxy 2 and 3D World while excluding 3D Land because reasons
IronicSonic
Member
Maybe "Hedgehog Engine Trilogy" is more accurate?
Hedgehog Engine don't run on Wii IIRC so Colours is out.
Lost world probably use it though.
No. I had way more fun with the werehog than I did with the entirety of Jak 2. Fuck that game. I kind of liked Precursor Legacy though, even if it was literally a Mario 64/Banjo-Kazooie collectathon. Sonic Generations is still one of my favorite 3D platform games, and I find Jak and Daxter to be Naughty Dog's weakest series because 2 flat out sucked and 1 was pretty meh to me. IMO other than Mario the only platformer I've ever really been fond enough to put it above the recent Sonic games is Conker's Bad Fur Day.
BlazeHedgehog
Member
Okay, except:
1. Sonic Rush and Sonic Generations were done by completely different companies. One was Sega contracting out to Dimps, the other was done by Sonic Team internally.
2. Sonic Unleashed/Colors/Generations borrow one feature from Sonic Rush: boost. Every other element of them is completely different.
3. Sonic Rush existed along side "mainline" Sonic games. It's not like 3D Land came out next to Super Mario Galaxy 2. After finishing SMG2, that team went on to work on SM3DL and then SM3DW. There's a logical work progression there that you don't get with Rush vs. Unleashed/etc.
Arc Christelle
Member
I'm saying that when those two games were released they were highly praised.
First off Mael don't speak for people and don't assume, there's something you want to know or address you should ask.
Identity is the game design format. They successfully built a unique game centered around the asset that Sonic is known for: Speed. This is the identity of those games. My tastes aren't relevant. Which I could swore I wrote about in the OP, but strawmanning is just as good y'know.
Yes there's polish. Since you mentioned 06, you should be able to acknowledge the polish in the design of the Boost Trilogy. I hope you're not letting your feelings get ahead of you man. I know it's cool to diss Sonic, but it's alright to give him credit sometime. I won't judge you I promise. If you need proof, play around with those games, interact with the environment, try special mechanics and see how responsive and functional they are. That is polish, even the lock-on allows players to choose their target quick and properly. Most misfortunes are in their hands.
Lack of replay value and depth makes a game weak. As a developer you want your audience to experience as much as possible out of the game and to last a period of time while avoiding the bargain bin. (Lemme guess, then what about all of the Sonic games? Don't be predictable.)
Also what does 06 has to do with anything in this thread?
1) I disagree with the choice of identity being something to hold over other games. Many of the games you would compare to would have their own identity. That being said tough, I think Colours and Generations both show a good unerstanding of the concepts of a Sonic game, and how it can work in 3D (something they had to make many missteps along the way to arrive at). You only have to look at stuff like Sonic Boom (or even others like Sonic 3D Blast) to see how not understanding what the identity of Sonic is can do to the resulting product.
2) The games OP listed are actually very polished imo, especially in consideration of how complex the character's movement systems are (and the resulting level design requirements).Sonic 2k6 has absolutely nothing to do with anything OP stated, so I'm no sure why you'd bring it up, other than to "lol Sonic" away the rest of the discussion.
3) No replay value doesn't necessarily mean a game is bad. But when you consider the foundations of a platformer, it's a genre that when executed well, very much lends itself to replayability. If a platform game lacks that, there's a very good chance that the platforming itself isn't what's holding the game up. Maybe the story is great, or the puzzle are clever, or it has vast environments to explore, with many hidden objects to find. If the game's appeal drops off once you know that story, or have already solved th puzzles, or have collected all the shiny thingamajigs, then I probably think Sonic Colors/Generations is a better platformer than it.
Does the choice of term really matter that much? It simply saves on specifying Unleashed/Colors/Generations each and every time. They don't have an easy moniker like the "Adventure" games, or the "New" Super Mario games. Suggest a name of your own if you like. If it's good, we'll call them that instead.
And Colors would be considered part of it because the boost mechanic functions in the same vein as the others, and remains a core ability for Sonic. Lost World's run/boost button (do they call it boost in that?) is completely different in execution, effect and requirements. It's also so slow I hesitate to actually consider it a boost for a character like Sonic. It's more like without it the character refuses to run.
Most of the responses baffle me. People don't seem to understand what Plateformer means
I mean Conker? Jak? Ratchet? Plateforming is a distant thought in most of those games. They're better games, but not as plateformers
I would say Rayman 2, Billy Hatcher (and that one is debatable) and maybe Gex deep cover gecko
I mean Conker? Jak? Ratchet? Plateforming is a distant thought in most of those games. They're better games, but not as plateformers
I would say Rayman 2, Billy Hatcher (and that one is debatable) and maybe Gex deep cover gecko
GreatestHits
Member
Yeah we missed out on quite a bit of the circus show from OP because people don't even know what a damn platformer is. Truth is, there aren't that many of them anymore. They got replaced with FPS's. Seriously what platformers are out there these days? Mario and Sonic are the only ones. I guess Sonic is kind of it's own genre if you think about it
linko9
Member
It's a fair point that the 3d platformer genre doesn't have a ton of great, or even good entries. Personally, the N64 Rare stuff is the only thing other than Mario that I've really enjoyed. Doesn't make the Sonic games especially good or anything though.
Also, if you expand your definition of 3d platformer, there are some great games; JSR, PoP, Ico... but a lot of people wouldn't include those in the genre, which is understandable.
Also, if you expand your definition of 3d platformer, there are some great games; JSR, PoP, Ico... but a lot of people wouldn't include those in the genre, which is understandable.
Well, if Crackdown is why not?
I remember some pretty challenging jumps in Quake 3 as well come to think of it.
GreatestHits
Member
How do you walk out of your office that and say "Yup, that's a GOOOOD design". It seems like Sonic Team are prepared to fail.
BTW I am an ex-ultimate sonic fan who jumped ship right when we got Sonic Heroes. Sonic Adventure and the genesis games are some of my favorites of all-time
Arc Christelle
Member
I'd say if it wasn't for Unleashed I would've dropped the series.
The first Jak is very much a platformer. It's definitely not a distant thought that's for sure. You could maybe make a case against the sequels but not Jak 1
I can actually understand the thought process behind it. They would have received criticisms for both of their main 3D templates for Sonic from fans. These would have been that in the Adventure games Sonic is easily controllable at slower speeds, and becomes increasingly difficult to control as he gets faster, whilst in the "Boost Trilogy" Sonic is easily controllable at high speeds, but becomes less responsive as you slow down. The most immediately obvious solution would be to allow the player to control two different "modes" of speed for Sonic, making him more controllable when slow, whilst restricting his higher speed levels unless the player confirms they're in a situation that calls for it. Purely analog speed gains are very difficult for a player to control (especially when changing directions).
Plus, it's something that Mario's incorporated in the majority of his games... and if there's one thing Sonic Team would have heard a lot of, it's that they should fashion Sonic's 3D movement more off Mario's.