Jeb Bush says, like his brother, he would have gone to war with Iraq

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The illegal invasion of Iraq was not initiated due to the intelligence provided but because it was a policy to go to war with Iraq and the intelligence services were forced to provide intelligence to support the policy.

An intelligent president will make decisions based on facts and not manufacture "facts" based on already made decisions.
 
Wow, one way to differentiate yourself from an awful president (Bush) that is also your brother and the most likely Democratic challenger Hillary; you failed at. Lmao.
 
A combination of bad intelligence and outright lies by the Bush administration got the United States into a decade long war, illegally, with a Country that neither sponsored terrorism against the United States nor had weapons of mass destruction (while the US was allied with Countries that both sponsor terrorism and have nuclear programs). It got 4500 American soldiers killed and incurred hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi casualties.

The post-Hussien political climate of Iraq helped give birth to ISIS, a far more extreme terrorist group that Al Queda ever was, and hundreds of thousands more will die at their hands.

There is not even the tiniest, smallest, quark-sized reason it should have happened.

Thats an outright lie, the whole "Iraq had no terror connection". The Palestinian rejectionist Abu Nidal, who was among other things behind the Rome and Vienna airport attacks and is estimated to have killed over 900 people, was openly living in Iraq and in defiance of the Jordanian government, whose state security court had, in 2001, sentenced him to death in absentia for his role in the 1994 assassination of a Jordanian diplomat in Beirut. Muhammad Zaidan a.k.a. Abbu Abbas, founder of the PLF that was responsible for the Achille Lauro cruise ship hijacking, and the murder of Leon Klinghoffer by shooting him and having him thrown overboard off his wheelchair, was actually under arrest in Italy after that incident. He had to be let go however, when they found out he was traveling on an Iraqi diplomatic passport, and was subsequently sheltered from extradition in Baghdad until Saddam's removal in 2003. Then there is also Mehmet Yassin, the man who mixed the chemicals for the bombs intended to blow up the World Trade Center in 1993. When the FBI stupidly gave him bail, he flew straight to Iraq, a country that was at that time as difficult to leave as it was to enter... You mentioned Al Qaeda in Iraq/Mesopotamia; I assume then that you know that Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the group's founder, was operating in Iraq well before the coalition got there. (on AQI I will expand further on) If this active support of killers and nihilists is not convincing enough for you, there was the public offer of $25,000 to the family of every 'martyred' Palestinian suicide murderer; this was accompanied more generally by the shift of support from the secular nationalist Palestinian movement to jihadist and sectarian organizations (see above). If you don't find that bad enough in itself, consider how many Palestinian and Israeli lives were wasted by this sabotage of peace negotiations. The official rhetoric of his Ba'ath party also underwent a degeneration into depraved and demented jihadist rantings, where you had things like Saddam calling for a 'common jihad' against the West and writing a Quran in his own blood. Iraq was also the only country in the world to officially celebrate the 9/11 attacks, at a time when even Iran and Saudi Arabia were offering consolations. In the immediate beginning of the 2003 intervention, Naji Sabry Al-Hadithi, then Saddam's last foreign minister, wrote a letter to the dictator (originally published by Patrick Cockburn) where he said that it was "distressing... to see the reports of Iraqi civilians rushing forward to greet advancing American and British soldiers". Instead he suggested that the 'suicide-martyrs' of the paramilitary Fedayeen Saddam should disguise themselves as civilians and detonate themselves when near the soldiers to teach the Iraqis to stay away. The disgusting cynicism of this tactic should be obvious enough, but interesting to note is how this concedes the point that Iraq already had 'suicide-martyr' squads to dispose with anyway... thus to give the lie to the notion that Saddam was somehow a secular leader, let alone a stabilizing one. This was also during the period when the anti-war movement claimed that Iraq had 'no terror connection'. The Iraqi Intelligence Service had even tried to assassinate George Bush senior in 1993, after he had left office. This actually insane plot was turned, along with everything else, into a cheap sneer aimed at his son by the anti-war movement, claiming that he was angry about Iraq only because they had tried to kill his "dad" (though why shouldn't he be?).

But I am getting ahead of myself, so allow me to backtrack a bit and examine the response of the West, the UN and international law since that historic mistake of leaving Saddam in power in 1991. The widespread corruption within the UN is an important issue, but there is also the serious problem of the seventeen separate resolutions on the question of disarmament, culminating in UNSC Resolution 1441, which was effectively a "a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations" resolution - it forbade the making of any additional resolutions on disarmament and called for an "immediate, unconditional and active" cooperation with UNMOVIC, which never came. In February 2003 Iraq was also found to be in material breach of UNSCR 1441 with its al-Samoud 2 missiles, the firing range of which exceeded the amount permitted by the resolution (it is often forgot that the disarmament resolutions were not just about WMDs). Saddam's consistent failure to comply with any measures since 1991 was punished repeatedly by Clinton's administration, with strikes against Iraq in 1993, 1996 and 1998. To put this in context, this was at the time of the Rwandan genocide, of the raging civil war in Sierra Leone instigated by Charles Taylor (Tony Blair getting particular credit for stopping that one) and Milosevic's attempts to ethnically cleanse Bosnia and Kosovo; in other words, a time when the Western world was waking up to the fact that coexistence with these genocideurs was not only undesirable, but impossible. The spectacular UN failures in Rwanda and former Yugoslavia in particular highlight the responsibilities that NATO had to take on, and which forged a firm if eclectic partnership between various European countries and the U.S. on this key issue. The governments of these countries recognized the danger of Saddam Hussein's regime, along with the others', early on. The Iraqi Liberation Act of 1998 was passed with an absolute majority in the U.S. House of Representatives and unanimously by the Senate. Signed into law by Bill Clinton, it made clear that "it should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime." In April 1999, Tony Blair made a speech in Chicago, extolling the virtues of internationalism and laying out the case against despots, with specific references to Saddam Hussein and Slobodan Milosevic. George W. Bush, if you remember, was then still an isolationist governor of Texas...
 
Thats an outright lie, the whole "Iraq had no terror connection". The Palestinian rejectionist Abu Nidal, who was among other things behind the Rome and Vienna airport attacks and is estimated to have killed over 900 people, was openly living in Iraq and in defiance of the Jordanian government, whose state security court had, in 2001, sentenced him to death in absentia for his role in the 1994 assassination of a Jordanian diplomat in Beirut. Muhammad Zaidan a.k.a. Abbu Abbas, founder of the PLF that was responsible for the Achille Lauro cruise ship hijacking, and the murder of Leon Klinghoffer by shooting him and having him thrown overboard off his wheelchair, was actually under arrest in Italy after that incident. He had to be let go however, when they found out he was traveling on an Iraqi diplomatic passport, and was subsequently sheltered from extradition in Baghdad until Saddam's removal in 2003. Then there is also Mehmet Yassin, the man who mixed the chemicals for the bombs intended to blow up the World Trade Center in 1993. When the FBI stupidly gave him bail, he flew straight to Iraq, a country that was at that time as difficult to leave as it was to enter... You mentioned Al Qaeda in Iraq/Mesopotamia; I assume then that you know that Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the group's founder, was operating in Iraq well before the coalition got there. (on AQI I will expand further on) If this active support of killers and nihilists is not convincing enough for you, there was the public offer of $25,000 to the family of every 'martyred' Palestinian suicide murderer; this was accompanied more generally by the shift of support from the secular nationalist Palestinian movement to jihadist and sectarian organizations (see above). If you don't find that bad enough in itself, consider how many Palestinian and Israeli lives were wasted by this sabotage of peace negotiations. The official rhetoric of his Ba'ath party also underwent a degeneration into depraved and demented jihadist rantings, where you had things like Saddam calling for a 'common jihad' against the West and writing a Quran in his own blood. Iraq was also the only country in the world to officially celebrate the 9/11 attacks, at a time when even Iran and Saudi Arabia were offering consolations. In the immediate beginning of the 2003 intervention, Naji Sabry Al-Hadithi, then Saddam's last foreign minister, wrote a letter to the dictator (originally published by Patrick Cockburn) where he said that it was "distressing... to see the reports of Iraqi civilians rushing forward to greet advancing American and British soldiers". Instead he suggested that the 'suicide-martyrs' of the paramilitary Fedayeen Saddam should disguise themselves as civilians and detonate themselves when near the soldiers to teach the Iraqis to stay away. The disgusting cynicism of this tactic should be obvious enough, but interesting to note is how this concedes the point that Iraq already had 'suicide-martyr' squads to dispose with anyway... thus to give the lie to the notion that Saddam was somehow a secular leader, let alone a stabilizing one. This was also during the period when the anti-war movement claimed that Iraq had 'no terror connection'. The Iraqi Intelligence Service had even tried to assassinate George Bush senior in 1993, after he had left office. This actually insane plot was turned, along with everything else, into a cheap sneer aimed at his son by the anti-war movement, claiming that he was angry about Iraq only because they had tried to kill his "dad" (though why shouldn't he be?).

But I am getting ahead of myself, so allow me to backtrack a bit and examine the response of the West, the UN and international law since that historic mistake of leaving Saddam in power in 1991. The widespread corruption within the UN is an important issue, but there is also the serious problem of the seventeen separate resolutions on the question of disarmament, culminating in UNSC Resolution 1441, which was effectively a "a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations" resolution - it forbade the making of any additional resolutions on disarmament and called for an "immediate, unconditional and active" cooperation with UNMOVIC, which never came. In February 2003 Iraq was also found to be in material breach of UNSCR 1441 with its al-Samoud 2 missiles, the firing range of which exceeded the amount permitted by the resolution (it is often forgot that the disarmament resolutions were not just about WMDs). Saddam's consistent failure to comply with any measures since 1991 was punished repeatedly by Clinton's administration, with strikes against Iraq in 1993, 1996 and 1998. To put this in context, this was at the time of the Rwandan genocide, of the raging civil war in Sierra Leone instigated by Charles Taylor (Tony Blair getting particular credit for stopping that one) and Milosevic's attempts to ethnically cleanse Bosnia and Kosovo; in other words, a time when the Western world was waking up to the fact that coexistence with these genocideurs was not only undesirable, but impossible. The spectacular UN failures in Rwanda and former Yugoslavia in particular highlight the responsibilities that NATO had to take on, and which forged a firm if eclectic partnership between various European countries and the U.S. on this key issue. The governments of these countries recognized the danger of Saddam Hussein's regime, along with the others', early on. The Iraqi Liberation Act of 1998 was passed with an absolute majority in the U.S. House of Representatives and unanimously by the Senate. Signed into law by Bill Clinton, it made clear that "it should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime." In April 1999, Tony Blair made a speech in Chicago, extolling the virtues of internationalism and laying out the case against despots, with specific references to Saddam Hussein and Slobodan Milosevic. George W. Bush, if you remember, was then still an isolationist governor of Texas...

Okay, but: What does any of that have to do with 9/11? And what was the point of invading their country versus any others that are state sponsors of terrorism and destabilizing the entire region, because...?
 
Is it possible to identify the bomb the wrong country gene? You could scan future presidential candidates.
 
Okay, but: What does any of that have to do with 9/11? And what was the point of invading their country versus any others that are state sponsors of terrorism and destabilizing the entire region, because...?

Because that one time Saddam pretended to pray towards Mecca proves that he was actually a crazy religious zealot on a par with Al Qaeda and ISIS innit?
 

First: Formatting. Walls of text are hard to read, especially when they are in rant form.

Secondly, you know damn well what I meant by "state sponsored terrorism against the US". Nobody with half a brain-cell would suggest Iraq had no connection to terrorism or harbor terrorists. Absolutely no country in that corner of the world is innocent of it.

Interesting that we targeted the one country that had one of the thinnest connections with Al Queda, and played no role in 9/11.
 
Also, about this guy:

Thats an outright lie, the whole "Iraq had no terror connection". The Palestinian rejectionist Abu Nidal, who was among other things behind the Rome and Vienna airport attacks and is estimated to have killed over 900 people, was openly living in Iraq and in defiance of the Jordanian government, whose state security court had, in 2001, sentenced him to death in absentia for his role in the 1994 assassination of a Jordanian diplomat in Beirut.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...alestinian-mercenary-was-a-us-spy-972812.html

Iraqi secret police believed that the notorious Palestinian assassin Abu Nidal was working for the Americans as well as Egypt and Kuwait when they interrogated him in Baghdad only months before the Anglo-American invasion of Iraq. Hitherto secret documents which are now in the hands of The Independent – written by Saddam Hussein's brutal security services for Saddam's eyes only – state that he had been "colluding" with the Americans and, with the help of the Egyptians and Kuwaitis, was trying to find evidence linking Saddam and al-Qa'ida.

heh.
 
First: Formatting. Walls of text are hard to read, especially when they are in rant form.

Secondly, you know damn well what I meant by "state sponsored terrorism against the US". Nobody with half a brain-cell would suggest Iraq had no connection to terrorism or harbor terrorists. Absolutely no country in that corner of the world is innocent of it.

Interesting that we targeted the one country that had one of the thinnest connections with Al Queda, and played no role in 9/11.

Yo have to realise that Iraq is the keystone state in the region because it occupies a vitally important place geopolitically between Saudi Arabia and Iran. Thus it cannot be left in the control of a psychopathic crime family.

And the fact that the matter is, that Iraq under Saddam Hussein violated all four conditions upon which a state would sacrifice it's sovereignty. These are:
  1. Having committing or planning to comit genocide against any people
  2. Repeated aggression against neighbouring states
  3. Wanton support for international terrosim
  4. Flounting the terms of the non proliferation treaty and planning to illegally acquire weapons of mass destruction (much less actually using them)
Iraq had violated all four of these repeatedly, and demonstrated every intention of violating them again. It's sovereignty was at an end; the northern and southern zones were patrolled by coalition aircrafts since 1991 in order to prevent the reestablishment of Saddam Hussein's genocidal politics over the Kurdish people.

You might be interested to know, Iraqi forces fired against the coalition aircraft for over 10 years.


Abu Nidal was working out of a Iraqi government office.
If you are willing to take the claims of a permanently paranoid and totalitarian 'secret police' at their face value, by all means...

"The secret papers from Iraq suggest that he did indeed kill himself after confessing to the "treacherous crime of spying against this righteous country"
lmao
 
Yo have to realise that Iraq is the keystone state in the region because it occupies a vitally important place geopolitically between Saudi Arabia and Iran. Thus it cannot be left in the control of a psychopathic crime family.

And the fact that the matter is, that Iraq under Saddam Hussein violated all four conditions upon which a state would sacrifice it's sovereignty. These are:
  1. Having committing or planning to comit genocide against any people
  2. Repeated aggression against neighbouring states
  3. Wanton support for international terrosim
  4. Flounting the terms of the non proliferation treaty and planning to illegally acquire weapons of mass destruction (much less actually using them)
Iraq had violated all four of these repeatedly, and demonstrated every intention of violating them again. It's sovereignty was at an end; the northern and southern zones were patrolled by coalition aircrafts since 1991 in order to prevent the reestablishment of Saddam Hussein's genocidal politics over the Kurdish people.

You might be interested to know, Iraqi forces fired against the coalition aircraft for over 10 years.

And instead, we destabilized the entire region and gave birth to ISIS, because, again, why? Because of 9/11? Because they had weapons of mass destruction? What was actually the reason to invade besides the fact that we "should"?
 
Yo have to realise that Iraq is the keystone state in the region because it occupies a vitally important place geopolitically between Saudi Arabia and Iran. Thus it cannot be left in the control of a psychopathic crime family.

And the fact that the matter is, that Iraq under Saddam Hussein violated all four conditions upon which a state would sacrifice it's sovereignty. These are:
  1. Having committing or planning to comit genocide against any people
  2. Repeated aggression against neighbouring states
  3. Wanton support for international terrosim
  4. Flounting the terms of the non proliferation treaty and planning to illegally acquire weapons of mass destruction (much less actually using them)
Iraq had violated all four of these repeatedly, and demonstrated every intention of violating them again. It's sovereignty was at an end; the northern and southern zones were patrolled by coalition aircrafts since 1991 in order to prevent the reestablishment of Saddam Hussein's genocidal politics over the Kurdish people.

You might be interested to know, Iraqi forces fired against the coalition aircraft for over 10 years.

rofl, invading Iraq in 2003 was warranted because Saddam committed genocide in the eighties? Pull the other one mate.
 
I guess 12 years is about right where the revisionist historians start coming out of the woodwork and miss important facts and context that makes them completely oblivious to how silly they look.

We have entire schools of political thought that have formed around misunderstanding Vietnam and the Cold War so I guess why not Iraq.
 
And instead, we destabilized the entire region and gave birth to ISIS, because, again, why? Because of 9/11? Because they had weapons of mass destruction? What was actually the reason to invade besides the fact that we "should"?

Because anti-war clearly doesn't work at all in your mind, you can have the abomination of Syria since the current ISIL is more Syria than it is Iraq.

rofl, invading Iraq in 2003 was warranted because Saddam committed genocide in the eighties? Pull the other one mate.

Again you demonstrated his clear history, with intent of genocide and breaking UN resolutions. All that the United States asked for from the UN is to enforce these, but fuck it. Lets leave a genocidal psychopath in leadership in an extremely vital zone (perhaps the WORST leader in the middle east since ever). Because hey, he did it in the 80's!!!!
 
Because anti-war clearly doesn't work at all in your mind, you can have the abomination of Syria since the current ISIL is more Syria than it is Iraq.

Okay, despite the fact that you're wrong -- Let's go back to my question:

[W]hy? Because of 9/11? Because they had weapons of mass destruction? What was actually the reason to invade besides the fact that we "should"?

Besides some sort of vague idea that we "should" because Hussein is "bad", why did we invade? What was our goal? What was the purpose? What the point? That's not even related questions of what we accomplished and how much we've destabilized the Middle East since.

Again you demonstrated his clear history, with intent of genocide and breaking UN resolutions. All that the United States asked for from the UN is to enforce these, but fuck it. Lets leave a genocidal psychopath in leadership in an extremely vital zone (perhaps the WORST leader in the middle east since ever). Because hey, he did it in the 80's!!!!

And as we've learned, sometimes that's -- unfortunately -- better than the result of trying to bomb democracy in for no discernible reason.
 
Again you demonstrated his clear history, with intent of genocide and breaking UN resolutions. All that the United States asked for from the UN is to enforce these, but fuck it. Lets leave a genocidal psychopath in leadership in an extremely vital zone (perhaps the WORST leader in the middle east since ever). Because hey, he did it in the 80's!!!!

So where were these weapons of mass destruction?

And actually, yeah the fact that he was a genocidal shitbag in the eighties does matter, because if anyone gave a fuck then why did Saddam stay in power for two more decades?
 
I really don't mind ceding the worst about Saddam's Iraq, because it wouldn't have changed the calculus one bit in any rational analysis. The 2003 invasion wasn't remotely in America's interests, it wasn't in Iraq's interests, and it wasn't in the region's interests. That idea should've been shut down right there.
 
So where were these weapons of mass destruction?

And actually, yeah the fact that he was a genocidal shitbag in the eighties does matter, because if anyone gave a fuck then why did Saddam stay in power for two more decades?

So now you're saying that its good to finally remove him now? I think you're confused about what should be done here. I don't really care when he did it, it's his history that all adds up, and clearly you are ignoring my points about him demonstrating intent, and also breaking the multiple realisations which supported it.

And on your note of WMD's:
"The war with Saddam Hussein did not actually begin in March 2003, as you well know. It began with his 1991 annexation of Kuwait, which was reversed by the U.S.-led intervention and whereupon his insane plans for a nuclear weapons system, among other things, were exposed. With his army crushed and on the run it would have been relatively straightforward to remove him there and then, but the debate was instead won by the realpolitik crowd (e.g. Kissinger/Scowcroft types who were also not-coincidentally against the 2003 war). In what has turned out to be one of the worst mistakes of American statecraft in recent decades, Saddam was confirmed in power and his gunships were left to re-establish their genocidal control over Iraq. In exchange for this, of course, were the sanctions and the WMD inspections. The Iraqis could have been spared 10 more years of tyranny and starvation under Saddam, but instead they had to face another campaign of slaughter (the gunships proved useful) in the 1991 uprisings against him, while there were still thousands of U.S. troops still on Iraqi soil, sometimes close enough to watch. At least the coalition forces imposed a no-fly zone over Kurdistan, effectively liberating the Kurds from Saddam, but even then the Iraqi forces fired on the planes patrolling the no-fly zone almost every single day for the next 10 years.

From then on the story of Saddam's demented regime is generally well-known. He had flagrantly violated almost every single call to inspections, and terrorized his own scientists into non-compliance with inspection teams. One of these scientists was Dr. Mahdi Obeidi, who was actually instructed to bury a nuclear centrifuge (which is the absolutely key piece of equipment for the enrichment of uranium) and blueprints in his garden and revealed them to coalition forces in 2003. (For more info on this and on scientists inside Iraq during the sanction period, see The Bomb in My Garden https://www.cia.gov/library/center-...studies/studies/vol48no4/bombs_in_garden.html).

Then there was the well-documented attempt to buy illegal missile delivery systems off-the-shelf from North Korea in Syria as late as February 2003, one month before the invasion. Also interesting is the fact that Wissam Zahawi, the then-diplomatic envoy at the Vatican and one of Saddam's former chief envoys in nuclear matters, had made a discreet side trip to Niger at about the same time that A.Q. Khan was there as well. (A.Q. Khan is, if you don't know, the notorious Pakistani black market proprietor that had supplied fissile material to Libya, North Korea and quite probably to Syria as well.) Now while that doesn't exactly prove anything, what is the likelihood that Iraq's top European envoy and a senior Pakistani nuclear black-marketeer simultaneously chose an off-season holiday in a country known primarily for its production of yellowcake uranium... In fact, there actually were WMDs (about 5000 chemical warheads) found in Iraq after the intervention, as a recent New York Times report chronicles. (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...t/us-casualties-of-iraq-chemical-weapons.html) While they were not 100% modern and weaponized, they still contained dangerous materials and could have easily been turned into some other kind of chemical weapon. More importantly, they reaffirm the fact that Iraq was in direct and unquestionable breach of every single UN disarmament resolution, and yet there are still people today who say that the words 'Iraq' and 'WMD' cannot be mentioned in the same sentence...

The fact that Iraq's concealment efforts and its consistent obstruction of inspection teams itself constituted a most serious breach of international resolutions and agreements is indisputable. What's even more unbelievable though, is the massive campaign of corruption and bribery undertaken by Iraq within and outside the UN. Rolf Ekéus, the Swedish Social Democrat and director of the United Nations Special Commission on Iraq between 1991 and 1997, was offered by Tariq Aziz (deputy Prime Minister) in person, to his face, a bribe of a million and a half dollars to change his inspection report. In other words: "It's the tip of the iceberg of what the Iraqis were offering. For every official like Ekéus who turned down a bribe, there are many more who will have been tempted by it." (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...485500/Saddams-2m-offer-to-WMD-inspector.html).

Where did this money come from? It was siphoned off from the UN Oil-for-Food programme, put in place to alleviate the suffering of Iraqis under sanctions. The level of corruption surrounding this programme is simply astounding, ranging from corporations to political officials, including very serious allegations against (amazingly) a sitting member of British parliament, George Galloway. There is no question that this can be added, along with Rwanda, Bosnia and Kosovo, to the long list of UN failures. Impossible to ignore too is the fact that while Saddam had embezzled over 1 and a half billion dollars from this scheme, ordinary Iraqis lived in poverty and in dire want of basic medical supplies, and it is estimated by UNICEF that up to 500,000 Iraqi children died needlessly as a result. The usual anti-war crowd protested, unsurprisingly, in order to have the sanctions lifted. What sort of pseudo-humanitarianism is this? Surely the lifting of sanctions can only be enabled by the removal of the regime that necessitates them? But when confronted with this possibility, the same people fell silent, apparently preferring the status quo.. ('sure, Iraqi lives are important, but not THAT important')."
 
I really don't mind ceding the worst about Saddam's Iraq, because it wouldn't have changed the calculus one bit in any rational analysis. The 2003 invasion wasn't remotely in America's interests, it wasn't in Iraq's interests, and it wasn't in the region's interests. That idea should've been shut down right there.

Exactly. It doesn't matter how bad he was. He was terrible! That changes nothing.
 
Is there a conspiracy among the republicans to get Hillary elected?
Or maybe that's exactly it?

Republicans actually WANT Hillary in the White House, do that means I should not vote for Hillary?

I'm so confused now.
 
So now you're saying that its good to finally remove him now? I think you're confused about what should be done here. I don't really care when he did it, it's his history that all adds up, and clearly you are ignoring my points about him demonstrating intent, and also breaking the multiple realisations which supported it.

And on your note of WMD's:
"The war with Saddam Hussein did not actually begin in March 2003, as you well know. It began with his 1991 annexation of Kuwait, which was reversed by the U.S.-led intervention and whereupon his insane plans for a nuclear weapons system, among other things, were exposed. With his army crushed and on the run it would have been relatively straightforward to remove him there and then, but the debate was instead won by the realpolitik crowd (e.g. Kissinger/Scowcroft types who were also not-coincidentally against the 2003 war). In what has turned out to be one of the worst mistakes of American statecraft in recent decades, Saddam was confirmed in power and his gunships were left to re-establish their genocidal control over Iraq. In exchange for this, of course, were the sanctions and the WMD inspections. The Iraqis could have been spared 10 more years of tyranny and starvation under Saddam, but instead they had to face another campaign of slaughter (the gunships proved useful) in the 1991 uprisings against him, while there were still thousands of U.S. troops still on Iraqi soil, sometimes close enough to watch. At least the coalition forces imposed a no-fly zone over Kurdistan, effectively liberating the Kurds from Saddam, but even then the Iraqi forces fired on the planes patrolling the no-fly zone almost every single day for the next 10 years.

From then on the story of Saddam's demented regime is generally well-known. He had flagrantly violated almost every single call to inspections, and terrorized his own scientists into non-compliance with inspection teams. One of these scientists was Dr. Mahdi Obeidi, who was actually instructed to bury a nuclear centrifuge (which is the absolutely key piece of equipment for the enrichment of uranium) and blueprints in his garden and revealed them to coalition forces in 2003. (For more info on this and on scientists inside Iraq during the sanction period, see The Bomb in My Garden https://www.cia.gov/library/center-...studies/studies/vol48no4/bombs_in_garden.html).

Then there was the well-documented attempt to buy illegal missile delivery systems off-the-shelf from North Korea in Syria as late as February 2003, one month before the invasion. Also interesting is the fact that Wissam Zahawi, the then-diplomatic envoy at the Vatican and one of Saddam's former chief envoys in nuclear matters, had made a discreet side trip to Niger at about the same time that A.Q. Khan was there as well. (A.Q. Khan is, if you don't know, the notorious Pakistani black market proprietor that had supplied fissile material to Libya, North Korea and quite probably to Syria as well.) Now while that doesn't exactly prove anything, what is the likelihood that Iraq's top European envoy and a senior Pakistani nuclear black-marketeer simultaneously chose an off-season holiday in a country known primarily for its production of yellowcake uranium... In fact, there actually were WMDs (about 5000 chemical warheads) found in Iraq after the intervention, as a recent New York Times report chronicles. (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...t/us-casualties-of-iraq-chemical-weapons.html) While they were not 100% modern and weaponized, they still contained dangerous materials and could have easily been turned into some other kind of chemical weapon. More importantly, they reaffirm the fact that Iraq was in direct and unquestionable breach of every single UN disarmament resolution, and yet there are still people today who say that the words 'Iraq' and 'WMD' cannot be mentioned in the same sentence...

The fact that Iraq's concealment efforts and its consistent obstruction of inspection teams itself constituted a most serious breach of international resolutions and agreements is indisputable. What's even more unbelievable though, is the massive campaign of corruption and bribery undertaken by Iraq within and outside the UN. Rolf Ekéus, the Swedish Social Democrat and director of the United Nations Special Commission on Iraq between 1991 and 1997, was offered by Tariq Aziz (deputy Prime Minister) in person, to his face, a bribe of a million and a half dollars to change his inspection report. In other words: "It's the tip of the iceberg of what the Iraqis were offering. For every official like Ekéus who turned down a bribe, there are many more who will have been tempted by it." (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...485500/Saddams-2m-offer-to-WMD-inspector.html).

Where did this money come from? It was siphoned off from the UN Oil-for-Food programme, put in place to alleviate the suffering of Iraqis under sanctions. The level of corruption surrounding this programme is simply astounding, ranging from corporations to political officials, including very serious allegations against (amazingly) a sitting member of British parliament, George Galloway. There is no question that this can be added, along with Rwanda, Bosnia and Kosovo, to the long list of UN failures. Impossible to ignore too is the fact that while Saddam had embezzled over 1 and a half billion dollars from this scheme, ordinary Iraqis lived in poverty and in dire want of basic medical supplies, and it is estimated by UNICEF that up to 500,000 Iraqi children died needlessly as a result. The usual anti-war crowd protested, unsurprisingly, in order to have the sanctions lifted. What sort of pseudo-humanitarianism is this? Surely the lifting of sanctions can only be enabled by the removal of the regime that necessitates them? But when confronted with this possibility, the same people fell silent, apparently preferring the status quo.. ('sure, Iraqi lives are important, but not THAT important')."

You are wasting a lot of words and time showing people who actually spent considerable time studying this war that you don't have the foggiest fucking clue what you are talking about.

Lots of text is meaningless if the meat of the argument is shit.
 
Because anti-war clearly doesn't work at all in your mind, you can have the abomination of Syria since the current ISIL is more Syria than it is Iraq.



Again you demonstrated his clear history, with intent of genocide and breaking UN resolutions. All that the United States asked for from the UN is to enforce these, but fuck it. Lets leave a genocidal psychopath in leadership in an extremely vital zone (perhaps the WORST leader in the middle east since ever). Because hey, he did it in the 80's!!!!

And this made taking him out our problem? Does not compute.
 
So um, where are they?

Funnily enough no, the lifting of sanctions is easily enabled by errrrr, just lifting them.

Utterly frivolous. Let's just do nothing then.

You are wasting a lot of words and time showing people who actually spent considerable time studying this war that you don't have the foggiest fucking clue what you are talking about.

Lots of text is meaningless if the meat of the argument is shit.

In other words, "my mind is already made up thank you very much and no amount of facts are going to make me think otherwise".
 
Utterly frivolous.



In other words, "my mind is already made up thank you very much and no amount of facts are going to make me think otherwise".

I would call your posts a perversion of context and facts. If you actually provided an argument that had some intellectual merit and respected historical context you might deserve more then the responses you are getting. Slapping a bunch of articles into a post and going on long winded tangents that trail off into nowhere isn't exactly my idea of intellectually stimulating.

....frivolous is actually a great word. Yeah, that about sums up your nonsense.
 
At least politically, I don't think there's one vote during her time as Senator that Hillary regrets more than that one.

Maybe for political posturing, but if she was asked during the campaign, I expect her to say Saddam was evil and had to be taken down but that there should have been a greater coalition or some such.
 
Utterly frivolous. Let's just do nothing then.

"Hey, i know that sanctions have done fuckall, BUT WE MUST DO SOMETHING"

Yes, you can maintain trade relations and keep influencing them through soft law. As the US does with a fuckton of other actors.

Are you perchance also under the illusion that just a little bit more and those sanctions would've worked on, say, Cuba?
 
"Hey, i know that sanctions have done fuckall, BUT WE MUST DO SOMETHING"

Yes, you can maintain trade relations and keep influencing them through soft law. As the US does with a fuckton of other actors.

Are you perchance also under the illusion that just a little bit more and those sanctions would've worked on, say, Cuba?

We clearly should've invaded them, too.

And a bunch of other countries that probably fit his/her incredibly loose criteria for which war is justified.
 
Iran will be the new Iraq.

their names are so similar looking after all, and i can never remember which one is which.
 
Wait. Is he talking about with the intelligence presented at the time or about what we know now? Jeb Bush is pretty smart dude. I don't see how anyone can say Iraq was worth it with the price that was paid. It was a mistake. It's okay to say that.
 
Between talking about his brother as an advisor and now affirming he'd have also done what many Americans perceive to be Dubya's biggest mistake, Jeb is certainly running an interesting campaign.
 
Between talking about his brother as an advisor and now affirming he'd have also done what many Americans perceive to be Dubya's biggest mistake, Jeb is certainly running an interesting campaign.
This all feels very Rovian - make your opponents greatest strengths appear a weakness (Hillary's global charity and SoS tenure) and act shamelessly defiant enough about your weaknesses so they stop seeming like liabilities.

Listening to some of the beltway press you'd think Bill Clinton was a bigger anchor in this election that George W. Bush.
 
Wait. Is he talking about with the intelligence presented at the time or about what we know now? Jeb Bush is pretty smart dude. I don't see how anyone can say Iraq was worth it with the price that was paid. It was a mistake. It's okay to say that.
He's very clearly talking about the intelligence presented at the time and admitting that in hind sight it was faulty. People are being purposefully dense because it's election season.
 
He's very clearly talking about the intelligence presented at the time and admitting that in hind sight it was faulty. People are being purposefully dense because it's election season.

No one in that article does he say that the intelligence was faulty. And regardless, where did that intelligence come from?
 
He's very clearly talking about the intelligence presented at the time and admitting that in hind sight it was faulty. People are being purposefully dense because it's election season.

That's bullshit anyway. It had nothing to do with intelligence as there were vendettas and money involved.

That intelligence was going to say whatever they wanted it to.
 
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