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[Melon Husk]

Varoufakis live on Bloomberg. Will resign immediately in case of Yes vote. I can't be bothered with this guy anymore.

tl;dw Otto von Kraut says "I will cut! I will cut! I will cut!". Greece says, "Please no more cuts. We've cut a quarter of our GDP"; Varoufakis: "I'll rather cut my arm off."

 

[nature boy]

Tourism bookings are nosediving


Great idea tanking the economy you're trying to recover with a pointless referendum.

 

[Theonik]

Varoufakis live on Bloomberg. Will resign immediately in case of Yes vote. I can't be bothered with this guy anymore.

I don't know what people were expecting.

Tourism bookings are nosediving
Great idea tanking the economy you're trying to recover with a pointless referendum.

The economy has been dead since 2014 tbh. And both parties are responsible for the current impasse.

 

[norinrad]

Varoufakis live on Bloomberg. Will resign immediately in case of Yes vote. I can't be bothered with this anymore.

If this was happening somewhere else in the world, the idiots at the IOC would be calling for arrests and accusing those involved for crimes against humanity. Meanwhile Greeks are offing themselves left and right, medical services are not functioning etc. The whole country is exploding and those corrupt fools are quiet as if nothing is going on.

 

[PdotMichael]

Well, the last 6 month were just a waste of time and money for all people involved. Not sure what Tsipras thought what would happen after all the Eurozone nations made it clear that they don't support his policy after his Europe tour.

 

[Frankfurter]

I don't know what people were expecting.


The economy has been dead since 2014 tbh. And both parties are responsible for the current impasse.

It's much worse now.

 

[East Lake]

Varoufakis live on Bloomberg. Will resign immediately in case of Yes vote. I can't be bothered with this guy anymore.

tl;dw Otto von Kraut says "I will cut! I will cut! I will cut!". Greece says, "Please no more cuts. We've cut a quarter of our GDP"; Varoufakis: "I'll rather cut my arm off."

I think you kinda missed his point. They can have any goon sign a deal with the troika, he doesn't need to be there unless the Greeks want to play hardball.

 

[Theonik]

It's much worse now.

After it was completely wrecked by the bailout programs it was just on life support. What you see now is the real results.

 

[Melon Husk]

I wasn't making any point. I'm not a fan of their hardball tactics.

I think this will go down on whether the Greeks want to kick the current government out or let them play their game. No way can the people as a whole make an informed decision on the subject. That's why, supposedly, you elect smart people to figure the best option for you.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Tourism bookings are nosediving

Great idea tanking the economy you're trying to recover with a pointless referendum.

A work colleague of mine has a villa in Greece that he lets out to mates for holidays. I've got to be honest, I wouldn't really want to go with all this going on. Especially the whole ATMs only dispense €60 a day thing. I'm one of those people who doesn't change money beforehand, but just pitches up and takes out a few hundred from a local ATM on the first day of the holiday. I don't want to be stuck in Greece with no money!

Now, if Greece went back to the Drachma, my next hol would be there, no question.

 

[East Lake]

I wasn't making any point.

I think this will go down on whether the Greeks want to kick the current government out or let them play their game. No way can the people as a whole make an informed decision on the subject. That's why, supposedly, you elect smart people to figure the best option for you.

You don't really need to know intricate economic details like Varoufakis does. It's clear that yes sucks down whatever the creditors want and no rejects it. It's not finance smarts that's going to crack austerity ideology.

 

[Aon]

A work colleague of mine has a villa in Greece that he lets out to mates for holidays. I've got to be honest, I wouldn't really want to go with all this going on. Especially the whole ATMs only dispense €60 a day thing. I'm one of those people who doesn't change money beforehand, but just pitches up and takes out a few hundred from a local ATM on the first day of the holiday. I don't want to be stuck in Greece with no money!

Now, if Greece went back to the Drachma, my next hol would be there, no question.

Doesn't apply to people withdrawing from foreign banks.

 

[Hammer24]

Varoufakis interview with Australian radio this morning.

If I understand him right, he says Greece doesn´t have any printing capabilities for bills anymore, which would answer what we discussed yesterday.

 

[oti]

A work colleague of mine has a villa in Greece that he lets out to mates for holidays. I've got to be honest, I wouldn't really want to go with all this going on. Especially the whole ATMs only dispense €60 a day thing. I'm one of those people who doesn't change money beforehand, but just pitches up and takes out a few hundred from a local ATM on the first day of the holiday. I don't want to be stuck in Greece with no money!

Now, if Greece went back to the Drachma, my next hol would be there, no question.

You're a foreigner.
You can get ALL OF THE MONEY.

 

[Joni]

Doesn't apply to people withdrawing from foreign banks.

With the exception they still have to have enough physical money at their disposal.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

ERC is a center left party. Also, as FunkyP said orange is Ciudadanos, ERC has to be yellow tied with blue Convergencia.

Derp, can't read colour schemes. I did think it was odd a Catalan-only party was steaming ahead like that.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Doesn't apply to people withdrawing from foreign banks.

You're a foreigner.
You can get ALL OF THE MONEY.

So could Greeks get around the withdrawal limits by getting a foreigner to withdraw money for them?

 

[Joni]

So could Greeks get around the withdrawal limits by getting a foreigner to withdraw money for them?

The foreigner would be withdrawing from his own account. The limit is to limit the money going away from the Greek banks.

 

[Frankfurter]

After it was completely wrecked by the bailout programs it was just on life support. What you see now is the real results.

That's not the point. All that Tsipras did was making things even worse.

 

[PdotMichael]

So could Greeks get around the withdrawal limits by getting a foreigner to withdraw money for them?

Why should Greece want to limit the import of foreign capital?

 

[Melon Husk]

You don't really need to know intricate economic details like Varoufakis does. It's clear that yes sucks down whatever the creditors want and no rejects it.

Do the people inside Greece genuinely have this point of view too? I honestly don't know what the majority of them think. Sure, if they know that (what you said) then they're in a better position but a lot of them don't like Tsipras and co.

It's not finance smarts that's going to crack austerity ideology.

Playing hardball isn't currently cracking the austerity ideology either...

 

[oti]

So what is the official song of the Greek Crisis?

My vote:
Keti Garbi - Ellada, hora tou fotos
https://youtu.be/SriKszWIH8c

Spoiler

waiting for bitch better have my money posts

 

[uuaschbaer]

So what is the official song of the Greek Crisis?

My vote:
Keti Garbi - Ellada, hora tou fotos
https://youtu.be/SriKszWIH8c

Spoiler

waiting for bitch better have my money posts

Too easy. European EU Anthem.

 

[Joni]

Giorgos Alkaios & Friends - OPA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmeCC53FKes
"The song is all about leaving the past behind and starting all over again. In a world shaken by the current economic circumstance, Alkaios believes people just need to say 'Opa' and move on."

 

[My words exactly!]

I wasn't making any point. I'm not a fan of their hardball tactics.

I think this will go down on whether the Greeks want to kick the current government out or let them play their game. No way can the people as a whole make an informed decision on the subject. That's why, supposedly, you elect smart people to figure the best option for you.

You fail to grasp that, till now, they only figured the best option for the bankers.

The fact that ''yes'' is supported by the whole spectrum of politicians (regardless of parties) that has been involved in a scandal for the past 10 years, should tell people all they need to know.Why should anyone want to align with those people?

Varoufakis: Dijsselbloem wanted to impose capital controls 5 months ago
http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/20...d-with-capital-controls-by-european-official/
http://www.topontiki.gr/article/135...ym-ithele-capital-controls-prin-5-mines-video

 

[oti]

I for my part don't believe anything will change with a Yes vote. I can see why some people would prefer that but Greece needs a reset.

 

[Theonik]

That's not the point. All that Tsipras did was making things even worse.

I don't really see that point. At the point he picked up the country both he and his creditors are equally to blame for this outcome.

He did a lot of stupid shit in the meantime certainly. He should have at least have pretended to trying to tackle Greece's unsolvable tax problems. These threads would be much more readable if he had, and so would the talks. (Unfortunately Greek systemic corruption needs systematic efforts to be properly dealt with but no-one has ever quite known how best to proceed. It's kind of like Hydra, cut one head and 2 appear, at the same time since the crisis, governments haven't had the necessary resources and government stability to be able to sustain such a program, not that it was ever part of the bailout programs anyway which is a good thing! I guess, lack of interest in a political climate where the major political forces are all part of the problem with no viable alternative is another.)

 

[Melon Husk]

Why should anyone want to align with those people?

People are not always rational. Maybe I'm applying too much psychology into this vote. I'm not bluntly calling them stupid but the realistic best option and the popular opinion don't always meet. This whole show [but they invented democracy...!] is the result of that [don't let them in just yet].

 

[My words exactly!]

I for my part don't believe anything will change with a Yes vote. I can see why some people would prefer that but Greece needs a reset.

sure it will. EU will now have an excuse for whatever measures they can come up with ''STFU greece, you know you want it ragias''... Greek people will be divided in two again. People who vote No will blaim yes men and people who voted yes will complain.

People with deposits (who are the most likely ones to vote for yes) will complain but they will only have themselves to blame when a Cyprus-style trim occurs. Ditto for gourmant pensioners.

Αnd ere comes the best part: Stournaras (yes that one from the 10 Billion € Αgricultural Bank scandal, the Energa - Hellas Power scandal and the Siemens debacle) will be appointed temporary PM... WTF

 

[Hammer24]

I think we all agree, Greece needs a third program, one way or the other they can´t get out of this mess without help.
I´ll try to analyze this from the German perspective:
- the financing for a third program has to come from the ESM. As planned for a long time, EFSF ran out on the 30th June, and is now integrated into the ESM.
- While the ESM has way more leeway how its programs are structured, the hurdles to get such a program are much higher than with the EFSF. To negotiate an EFSF program, Merkel/Schäuble needed a mandate from the German parlament. They got it with 29 no votes from their own party, but about 100 members of their own party gave a dissenting statement along the lines of "this will be the last time I say yes".
- The hurdles to get an ESM program are:
--- the ESM may only offer a program to prevent severe market turmoil
---> when you see how cool the markets reacted this last week, there will be many German politicians arguing that this precondition has not been met
--- Merkel/Schäuble need a new mandate from German parlament to be able to start negotiations
---> this will probably not be that much of a problem (depending on how the vote in Greece goes this Sunday)
--- after successful negotiations, Merkel/Schäuble need to present the result of the negotiations again to the German parlament, and have a vote on it

The current speculation goes like this:
a) Greece votes "Yes"
- that would mean an immediate end for Tsipras/Varoufakis
- president of Greek National Bank would become prime minister of a government of national unity, immediately starting the process to renew negotiations under ESM rules, and preparing new elections for later in the year
- ECB would keep on giving ELA credits to keep Greece afloat until negotiations are settled
b) Greece votes "No"
- now it gets messy: Merkel would ask her party to have a "test vote" on giving her a negotiating mandate. The result in this case is far from sure. But as a politician I expect her not to take a weak mandate. In this case she would probably simply wait until Greece runs fully out of money and is thus forces into a new currency, then giving Humanitarian Aid.
- if she gets a strong mandate for negotiations, she would immediately return to negotiations. But: she would have way less leeway for compromise.
The Greek delegation would see itself strengthened in its position and walk way back on its concessions. The German delegation would know that their own party sees the Greek delegation as hostile and so would be less willing to compromise. So in the end the positions would be way further apart than ever before.

 

[Melon Husk]

They vote yes, their economy shrinks even further, they have no growth, out comes more studies showing austerity measures do no good for growth, they ask "What now ass-clowns?" and ask for more money.

How can you be so sure that the pro-austerity German mindset will last forever? Do you think EU will let Greece sickly curl up and wither in the corner for the next 15 years when the data says austerity does not work.

There is clear indication that all sides want Greece to stay in the union. Come on, give the Germans a little credit too, they are not stupid, just their current politicians are.

 

[norinrad]

As a politician? Hammer24 i didn't know your profession was promising to build bridges while there are no rivers.

Anyway i like your assessment of the situation, though i think Europe want Tsipras/Varoufakis gone.

 

[Hammer24]

How can you be so sure that the pro-austerity German mindset will last forever? Do you think EU will let Greece sickly curl up and wither in the corner for the next 15 years when the data says austerity does not work.

Nothing lasts forever. And I do in no way say austerity is the only way to go forward.

But its also a fact that right now of the Eurozone countries 18 agree that austerity is right, and only Greece dissents.
The implications of that are easy:
- Greece cannot force the rest to change their stance
- Greece itself cannot be forced to change their stance
Neither would adhere to any democratic standards.

So in the end Greece has to choose to either accept austerity measures like the others did and stay in the Eurozone, or reject austerity measures and leave the Eurozone.
As long as Greece needs external money to stay afloat, there is no middle ground possible.

Come on, give the Germans a little credit too, they are not stupid, just their current politicians are.

Sorry, I don´t share your optimism.
If this Sunday we´d hold a referendum if Germany should keep on helping Greece yes/no... I´m sorry.

(I wanted to link an online vote from Germans left leaning Spiegel here, yesterday about 70000 participants voted on the question "Should Germany keep on negotiating with Greece?". About two thirds voted "no". )

 

[PdotMichael]

They vote yes, their economy shrinks even further, they have no growth, out comes more studies showing austerity measures do no good for growth, they ask "What now ass-clowns?" and ask for more money.

How can you be so sure that the pro-austerity German mindset will last forever? Do you think EU will let Greece sickly curl up and wither in the corner for the next 15 years when the data says austerity does not work.

There is clear indication that all sides want Greece to stay in the union. Come on, give the Germans a little credit too, they are not stupid, just their current politicians are.

Makes you wonder why they didn't call it a day six months ago if everything is better than austerity.

 

[Machspeed007]

austerity does not work.

People often confuse rational spending with austerity.

 

[Coriolanus]

If this was happening somewhere else in the world, the idiots at the IOC would be calling for arrests and accusing those involved for crimes against humanity. Meanwhile Greeks are offing themselves left and right, medical services are not functioning etc. The whole country is exploding and those corrupt fools are quiet as if nothing is going on.

What does the IOC have to do with anything right now?

Tourism bookings are nosediving

Great idea tanking the economy you're trying to recover with a pointless referendum.

Grats on giving such a nice example on the definition of "penny wise, pound stupid".

How can you be so sure that the pro-austerity German mindset will last forever? Do you think EU will let Greece sickly curl up and wither in the corner for the next 15 years when the data says austerity does not work.

There is clear indication that all sides want Greece to stay in the union. Come on, give the Germans a little credit too, they are not stupid, just their current politicians are.

EU is willing to do that right now, when the data they have says that more austerity would do fuckall. There comes a time when one has to drop any pretense of good faith and see things for what they are, mate.

Germans are among the *many* countries that had politicians beneffiting from the "lazy greeks" narrative, so, as some german posters have noted, he who runs on changing the tune on Greece is most likely committing political suicide.

Makes you wonder why they didn't call it a day six months ago if everything is better than austerity.

Because the previous administration, who was still in power 6 monthsa go, also was a bunch of corrupt cunts?
I mean, the greek people kinda did exactly that by voting syriza in power.

 

[Theonik]

Makes you wonder why they didn't call it a day six months ago if everything is better than austerity.

People didn't vote for that. They don't want failed austerity politics but they like staying in the Euro. It's becoming increasingly apparent how contradictory this stance is.

 

[norinrad]

What does the IOC have to do with anything right now?

I would like to see them bring members of the past Greek governments to trial for crimes against humanity. Add Tsipras/Varoufakis to that list too. Their bullshit brought Greece where it is today.

 

[Hammer24]

...promising to build bridges while there are no rivers.

Isn´t that exactly what politicians do? ;-)

Anyway i like your assessment of the situation, though i think Europe want Tsipras/Varoufakis gone.

At least I can see barely anyone wanting to keep on negotiating with them.

Germans are among the *many* countries that had politicians beneffiting from the "lazy greeks" narrative, so, as some german posters have noted, he who runs on changing the tune on Greece is most likely committing political suicide.

Exactly. And does anyone here see Merkel commit political suicide? Me neither.

 

[PdotMichael]

People didn't vote for that. They don't want failed austerity politics but they like staying in the Euro. It's becoming increasingly apparent how contradictory this stance is.

So?

It was obvious that they wouldn't find together in the past months. There was enough time for a referendum about the future of Greece and the EU, even a referendum that could meet international standards.

 

[Hammer24]

Ha, thanks Google cache search, found the Spiegel vote from yesterday:

http://www.spiegel.de/forum/votes/vote-11866.html

Translation:

New negotiations with Greece?
Greece is bankrupt and the help program of the Eurozone members has ended. Should the creditors start negotiating about a new compromise?

YES, European unity is too important, you can´t simply let a country fail.
23582 votes, ~35%
NO, the Greek had enough chances and didn´t use them. Now they have to live with the consequences.
44232 votes, ~65%

Again, this is on a pretty left leaning newspaper.

 

[Coriolanus]

I would like to see them bring members of the past Greek governments to trial for crimes against humanity. Add Tsipras/Varoufakis to that list too. Their bullshit brought Greece where it is today.

What does the International Olympic Commitee have to do with that?

 

[Theonik]

So?

It was obvious that they wouldn't find together in the past months. There was enough time for a referendum about the future of Greece and the EU, even a referendum that could meet international standards.

So they attempted to find a compromise within the monetary union as was the nation's wishes but were swatted down?

 

[RobotNinjaHornets]

Pompous Arse Taking Tough Stance On Greece

Lol

 

[Theonik]

Pompous Arse Taking Tough Stance On Greece

Lol

I'm reminded of certain people.

 

[Melon Husk]

So little Giorgios has been accepted in a gang. He's the smallest of the gang's members, but the rest have grown attached to him. However, he recently fucked up and broke a rule.

He has two options: accept a beating, or run away from the gang of 18. If he accepts the beating, he will not ask for forgiveness, but the gang takes care of their own

Spoiler

right?

EU is willing to do that right now, when the data they have says that more austerity would do fuckall. There comes a time when one has to drop any pretense of good faith and see things for what they are, mate.

Germans are among the *many* countries that had politicians beneffiting from the "lazy greeks" narrative, so, as some german posters have noted, he who runs on changing the tune on Greece is most likely committing political suicide.

There is no political will.
Hence, stupid politicians. As change of tune must come from the rest of the member countries, Greece has to lie in a corner face down until someone offers a hand. How this turns out will be affected also by how deep in the pockets of the banks different countries' politicians are. And Merkel is out soon,

Spoiler

right?

Spoiler

This is what happens when you tie yourself in a union: you give up your future into the hands of someone else.

Because the previous administration, who was still in power 6 monthsa go, also was a bunch of corrupt cunts?
I mean, the greek people kinda did exactly that by voting syriza in power.

They did what they had to do, just like Germany's politicians are doing now. Unfortunately Germany is molding them like Krupp steel.

 

[PdotMichael]

So they attempted to find a compromise within the monetary union as was the nation's wishes but were swatted down?

It was indeed a waste if time and money. One side wants a further austerity policy and the other side couldn't stop saying how shit austerity is. There wad no middle ground for both sides.

 

[Theonik]

It was indeed a waste if time and money. One side wants a further austerity policy and the other side couldn't stop saying how shit austerity is. There wad no middle ground for both sides.

Surely you understand that both sides are equally to blame for this though. Shifting the balance to one side or the other depends on your personal position in this matter.

 

[Coriolanus]

Was Samaras really dense enough to try and compare Greece to Argentina negatively?

 

[PdotMichael]

Surely you understand that both sides are equally to blame for this though. Shifting the balance to one side or the other depends on your personal position in this matter.

Right now I didn't blame anyone. Outside that the referendum should have happen earlier this year.