The Formula 1 2014 Season |OT2| Louder Than Formula E

JadedWriter said:
I just kind of realized this, but is McLaren the only team with a problem with tattoos? I remember Lewis having to cover his up during the tail end of the 2012 season. Not to mention the constant shaving, which didn't change until Whitmarsh took over and Jenson with his beard, there's also Alonso's infamous debut hair shearing.
Click to expand...

Ron Dennis says one of the first things he looks at when introduced to someone is their hands to see if their nails have a manicure,.....then he makes a personal judgement about them if their nails look rough hewn. Wouldnt surprise me if Mclaren had that policy, Dennis being the old school authoritarian he is.
 
theignoramus said:
Ron Dennis says one of the first things he looks at when introduced to someone is their hands to see if their nails have a manicure,.....then he makes a personal judgement about them if their nails look rough hewn. Wouldnt surprise me if Mclaren had that policy, Dennis being the old school authoritarian he is.
Click to expand...
Dear god. No wonder the MTC always looks clean as fuck whenever I see a video of it. Is it true they have doormats that automatically wipe the bottom of your shoes? Finally watched the highlights and that Formula E race must have been crazy to watch live, god damn.
 
Aiii said:
"Look how great electric driving is"

-car runs out of power in half an hour.

Excuse me that I'm not running to the car dealership to get me an electric car.
Click to expand...

This is somewhat disingenous. Because a gas race car can't go 500 miles on a tank of gas like a road car either.
 
AndyD said:
This is somewhat disingenous. Because a gas race car can't go 500 miles on a tank of gas like a road car either.
Click to expand...

To be fair, there's been times in F1 where cars did full races without pitting in the past, so they had to make rules that ensure cars actually had to pit. And you know, current F1 drivers twice the length of FE without refueling by rule.

Besides, you still don't have to change cars if you need to refuel in a road car. :D

I'm just saying it seems to me like bad promotion for Electronic driving, nothing more. I like FE just fine, from the highlights I've seen from it.
 
DrM said:
ouch :D
Click to expand...
Sad truth though. They haven't hadone a proper car since 2010 and Alonso making several mistakes that year cost him his championship along with covering Webber in pit strategy. Their other cars were either too conservative (2011) or fucking boats. They only beat McLaren in the 2012 wcc because they threw it away like rank amateurs.
 
That's completely unfair for the 3 other manufacturers who were imposed a freeze and yet Honda can waltz in and have virtually unlimited development from Day 1.
 
Well it was to be expected. Honda probably phoned up Bernie and told him to get it sorted because they spend money in the sport and he wouldn't want to lose that.
 
Gareth Bale said:
How does that work?

edit: I'm not saying you're wrong, but could you explain it?
Click to expand...

What I mean is that in comparison to Mercedes, Renault and Ferrari who had to freeze development for the entire season, Honda will be able to refine its engine from the get go, and use whatever token they have. Just totally unfair, in my opinion. And sets another dangerous precedent where FIA is constantly rewriting the rule book as they see fit...

They should have followed the same path the other 3 did, which is to have its first engine homologated by February 28th and then frozen for 1 season. Mosley would have told them to fuck off for sure, especially since they are affiliated with Ron Dennis. Jean Todt, on the other hand, is a little bitch
 
It's an interesting situation for sure. Honda basically got to see how the others manufactured their engines, then they got a shitload of data from McLaren on the Merc engine, and now that they've developed it with all that in mind, they're going to be able to tweak it on the fly.

I'm fully expecting a (very brittle) rocketship.
 
Oh right, you mean the same Max Mosely that signed the 100-year deal? Haha. Get out.

I legitimately cannot understand the opinion of refusing Honda those in-season development tokens. Formula 1 is in the midst of a huge crisis and the one thing it needs more than anything else is outside investment from manufacturers before the WEC sweeps them all up, and you want to hamstring Honda for being the only manufacturer in a very long time to take the risk with F1 again just because they joined a year later? Just seems silly.

When you consider how ridiculous the loophole that Ferrari, Renault, and Mercedes are exploiting in 2015 it's not at all ludicrous for Honda to be given the same treatment. Especially when Honda, along with the other three, will be limited to only four engines across the season.
 
Psychotext said:
It's an interesting situation for sure. Honda basically got to see how the others manufactured their engines, then they got a shitload of data from McLaren on the Merc engine, and now that they've developed it with all that in mind, they're going to be able to tweak it on the fly.

I'm fully expecting a (very brittle) rocketship.
Click to expand...

Unclear as to how much they got from the Mercedes package. Every race there was a Mercedes engineer around their engine in the McLaren garage. Also, the flow of information between Mercedes and McLaren appeared to be minimal.
 
ksharp said:
What I mean is that in comparison to Mercedes, Renault and Ferrari who had to freeze development for the entire season, Honda will be able to refine its engine from the get go, and use whatever token they have. Just totally unfair, in my opinion. And sets another dangerous precedent where FIA is constantly rewriting the rule book as they see fit...

They should have followed the same path the other 3 did, which is to have its first engine homologated by February 28th and then frozen for 1 season. Mosley would have told them to fuck off for sure, especially since they are affiliated with Ron Dennis. Jean Todt, on the other hand, is a little bitch
Click to expand...

If the other teams use someting like 20 tokens (average) before Australia, Honda will have 12 tokens to use just like everyone else during the season. How is that unfair?

I think it's better than any other "solution" that was speculated about. It actually sounds reasonable.
 
ksharp said:
Unclear as to how much they got from the Mercedes package. Every race there was a Mercedes engineer around their engine in the McLaren garage. Also, the flow of information between Mercedes and McLaren appeared to be minimal.
Click to expand...

They'd have certainly got all the telemetry data. If nothing else, that would be a big thing. Plus I'd bet there were plenty of opportunities in transit to give the engine a look over.
 
Ark said:
Oh right, you mean the same Max Mosely that signed the 100-year deal? Haha. Get out.

I legitimately cannot understand the opinion of refusing Honda those in-season development tokens. Formula 1 is in the midst of a huge crisis and the one thing it needs more than anything else is outside investment from manufacturers before the WEC sweeps them all up, and you want to hamstring Honda for being the only manufacturer in a very long time to take the risk with F1 again just because they joined a year later? Just seems silly.

When you consider how ridiculous the loophole that Ferrari, Renault, and Mercedes are exploiting in 2015 it's not at all ludicrous for Honda to be given the same treatment. Especially when Honda, along with the other three, will be limited to only four engines across the season.
Click to expand...

No, it doesn't. Honda is not back to help F1 or to be its saviour. It's there because it sees a business opportunity thanks to the use of V6 (which fits their business model). When they signed to get back to F1, they knew the rules and they agreed to them. To me, the fact that they argued so much to get the tokens shows that they are likely to be behind the curve or they at least have worries about the competitivity of their PU.

I am just tired of FIA constantly re-writing the rules or not plugging these loopholes. BTW, I was on Mercedes' side re: the loophole - I was against in-season development; that should have never happened but it did - and it shouldn't make any difference to Honda who is in its 1st year in the V6 program and therefore adhere to same (strict) rules Ferrari, Mercedes and Renault adhered to in 2014.

Psychotext said:
They'd have certainly got all the telemetry data. If nothing else, that would be a big thing. Plus I'd bet there were plenty of opportunities in transit to give the engine a look over.
Click to expand...

Sure, but it's what's inside that counts, though. Telemetry is important as they know what to aim for, but it's not like they can reverse-engineer the whole thing.

Elvin Atombender said:
If the other teams use someting like 20 tokens (average) before Australia, Honda will have 12 tokens to use just like everyone else during the season. How is that unfair?

I think it's better than any other "solution" that was speculated about. It actually sounds reasonable.
Click to expand...

Because the other 3 manufacturers did not use a single token in their first year and agreed to leave it as is despite being humiliated by Mercedes throughout the 19 GPs of 2014.
 
ksharp said:
Because the other 3 manufacturers did not use a single token in their first year and agreed to leave it as is despite being humiliated by Mercedes throughout the 19 GPs of 2014.
Click to expand...

The other manufacturers have a lot more data to show what they actually have to change from the last season so having the same amount of tokens during this season sounds like a good option to me.

It's not like they won't do any changes at all before Australia.
 
ksharp said:
Because the other 3 manufacturers did not use a single token in their first year and agreed to leave it as is despite being humiliated by Mercedes throughout the 19 GPs of 2014.
Click to expand...

They couldn't. PUs components were frozen except for reliability, cost or safety reasons and required every other manufacturer to agree.
 
Some teams found a loophole to develop their power units during the season.

If they don't use that loophole and use all their tokens before the season, Honda can't develop their engine during the season either. If they use half their tokens, Honda will have that many tokens left as well - sounds like a good solution to me.

The loophole shouldn't have been there but the solution they found actually sounds fair compared to everything else.
 
ksharp said:
No, it doesn't. Honda is not back to help F1 or to be its saviour. It's there because it sees a business opportunity thanks to the use of V6 (which fits their business model). When they signed to get back to F1, they knew the rules and they agreed to them.
Click to expand...

100% true, except the rules suddenly changed when Ferrari pointed out the loophole. So no, they didn't know what they were signing up to.
 
ksharp said:
No, it doesn't. Honda is not back to help F1 or to be its saviour. It's there because it sees a business opportunity thanks to the use of V6 (which fits their business model). When they signed to get back to F1, they knew the rules and they agreed to them. To me, the fact that they argued so much to get the tokens shows that they are likely to be behind the curve or they at least have worries about the competitivity of their PU.

I am just tired of FIA constantly re-writing the rules or not plugging these loopholes. BTW, I was on Mercedes' side re: the loophole - I was against in-season development; that should have never happened but it did - and it shouldn't make any difference to Honda who is in its 1st year in the V6 program and therefore adhere to same (strict) rules Ferrari, Mercedes and Renault adhered to in 2014.
Click to expand...

This is the only post I'm going to make on the matter because I know all too well that your opinions can't be swayed. The pre-existing big three are exploiting a lazy-loophole the FIA neglected to tie up, it would have given them an even larger competitive advantage than they already had over Honda. Oh, and don't give me "oh but Honda can take McLaren's year of Mercedes dat-" No. Honda were always going to be at a disadvantage, even if they'd been working on their PU for five years. This doesn't make things unfair, it's makes them fair.

If the FIA hadn't given Honda the fair leniency it has, they'd be at an extra disadvantage next year when instead of being allowed 32 tokens, they'd be allowed 20-something instead. On top of already being forced to run one less engine than their competitors during the same point of life of the engine.

As much as I back the cost-cutting measures, it doesn't matter whether those 32 tokens are spent in-season or during the 2015 winter. That money would end up being spent anyway, it makes far more sense to allow a modicum of development freedom for the teams in a sport where such a thing is beyond rare; especially when the current regulations are still in their infancy.

By all means be harsh on the FIA for their usual regulatory flip-flopping, but don't give them shit for one of the few decisions that is correct in terms of both competitive fairness, and the good of the sport.

Nicktendo86 said:
100% true, except the rules suddenly changed when Ferrari pointed out the loophole. So no, they didn't know what they were signing up to.
Click to expand...

Yup. Just like when HRT, Marussia, and Caterham all signed up and started F1 operations under the assumption a budget cap would be implemented. At least in Honda's instance, the sport has made the fair concession.
 
I really don't understand how this decision is "fair".
Honda had unrestricted development of the PU, they could do unlimited miles at Motegi or Suzuka with one of their cars, they certainly learned the errors and qualities of the other manufacturers and yet they get extra tokens?
 
nature boy said:
I really don't understand how this decision is "fair".
Honda had unrestricted development of the PU, they could do unlimited miles at Motegi or Suzuka with one of their cars, they certainly learned the errors and qualities of the other manufacturers and yet they get extra tokens?
Click to expand...

They have to go through all the troubles other manufacturers went through last season. Did they manage to run three laps during the first test? They might have some extra data compared to what everyone else had last season but they don't have as much data showing what needs to be improved.

It will never be completely fair or equal but the solution FIA came up with now sounds good to me.
 
JadedWriter said:
So after all of this what happens if everybody gets trounced again by Mercedes?
Click to expand...

Is anyone expecting a different outcome? I don't expect the gap to be as significant as last year, but I'll change my avatar to Maldonado for a month if anyone has a better PU than Mercedes at Australia.
 
Ark said:
Is anyone expecting a different outcome? I don't expect the gap to be as significant as last year, but I'll change my avatar to Maldonado for a month if anyone has a better PU than Mercedes at Australia.
Click to expand...
If that's the case the teams are throwing a lot of toys out of the pram just to continue losing, but to lose at less of an embarrassing margin I guess.
 
Ark said:
Is anyone expecting a different outcome? I don't expect the gap to be as significant as last year, but I'll change my avatar to Maldonado for a month if anyone has a better PU than Mercedes at Australia.
Click to expand...

What if a team wins by having a better package than Mercedes? Or are we going to measure it with straight line speed? I'm only asking, because the thought of a Maldonado avatar in this thread would be horrifying and hilarious at the same time.
 
JadedWriter said:
So after all of this what happens if everybody gets trounced again by Mercedes?
Click to expand...

When Mercedes waltz off into the distance, I expect Horner, Bernie et all to continue talking about bringing in V8s or V6s with no ERS or whatever else.

I like the idea of the 1000hp engines being possible for a few years. Crank up the fuel allowance and then well see some engines at 15k.


The rules this year are an evolution of last year, Merc had the best package last year so it stands to reason they have the best chance this year. RBR had a good chassis but no engine, Williams just needed a bit more DF and some actual strategy, Lol Ferrari.
 
DBT85 said:
When Mercedes waltz off into the distance, I expect Horner, Bernie et all to continue talking about bringing in V8s or V6s with no ERS or whatever else.

I like the idea of the 1000hp engines being possible for a few years. Crank up the fuel allowance and then well see some engines at 15k.
Click to expand...
2016 cars will be fueled by Christian Horners tears.
 
i think that only reliability issues can harm Mercedes in 2015 - like they struggle with ERS+brakes during hot European summer. Their whole package was so superior that they could easily use last year's car(if rules would stay the same) for first half of 2015 season and they would still be ahead. I just wonder how much stuff they were able to test on their cars for 2015 season during last few races - they were bringing new parts on almost every race till the end.

nature boy said:
So Honda get the average of tokens remaining between the 3 manufacturers?

What kind of fucked up logic is this? What a joke.
Click to expand...

It is FIA, nothing can't surprise us anymore
 
brotkasten said:
What if a team wins by having a better package than Mercedes? Or are we going to measure it with straight line speed? I'm only asking, because the thought of a Maldonado avatar in this thread would be horrifying and hilarious at the same time.
Click to expand...

I imagine it should be pretty clear who has the best PU. Straight line speed, corner exit speed, fuel economy, etc. We'll know after qualifying I reckon.

I'll change it if a Mercedes-powered car doesn't win in Australia. That's my bet.
 
For those interested, here is the list of tokens, their weight, and what's allowed to change each season:

B7jA_wDCIAA_Qla.jpg:large


Black bar means restricted, i.e, cannot be changed.
 
nature boy said:
For those interested, here is the list of tokens, their weight, and what's allowed to change each season:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B7jA_wDCIAA_Qla.jpg:large[/IMG

Black bar means restricted, i.e, cannot be changed.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for posting this! I always wondered what the breakdown was for tokens.
Click to expand...
 
Looks like that Ferrari is already making goals for the first race --> getting both cars in Q3

Alonso was in talks with Porsche for 3rd car in Le Mans, but Honda managed to put a veto on this.
 
I don't see the issue with Honda in-season development. The deal they signed up to was that no one would have in-season development, then Ferrari International Assistance decided to stay true to form and accepted an odd loophole to allow Ferrari to continue to develop their engine in-season. They can't hold Honda to the old reading of the rules and allow Ferrari, Renault and Mercedes the new reading of the rules.

Either they all benefit from the loophole or the FIA close it and watch Ferrari struggle for another season. It can't be one rule for Honda and a better for everyone else.

Not to mention holding Honda to the old interpretation would further discourage new engine manufacturers from entering.

Yes it allows Honda a larger amount of development for this season as they can use loads of tokens, homologate, then use their in-season tokens, but they are already a late entrant so they have a lot of catching up to do anyway.

None of this would even be an issue if the FIA had just told Ferrari to get lost and banned all in-season development outright.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Formula 1 2017 Season |OT2| A Dutch Horror Story - Sundays on Sky
54 55 56 57 58
3K
344K
Grieves replied
Formula 1 2016 Season |OT2| BUT GRO PER
78 79 80 81 82
4K
328K
Hammer24 replied
Game of Thrones *NO BOOK DISCUSSION* |OT2| Season 7 - [Read the OP]
331 332 333 334 335
17K
2M
Night.Ninja replied
Twin Peaks Season 3 |OT2| It's Just A Change, Not An End
111 112 113 114 115
6K
634K
Kadayi replied
Football Thread 2017/18 |OT2| Fractured but Ox
166 167 168 169 170
8K
550K
Hideous Snake replied
Top Bottom