Staten Island Grand Jury Does Not Indict in Eric Garner Case

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Weapxn said:
The cop killing the man may not have been racially motivated, but the grand jury letting the cop off might have been. Or not. It could have been purely because some cops get away with all sorts of nasty shit more often than they should.

Either way, I'm all for the protests that are going on. It's been great seeing them here in NYC (I haven't been able to take part because of work). Even if race is taken out of the equation, there's still the problem of ongoing police brutality that could and should be controlled.
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Oh I completely agree that things need to change - I just wanted to know what I was missing from the media hyping the shit out of racial aspect of it. I firmly don't believe anything here was racially motivated.

However, I can completely understand people being upset about the ruling
 
Christopher said:
Educate me, seriously, as someone who is a mixed race of black and white I don't have any advantage of "choosing a side".
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Ah, but you see, the same institutionalized racism that makes every black man the big scary boogie man that needs to be shot at me merest provocation has already chosen for you. The "one drop rule" makes you black.
 
my five year old nephew overheard my sister talking to my brother-in-law about what was going on with Eric Garner/Ferguson.

He asks "they won't do that to me because my skin is too light, right?"

FEELS FUCKING BAD MAN.
 
Christopher said:
Educate me, seriously, as someone who is a mixed race of black and white I don't have any advantage of "choosing a side".
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Because racism is not only overt. For example, an individual can have a subconscious fear of black individuals - due to the way they were raised, or the way they were told to police black districts more diligently, or their past experiences with black folk - and as such, whether they shouted an obvious racist term or not, "overreact" due to those subconscious issues and still cause great harm. And that would still be due to race.

That's why the issue is the way it is. There is a hugely complicated history with African Americans and police in this country, and the statistics are on their side. Six times higher incarceration rate. Much higher incarceration for drug crimes even though other races use drugs are remarkably similar rates. Much more likely to be killed by police if you're black. Much more likely to spend extended periods of time in prison if your black, even if you have the same exact record and criminal background as a white individual.

All of this means: when you watch a video of a white officer choking a black man to death despite MULTIPLE TIMES him saying "I can't breathe", there is a not unwarranted jump to thinking it's about race. Because that is what happens in Black communities. Black bodies keep getting dropped by police, and nobody ever goes to prison for it.

It may still not be about race, but we'll never be able to be 100% sure about this specific case. Which is what makes new racism so insidious, it allows complacent whites (and other races) to believe racism is some ancient relic, that it's not impacting the world the way it once was and people just want to make everything about race. But this same attitude is the very one that allows institutional racism to flourish, to get worse, to be the type of thing that causes African Americans to give up on authority ever helping them out the way they should.

The endemic of police violence/injustice against black folk is just one such cornerstone of modern institutional racism, and that's why this is one important conversation writ large over the entire issue. Because even if this -one- case wasn't about race (and we'll never know), there's no way the majority of these cases aren't. We would not see such lopsided statistics otherwise.
 
Amir0x said:
my five year old nephew overheard my sister talking to my brother-in-law about what was going on with Eric Garner/Ferguson.

He asks "they won't do that to me because my skin is too light, right?"

FEELS FUCKING BAD MAN.
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I hope you set him straight. Cops don't get convicted for killing white people either.
 
Oh and for those who don't think racists can marry, date, or have sex with black people you're wrong.

Terrence Howard's wife
That gaffer's cousin
Look at the former owner of the Clippers (He dated a mixed girl and owned a team with black athletes but still was a racist)
Look at a myriad of slave owners in the south who had black mistresses.

I compare it to misogyny. It's a superiority complex. You can hate women, think women are disgusting, stupid and even physically beat them but that doesn't mean you would never marry a woman or date a woman or have sex with a woman.
 
Volimar said:
I hope you set him straight. Cops don't get convicted for killing white people either.
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my nephew is dark skinned, after his father.

He was hoping he was light skinned enough not to be killed by police :(

Foxy Fox 39 said:
Oh and for those who don't think racists can marry, date, or have sex with black people you're wrong.
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remember that one guy who put up a lynched obama but was married to a black woman? man that's an awkward conversation :(
 
Amir0x said:
Because racism is not only overt. For example, an individual can have a subconscious fear of black individuals - due to the way they were raised, or the way they were told to police black districts more diligently, or their past experiences with black folk - and as such, whether they shouted an obvious racist term or not, "overreact" due to those subconscious issues and still cause great harm. And that would still be due to race.

That's why the issue is the way it is. There is a hugely complicated history with African Americans and police in this country, and the statistics are on their side. Six times higher incarceration rate. Much higher incarceration for drug crimes even though other races use drugs are remarkably similar rates. Much more likely to be killed by police if you're black. Much more likely to spend extended periods of time in prison if your black, even if you have the same exact record and criminal background as a white individual.

All of this means: when you watch a video of a white officer choking a black man to death despite MULTIPLE TIMES him saying "I can't breathe", there is a not unwarranted jump to thinking it's about race. Because that is what happens in Black communities. Black bodies keep getting dropped by police, and nobody ever goes to prison for it.

It may still not be about race, but we'll never be able to be 100% sure about this specific case. Which is what makes new racism so insidious, it allows complacent whites (and other races) to believe racism is some ancient relic, that it's not impacting the world the way it once was and people just want to make everything about race. But this same attitude is the very one that allows institutional racism to flourish, to get worse, to be the type of thing that causes African Americans to give up on authority ever helping them out the way they should.

The endemic of police violence/injustice against black folk is just one such cornerstone of modern institutional racism, and that's why this is one important conversation writ large over the entire issue. Because even if this -one- case wasn't about race (and we'll never know), there's no way the majority of these cases aren't. We would not see such lopsided statistics otherwise.
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Thanks for the ell thought out reply instead of some of these shit posters, I appreciate the Time and effort that you took to make your point across. Thanks gives some perspective.
 
Christopher said:
Thanks for the ell thought out reply instead of some of these shit posters, I appreciate the Time and effort that you took to make your point across. Thanks gives some perspective.
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I find this to be an incredibly important issue to really talk through with people. Everyone has wildly diverse experiences growing up and in different cultures, and it's important to sit down and listen to what people have to say from all sides.

The other day I was on the bus talking to some guy and we were talking about how fucked up Ferguson was. And then he says "you know what the real problem is? The jews running everything."

I smiled sadly and said "I'm part Jewish." And he starts stuttering about how he didn't mean all jews or something like that, and I stopped him and said "Listen, I don't want it to be like that. If you do feel it is all jews, I am more interested in finding out how you got to that point of view. What made you come to that conclusion? What experience in your life informed your view? How can I help you see the world differently?"

And we had a very fruitful conversation after that.
 
Amir0x said:
I find this to be an incredibly important issue to really talk through with people. Everyone has wildly diverse experiences growing up and in different cultures, and it's important to sit down and listen to what people have to say from all sides.

The other day I was on the bus talking to some guy and we were talking about how fucked up Ferguson was. And then he says "you know what the real problem is? The jews running everything."

I smiled sadly and said "I'm part Jewish." And he starts stuttering about how he didn't mean all jews or something like that, and I stopped him and said "Listen, I don't want it to be like that. If you do feel it is all jews, I am more interested in finding out how you got to that point of view. What made you come to that conclusion? What experience in your life informed your view? How can I help you see the world differently?"

And we had a very fruitful conversation after that.
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Where did that conversation lead?

My dad used the term "n***** woods" referring to the ghettos when we were talking about this without me even bringing up race. It opened me to get him to at least admit that even he sees this as a race issue by using an obviously racial and dehumanizing term in this discussion.

The race talk that resulted was just examples of a couple of times throughout his life where black people got advantages he thinks he didn't get, namely the black guy at work which he thought was nothing special but "got praised" more often than he deserves, and the black guy in the military that was not special but got promoted at the same time he did. The quotas big businesses use to employ the bare minimum of minorities also bothers him.

I can cite and link all the studies of teachers catching more mistakes of black students than white students in their homework dispute the work being exactly the same, or employees calling black people back at the same rate as white felons dispute the resume being exactly the same. I can cite and link all the statistics about how black people are incarcerated at higher rates for drugs despite the higher rate of white people admitting to using drugs, or studies comparing sentencing disparities between similar crimes.

And yet nothing will ever get through. In his mind, the only racism that currently exists in a significant number is racism against whites. He'll always think as long as he doesn't hate all of them and is nice to the good ones, he can't be a racist, and that most people, including those cops are like him. And he is probably right that most people being called racists are looking at race like he is.

It's hard, because they think it's ok to racially profile people inside their heads as long as the final outward judgement isn't racist, and it's ok to dehumanize black people who don't meet their standards as long as they hold them to same standards they hold white people to. I argue the preliminary racial profile inherently changes the standards as it requires more proof and less benefit of the doubt to overcome those standards and thus final resulting judgement is going to be racist at least some the time. And that's where it just loops back to him thinking people's standards are too low when it comes to judging black people.

I just don't know. Most people I talk to about things like this are pretty smart and kind people, but there's just nothing you can do to change their ignorant and hurtful opinions. I guess it's just hard to change anyone's mind about something core to their beliefs.
 
thepotatoman said:
Where did that conversation lead?

My dad used the term "n***** woods" referring to the ghettos when we were talking about this without me even bringing up race. It opened me to get him to at least admit that even he sees this as a race issue by using an obviously racial and dehumanizing term in this discussion.

The race talk that resulted was just examples of a couple of times throughout his life where black people got advantages he thinks he didn't get, namely the black guy at work which he thought was nothing special but "got praised" more often than he deserves, and the black guy in the military that was not special but got promoted at the same time he did. The quotas big businesses use to employ the bare minimum of minorities also bothers him.

I can cite and link all the studies of teachers catching more mistakes of black students than white students in their homework dispute the work being exactly the same, or employees calling black people back at the same rate as white felons dispute the resume being exactly the same. I can cite and link all the statistics about how black people are incarcerated at higher rates for drugs despite the higher rate of white people admitting to using drugs, or studies comparing sentencing disparities between similar crimes.

And yet nothing will ever get through. In his mind, the only racism that currently exists in a significant number is racism against whites. He'll always think as long as he doesn't hate all of them and is nice to the good ones, he can't be a racist, and that most people, including those cops are like him. And he is probably right that most people being called racists are looking at race like he is.

It's hard, because they think it's ok to racially profile people inside their heads as long as the final outward judgement isn't racist, and it's ok to dehumanize black people who don't meet their standards as long as they hold them to same standards they hold white people to. I argue the preliminary racial profile inherently changes the standards as it requires more proof and less benefit of the doubt to overcome those standards and thus final resulting judgement is going to be racist at least some the time. And that's where it just loops back to him thinking people's standards are too low when it comes to judging black people.

I just don't know. Most people I talk to about things like this are pretty smart and kind people, but there's just nothing you can do to change their ignorant and hurtful opinions. I guess it's just hard to change anyone's mind about something core to their beliefs.
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I mean it's impossible to know where my conversation led after we parted ways. We talked for a while, the bus ride was fairly long. We discussed his experience with injustice in America as a black man, my unique experience in the cultural divide being from a part Jewish/Italian and Puerto Rican family. He apparently got a lot of his views from some book he was reading, I forgot to get the name of it. But I went through the long history of jewish persecution, why there is a perception of Jewish control amongst certain professions, why we should be careful never to view things as black and white even if we do feel there might be some inappropriate cultural preference in places.

I gave him some recommending reading material, and my number if he wanted to talk about anything. Dunno if he ever will call, but it's out there.

Obviously in my life much of my experience has been like yours. Some people believe so deeply in an "emotional truth" that no amount of evidence, no matter how strong, can convince them to move from that position. There's this fantastic article by HULK, about Gamergate, but which applies perfectly to situations like this as well. Here's a link if you have the time. But I'll quote one relevant bit here:

HULK said:
But beyond that, in any conversation you are also dealing with an emotional truth. It's a thing someone believes is true off the internal feeling they have, or what they want to be true, or what they think must be true for the sake of compassion. The problem with this particular truth is it is both necessary to being a functional person (as it is the thing that allows us to have empathy and kindness in our interactions) and yet also something that is hideously misused. For every ounce of compassion it can well up in us, it also can be used to unfairly denounce actual facts and pervert the truth.

For instance, 9/11 trutherism is a completely inaccurate bit of nonsense, unfounded in every discipline it touches, but it is still propagated by the simple act of someone distrusting government so severely that they place themselves above the fray of being manipulated. That's how powerful emotional truths are. They can take everything we understand about reality and flip it on its head. And often, it's so powerful that many are not aware when they've come to believe something because of their emotional truth. And wouldn't you know it, but the more tenuous the factual claim becomes, the more an emotional truth it becomes.

But the real danger of understanding the emotional truth is it is something that they can use right back against you. With the 9/11 truthers, all your science just becomes truth that you are part of the "sheeple," someone who just wants to pull the wool over their eyes because "the truth" scares them. Which just means that anyone can challenge virtually anything you believe on the same grounds and anything can now fall into disrepute. In this lens, the mainstream media suddenly becomes inept. With gamergate, we're all a bunch of idiots who can have our eyes blinded in our commitment to stopping sexism and loving feminists that we ignore corrupt journalism, etc. Etc... When you don't understand how easy it is to flip the script without holding yourself to factual standards, conversations can get really, really dangerous.
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Consider that all the evidence you posted is strong, supported by many studies, poured over by academics and experts of many fields. And yet, the more you show people who believe this about racism toward whites (vs. blacks), the more they refuse to believe. It's all part of some "other" argument that has no place in their emotional truth.

Which can make it especially hard to deal with.

That said, in my time... there have been more than one person I have changed their minds over about racism, and we've become good friends later on. It's rare but it happens. Which is why I always try to approach the subject carefully in real life, because there's always the odd chance someone might listen.
 
Christopher said:
And your reasoning outside of the two being a different race are...?
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The fact that these things disproportionately happen to black people and that this type of policing is only used when black people are involved. I've said this numerous times in this thread so if you don't see where the racial aspect is coming from, then you just aren't paying attention.
 
Foxy Fox 39 said:
Oh and for those who don't think racists can marry, date, or have sex with black people you're wrong.

Terrence Howard's wife
That gaffer's cousin
Look at the former owner of the Clippers (He dated a mixed girl and owned a team with black athletes but still was a racist)
Look at a myriad of slave owners in the south who had black mistresses.

I compare it to misogyny. It's a superiority complex. You can hate women, think women are disgusting, stupid and even physically beat them but that doesn't mean you would never marry a woman or date a woman or have sex with a woman.
Click to expand...
I only need one example when people say that being sexually attracted to other races precludes them being racist: slave owners.
 
jmood88 said:
The fact that these things disproportionately happen to black people and that this type of policing is only used when black people are involved. I've said this numerous times in this thread so if you don't see where the racial aspect is coming from, then you just aren't paying attention.
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Yeah. When people say that police brutality "is a class issue, not a race issue", they're just trying to avoid having a very uncomfortable conversation.
 
ny_g_jamesbreathe_400x600.jpg
 
CNN seriously needs to have a panel discussion with medical professionals and the NYPD Union President Pat Lynch. Lynch says there was no asphyxiation. I'm getting tired of hearing him speak. All of a sudden law enforcement can dictate how a person died.
 
Livestream Update
Berkeley:
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/berkeley-justice
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/truthcasterstv
http://abc7news.com/live/- Helicopter view

Large amount of protesters tonight! The police definitely ingrained negative perceptions on students after what happened the last 3 days.

Jayron@Jayron26
"Need to setup a protestor "medivac" to quickly get injured protestors to street medics and out of combat zone. #oakland #berkeleyprotests"

oh man these cops.

Leslie@tapmouse
"@justinberton: Holy Christ, cops shooting non lethals into crowd from overpass like snipers! #berkeleyprotests "
B4eIqizCQAARCKl.jpg
 
I'm in berkeley right now, about to go get a first hand account of how things are shaping up on the street.

All the local businesses I shop at in downtown berkeley were boarded up the past few days. Feels really fucking weird. I hate to see the kinds of bullshit protests can attract, call them anarchists call them opportunists call them whatever. Attacking local businesses is NOT acceptable.
 
Zulithe said:
I'm in berkeley right now, about to go get a first hand account of how things are shaping up on the street.

All the local businesses I shop at in downtown berkeley were boarded up the past few days. Feels really fucking weird. I hate to see the kinds of bullshit protests can attract, call them anarchists call them opportunists call them whatever. Attacking local businesses is NOT acceptable.
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Are you joining the protest group? Also, stay safe.
 
Zulithe said:
I'm in berkeley right now, about to go get a first hand account of how things are shaping up on the street.

All the local businesses I shop at in downtown berkeley were boarded up the past few days. Feels really fucking weird. I hate to see the kinds of bullshit protests can attract, call them anarchists call them opportunists call them whatever. Attacking local businesses is NOT acceptable.
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Yeah, I always hate when they happens. It's usually people from outside of town who don't have connections to the area, too. A lot of the Ferguson troublemakers were from out of state.
 
Update:
Protesters got kettled and Trustcasterstv got arrested while livestreaming
@ 26:00 http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/56301369
"They're beating me up! Help me! Help me!..."


Apparently he was being followed the whole time, he was mentioned on the scanner.

lee@welcometogulag
"CHP believes black dodge ram following protest group is armed and former military #oakland #berkeley #berkeleyprotests #walksafe"
 
I live in Oakland, and some of those disorganized morons just broke the glass doors down and robbed my neighborhood Safeway.

Tonight I actually witnessed some of these fools with bandanas across their faces fucking destroy the door of a seven eleven while there were employees locked inside, and no cops around.

Police brutality has got to stop, but it's honestly being invited by some the actions of these people who are just using the protests to riot and straight up commit robbery. It's bullshit.

I don't recall seeing any black faces tonight. It was mostly young poor whites and latinos out.
 
The random destruction of property is infuriating. They may as well be agent provocateurs working for the cops to sway public opinion. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if that were the case here, as we know for a fact it happened during Occupy.
 
Vermillion said:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...rner-is-the-turning-point-ferguson-never-was/

Intriguing.
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Things like these make me wonder how those polls would end up in a vacuum. As in, if the ferguson tragedy never happened, would this have gained as much traction?

The cynic in me would say it would have fallen by the wayside if people weren't out there protesting and making a case for this injustice. Just another case of the shit that happens everyday. Which is why It bothers me that so many think these protests are fruitless.
 
Mexican Sting said:
I live in Oakland, and some of those disorganized morons just broke the glass doors down and robbed my neighborhood Safeway.

Tonight I actually witnessed some of these fools with bandanas across their faces fucking destroy the door of a seven eleven while there were employees locked inside, and no cops around.

Police brutality has got to stop, but it's honestly being invited by some the actions of these people who are just using the protests to riot and straight up commit robbery. It's bullshit.

I don't recall seeing any black faces tonight. It was mostly young poor whites and latinos out.
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So, because some people are breaking into stores, that excuses police beating and killing people who had nothing to do with that? Do you realize how stupid that sounds?
 
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