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[Hammer24]

Surely you understand that both sides are equally to blame for this though. Shifting the balance to one side or the other depends on your personal position in this matter.

That depends. One could argue, that by now most of Europe agrees that Tsipras/Varoufakis never really negotiated. They never came up with any proposals that were in any way firm and reliable, always staying in vague terms and rejections.
So maybe, just maybe, they really planned right from the start to force Greece out of the Euro against the express will of the Greek population?

 

[Theonik]

Right now I didn't blame anyone. Outside that the referendum should have happen earlier this year.

I've just been puzzled at the collection of your posts in these threads.

That depends. One could argue, that by now most of Europe agrees that Tsipras/Varoufakis never really negotiated. They never came up with any proposals that were in any way firm and reliable, always staying in vague terms and rejections.
So maybe, just maybe, they really planned right from the start to force Greece out of the Euro against the express will of the Greek population?

That is certainly a possibility. You could also say that was the plan from the other side as well.
The present situation is unfortunate.

 

[Coriolanus]

That depends. One could argue, that by now most of Europe agrees that Tsipras/Varoufakis never really negotiated. They never came up with any proposals that were in any way firm and reliable, always staying in vague terms and rejections.
So maybe, just maybe, they really planned right from the start to force Greece out of the Euro against the express will of the Greek population?

Sure, but one could also easily argue that, by now, the goal of the austerity measures was never to make them a quick path to recovery for Greece, so maybe, just maybe, the creditors harbored malicious intents?

 

[PdotMichael]

I've just been puzzled at the collection of your posts in these threads.


That is certainly a possibility. You could also say that was the plan from the other side as well.
The present situation is unfortunate.

And an early referendum could have forced both sides to move to one side.

Whatever happens to Greece after the weekend will be worse than what could have been.

 

[oti]

Ha, thanks Google cache search, found the Spiegel vote from yesterday:

http://www.spiegel.de/forum/votes/vote-11866.html

Translation:

New negotiations with Greece?
Greece is bankrupt and the help program of the Eurozone members has ended. Should the creditors start negotiating about a new compromise?

YES, European unity is too important, you can´t simply let a country fail.
23582 votes, ~35%
NO, the Greek had enough chances and didn´t use them. Now they have to live with the consequences.
44232 votes, ~65%

Again, this is on a pretty left leaning newspaper.

At this point most people must be annoyed by the "Zick-Zack-Kurs". What I do find disturbing though is how many/some/most (?) Germans really have that " fix your economy, no matter what" mentality. I've experienced it first hand in school and university.

 

[ClosingADoor]

At this point most people must be annoyed by the "Zick-Zack-Kurs". What I do find disturbing though is how many/some/most (?) Germans really have that " fix your economy, no matter what" mentality. I've experienced it first hand in school and university.

Fixing an economy is pretty important. Not fixing it just pushes the trouble to future generations.

 

[Ether_Snake]

ERC is a center left party. Also, as FunkyP said orange is Ciudadanos, ERC has to be yellow tied with blue Convergencia.

The graph is from Wikipedia
, google spanish elections 2015.

 

[Theonik]

At this point most people must be annoyed by the "Zick-Zack-Kurs". What I do find disturbing though is how many/some/most (?) Germans really have that " fix your economy, no matter what" mentality. I've experienced it first hand in school and university.

Yeah my current contract here ends in 3 weeks and I never intend to step foot on this shithole ever again if I can help it.

Edit:

Fixing an economy is pretty important. Not fixing it just pushes the trouble to future generations.

The problem is how the question is understood. The importance of unfucking the economy is universally understood.

 

[Coriolanus]

Whatever happens to Greece after the weekend will be worse than what could have been.

You're bordering on nirvana fallacy now.

 

[PdotMichael]

You're bordering on nirvana fallacy now.

Nice post, bro.

Or do you claim the referendum this weekend is a best case scenario for Greece right now?

 

[Theonik]

Nice post, bro.

Or do you claim the referendum this weekend is a best case scenario for Greece right now?

Nobody said it was the best case scenario. Your suggestion could have been less than ideal as well. The problem is the best case scenarios lie beyond the wall so to speak.

 

[My words exactly!]

Was Samaras really dense enough to try and compare Greece to Argentina negatively?

I don't think dense is the right word or intent in this case

 

[Coriolanus]

Nice post, bro.

Or do you claim the referendum this weekend is a best case scenario for Greece right now?

I claim that there is no way to know if what happened before could produce a better result, especially since there's no reason to believe that the creditors would have given up on measures guaranteed to fail, thus, claiming that what could've been better would've been necessarily better is simply false.

Do you object?

 

[Aureon]

Surely you understand that both sides are equally to blame for this though. Shifting the balance to one side or the other depends on your personal position in this matter.

Austerity has been throughly debunked as a viable economic theory for recovery during a recession.

If you still believe it, you're no better than a climate change denier.

 

[Hammer24]

You could also say that was the plan from the other side as well.

The other side at least presented certain terms. I´m not saying those were agreeable, but over time you could see them changing those terms, getting closer to the Greek position and thus a compromise.

Sure, but one could also easily argue that, by now, the goal of the austerity measures was never to make them a quick path to recovery for Greece, so maybe, just maybe, the creditors harbored malicious intents?

As those austerity measures are basically the same for all Eurozone members, then you´d need to argue that the plan is to outright kill all of Europe.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Merkel is supposedly preparing a "humanitarian package".

This is starting to remind me of Ukraine, with no shots fired.

 

[Theonik]

Austerity has been throughly debunked as a viable economic theory for recovery during a recession.

If you still believe it, you're no better than a climate change denier.

If you've been reading my posts in this thread I agree. Hell I would argue the creditors have also come to terms with that. Problem is they are in a position where they cannot afford to compromise.

Of course then you would be putting more blame on their side since they'd be intentionally disingenuous at the expense of millions of innocent people. Sadly politicians don't seem to care.

We could also be having this argument to death, people are still going to keep entrenched in their present positions. The climate change denier threads are a good example of this. Frankly I'm getting sick of this argument.

Spoiler

Well, the other difference is I have more respect for the science behind climate change than economic science, which is significantly less mature and more abstract by necessity.

The other side at least presented certain terms. I´m not saying those were agreeable, but over time you could see them changing those terms, getting closer to the Greek position and thus a compromise.

Both sides made this exact claim. There is no knowledge of what transpired behind closed doors so it's a he said she said scenario. Again down to observation bias.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Merkel is supposedly preparing a "humanitarian package".

This is starting to remind me of Ukraine, with no shots fired.

Yes, Germany will take a few Greek island next... it was the plan all along.

Come on dude.

 

[Coriolanus]

As those austerity measures are basically the same for all Eurozone members, then you´d need to argue that the plan is to outright kill all of Europe.

Or loot whatever you can.

This falls into a "ideology vs corruption" deal for the beholder.

Yes, Germany will take a few Greek island next... it was the plan all along.

Come on dude.

The idea ain't exactly new.

 

[Hammer24]

Merkel is supposedly preparing a "humanitarian package".

They formed a staff yesterday evening on ministry level.

 

[helloresolven]

Merkel is supposedly preparing a "humanitarian package".

This is starting to remind me of Ukraine, with no shots fired.

I cannot fathom how you think this is like Ukraine... which region of Greece does Germany want to annex?

 

[PdotMichael]

I claim that there is no way to know if what happened before could produce a better result, especially since there's no reason to believe that the creditors would have given up on measures guaranteed to fail, thus, claiming that what could've been better would've been necessarily better is simply false.

Do you object?

Yes wins - Greece's position is weaker + possible new election
No wins - basically no time to introduce a new currency and Greece would still money from the Eurostates to survive for the first months or even years.

 

[Hammer24]

Or loot whatever you can.

This falls into a "ideology vs corruption" deal for the beholder.

The problem with this look at things is, that both sides can and do argue it the same way. You know how many Germans think Greece is simply looting their tax money?

What I want to say is: its not helping, neither side.

 

[Coriolanus]

Yes wins - Greece's position is weaker + possible new election
No wins - basically no time to introduce a new currency and Greece would still money from the Eurostates to survive for the first months or even years.

That's very nice, but i can't help but notice that you haven't answered my question.

The problem with this look at things is, that both sides can and do argue it the same way. You know how many Germans think Greece is simply looting their tax money?

What I want to say is: its not helping, neither side.

Indeed, which is why provided the original reply to show that it remains very much a "both sides" deal. We're in agreement.

 

[Condom]

As those austerity measures are basically the same for all Eurozone members, then you´d need to argue that the plan is to outright kill all of Europe.

kill europe, buy it back for cheap

 

[ElTorro]

Merkel is supposedly preparing a "humanitarian package".

This is starting to remind me of Ukraine, with no shots fired.

Would you prefer that the EU let's Greece's hospitals run out of medical supplies? They can hardly import them on their own with no Euros to pay for them.

 

[PdotMichael]

That's very nice, but i can't help but notice that you haven't answered my question.

Like I said the late point of the referendum pushed Greece into an economical worse situation than some months ago. It's a pretty easy concept.

 

[Ether_Snake]

I'm just saying it reminds me of Ukraine, don't try to read what you feel like in it.

Referendum, pro or anti EU, oligarchs, now medical aid packages, etc.

 

[oti]

Fixing an economy is pretty important. Not fixing it just pushes the trouble to future generations.

Of course. But classmates telling me selling off islands is totes OK because payi g debt is more important than anything is just too much, don't you think?

Yeah my current contract here ends in 3 weeks and I never intend to step foot on this shithole ever again if I can help it.

Where do you work? What happened?

 

[Prime crotch]

I'm having doubts Tsirpas goal was ever to reach a deal, and instead a way to dismantle the Euro given the stonewall self-righteousness he faced against the EU.
All in all, it seems neither parts wants a compromise.

 

[ClosingADoor]

I'm just saying it reminds me of Ukraine, don't try to read what you feel like in it.

Referendum, pro or anti EU, oligarchs, now medical aid packages, etc.

What should we read into it then? Because the situations are in no way even comparable.

Of course. But classmates telling me selling off islands is totes OK because payi g debt is more important than anything is just too much, don't you think?

They should work towards structural reforms to make their economy competitive again. How, I have no clue honestly. But yes, just selling of some island (however they imagine that is going to work I have no idea) is stupid.

 

[EloKa]

I'm just saying it reminds me of Ukraine, don't try to read what you feel like in it.

Referendum, pro or anti EU, oligarchs, now medical aid packages, etc.

This is a huge exaggeration but still a good example.
Europe isn't a bad invader who's trying to take greece territory by force.

 

[uuaschbaer]

Austerity has been throughly debunked as a viable economic theory for recovery during a recession.

If you still believe it, you're no better than a climate change denier.

If you disagree with me, you're like a completely unrelated unpopular type of person. That's how that sounds. Things are not that black and white, and it should serve anyone well not to overestimate what they know.

That said, it doesn't seem to me either that austerity will save the Greek economy.

 

[travisbickle]

Germany should forgive the debt. I'm sure if they look in the history books they'll find a circumstance of debt forgiveness that turned positive.

 

[Hammer24]

Germany should forgive the debt. I'm sure if they look in the history books they'll find a circumstance of debt forgiveness that turned positive.

They would find them in their own history, without going back too much.
And I bet they would - if Greece would agree to play by the same rules as the others. Which they don´t want to.

 

[Theonik]

Where do you work? What happened?

Oh, I was working in Germany only temporarily anyway but the more I hear these kinds of opinions I don't feel particularly welcome here. It's not anything in particular. I also have come to see it as a moral issue. Oh well. Actually I am quite pleased with my colleagues they have been relatively diplomatic for the most part. I also don't see the prospects in my industry being very bright here either. German working culture is inherently incompatible with it.

 

[EloKa]

I'm sure germany would agree to cut some of the debts if Greece can prove that they are willed to change their financial structure und sustain itself in the future.

Guess this is basically the key to the problem:
Noone believes that greece will fix its problems anytime soon. No country, no investor. Even many greeks doubt it.

And noone will cut off any debts and loan money if you fear that there might come new requests for debt cuts until eternity

 

[Business]

The graph is from Wikipedia
, google spanish elections 2015.

Checked it and I'm right, sorry but what's your point?

 

[Engell]

Germany should forgive the debt. I'm sure if they look in the history books they'll find a circumstance of debt forgiveness that turned positive.

here is a funny example
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/feb/27/greece-spain-helped-germany-recover

 

[norinrad]

Germany should forgive the debt. I'm sure if they look in the history books they'll find a circumstance of debt forgiveness that turned positive.

Though i agree that a certain amount should be forgiven, i don't agree with the rest. Greece doesn't have any of their cities destroyed nor bombed to hell, no food, water nor medication, every family burying their dead or missing family members. A country that had virtually nothing but had the ability to succeed if given the opportunity. Greece wants free food, you can't compare the two countries.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Though i agree that a certain amount should be forgiven, i don't agree with the rest. Greece doesn't have any of their cities destroyed nor bombed to hell, no food, water nor medication, every family burying their dead or missing family members. A country that had virtually nothing but had the ability to succeed if given the opportunity. Greece wants free food, you can't compare the two countries.

Greece also committed the terrible crime of paying their citizens high pensions, unforgivable compared to small misdemeanors like genocide and invading neighbours.

Also, Greece don't just want free food. They also have the ability to succeed if given the opportunity. Before this recent circus started they were running a primary surplus. The only thing preventing them from being perfectly able to care for themselves were unsustainable debt levels. Make large cuts in these debts and Greece would be just fine.

 

[petran79]

Though i agree that a certain amount should be forgiven, i don't agree with the rest. Greece doesn't have any of their cities destroyed nor bombed to hell, no food, water nor medication, every family burying their dead or missing family members. A country that had virtually nothing but had the ability to succeed if given the opportunity. Greece wants free food, you can't compare the two countries.

Back then Greece was destroyed, including Civil War damage, and they still forgave Germany

 

[Theonik]

Greek polling company is saying that TV media sources have been cooking and misrepresenting their polls.

Without GPO's knowledge, and any company consent, partial findings of the company's research regarding the July 5th poll have been published by mass media. GPO claims no responsibility for this fact and will use any available legal means to protect its interests. We underline that the law allows informing the citizens by publishing poll results. This must be done in a complete and responsible way and involving the polling companies, in accordance to law. It has always been so, and it must also now be so, facing such a critical decision of the Greek people.

http://www.gpo.gr/el/component/k2/item/49-ανακοινωση-gpo.html

 

[oti]

Greek polling company is saying that TV media sources have been cooking and misrepresenting their polls.

http://www.gpo.gr/el/component/k2/item/49-ανακοινωση-gpo.html

Just burn it all to the ground.

 

[Hammer24]

Greek polling company is saying that TV media sources have been cooking and misrepresenting their polls.

http://www.gpo.gr/el/component/k2/item/49-ανακοινωση-gpo.html

Do they say in what direction the polls got "cooked"?

 

[Theonik]

Do they say in what direction the polls got "cooked"?

No they were not specific not sure about which particular leak they are talking about either.
The media in question are yes propaganda echo-chambers so my money would be on yes.

 

[sflufan]

I am having visions that the result will be a margin of 1% to 2% for the "winning" (and I use that term VERY loosely!) side and enough accusations of "irregularities" to throw the legitimacy of the result into doubt.

 

[valouris]

I am having visions that the result will be a margin of 1% to 2% for the "winning" (and I use that term VERY loosely!) side and enough accusations of "irregularities" to throw the legitimacy of the result into doubt.

And this is a very important problem. In his interview Tsipras repeatedly said that only a strong no (60-70) would help him, but not a 55%. He did not say anything on what would happen in a small majority of no.

 

[Varjet]

Since I'm a bit clueless about national economies I have to ask: What difference does it make to the creditors if they cut the debt or if Greece defaults? Seems like they'd lose the money anyway.

 

[Hammer24]

No they were not specific not sure about which particular leak they are talking about either.
The media in question are yes propaganda echo-chambers so my money would be on yes.

Hmm, from the text you quoted, it could also be read in a way like: they used the real ones, but without our consent and/or without paying us for them.