Wishmaster92
Member
Here are some hi-res concept art shots if they haven't been posted before.
Koji Igarashi Kickstarts Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night (2.5D, backdash, 2018)
- Thread starter PranooY
- Start date
Die Squirrel Die
Member
I think the problem here is that you are applying an individual perspective to a collective situation. As an individual you are not paying more for cheat codes. Sure you can up your pledge if a stretch goal you are really interested in comes up but you are not obligated to. You could have been the first person to pledge $60 and it doesn't matter how much this whole KS campaign raises or how many stretch goals and backer achievements unlock you'll still get what you pledged for (more even as the overall funding has allowed new features to be added).
Also why should every penny be accounted for by the developers? Why should they be expected to funnel every penny into the final game? You said yourself that they should have planned with foresight. What if they have and the initial goal is exactly what they needed to make the game they want to make? Why should they be expected to keep tacking on features that maybe aren't a part of their original vision because more people are interested in what they pitched to begin with than they initially expected.
If you don't like what they have pitched so far, don't back it, take responsibility for yourself rather than blaming the developer because their KS was more successful than they needed it to be. At this point the game's hit its funding goal, you can just wait until they release it for real.
J
Jotamide
Unconfirmed Member
We will, there's a whole month left.
loganclaws
Plane Escape Torment
The entire argument is about how this kickstarter is not providing any details or clear explanations on the stretch goals. Your first post above is stating the a kickstarter is very simple, the kickstartee will ask for money like this:
I am saying that it's not as simple as that and that the decision of whether someone will want to give money or not is based on several factors that should be detailed/explained in the kickstarter pitch. I hope this clarified my point for you. Yes we all know what a kickstarter's function is.
Yes but it won't matter that they aren't yet fully explained. It'll be fine. You don't need to have a Fight for Nothing about it over here. Are you worried that it won't be fine?
Kojirospath
Member
You made your point. What further do you need to get out of this?
Look if you are worried about a Kickstarter then don't fund it! However, all I see is that a new game like Mega Man from the main driving force behind Mega Man is going to be released on consoles this year, and that new games like Banjo-Kazooie and Castlevania from the main driving forces behind those games are going to be released on consoles in the future. All of which are going to have a decent freakin' budget! In addition, there are a number of PC games that are also spiritual successors that are also going to be released because of Kickstarter. What I am seeing is the return of the mid-budget game to consoles all because of gamers passionate about a creator's work in a certain genre wanting a new game in that genre from that creator and then putting their money where their passion is. Because of this, we are getting a new 2D Platformer-Shooter from the former head of the Mega Man franchise, a new 3D Platformer from the Banjo-Kazooie staff, and a new Metroidvania from one of the creators of that genre and all of this are on modern consoles. We are getting games that aren't buggy AAA messes or cheapass mobile games laced with microtransactions. This can only be a good thing!
cj_iwakura
Member
I don't know if Duckroll was being facetious or not, but I agree with him on one thing; this feels like a very well-orchestrated business move, especially since they have a marketing team involved.
As long as the final product turns out great, I don't mind, but still.
As long as the final product turns out great, I don't mind, but still.
I think it's worth noting that the backer update they sent out earlier today said,
I'm willing to wait patiently for the details and in terms of funding it's probably more important that they go into more detail on upcoming stretch goals first to incentivize people to pledge/ raise pledges. So I'm really hoping in the next few days they get things sorted.
I'm willing to wait patiently for the details and in terms of funding it's probably more important that they go into more detail on upcoming stretch goals first to incentivize people to pledge/ raise pledges. So I'm really hoping in the next few days they get things sorted.
loganclaws
Plane Escape Torment
If I was a backer (which I am not for this project), then I am concerned about the overall quality for this project. If I pay the mimimum pledge then I still expect a quality product. The developers should go through the trouble of providing as much detail as possible to inform me as a potential backer of how they will make a quality game, especially if they want me to up my pledge with stretch goals since that is the sole reason why a backer will logically up their pledge (other reasons like physical goods exist, I know, but mostly it's to improve the end product).
I already addressed your question of why they should have every penny accounted for in another post of mine. Developers need to be held accountable for the money they're being given because backers are growing the game's budget not the developers wallet. They don't have to tack on extra features but I'm sure no backer is giving them money, whether the initial funding goal is achieved or not, just so that they can pocket it. The extra money should go to improving the quality of the game, whether through iteration, adding features, etc...
Here are some hi-res concept art shots if they haven't been posted before.
Links are broken
Wishmaster Nightwish reference? Went to go see them at the Warfield in SF a few weeks back!
It's literally one guy shitting the thread.
I just put him on the ignore, since he keeps talking about these problems and I don't want to read about them here.
Alex_Mexico
Member
If so, what's the sin in that? Are you complaining this KS was too well organized? I'm confused.
More_Badass
Member
Very true. I've followed a lot of campaigns and chatted with devs before and after, and it's a lot of work. Making sure the game is presentable, filming and editing videos, spreading the word, planning out tier prices and stretch goals and rewards and updates, designing a nice campaign page with GIFs and images and a good amount of info, getting feedback and implementing that feedback. And then once the KS goes up, answering comments and questions, responding to emails, sending out emails, interviews, etc.
loganclaws
Plane Escape Torment
My concern is the health of the entire Kickstarter movement and the potential growth of the already present stigma attached to it?
Just like almost every other kickstarter game I've backed.
Many of them ended being great games.
loganclaws
Plane Escape Torment
Read back a little, people were arguing with me that giving money to a KS is more like a donation. If this is a smart business move, doesn't that make us all investors then?
In any case I really hope this game succeeds and they don't fuck it up. I'll buy two copies when it is released.
Dude, no offense, but really look at what you're saying. It's kind of a worthless concern that effects nothing of note in even the related subject matter. People will just fund what they want and things will just go on the way they've been going. All it's going to do is get bigger. Look at how successful this one game has been compared to previous record holders.
Donators receive a product or good faith. Investors receive a percentage of profits.
Kojirospath
Member
Start a thread on it if you're so serious about it but stop shitting up this one. You're making it about you and your argument. This is a thread about Bloodstained not your commentary on kickstarter.
Unknown Soldier
Member
At least as far as games are concerned, we're long past the phase where KS was used by starving indie devs to get a few bucks to make a game while living on ramen.
But in the case of this KS, they already explained that they have funding lined up but the money will only arrive if they can provide concrete evidence that somebody wants to buy the finished product. So they went to KS and said, give us money and we'll use it as proof of demand. Then the financing will be released and we can make the game. They've been completely transparent about this so I don't see any problems with it.
loganclaws
Plane Escape Torment
You're right. I've already spent way too much time in this thread replying to people. Enjoy.
More_Badass
Member
Not this argument again
Backing KS isn't an investment. Just because it's a smart business move, to gauge interest and gain funds, doesn't mean backers are investors.
That's not an argument, that's making you aware of a fact.
NoPiece
Member
If you are really concerned about Kickstarter, there are other projects you should spend your time on.
loganclaws
Plane Escape Torment
I think you should be banned for replies like these. The discussion I am having is directly related to this KS and you are not contributing anything meaningful.
The huge issue is scope creep, where they promise one more level, one more feature, whatever, and all of a sudden there's more work but not necessarily enough money to bring on more people, everything gets delayed and the money starts to run out. That's where Kickstarters fail.
I'm not saying porting a game is easy, but you get a quantifiable goal with a limited amount of labour that needs to go into it, and even if you blow the deadline on the port, you're still getting the main product out the door and generating revenue. If the port hits serious problems that sucks, but at least it won't sink the whole project like adding superfluous stuff to the game that just endlessly drains resources.
Furthermore maybe I'm missing something on the Vita here but what I read on their page is Nintendo, which I take to mean Wii U, and if they can figure out UE4 on the system it wouldn't be necessarily a whole new game, just working UE4 (which was built to be scalable) to work on Wii U. Handhelds would need their own game though, I agree there.
loganclaws
Plane Escape Torment
I wasn't being serious with that comment. I'm aware that we are not investors. Anyway, I'll let you guys enjoy this kickstarter!
Building the same game for Wii U as an additional platform -- in addition to the effort of porting UE4 to a platform not officially supported, which I consider a ridiculous undertaking if your goal is just to make a game -- would in fact be even worse than an outsourced port. It would directly limit what they can achieve in the game.
I think that is unrealistic. You are donating, and when you donate to other projects they only give out budget in broad strokes. Even large donors and non profits only give out annual reports like this.
Requiring more is sort of the 'entitled gamer' cliche that goes around. Just because it's your money doesn't mean they need to have a in-depth public audit. A studio isn't a registered charity and your relationship to the studio/game maker is as a donor not a business partner. If you feel the terms are shaky, don't donate but it's unreasonable to ask them to 'have every penny accounted for'; business investors wouldn't require that. They want the broad strokes and details on whats going on.
Disclosure also hurts studios that do kick starters; because gamers are young and have no idea what things cost or how the business end works. Stuff like paying an employee a 60k salary means you're probably paying 100k/year in total. 60k directly and 40k in non pay costs like office space, health insurance, employer paid taxes and fees, etc...
DoubleFine was extremely transparent and they got crucified for not conforming to young gamers idea of how the gaming biz works. If they're smart they disclose much less and give people only broad marketing filter snapshots of how development is going.
OK, you officially have no idea what you're talking about - thanks for making that clear to everyone.
As Robert @ Zeboyd pointed out, that covers not just salaries, but the overhead that comes with employing someone: benefits, rent, equipment, legal, taxes, etc. The cost of employing is often 50% or more of their actual salaries.
Many devs have 15-20k/man-month burn rates. Those are more like AAA studios, but $10k/man-month is really not very much.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
At least it'll help avoid the faceplant a team working with a certain other well-loved, well-respected Japanese auteur jettisoned from the company he helped to greatness dabbling in a KS!
Ugh, don't remind me.
A lot of people are saying this which I find confusing. These guys are clearly leading development with PS4 and Xbone specs in mind so I don't see why getting a whole pile of money and working out a Wii U port means they're suddenly throwing that out to make the Wii U port easier, rather than porting down.
As for UE4 I haven't heard from anyone who's tried to get it working on Wii U but the official line is it will work if someone wants to make it happen so who knows.
NipplesAndToes23
Member
Man, this thread got dumb.
Come on, this is times to be in awe and speculation.
Come on, this is times to be in awe and speculation.
Kojirospath
Member
I don't think I'm out of line here but your free to think whatever you want. But the whole topic has deviated towards you. Who's fault is that? I'm going to stop replying to you know because I'm part of the problem in doing so. Enjoy your life.
Die Squirrel Die
Member
Why shouldn't it go into the developers pocket? I think the fact that people are referring to backing a KS as donating betrays the root of the misunderstanding. You aren't donating money, you are pledging at a certain tier for the items contained within that tier. The amount raised isn't reflective of how much people want spent on the game, it's reflective of how many people think the pitch presented is worth taking a punt on. I think the whole stretch goal thing has skewed people's perspective of that.
Lee Chaolan
Member
Hoping online co-op becomes a stretch goal (and reached) before all is said and done.
Stone Ocean
Member
Because they will waste time and budget making the engine run on another platform that could otherwise be spent polishing the base game.
UE4 means they make one game and it runs on all systems currently announced. Wii U means they have to go out of their way to make UE4 run on the console, optimize the game and all that jazz. It's not cheap.
loganclaws
Plane Escape Torment
You realize you are on a gaming discussion forum on the internet right?
Read my second reply following that post, I clarified myself. I simply thought he meant salaries and then understood that he meant total expenditure per employee.
I think gamers think these assumptions are true:
- Everyone makes min-wage
- Employees only cost their wage
- There is no lost time to manage groups of people
- Every person is working at 100% efficiency for 80h a week
- Communication between teams is perfect and no rework ever happens
- Every business works at cost and doesn't need any profit to survive
- The most important thing is that the gamers are happy, we can all live on that
- Working 80h a week for 2 years is healthy and anyone who does less is lazy
Comments like 'lazy devs' drive me crazy at how stupid that sentiment is. Game dev's generally take a 20% pay cut to be in gaming and work insane hours and churn out a lot more than their counterparts in non-game dev technology.
I've been in projects that chew through a million in a year and output smaller scope product than a game. Gamers expect 1.5m to give them all 6 expansion of WoW.
loganclaws
Plane Escape Torment
Now we are really going off topic and talking broad strokes. What is a KS? A miserable little pile .... Just kidding. The whole point of a KS is that someone wants to make something but they don't have the money for it, people give money to make that something not to fatten that person's wallet.
In our campaign, we were actually criticized for paying ourselves with our crowdfunding money. Even after people figured out that we were making less than $15 an hour.
I'm not sure what they think the money is for if not paying people - buying pixels?
No, we never ran out of money, and still haven't.
Everyone is struggling, however, because we made the budget on a fixed rate and schedule, which means if there were delays people didn't get paid. And we've had a lot of delays, many of which weren't under our control.
Xaero Gravity
NEXT LEVEL lame™
So much for letting people enjoy. 