Varys sent the order to kill Daenerys from Robert in Season 1, the show flip flopping him into a Targaryen loyalist is a straight retcon
-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 5 - Sundays on HBO
- Thread starter Steelyuhas
- Start date
- Status
Varys sent the order to kill Daenerys from Robert in Season 1, the show flip flopping him into a Targaryen loyalist is a straight retcon
Was it ever said what was in the letter Jorah received from Varys before the assassination attempt? I figured it was a warning.
Edit: Pardon in the show, warning in the books apparently
Also, from the book it was said that they didn't actually hire anyone.
One other thing to keep in mind is that Dany being killed would have eliminated a possible challenger to Aegon while motivating the Dothraki to invade. Success or failure benefited their cause.
Edit: Pardon in the show, warning in the books apparently
Also, from the book it was said that they didn't actually hire anyone.
One other thing to keep in mind is that Dany being killed would have eliminated a possible challenger to Aegon while motivating the Dothraki to invade. Success or failure benefited their cause.
As you said, it was Robert's order. We also saw Varys and Illyrio meeting in secret at King's Landing where they were very clearly working together on the Targaryen plot. It's not inconsistent going back to episode 5 of season 1. What he does in public while serving one king does not have to align with what his actual motivations are, which have seemed to be supporting Targaryens as early as season 1.
Then I'm totally confused. He was talking with his friend in season 1, episode 5 about Dany. Illryo definitely supported the Targaryens.
I thought Varys was always keeping an eye on Dany, but secretly wanted her to succeed.
BobTheFork
Member
I thought the idea was to kill Dany while Veserys will still alive to incite the Dothraki to come to Westeros and Veserys to take the throne. During their planning, they never talk about what a useless shite he was so I assume they didn't really know or didn't care he was unfit to rule.
After he died, they needed Dany because she was all that's left and that's before she became the BMF of Dragons.
After he died, they needed Dany because she was all that's left and that's before she became the BMF of Dragons.
WaffleTaco
Wants to outlaw technological innovation.
Am I in the right thread?? Varys wanted Danerys killed so it would give Viserys and Khal Drogo's Dothraki's a reason to invade Westeros, that way Faegon could come in and save the day and be viewed as a hero.
The show in Season 1 followed the book plot almost verbatim except for Tyrion's battle scene, and I think some Sansa scenes. Along with some details about the North from Bran viewpoint.
The show in Season 1 followed the book plot almost verbatim except for Tyrion's battle scene, and I think some Sansa scenes. Along with some details about the North from Bran viewpoint.
Well, you can't take book stuff that was never in the show and apply it to the show. What we saw is Varys supporting the reinstallation of a Targaryen ruler. It's not crazy to think that, several years later after all the shit that has happened, he'd still support the reinstallation of a Targaryen ruler even if it's a different one. The info the show has given us seems to be internally consistent as far as Varys' motivations.
One character in this explanation does not exist in the show.
Latvian Hitman
Member
I didn't.
?
Not sure if you actually read what I posted. It wasn't his tendency to manipulate others or his hunger for power that I was questioning. He's being borderline reckless, even with his own skin, so far in S5. That ain't Littlefinger.
WaffleTaco
Wants to outlaw technological innovation.
Yeah I just re-listened and read some information on Varys on Season 1 and it makes sense without Aegon, my bad.
Read my above post. In season 1, episode 5 he's talking to Illryo Mopatis about the Targaryens. Being a primarily show watcher, especially with his comments to Oberyn last year, I always got the impression that Varys thought little of the Lannisters, Starks, and Baratheons. He's from Essos and wants the Targaryens back. Again, I've only read cliffs notes of the books and this has been my impression from the show. It was Robert who wanted Dany dead. Varys wouldn't have made that call, though he was obliged to agree with it.
I read what you posted, but I think Littlefinger knows that the Boltons can't kill Sansa, and he has taken a calculated risk that they might abuse her. He plans to rally the northern houses against the Boltons and kill them, and needs a Stark to do it.
I thought his speech to Sansa was less "Darth Sansa" and more "You are the only living Stark. Start acting like it." I doubt Sansa has any intention of acting out of character, but she does need to stop crying. I imagine Littlefinger will be doing the revenge part, but he can't let Sansa know what his plan is for fear they'll beat it out of her.
Of course, the fact that Arya identified herself to the knights of the Vale last year was very puzzling since anyone of any consequence would have grabbed her at that moment.
Latvian Hitman
Member
He knows Stannis is about to attack Winterfell. He knows chaos will ensue. By placing Sansa there now, as opposed to just waiting until the Stannis/Bolton conflict is decided, he runs a high risk of losing the key to the north.
Now, after helping assassinate Joff, and after marrying off Sansa (who Cersei also wants dead like nobody's business) to the Boltons, he's going back to KL because he "doesn't want her to suspect anything?"
Ridiculous.
WaffleTaco
Wants to outlaw technological innovation.
Wasn't he called back to King's Landing in order to help with finances? After all he is still Master of Coin right?
PhoenixDark
Banned
Illyrio: Drogo won't attack before his son is born, we need to delay our plans
Varys: We need to speed up our plans. Now is the time to attack.
Immediately afterward: assassination attempt on Dany.
Reaction: Drogo decides to attack Westeros.
I don't think Dany was particularly important to their plans. She was expendable, and a potential catalyst to convince Drogo to invade faster. It worked.
Personally I think the plan was indeed as it was described in ADWD: Viserys was to lead the Dothraki (with Drogo) to meet Aegon and the Golden Company and prepare for the invasion. I just think Viserys was supposed to land first and strike the first blow. No doubt the savagery of the Dothraki and Viserys' madness would be a devastating threat to an already weakened Westeros. They'd raid and pillage while making few allies.
Then Aegon would land elsewhere and declare war against Viserys. The son of beloved Rhaegar against the Mad Son of the Mad King. Westeros would rally to Aegon and quickly depose of Viserys. And Aegon would be given the throne.
In short it's the exact plot Varys and Illyrio ran when they were young criminals; Varys stole information from the rich, and the rich paid Illyrio to get it back. In this case they'd steal Westeros and convince the people to give them the throne in order to win the country back.
Varys: We need to speed up our plans. Now is the time to attack.
Immediately afterward: assassination attempt on Dany.
Reaction: Drogo decides to attack Westeros.
I don't think Dany was particularly important to their plans. She was expendable, and a potential catalyst to convince Drogo to invade faster. It worked.
Personally I think the plan was indeed as it was described in ADWD: Viserys was to lead the Dothraki (with Drogo) to meet Aegon and the Golden Company and prepare for the invasion. I just think Viserys was supposed to land first and strike the first blow. No doubt the savagery of the Dothraki and Viserys' madness would be a devastating threat to an already weakened Westeros. They'd raid and pillage while making few allies.
Then Aegon would land elsewhere and declare war against Viserys. The son of beloved Rhaegar against the Mad Son of the Mad King. Westeros would rally to Aegon and quickly depose of Viserys. And Aegon would be given the throne.
In short it's the exact plot Varys and Illyrio ran when they were young criminals; Varys stole information from the rich, and the rich paid Illyrio to get it back. In this case they'd steal Westeros and convince the people to give them the throne in order to win the country back.
Latvian Hitman
Member
Littlefinger's not the Master of Coin anymore. Mace Tyrell is. (Soon to be was, I fear.)
I'm sure LF will wind up doing something meaningful in KL, otherwise they wouldn't be writing him there, (I'm sure they have a tentpole he needs to hit) I just don't think he would actually go. If Cersei has gotten wind of, well, literally anything he's been up to while he was away, he's a dead man.
bodyofanamerican
Member
I don't know what the actual reason he's going back is, but D&D need him there to get captured by the Faith Militant and sell Cersei out to them in order to get free. That's what they're writing towards, I guarantee it.
Latvian Hitman
Member
I'll buy it.
I'll buy that as well. Pretty much anyone with a Mannis avatar has my full and undivided attention at all times.
That may have been the case at the time as the book and show plots matched more closely, but the behind the scenes changes (like removing Aegon and making Varys support Dany now in the story) don't contradict what we saw of Varys' motivations and the information that scene provided us at the time.
Until Aegon is introduced in the show he doesn't exist.
I think she wants him back so that he can testify against Loras, or compel Olyvar to testify against Loras. But yeah, bringing LF back will backfire just as hard as every other move she's made.
bengraven
Member
Yup, without Aegon Varys totally (and always) supporting Dany now makes zero sense. But what do you expect? It's not like D&D knew all the way back in S1 that they would be cutting Aegon.
I think you maybe misread my post? Varys supporting Targaryens does make sense even with behind the scenes changes. Him and Ilyrio were plotting to get Drogo's army to attack Westeros, and at the time of their conversation Viserys was still alive so it can be presumed they are attacking with him leading. At that point they wouldn't have known that Viserys would ruin his own chances by getting himself skull-melted in the next episode, and that Dany would come forward as the stronger Targaryen leader. So now, after things in Westeros have unraveled even further it's not inconsistent that Varys would support Dany for the throne. In his convo with Tyrion earlier this season I believe he says he's supported the Targaryen restoration to the throne, not specifically the Dany restoration. He's been pulling strings for the Targaryen name the whole time, which checks out with what we saw in season 1, with him and Ilyrio working together to get Drogo's army for Viserys and pushing for them to attack Westeros.
Wait, yeah I misread your post. I don't think that makes any sense. Varys attempted to poison Dany, he couldn't have know for sure that Mormont would have a change of heart and save her life. Also, them fully backing a Dothraki invasion seems especially odd considering they are ruthless savages. Without Aegon as a counter to that madness their plan seems really dumb.
A Dothraki invasion led by Viserys Targaryen, whom was promised the backing of the Dothraki army in exchange for his sister's hand in marriage. Again, I believe it was Robert who ordered the assassination, on both Dany and Viserys, not Varys. I only recall we see Robert ordering the assassination and that causing Ned to quit being Hand. And in any case the poisoning of Dany would have caused Viserys and the Dothraki to attack, accelerating Varys and Ilyrio's plans, essentially exactly as Phoenix described above only minus Aegon being involved (and it's worth pointing out that the assassination is ordered in episode 5, and Viserys dies in episode 6, so Varys wouldn't have known the poisoning would have been endangering the only Targ left alive at that point). But like I said, he's supporting a Targaryen on the throne. He may have shifted from Viserys to Dany, but his support for the family name hasn't changed, as per the info the show has given us anyways.
badcrumble
Member
He also told his spy Jorah Mormont exactly what would be happening because his REAL plan was to get Daenarys to trust Jorah more (and accelerate war against Westeros). This is also how it works in the books.
Varys never intended for Daenarys to get successfully poisoned.
I don't know why people don't get this.
eot
Banned
Zeouterlimits
Member
Villain might be a bit much, but she's at the very least quite morally grey.
badcrumble
Member
Yes and no. I think he's counting on the fact that both the Boltons and Stannis need her in order to unite the currently-unstable North, so neither side will want her to come to harm. I don't think he's got much reason to worry about Sansa's well-being.
However, if he's still in King's Landing at the same time that Sansa's re-emergence into the public eye becomes known (via raven or whatever), he's a colossal idiot and Cersei will kill him. His doing what he's doing with Sansa already threatens to unravel and expose his participation in the plot to assassinate Joffrey.
The parts of what he's doing that are stupid definitely put him in danger in a way that I think is uncharacteristic for his character, but Sansa's pretty safe no matter what, I think.
Melisandre's not so much a villain, she's more like an incredibly committed and enthusiastic idiot.
But many of the ASOIAF villains (Cersei and Tywin, at least) have reasoning and motivations behind their actions and aren't just bloodthirsty sociopaths (for that we've got Joffrey and Ramsay). Melisandre's done some bad shit in the name of her one-woman crusade for sure, but I don't think that's necessarily sufficient to call her an out-and-out villain.
I think it's just kind of an unavoidable risk he has to take because Cersei is summoning him. He has to go since he can't let her get suspicious. And there might even be more to his plan than we know yet as well.
Unless his legions of spies failed to tell him what is happening in Kings Landing he is colossal idiot for going back at all.
That is not what happened at all, Varys had no idea that Mormont would renege on a pardon and save Daenerys life. Varys plot was to accelerate the dothraki invasion with Viserys, Daenerys dying was going to happen if not for Jorah's change of heart
Killing one of the last two legitimate Targaryen's to invoke a dothraki invasion doesn't seem like a Targaryen loyalist move. The likelihood of their success at that time was slim to none with the kingdom still united under Robert. This only makes sense with the book knowledge of Faegon and the Golden Company swooping in after the war had weakened both sides and left them vulnerable.
Well since the very idea of a hidden Targaryen brother is so soap opera-ish and stupid, I'm glad they had the sense to leave that out. Jon is enough Targaryen for everyone.
Ganzlinger
Member
I wouldn't be so sure. Maybe show Varys... D&D put him as an opponet for the evil Littlefinger.
In the books, he would kill to get his plans working. Pregnant Dany and Kevan for example.
Well, I'm pretty sure she isn't a hero. She is a fanatic and I don't like fanatics.
Byakuya769
Member
He orchestrated for Jorah to know about it beforehand.
CitizenVectron
Member
Is there any evidence of that?
Byakuya769
Member
In the show? The "pardon" message he received could have served as one.
Moff
Member
robert decided to kill dany in episode 5
viserys died in episode 6
varys didn't initially plan for her to be the queen, she was just supposed to be the victim. but that's the whole point of her story, she starts as a sex slave sold to a warlord and becomes the dragon queen. and varys is no fool and adapted to that.
viserys died in episode 6
varys didn't initially plan for her to be the queen, she was just supposed to be the victim. but that's the whole point of her story, she starts as a sex slave sold to a warlord and becomes the dragon queen. and varys is no fool and adapted to that.
bodyofanamerican
Member
Huh, would you look at that. D&D confirmed that it actually IS Robert's feather that Sansa found in the Winterfell crypt.
D&D Interview about the feather
D&D Interview about the feather
I assumed that's why they showed Robert placing the feather in the "previously on" before the episode.
Here's a question I have.
Take two scenes in mind. There's one in which Tyrion sees a red priestess saying an identical sermon to the lord of light as one Melisandre previously said, but promises that Dany is the lord's chosen (the dragon queen). Then there's the last episode when Melisandre attempts to breed more shadow babies with Jon.
So has Melisandre really seen a new lord's chosen, or do professors of the lord of light simply choose to follow whatever prophet is convenient? Do they really see anyone?
Take two scenes in mind. There's one in which Tyrion sees a red priestess saying an identical sermon to the lord of light as one Melisandre previously said, but promises that Dany is the lord's chosen (the dragon queen). Then there's the last episode when Melisandre attempts to breed more shadow babies with Jon.
So has Melisandre really seen a new lord's chosen, or do professors of the lord of light simply choose to follow whatever prophet is convenient? Do they really see anyone?
Perhaps all 3 of them are needed in the grand scheme of things, but the priestesses talk a big game to them individually to make them think they are uniquely chosen, so that they get shit done.
Melisandre sure likes reminding Stannis of how important/mighty/special he is.
I get the sense there's room for a lot of "user error" with religion in the show/books. They may see things in the flames, but it's up to them to translate what they see, so they may favor things they have a preference for. There's a lot of regular sleight-of-hand magic going on along with the real stuff (I recall Mel stating as such at some point too?). Anytime Mel sees an important dude in the flames, for example, she's gonna say it's Stannis because that suits her and her situation. But sometimes things poke through that they can't ignore or translate incorrectly, like Mel with Jon.
They have a vague idea of their messiah in mind and choose as best as they can. Since there's no strong central structure to their faith it's a matter of individual priests going with their gut and choosing the first figure who seems to fit enough of the criteria. So yeah it's basically just a guess and some of wishful thinking.
Benerro/Moqorro in the books and that female red priest in the show think it's Dany. Melisandre thinks it's Stannis and maybe will switch to Jon. Thoros of Myr had Beric Dondarrion (though I don't remember if he really believed Beric was the chosen one or just thought he was a swell guy). And even though Show Melisandre and Show Thoros met up for a while, I doubt the various red priests collaborate and debate the merits of their beliefs. They're just doing things on their own, guided by their own varying levels of religious fervor.
"Lucifer" from the Latin lux (light) and the root fer- (bring). Azor Ahai, the Lord of Light's chosen champion, wields Lightbringer, the sword literally named Lucifer.
- Status