CyanideFuse
Member
To quote a passage from the film Seven:
Do these people have serious mother issues?
Do these people have serious mother issues?
"I have...letters from dozens of women who've abandoned their dream" (Brianna Wu)
- Thread starter The Technomancer
- Start date
- Status
Maybe we should ask the dried corpses of their mothers hidden in their basements.
Generation Bateman.
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
I work in the industry, and I've caught myself feeling that way.
Oh yeah, FUCK GAMERGATERS.
GrotesqueBeauty
Banned
So everyone knows that trolling misogynist mouth breathers are worthy of scorn and derision, but can we address something maybe not as popular to acknowledge? If some internet kerfuffle is enough to make someone give up their supposed "dream", maybe they weren't especially committed to begin with. You fight for your dreams if you really believe in them.
I'm not so much referring to 12 year olds, but the wider swath of women referenced by the author. Not that it's fair that people have to face adversity through no fault of their own, but isn't that kind of, you know, life? So you persevere and become stronger for it. If the response to GamerGate is to be a victim and a shrinking violet, because of the incoherent ramblings of some transparently immature and purposely inflammatory shit stirrers, isn't that a vindication and reinforcement of the gender stereotypes? Adversity is something that can be overcome. Encountering it doesn't obviate a person of their responsibility for their own choices.
There's no better way to get one over on the creeps and naysayers than proving them wrong and becoming exactly what you want. I hope for every woman writing these letters of defeat there are two more catalyzed into action by the absurdity of overbearing manchildren.
I'm not so much referring to 12 year olds, but the wider swath of women referenced by the author. Not that it's fair that people have to face adversity through no fault of their own, but isn't that kind of, you know, life? So you persevere and become stronger for it. If the response to GamerGate is to be a victim and a shrinking violet, because of the incoherent ramblings of some transparently immature and purposely inflammatory shit stirrers, isn't that a vindication and reinforcement of the gender stereotypes? Adversity is something that can be overcome. Encountering it doesn't obviate a person of their responsibility for their own choices.
There's no better way to get one over on the creeps and naysayers than proving them wrong and becoming exactly what you want. I hope for every woman writing these letters of defeat there are two more catalyzed into action by the absurdity of overbearing manchildren.
D
Deleted member 10571
Unconfirmed Member
Me too, sadly. Wouldn't even care for "my" public twitter account, but I don't want to make the company a target for all these idiots while doing so. And yes, fuck Gamergate and all it stands for.
Be the change you want to see.
Every time you hear one of your manchildren coworkers spout misogynist bullshit, call them out on it. You don't have to make a scene to make them think (and, indeed, pushing hard causes people to entrench existing viewpoints - but later in the quiet of their own thoughts, what you said will sink in).
My tolerance for that shit has depleted from what was already a shallow well over the years, it's bad just about everywhere in life, but its a lot more overt in any place that is either male dominated, or anonymous.
Most people assume those around them think the way they do. They'll take silence as tacit acceptance for their viewpoint, even if you voice no overt agreement. Unless you speak up to the contrary.
It is hard to feel like (or be) the lone voice of reason, but the alternative is accepting the status quo. And that's fine... if you're happy with it.
Every time you hear one of your manchildren coworkers spout misogynist bullshit, call them out on it. You don't have to make a scene to make them think (and, indeed, pushing hard causes people to entrench existing viewpoints - but later in the quiet of their own thoughts, what you said will sink in).
My tolerance for that shit has depleted from what was already a shallow well over the years, it's bad just about everywhere in life, but its a lot more overt in any place that is either male dominated, or anonymous.
Most people assume those around them think the way they do. They'll take silence as tacit acceptance for their viewpoint, even if you voice no overt agreement. Unless you speak up to the contrary.
It is hard to feel like (or be) the lone voice of reason, but the alternative is accepting the status quo. And that's fine... if you're happy with it.
In theory yes, but this isn't just ramblings, but actual people getting threatened, death and rape threats and threats against their families.
All for wanting to be a woman in the gaming industry. I can see exactly why people can be put off.
Do you know what the kicker is? These people doing the harassment claim to be defending gaming and to be hardcore gamers. So additionally the thought of entering the industry knowing that these people may actually have their cake and eat it, namely rail against women in the industry while playing games contributed to by them may be a little hard to handle.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
You forgot the part about the industry these people dream(ed) of being a part of not giving a shit about the situation and in fact harboring sympathizers in some instances. so even if your hypothetical hydra women join the industry they'll still have to deal with scum and in much closer quarters. The idea is to see what's going on and work toward bettering the industry and the community, not pat women on the head who are discouraged and tell them to buck up
GrotesqueBeauty
Banned
I think for the reasons you mentioned it's important for progressive people of stature within the industry to try and help foster the right opportunities and working environments to match the skills and talents of serious minded woman developers. There's a lot of work to be done, but it's all for naught if the women who claim development is their dream quit before they even start.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Unfortunately, I don't think we'll see anyone in those positions in AAA and certainly not any pubs make any visible efforts barring serious physical harm done to one of GG's targets and that being done by someone irrefutably connected. The prioritizing of bottom lines over human costs is keeping even those who would consider themselves progressive from openly decrying GG. For many women, I think it's more the lack of industry support in the face of the harassment and abuse than it is the abuse itself that is discouraging.
KirbyStamped
Member
This really isn't a fair. Everyone has different expectations and what they want to get out of life. To say "You didn't really have that as a dream" because they were scared off by the fact that they're legitimately afraid of a constant stream of harassment and, yes, even concern over their own life places an unfair standard that, frankly, men don't have to worry about quite as much.
Not everyone wants to devote to their lives to some higher cause or meaning. A lot of people just want a nice 9-5 job that will help them pay the bills and won't become the focal point or defining trait in their lives, but also something that's interesting to them that they still like to do. I really don't think it's unreasonable for someone to have a love for video games, have an interest in making them, and then take one look at the current situation and go "Yeah, never mind, not worth it". There are some who are devoted enough to say "Well, I'll just have to deal with it since this is something I really want", but that's a rare trait in anyone entering any profession.
That mentality of "do or die" might make a little more sense if we were talking about a field like medicine, where people's actual lives are at stake and there really isn't room in the field for people who just want to treat it like any other job, but jesus, this is just video games. This is something that people do for fun. They should be fun to make. It's not fair to say "You're not worthy to make games if you don't want to devote your life to them".
Fuck GG, fuck GG forever! And fuck the assholes in that article's comment section who are defending it and attacking Brianna. This is the worst thing that ever happened to gaming, bar none. These are actual human beings who are being targeted and threatened, how can these fools not realize that (or even worse, not care about it)?
Or are you trying to say "Death threats and harassment are a part of life, get over it"?
No one needs to go through this shit. No one. If I got even 1% of the messages these women get daily just for doing my job I'd literally go crazy with fear and never leave my house again.
Or are you trying to say "Death threats and harassment are a part of life, get over it"?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Even if no-one actually stabs you there's a very real psychological cost to dealing with this kind of harassment day in and day out. I don't blame anyone who looks at this mess and says "no, I'm sorry, that's not worth it". "is willing to deal with intimate threats on a daily basis" should not be our bar for "women entering the industry"
Oppo
Member
No, it won't. Look at the anti-vax research.
Someone would need to threaten and antagonize a close female friend that they actually respected. It would have to hit close to home. Problem is, some of these people don't have one of those.
I understand your point, but at the same time I don't think you can really decide a reasonable threshold for "ok now this is so much harassment you can't take". I really dislike the martyr complex Wu is crafting for herself, and her attempts to solicit more abuse (such as starting a thread of Steam trying to get people to shit-talk her), but there's no denying some people don't need any help being jerks, and that even if no one is actually going to come to your house and kill you the constant barrage of messages and threats would wear down a lot of people.
Especially to outsiders I can see how it looks so arbitrary that they'd want to stay well clear of the area, and that's unfortunate.
I don't see things getting better until people can be held more accountable for what they say online though, and short of Orwellian measures I don't think a good solution exists. It's a culture issue.
I frequently hear GGers deny this because it supposedly falls into the domain of "feels" as opposed to "reals." It's not even armchair psychology since they seem to be denying psychology altogether when they do this.
This is low.
Stop attacking the victim based on a bunch of nothing. Just full stop.
I don't think I'll ever stop playing games. They've been my main hobby, my fascination, for at least 20 years now. But stories like this DO make me want to cut ties with the gamer community. I'm having a lot of trouble dealing with the toxicity, even though it isn't directed at me.
An example: This morning, as my girlfriend was getting ready for work, she told me about how she embarrassed herself at work yesterday. She just got into gaming in the last few months, and is still learning a lot. Yesterday, shr apparently went on an extended rant about how games are so much deeper than their surface elements and how "it's not just the visuals that are important, the gameplay can be used to enhance the story and themes". (I've been talking about Dark Souls a lot lately)
I love little stories like that. Those are the moments that being a gamer is fantastic, when I get to share my love and joy for this medium with others. But after seeing all the GG news going around, she's become completely uninterested in online games. She seems a bit wary of going to PAX Easy this year, and tbh I'm feeling the same.
It's kinda ridiculous. We should feel safe in our own community. It feels bizzare to worry about this stuff at fucking PAX, which I always found to be a super friendly place. I think this will be one of the longer term effects of GG. One thing they did "right" was bind GG as tightly as they could to the larger gaming community, and I don't expect that association to fade anytime soon.
It sucks to wall myself off from at least part of the community. If that's the price for my piece of mind however, so be it.
An example: This morning, as my girlfriend was getting ready for work, she told me about how she embarrassed herself at work yesterday. She just got into gaming in the last few months, and is still learning a lot. Yesterday, shr apparently went on an extended rant about how games are so much deeper than their surface elements and how "it's not just the visuals that are important, the gameplay can be used to enhance the story and themes". (I've been talking about Dark Souls a lot lately)
I love little stories like that. Those are the moments that being a gamer is fantastic, when I get to share my love and joy for this medium with others. But after seeing all the GG news going around, she's become completely uninterested in online games. She seems a bit wary of going to PAX Easy this year, and tbh I'm feeling the same.
It's kinda ridiculous. We should feel safe in our own community. It feels bizzare to worry about this stuff at fucking PAX, which I always found to be a super friendly place. I think this will be one of the longer term effects of GG. One thing they did "right" was bind GG as tightly as they could to the larger gaming community, and I don't expect that association to fade anytime soon.
It sucks to wall myself off from at least part of the community. If that's the price for my piece of mind however, so be it.
The Jackdog
Member
Bunch of sad sad frustrated lonely people behind this gamergate crusade.
Really unfortunate when a loud minority group bullies someone into thinking thats what the majority thinks.
Really unfortunate when a loud minority group bullies someone into thinking thats what the majority thinks.
Camp Freddie
Member
I agree. Plus, game development is often 'just' a job and a career. Most people don't get into their job or career because it was their dream, and most people have other priorities in their life outside of work.
I expect that most people working in the games industry chose it because it seemed better than the alternatives and was a relatively fun way to earn a living.
I certainly didn't enter my career (science, in the broadest sense) because it was my dream job as a teenager. I did it because it was a 'good' job that I kinda enjoy and it was better than the alternatives (accountancy, law, engineering, etc.)
If I had to deal with harassment on a daily basis, I'd have left my job a long time ago!
Fuck gamergate.
This is very sad, but I'm surprised that the opposite didn't happen. I don't see why these young ladies are abandoning their dreams because of misogynists comments.
A lot of the problems came from unprecedented ideas, most of which were very matriarchal rather then feminist or egalitarian. Which resulted with the misogynists comments, not the other way around.
I dislike Anita, but I don't entirely discredit her. But to this regard, I'd like to blame the majority of Gamegate because of her bad points and other female "feminists" for their absurd behavior towards video games as whole. I personally believe we wouldn't have all these misogynist men making all these hate comments if it weren't for these bad points and comments Anita and other "feminists" have made.
Gamergate has been a complete embarrassment to gaming culture, and nothing good came out of it. I will always remember what someone commented on Neogaf when Gamegate just began. "People are going to be looking back at Gamegate as a blemish in gaming history. After this has died down, the aftermath will be a nucular holocaust that the game industry will take a long time to recover from. The best thing we can do right now is to simply not talk about the events that has happened now and into the coming months if this lasts this long."
A lot of the problems came from unprecedented ideas, most of which were very matriarchal rather then feminist or egalitarian. Which resulted with the misogynists comments, not the other way around.
I dislike Anita, but I don't entirely discredit her. But to this regard, I'd like to blame the majority of Gamegate because of her bad points and other female "feminists" for their absurd behavior towards video games as whole. I personally believe we wouldn't have all these misogynist men making all these hate comments if it weren't for these bad points and comments Anita and other "feminists" have made.
Gamergate has been a complete embarrassment to gaming culture, and nothing good came out of it. I will always remember what someone commented on Neogaf when Gamegate just began. "People are going to be looking back at Gamegate as a blemish in gaming history. After this has died down, the aftermath will be a nucular holocaust that the game industry will take a long time to recover from. The best thing we can do right now is to simply not talk about the events that has happened now and into the coming months if this lasts this long."
nrvalleytime
Member
Welp. Victim blaming at its finest, folks. You can't have it both ways.
Seriously, friend.
Imru al-Qays
Banned
I think you're quite right about this: these guys were surely on the verge of radicalization from the start. But the corollary of this is that this problem is a societal problem, not a problem specifically of the games industry in any meaningful way. We're dealing with a group of people so extreme that they're unreachable by anyone save law enforcement, and what's gotten them to that point has nothing to do with tech industry sexism or AAA companies not being outspoken enough against harassment: these people don't work in games and don't care what major players in the industry have to say.
The reason there's this reservoir of disaffected, self-victimizing young men out there is a failure of our culture perhaps, a failure of mainstream feminism, a function of economic shifts, who knows. They're thickest here, in and around games, only because historically this has been a hobby for guys like them, but the root of the problem lies elsewhere, and the solutions are going to have to come from elsewhere too.
I feel the same way. At least we have GAF. Other communities are horrifying.
Imru al-Qays;151746419 said:
I think there are measured steps we as gamers should continue taking to employ solutions. Solutions need to come from both outside AND within the games industry.
As forum members, and people in the "know", it is our responsibility to take a stand when we are confronted by harassers or witness the harassment of others.
The Smoking Bun
Banned
Holy shit! What are we doing? I think women are mostly welcomed everywhere in terms of jobs with at most an old man crossing his arms and comically exclaiming, "HARUMPH!" but Jesus I have never heard of such a thing where an industry actively poisons itself like this. The whole Industry needs to take some Ethics & Code of Business Conduct trainings arranged by their HR department. I think GamerGate has officially become the world's first white collar terrorist organization.
I honestly think we need a Women's Rights movement for the Games Industry.
I honestly think we need a Women's Rights movement for the Games Industry.
Flying Toaster
Member
Um... ok. I mean I really don't like Anita but I respect the hell out of what she has to say, little things she does such as "damsel in distress Dying Light tweet" irk me but god damn you just want to shut down dialogue over someones opinions that you think are bad points? I am trying to figure out what would be the point in silencing critics. Yeah it would be nice not to deal with drama bombs in our hobby but honestly what does silencing someone that disagrees with you do?
That being said, no one wants to have to wage a daily war with the people who are your primary consumers because you were a woman who dared to make a video game. That is unreasonable. It's cool if you're going at it with a "fight the power" mantra, but for that to be a baseline expectation of a career isn't fair.
You could make the argument of that's what Wu, Sarkeesian and Alexander were doing.
But let's not get it twisted, while there are a lot of documented instances of inappropriate behavior in the gaming industry, the thing that's sinking this ship is flippant attitude that people who see gamergate as a positive crusade against the bullies what ailed us have towards actual meaningful change.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Is that the broader point that you've been driving at this whole time? "Its not a gaming problem, therefore the industry shouldn't say or do anything about it"?Imru al-Qays;151746419 said:
That article about DICE implies that the industry is either completely cowed (by the monster they created) or has its collective fingers in its ears. The quote near the end where a person said if his colleague was taking the heat, he wouldn't help because it might spread to him too...
Makes me want to throw out my games and never buy another one.
I'm having trouble putting into words how disgusted it makes me feel right now to support this fucked up industry.
Makes me want to throw out my games and never buy another one.
I'm having trouble putting into words how disgusted it makes me feel right now to support this fucked up industry.
I've always been sexist. For cultural historical and regional background.
And also because when I started gaming in the early 80's no woman was really interested in it. I'd rather say women were quite bullying and laughing at my hobby at the time so I found quite deserved they were cut-off from the system when the system started to be a moneymaker
BUT
time and cultures are changing and evolving and I must say nowadays I know lot of women REALLY skilled and prepared
They know history of gaming, they know the whos and the whens, they are almost like me, even if I find this statement quite awkward myself
So yeah, I would be sorry if skilled women found entering this business harder than men
And also because when I started gaming in the early 80's no woman was really interested in it. I'd rather say women were quite bullying and laughing at my hobby at the time so I found quite deserved they were cut-off from the system when the system started to be a moneymaker
BUT
time and cultures are changing and evolving and I must say nowadays I know lot of women REALLY skilled and prepared
They know history of gaming, they know the whos and the whens, they are almost like me, even if I find this statement quite awkward myself
So yeah, I would be sorry if skilled women found entering this business harder than men
Imru al-Qays
Banned
I think there's plenty the industry can do to help minimize the fallout - up to creating a legal fund to help victims of harassment sue their harassers? I also think there's plenty the industry can do to attract and nurture female talent independently of Gamergate. But I don't think there's much the industry can do to prevent the harassment from happening in the first place, because for the most part it seems to be coming from outside the industry and the mainstream gaming community.
The point I've been driving at this whole time is that we should actually look at what we know about Gamergate and stop imagining it to be something it's not just because it feels right.
Funyarinpa
Member
That's just saddening.
You know, cause guys handle it so much better. Look at the guy who did ... crap, can't think of the name of the developer or the game. Indie game, was in the indie movie, a lot of people gave him flack. Hell, I'm pretty sure you'll see some people give him flack here. He finally just gave up and said he wasn't going to do a second game because he just didn't want to deal with all the BS people gave him for taking so long to make the first (people also said he was acting like a baby).
It's one thing to say that if it is a few people giving you crap. But you have hundred's of voices harassing you, insulting you, threatening you, and see how well you do. As some one pointed out, even if it's just 1%, 1% of the thousands of voices on the internet is still a helluva lot of voices giving you threats/harassment, etc. And it only takes a tiny percentage of that of people who are seriously crazy for them to actually follow through on just one of those threats... So, now, pick out which threat you need to listen to and which is just people venting out of the hundreds... I'm sure you know exactly who's just mouthing off and which one is the crazy one that really means it.
SimpleGamer
Member
I read about gamer gate like two weeks ago and I still don't understand who they are. What's their purpose?
nrvalleytime
Member
1. You don't get to say sexist because of your background. That's nurture, not nature - those ideas were never okay, even in that time.
2. Women deserved to be cut off because they dared mock an industry? Okay.
3. They are almost like you? You should find that statement awkward, friend. Women are free to critique, create, develop, illustrate, design, enhance, and be entertained in any medium. They don't have to fit a mold, which is part of the problem in the industry.
Gaming won't grow up until it can take criticism from all disciplines, including and especially those outside it.
So, for your personal experiences every woman has to suffer later on. Oh, ok, you have made concessions and now it's ok for us to enjoy them cause now you are seeing some females interested. But apparently all of us deserved a time of being cut off just cause you met some closed minded people that happen to share the same sex as me and other females who likes games.
You do realize that just cause you didn't meet women who liked games back the they didn't exist?
I loved games since the atari age. I never even realized it was supposedly a tomboy habit (I know that liking cars and planes were and that is why I considered myself a tomboy. I considered myself a normal kid though liking video games. Hell... I never even got the impression as a kid that it was considered a "boy" thing).
So, now, if I had decided later on to actually get into making games you'd think I was deserved to be cut out cause you met some females who were closed minded about it? Really?
Harassing and threatening anyone they perceive as socially liberal—especially women—over accusations that turned out to be fabricated as an excuse to harass women. A lot of them also believe that gamers are being persecuted and that these evil progressives are trying to take over the medium of video games.
It's a bunch of horrible bullshit.
chrominance
Member
Unfortunately, you would probably be surprised at just how much this is not the case, and not just in the games or even the tech industry. Or to put it another way, women and minorities are totally welcomed everywhere, but only if your definition of "welcome" is literally "there's no caricature of an old guy exclaiming harrumph!". Salary discrimination, various forms of harassment and fewer opportunities for career advancement are still significant problems, and arguably make certain types of people feel less welcome than others.
The fact that gaming DOES have the equivalent of the old man exclaiming "harrumph!," under other circumstances, would be comical. But that old man is also driving across the country in a homicidal rage to challenge people to "street races" and calling SWAT teams on people for lulz. Not very funny.
Corronchilejano
Member
I was about to say how I've always though Brianna Wu was a bit over the top. First line:
What the flying fuck. No shit some women don't want to be a part of this, it's like running a race through a minefield.
What the flying fuck. No shit some women don't want to be a part of this, it's like running a race through a minefield.
Honestly, I don't think they have one. I think that many aren't actually purposely being assholes but truly beileve the stuff they spout. I have a friend, not a gamer, who spouts similar stuff about feminism and stuff. He considers himself an MRA (and this is why MRA's have a bad name). I don't even think he realizes why what he does is offensive but truly thinks he's arguing for men's rights (you can't mention feminism without him coming in and asking, "What about the mens?"). He considers me not a feminist because apparently I've passed his test of wanting true equality... feminists are those that just want unequal rights according to him.
I've stopped even trying to argue it with him and block him from anything I say that has to do with equality/feminism. It's just tiring after a while because he will always chime in, "What about the men's"? I will concede every now and then he has a point on something, but in general he just seems to want to sidetrack any conversation I start regarding that topic. But I don't think he purposely wants to keep females down. I think he just doesn't get it. And I suspect a lot of gamergaters are the same way. They see the world through their own views and aren't trying to really understand what is going on. They see feminism as threatening their games and don't actually try to understand any of the arguments cause all they see is, "You must change this to accomodate females" and they expect change means "make it all roses and ponies" and other "girly" stuff (oh, and take out anything offensive even if it has real story purpose). Oh, and wanting no games with male protoganists and GTA not to have prostitutes (which really isn't GTA's problem when it comes to depicting females).
Or, alternatively the guy above who fully admits he's bitter from childhood and how females he met treated him (to be honest, that's no the first time I've seen an argument like that). I think you have some of that too.
I am not sure how many are actually concious of wanting to keep females down (like doing all this on purpose to look like they mean well but really don't and outright know they don't mean well. I think most think they are right and are so biased they can't calm down and realize that maybe at least some of the stuff said about being more open to females isn't really threatening their games).
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
The "traditional" gaming community and the big money gaming industry has been turning into a weird, exaggerated fraternity of a hobby for a while, aided by companies marketing their products to a particular audience to profit from it. Stuff like GG just pulls the curtain back and reveals how common many attitudes are. Shit like the remarks from DICE scarily suggest that certain attitudes aren't just vapid talk from "crazy internet people who don't make any difference". I am not going to blame a woman for taking a look around at the lay of the land, and wondering seriously if this entire scene has fallen into a pit that isn't worth them wasting a decade of their life wading through.
It's not even about how entirely accurate that impression is, which kind of seems to be what some commentators don't get. If a majority of people in the community and industry don't think there's a problem and remain silent (or cowed, hi DICE), it becomes affirmation to both prospective developers and to toxic nerdcore fratboys who think they "own" an entire medium.
It's not even about how entirely accurate that impression is, which kind of seems to be what some commentators don't get. If a majority of people in the community and industry don't think there's a problem and remain silent (or cowed, hi DICE), it becomes affirmation to both prospective developers and to toxic nerdcore fratboys who think they "own" an entire medium.
RpgN
Junior Member
I've asked this before (in another thread) but didn't get any replies. All I remember reading when it first happened and a couple of months later.
Court proceedings?
Just what happened with the whole Zoe Quinn story? So it turns out none of it was true? Did she cheat on her ex with 5 different guys or was that a lie too?
IIRC cheating may have occurred but the "sleeping with people for positive reviews" claims were all total bunk. The closest it ever came to that was Depression Quest getting a one-sentence mention in a list of like 50 indie games for a certain month, all of which got the same amount of coverage.
So yeah, it's just stuff about her personal life and really none of our business.
Tal Shiar Agent
Banned
This is exactly what GamerGate types like Totalbiscuit want. No women in a position to make good progressive changes to games. They want year inclusive, boys club, misogynistic, trope laden games to stay the same.
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