Witcher 3 quest designer: DA Inquisition is a good game, but too many fetch quests

Durante said:
Nah. In fact there were western RPGs released in 2014 alone which don't have fetch quests.
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Hell, CDPR already showed they have the capacity to create some amazing side quest in Witcher 2. Who didn't absolutely love "In the Claws of Madness" or "Little Sisters". I just hope CDPR can actually have enough side quest of the same calibur in an open world game.
 
Shining Sunshine said:
And no games need mods. It's on the developers to make the game great, not the community. If people think a game needs mods, they think the base game is bad.
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Clearly you have no idea what you are even talking about.

There are plenty of things that mods can inject into DAI to make it a LOT better.

I have the game and while I enjoy it I can also say it could have been a lot better.
 
LurkerPrime said:
They're honestly pretty bad. I can't think of many games that would be so markedly improved (and lose as much content) as DAI would with the removal of side quests.

If you want to specify some horrible game and say the side quests are better than that, ergo it's hyperbole, that's fine with me. But I still think DAI's side quests are some of the worst out there.
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Dunno. Keeping with the theme of acclaimed game with a lot of sidequests: Xenoblade Chronicles, Skyrim, Neverwinter Nights, Baldurs Gate, Icewind Dale, FF8, FF7, FF6 etc.
 
CadetMahoney said:
/thread, there will be plenty.
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From what I've been seeing here in gaf, people have different look at fetch quests.
There are people who think that all "kill x monsters or pick x item" quests are disgusting fetch quests, but there are also others that think those aren't fetch quests if the devs design it in a way that they're meaningful or interesting to do. In fact, most side quests in New Vegas are "fetch quests", go talk to x there, kill x here, pick x from there, etc, but they're interesting and meaningful. And anyway, monster hunting in Witcher 3 will be considered "fetch quests" too.
 
Just hope the conversations are not as lengthy. It's a problem I had with other WRPGs. The people talk way too much. Need a nice medium between JRPG townspeople's 2 or 3 sentences vs WRPG townspeople telling you their life story.
 
NIN90 said:
A big problem why the fetch quests in DA:I are so bad is their packaging. It's true, most quests in any game are fetch quests. It's just that most of them try to actually motivate the player to complete them and not just hand them out via random notes lying around (an obvious attempt to save VA costs).
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This is true, though I don't think everything is a fetch quest. A lot of quests are related to manipulating the state of the world by executing specific skilled tasks.
 
tuxfool said:
Dunno. Keeping with the theme of acclaimed game with a lot of sidequests: Xenoblade Chronicles, Skyrim, Neverwinter Nights, Baldurs Gate, Icewind Dale, FF8, FF7, FF6 etc.
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And these games are worse in the sidequest department than DAI? I... do not agree - in neither quality nor quantity.

Actually, Xenoblade maybe. But it's unashamedly designed like an MMO so it didn't bother me.

family_guy said:
Just hope the conversations are not as lengthy. It's a problem I had with other WRPGs. The people talk way too much. Need a nice medium between JRPG townspeople's 2 or 3 sentences vs WRPG townspeople telling you their life story.
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That's the wonderful thing about dialog trees! It can satisfy both camps.
 
"Well, my favorite open world game is Fallout: New Vegas," Tomaszkiewicz says about the way it combines quests and story with the open world. It is insanely good to hear from someone who is in charge of the missions in Witcher 3. New Vegas is one of the few almost absammelresistenten examples of modern RPGs, defines your role in his world through deeds and fractions. The drawers do not know where you could grab the residents of Nevada, and withdraws in favor of a neutral perspective the events detected. In short, the players decide who is good and bad, as far as this distinction is relevant.
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Well, I've only played Witcher 1 and thought it was ok (the early chapters were a slog imo and the combat wasn't that good), but I'm a huge fan of Fallout: New Vegas so while I liked what I've read about the Witcher 3, this quote is my "you had my curiosity, now my attention" moment...
 
1TUDgVa.jpg
 
jem0208 said:
Did you play through the Dark Brotherhood? Or the Thief's guild? Or the Mages guild? All three are packed with fantastic quests.

Then there's quests like the painting. The quest where a ship you're on gets stolen whilst you sleep and you can either kill everyone or, if you choose the right options, convince their leader to give himself up. There is the quest with the ring in the well which is actually an attempt to kill you. The dark brotherhood quest where
you have to purge the Sanctuary
. The one when you're locked in a house and have to murder everyone whilst blaming others. A quest where you enter sometimes dreams to try and save them from an everlasting sleep. The finale of the thief's guild which involves
breaking into the imperial palace and stealing an Elder Scroll
. The one with the house which is haunted.

These are all quests I've thought of just off the top of my head. There are many more which are good.


Another fantastic thing about Oblivion is that it's absolutely littered with detail. There are mysteries and stories which are really interesting and aren't even quests. There's one dungeon filled with bandits with a back story and sudden twist half way through involving a sneaky necromancer.
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great now i feel like playing oblivion again
 
I want every quest to be like Shadowrun: Dragonfall's.

Every quest was meaty and rich and character driven and had a context and setting in the world.

I still have to dive back into New Vegas but I enjoyed the 40 hours I put into it initially.

Dragon Age: Inquisition (while I enjoyed my 100 hour playthrough) was a bloated mess of vapid fetch quests.
 
LurkerPrime said:
And these games are worse in the sidequest department than DAI? I... do not agree - in neither quality nor quantity.

Actually, Xenoblade maybe. But it's unashamedly designed like an MMO so it didn't bother me.
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You're implying all the sidequests in DA:I are terrible enough to be called the worst? Or that there are terrible sidequests in DA:I like there are in any of the other games.

By stating the worst sidequests of any game ever, you're essentially stating that the ones in DA:I are the peak of awfulness, when in fact there are terrible sidequests of equivalent quality in all the games I listed. I could just have easily stated that Baldur's Gate has some of the worst sidequests in gaming ever.

Also regardless of whether you think Xenoblade is an MMO or not it still is a single player RPG as such its sidequests are just as valid to be judged by this metric. The OP included JRPGs in his assertion.
 
NIN90 said:
A big problem why the fetch quests in DA:I are so bad is their packaging. It's true, most quests in any game are fetch quests. It's just that most of them try to actually motivate the player to complete them and not just hand them out via random notes lying around (an obvious attempt to save VA costs).
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Yeah, the abundance of letter/note quests has that as a factor. Then again, I don't really blame them considering the sheer amount of voiced dialogue in Skyhold alone. Also, some of the letter quests are really well done, like the haunted mansion in the Graves or the trail of diaries leading from the body at the bottom of the cliff (also in Graves).

There are plenty of story quests in Inquisition. There's just that much more objective-collection questing that it really dilutes the story quests.

As much as New Vegas bored me, it continued to demonstrate impressive quest design by constantly offering multiple paths to solution, usually integrated into the character you were building. That's one aspect where Dragon Age could really learn: offering non-combat solutions. This can really help keep quests feeling fresh and varied, even if they are still fetch quests.
 
Ralemont said:
Yeah, the abundance of letter/note quests has that as a factor. Then again, I don't really blame them considering the sheer amount of voiced dialogue in Skyhold alone. Also, some of the letter quests are really well done, like the haunted mansion in the Graves or the trail of diaries leading from the body at the bottom of the cliff (also in Graves).

There are plenty of story quests in Inquisition. There's just that much more objective-collection questing that it really dilutes the story quests.
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The problem is that people don't read letter/notes and call the quests meaningless.
Such irony, isn't it?
 
texhnolyze said:
The problem is that people don't read letter/notes and call the quests meaningless.
Such irony, isn't it?
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Part of the problem here, as evidenced by that inane RPG Codex image, is that some things are being called quests which aren't meant to be quests. Requisitions aren't meant to be quests. They are a way to gain additional Power and they never pretend to be otherwise. It's crafted Power, just like you can buy Power at the merchant. Similarly, camps aren't quests. They are simply a consequence of exploring the map. Ditto for landmarks, but those also give you some lore about the surrounding area (but fuck lore, because that's not interesting right?).

Inquisition does have some very very bad mindless questing, though. The shards are truly bottom of the barrel when it comes to creative quest design. There are also quests like building watchtowers in the Hinterlands that are not really compelling since they amount to "go here and press X." At the same time, the Hinterlands has interesting quests like converting the Cult of the Breach down in the south of the Hinterlands to the Inquisition's side. But stuff like that never gets brought up because it's not convenient to the narrative. Still, I agree with the general sentiment that the side quest design needs significant work for the next DA.
 
Ralemont said:
Part of the problem here, as evidenced by that inane RPG Codex image, is that some things are being called quests which aren't meant to be quests. Requisitions aren't meant to be quests. They are a way to gain additional Power and they never pretend to be otherwise. It's crafted Power, just like you can buy Power at the merchant. Similarly, camps aren't quests. They are simply a consequence of exploring the map. Ditto for landmarks, but those also give you some lore about the surrounding area (but fuck lore, because that's not interesting right?).

Inquisition does have some very very bad mindless questing, though. The shards are truly bottom of the barrel when it comes to creative quest design. There are also quests like building watchtowers in the Hinterlands that are not really compelling since they amount to "go here and press X." At the same time, the Hinterlands has interesting quests like converting the Cult of the Breach down in the south of the Hinterlands to the Inquisition's side. But stuff like that never gets brought up because it's not convenient to the narrative. Still, I agree with the general sentiment that the side quest design needs significant work for the next DA.
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Indeed, requisitions aren't supposed to be quests. I don't do them at all, in fact, after knowing that power can be easily gained later. But it doesn't mean that all of the side quests in DA:I are trashy fetch quests just like some people claimed.
 
I'm totally expecting people to label monster hunting a fetch quest, regardless of the quality or how many phases of investigation are involved.

Ralemont said:
Inquisition does have some very very bad mindless questing, though. The shards are truly bottom of the barrel when it comes to creative quest design. There are also quests like building watchtowers in the Hinterlands that are not really compelling since they amount to "go here and press X." At the same time, the Hinterlands has interesting quests like converting the Cult of the Breach down in the south of the Hinterlands to the Inquisition's side. But stuff like that never gets brought up because it's not convenient to the narrative. Still, I agree with the general sentiment that the side quest design needs significant work for the next DA.
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This. I don't see anybody arguing this point. But the hyperbole used by people is just as lazy as the quest design to which they ascribe it.
 
I hope the quests are along the lines of those in Dying Light. A lot of them still amount to fetch quests but the extra little touches like not all following the same formula (how and when you get contacted for example), the fact most are multi part (you find a guy, then help him, then get follow up on whether things worked out or not) and the way they make sure to sew them up for you giving a nice sense of completion.
 
Witcher 3 has about 10 odd writers just for quests. I recall reading in one of the hand-on info blast that people thought they were completing a main quest when it was in fact a side quest. Actually, this clever interwoven narrative and quest design is one of the main reasons I am excited for the first time for a WRPG.

It also helps there are multiple layers of plotlines - first being the Witcher who hunts monsters in general, second being the Nilfgaardian and political proceedings, and third being the search of Ciri.

I also saw some trailers of DA:I, but it has custom created characters, and the world design/lore doesn't seem interesting enough. So, Witcher 3 it is.
 
Exentryk said:
Witcher 3 has about 10 odd writers just for quests. I recall reading in one of the hand-on info blast that people thought they were completing a main quest when it was in fact a side quest. Actually, this clever interwoven narrative and quest design is one of the main reasons I am excited for the first time for a WRPG.

It also helps there are multiple layers of plotlines - first being the Witcher who hunts monsters in general, second being the Nilfgaardian and political proceedings, and third being the search of Ciri.

I also saw some trailers of DA:I, but it has custom created characters, and the world design/lore doesn't seem interesting enough. So, Witcher 3 it is.
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Dragon Age's lore is absolutely incredible in my opinion. Arguably the strongest part of the series. But alas, to each their own.
 
ShooterMcGavin said:
Dragon Age's lore is absolutely incredible in my opinion. Arguably the strongest part of the series. But alas, to each their own.
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problem about lore is that even the most diffuse can appear to be interesting. Only because fans like to think they get the hang of its interconnections (even when there are none or whatever). As for game design it is a far bigger achievement to implement interesting quests than to have a great lore; as the latter doesn't really need any kind of game design.
 
Objectively Bad Opinion said:
If he were a gaffer he would be defending second-rate game design and heaping praise on what is ultimately a half-baked game in every regard, that doesn't value the player's time nor their intelligence.



Don't mistake lore for plot.
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Eh, what? The plots throughout the Dragon Age series have been good, but it's the lore that sets it over the top. The rise and downfall of the Andrastian Chantry, the exotic and powerful Tevinter Imperium, the elven ruins and symbols, etc...It's all quality stuff.
 
tuxfool said:
You're implying all the sidequests in DA:I are terrible enough to be called the worst? Or that there are terrible sidequests in DA:I like there are in any of the other games.

By stating the worst sidequests of any game ever, you're essentially stating that the ones in DA:I are the peak of awfulness, when in fact there are terrible sidequests of equivalent quality in all the games I listed. I could just have easily stated that Baldur's Gate has some of the worst sidequests in gaming ever.

Also regardless of whether you think Xenoblade is an MMO or not it still is a single player RPG as such its sidequests are just as valid to be judged by this metric. The OP included JRPGs in his assertion.
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Where is this "some of" coming from? Taken collectively, DAI's sidequests are among the worst out there. Nothing in the games you listed is even remotely comparable, as DAI will win by the sheer magnitude of its offenses. DAI's sidequests are bargain bin game design that has absolutely no place in a AAAA+ RPG from a developer as prestigious as Bioware.

DAI, as a narrative-focused RPG, should not be excused or lauded for being lazy and disrespectful of players' time - not for sidequests or anything else. And don't hide behind the "it's optional" or "some of it's good seriously guys" sleight of hand because gaining levels, equipment, and power is not optional if you want to finish the main story. The sidequests are a core aspect of DAI, one that cannot be avoided. Sure, some sidequests have a sentence or two, or maybe a codex entry, that somehow contextualize the event, but don't mistake this bare minimum of presentation for something that should be acceptable during 2014, the Year of the RPG. And let's not even talk about what you need to do in said sidequests, because I think their contents has been covered extensively by now.

Basically, when Star Wars: The Old Republic has put more thought and care put into its sidequests, you should know you're in trouble. (Yes, although the tasks are comparable, SWTOR actually has more roleplaying significance to each sidequest. And this is from only one class story playthrough, not all of them.)
 
ShooterMcGavin said:
Eh, what? The plots throughout the Dragon Age series have been good, but it's the lore that sets it over the top. The rise and downfall of the Andrastian Chantry, the exotic and powerful Tevinter Imperium, the elven ruins and symbols, etc...It's all quality stuff.
Click to expand...
The truth about the rise and fall of ancient elven civilization pre-Tevinter strikes me as mighty fascinating too.
 
Ralemont said:
Part of the problem here, as evidenced by that inane RPG Codex image, is that some things are being called quests which aren't meant to be quests. Requisitions aren't meant to be quests. They are a way to gain additional Power and they never pretend to be otherwise. It's crafted Power, just like you can buy Power at the merchant. Similarly, camps aren't quests. They are simply a consequence of exploring the map. Ditto for landmarks, but those also give you some lore about the surrounding area (but fuck lore, because that's not interesting right?).

Inquisition does have some very very bad mindless questing, though. The shards are truly bottom of the barrel when it comes to creative quest design. There are also quests like building watchtowers in the Hinterlands that are not really compelling since they amount to "go here and press X." At the same time, the Hinterlands has interesting quests like converting the Cult of the Breach down in the south of the Hinterlands to the Inquisition's side. But stuff like that never gets brought up because it's not convenient to the narrative. Still, I agree with the general sentiment that the side quest design needs significant work for the next DA.
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Honestly, they could easily replace each of those requisition images with genuine quest images though, he probably just snapped a shot of all the ones in his log at the time. I cant recall which quest that is in the Hinterlands but I dont think anyone has said there are zero good quests in DA anyway.
 
ShooterMcGavin said:
Dragon Age's lore is absolutely incredible in my opinion. Arguably the strongest part of the series. But alas, to each their own.
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I only saw a few trailers, and perhaps the custom characters put me off entirely. That is a big deal for me to take interest in the story and the world.
Add on that the quest design, and the decision was easy to choose Witcher 3 as my first WRPG. Also, is DA:I's combat like MMOs with auto attack?

FWIW, DA:I looks great.
 
erawsd said:
Honestly, they could easily replace each of those requisition images with genuine quest images though, he probably just snapped a shot of all the ones in his log at the time.
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There are a few in there that are genuine, sure. The companion quests where you collect things or eliminate enemies for example are definitely quests and exist as a checklist of sorts. Similarly I think it was ridiculous to tie the specialization quest to a Requisition that needed gathered mats.
 
Boy did he hit the nail on the head. All the fetch quests completely turned me off from the game :/ ... maybe I'll give it another go... but with it being out for so long, what's the point?
 
Ralemont said:
I could make a similar image containing only story quests, but I'd get called out for being dishonest and ignoring all the negative examples, wouldn't I?
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Yes you would, because those quests have busywork requisites attached. So for every one you hold up as an example, you also showcase a half hour to several hours of boring "content" by induction. I'm sure your theoretical argument would very likely not feature this aspect of the game.

You only get a handful of "good" quests for free in this game. Not even the main quest line is free.
 
Ralemont said:
There are a few in there that are genuine, sure. The companion quests where you collect things or eliminate enemies for example are definitely quests and exist as a checklist of sorts. Similarly I think it was ridiculous to tie the specialization quest to a Requisition that needed gathered mats.
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There's only like 2 or 3 requisition quests in that image, it would not be difficult to replace them. All the image says is that there are too many of those types of quests, and thats absolutely true.
 
I really enjoyed DAI.
If they could do better, then definitely my GOTY.
And fallout new vegas is a good role model.
 
LurkerPrime said:
Basically, when Star Wars: The Old Republic has put more thought and care put into its sidequests, you should know you're in trouble. (Yes, although the tasks are comparable, SWTOR actually has more roleplaying significance to each sidequest. And this is from only one class story playthrough, not all of them.)
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I wouldn't go that far. SWTOR's sidequests are pretty awful. They are okay when you have to do it once, but when you have to repeat them on another character, they get to be soul crushing.

In the run up to the latest expansion pack, Bioware offered 12x the experience for class missions, so people wouldn't be forced to do the side quests to level up. It was amazing, and people have been constantly clamoring for it to return because the side quests are just so blargh.
 
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