Support NeoGAF

[Ether_Snake]

Funny, now they are all waiting until the referendum is done, effectively giving Greeks s good reason to vote no since it basically affirms that negotiations will resume after the vote even if it's no (especially if it's no). If it's yes they'll just hope and wait for elections that could bring some yes-man in power, but who do they think the Greeks would vote for?

This whole thing is going to drag for the rest of the year, which just increases the chances that other events will pile up, such as another country defaulting or recessions, etc.

 

[Fxp]

I know that most of you have read this fantastic piece but it's still a fascinating:

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2010/10/greeks-bearing-bonds-201010

 

[chadskin]

Varoufakis posted a new blog entry:

Why we recommend a NO in the referendum – in 6 short bullet points
Posted on July 1, 2015 by yanisv

1. Negotiations have stalled because Greece’s creditors (a) refused to reduce our un-payable public debt and (b) insisted that it should be repaid ‘parametrically’ by the weakest members of our society, their children and their grandchildren
2. The IMF, the United States’ government, many other governments around the globe, and most independent economists believe — along with us — that the debt must be restructured.
3. The Eurogroup had previously (November 2012) conceded that the debt ought to be restructured but is refusing to commit to a debt restructure
4. Since the announcement of the referendum, official Europe has sent signals that they are ready to discuss debt restructuring. These signals show that official Europe too would vote NO on its own ‘final’ offer.
5. Greece will stay in the euro. Deposits in Greece’s banks are safe. Creditors have chosen the strategy of blackmail based on bank closures. The current impasse is due to this choice by the creditors and not by the Greek government discontinuing the negotiations or any Greek thoughts of Grexit and devaluation. Greece’s place in the Eurozone and in the European Union is non-negotiable.
6. The future demands a proud Greece within the Eurozone and at the heart of Europe. This future demands that Greeks say a big NO on Sunday, that we stay in the Euro Area, and that, with the power vested upon us by that NO, we renegotiate Greece’s public debt as well as the distribution of burdens between the haves and the have nots.

http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/07/0...o-in-the-referendum-in-6-short-bullet-points/

 

[Funky Papa]

Spanish president Mariano Rajoy poopooing again Greece in hopes for a Syriza implossion just to hurt Podemo's chances at the next general comices.

I cannot believe the galls on this cunt. He'd let Greece sink into the Mediterranean if that helped him to win the elections.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Spanish president Mariano Rajoy poopooing again Greece in hopes for a Syriza implossion just to hurt Podemo's chances at the next general comices.

I cannot believe the galls on this cunt. He'd let Greece sink into the Mediterranean if that helped him to win the elections.

It will do the opposite. When austerians come knocking at Spain's door in a few months, and people will see Greece (and it being kicked out?) as a sign of what's to come, they'll vote for the only party that could stand up to them.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Funny, now they are all waiting until the referendum is done, effectively giving Greeks s good reason to vote no since it basically affirms that negotiations will resume after the vote even if it's no (especially if it's no). If it's yes they'll just hope and wait for elections that could bring some yes-man in power, but who do they think the Greeks would vote for?

This whole thing is going to drag for the rest of the year, which just increases the chances that other events will pile up, such as another country defaulting or recessions, etc.

Shouldn't you be happy for this. If they continue negotiations people would just scream they are undermining democracy and should let the people speak.

The whole thing is a mess already. Might as well wait. Not like the Greek government will accept anything before that either.

 

[norinrad]

Spanish president Mariano Rajoy poopooing again Greece in hopes for a Syriza implossion just to hurt Podemo's chances at the next general comices.

I cannot believe the galls on this cunt. He'd let Greece sink into the Mediterranean if that helped him to win the elections.

Whats the problem? You'd do the same if you were in his position. This is power

 

[oti]

OK, Butter bei die Fische as we say in Germany. What would YOU vote?

Yes
No

 

[EdwardTeach]

no, the eurozone countries should give some real debt relief.

 

[Funky Papa]

Whats the problem? You'd do the same if you were in his position. This is power

He's interfering in an internal process by trying to scare the Greek electorate into voting yes, willing to destroy the economy of an already impoverished country, kick thousands of people out of their homes or worse and tarnish Spain's international reputation just to damage a local political adversary. An rival that isn't even stealing votes from him, but promising things such auditing the Spanish debt.

It's cuntery of the highest order. There's no excuse for this level of external ingerence.

 

[Engell]

OK, Butter bei die Fische as we say in Germany. What would YOU vote?

Yes
No

blank vote.. what am i even voting for here

 

[hydrophilic attack]

OK, Butter bei die Fische as we say in Germany. What would YOU vote?

Yes
No

I would vote no.

He's interfering in an internal process by trying to scare the Greek electorate into voting yes, willing to destroy the economy of an already impoverished country, kick thousands of people out of their homes or worse and tarnish Spain's international reputation just to damage a local political adversary.

It's cuntery of the highest order. There's no excuse for this level of external ingerence.

This probably won't happen. Unfortunately, a lot of the international media is on Germany's side here. Rightly or wrongly (I would say wrongly) most of the world views Greece as the villain here, so bashing them wouldn't really lead to worsened reputation.

 

[Joni]

Most of the population not understanding the importance of monetary sovereignty isn't exactly anything new.

Even when you've four countries serving as living examples.

It is just a majority of people realizing how their life is better with than without.
Being connected gives most of our countries a lot more international power we would certainly not have otherwise.
People

 

[Funky Papa]

I would vote no.



This probably won't happen. Unfortunately, a lot of the international media is on Germany's side here. Rightly or wrongly (I would say wrongly) most of the world views Greece as the villain here, so bashing them wouldn't really lead to worsened reputation.

Yeah, but we share the Mediterranean with Greece (along its many troubles) and it's in our best interest to remain friendly.

 

[ElTorro]

Funny to watch how the markets go up and down with every fart of a statement from either side.

 

[Coriolanus]

It is just a majority of people realizing how their life is better with than without.
Being connected gives most of our countries a lot more international power we would certainly not have otherwise.
People

You can be an economic block without sharing the same currency.
Sharing the currency has very little to nearly nothing to do with that connectedness.

Funny to watch how the markets go up and down with every fart of a statement from either side.

More sad than funny. This is what happens literally every single time the great game finds the most minor of hiccups. They who panic get rekt.
Hence, index funds.

 

[chadskin]

 

[norinrad]

He's interfering in an internal process by trying to scare the Greek electorate into voting yes, willing to destroy the economy of an already impoverished country, kick thousands of people out of their homes or worse and tarnish Spain's international reputation just to damage a local political adversary. An rival that isn't even stealing votes from him, but promising things such auditing the Spanish debt.

It's cuntery of the highest order. There's no excuse for this level of external ingerence.

As disgusted as i am with Rajoy and a lot of the European leaders, I'd still like to see the end game. This whole mess is going to set Europe back for many years.

 

[Coriolanus]

This thing will become so awesome if the Court decide that the referendum can't go ahead.

 

[CyclopsRock]

As disgusted as i am with Rajoy and a lot of the European leaders, I'd still like to see the end game. This whole mess is going to set Europe back for many years.

I'm curious as to why you'd like to see the end game, given that we have a perfect example in front of us of exactly why it'd be undesirable.

 

[nature boy]

OK, Butter bei die Fische as we say in Germany. What would YOU vote?

Yes
No

No, simply because yes is kicking down the can and the Greek people deserves better than this dragging on.

Syriza is still the most popular party so the only outcome is to leave the Euro and EU.

 

[valouris]

Varoufakis now interviewed on ERT

 

[Ether_Snake]

No, simply because yes is kicking down the can and the Greek people deserves better than this dragging on.

Syriza is still the most popular party so the only outcome is to leave the Euro and EU.

The euro yes, the EU no, the EU just needs some serious reforms.

 

[Frankfurter]

It will do the opposite. When austerians come knocking at Spain's door in a few months, and people will see Greece (and it being kicked out?) as a sign of what's to come, they'll vote for the only party that could stand up to them.

Why would austerians knock at Spains doors in a few months? The economy is projected to grow ~3% this year, its fiscal position is getting better and better, it can borrow money for very cheap, its unemployment is slowly but steadily coming down.

 

[uuaschbaer]

The euro yes, the EU no, the EU just needs some serious reforms.

Replacement of the people running it? It seems that the EU politicians aren't interested in the moderate, democratic EU that––it seems to me––most people wish for.

 

[Theonik]

Spanish president Mariano Rajoy poopooing again Greece in hopes for a Syriza implossion just to hurt Podemo's chances at the next general comices.

I cannot believe the galls on this cunt. He'd let Greece sink into the Mediterranean if that helped him to win the elections.

Varoufakis just dun told him btw. Some masterful Jesusing goin' on.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Varoufakis now interviewed on ERT

If you're watching, please keep us posted!

 

[Syriel]

I'm curious as to why you'd like to see the end game, given that we have a perfect example in front of us of exactly why it'd be undesirable.

Because some sort of conclusion (as opposed to endless delays and financial purgatory) would be preferable for the Greek people.

Rather than the constant back-and-forth, just picking a path and sticking to it would at least give people an idea of what to expect.

 

[Joni]

You can be an economic block without sharing the same currency.
Sharing the currency has very little to nearly nothing to do with that connectedness.

It just forces you to remain connected which is equally important. And that is discounting all practical effects.

 

[Coriolanus]

It just forces you to remain connected which is equally important. And that is discounting all practical effects.

One could just as easily argue that free transit is a large component of that.

The practical effect in a plastic money world also seems a bit of an overstatement.

Plus we're kinda seeing the effects of half-assing the monetary integration.

 

[Theonik]

If you're watching, please keep us posted!

It was quite interesting.

Edit: ERT's coverage is surprisingly balanced.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

It just forces you to remain connected which is equally important. And that is discounting all practical effects.

Except it clearly hasn't, or we'd have eurobonds and fiscal transfers, the most important parts of trying to maintain a connected currency.

 

[valouris]

If you're watching, please keep us posted!

Nothing really new. Stated again that "No" does not mean exit from eurozone.

Some interesting comments on Eurogroup proceedings, some comments that he is surprised (as an unexperienced politician) how things Shcauble (and others) say behind closed doors vastly differ from what is said in press conferences.

Also, on the very first meeting with Djisselbloem in February (before that infamous press conference), that Djisselbloem told him that they either sign the existing program or they go outside of the program.

The rest can be found in Guardian's live feed: http://www.theguardian.com/business...rs-consider-next-moves-after-imf-default-live

 

[norinrad]

It was quite interesting.

Edit: ERT's coverage is surprisingly balanced.

What kind of propaganda is the professor spewing out now? Why did they wait until the last minute to come with a proposal thinking the EU ministers were going to fall for it?

 

[chadskin]

Parties that support a "No" in the referendum:

• The Coalition of the Radical Left (Greek: Συνασπισμός Ριζοσπαστικής Αριστεράς, Synaspismós Rizospastikís Aristerás), mostly known by its acronym Syriza (sometimes styled SYRIZA; Greek: ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, pronounced [ˈsiɾiza]), is a left-wing political party in Greece, originally founded in 2004 as a coalition of left-wing and radical left parties.
• The Independent Greeks (Greek: Ανεξάρτητοι Έλληνες, Anexartitoi Ellines, ANEL) is a conservative, national-conservative and right-wing populist political party in Greece.
• The Popular Association – Golden Dawn (Greek: Λαϊκός Σύνδεσμος – Χρυσή Αυγή, Laïkós Sýndesmos – Chrysí Avgí), usually known simply as Golden Dawn (Greek: Χρυσή Αυγή, Chrysí Avgí pronounced [xriˈsi avˈʝi]), is a far-right political party in Greece.

(per Wikipedia)

 

[Ooga Booga]

There are more parties that support "No", but they are outside of the parliament. Most if not all of them are far left or communist parties.

 

[Coriolanus]

Iirc KKE is also for OXI.

 

[Theonik]

What kind of propaganda is the professor spewing out now? Why did they wait until the last minute to come with a proposal thinking the EU ministers were going to fall for it?

See:

Some interesting comments on Eurogroup proceedings, some comments that he is surprised (as an unexperienced politician) how things Shcauble (and others) say behind closed doors vastly differ from what is said in press conferences.

Also, on the very first meeting with Djisselbloem in February (before that infamous press conference), that Djisselbloem told him that they either sign the existing program or they go outside of the program.

The rest can be found in Guardian's live feed: http://www.theguardian.com/business/...f-default-live

They claimed that they presented many official proposals over the last few months behind closed doors with the creditors but they were all rejected. Their claim was that this was the first official proposal on the 25th they received from the Troika.

 

[Ooga Booga]

Iirc KKE is also for OXI.

No, KKE, is supposed to vote with their own ballots, which will be invalid. Just a piece of paper that will say "No" to both the proposed measures of the government and the proposed measures of Troika.

Source: http://www.902.gr/eidisi/politiki/7...ma-diadoste-tin-typoste-tin-rixte-tin-stin#/0

 

[chadskin]

Iirc KKE is also for OXI.

Indeed, added them to the list as well, thanks. Fascinating mixture.

No, KKE, is supposed to vote with their own ballots, which will be invalid. Just a piece of paper that will say "No" to both the proposed measures of the government and the proposed measures of Troika.

Well, they're still going to campaign/vote for "No" in the referendum, right?

 

[valouris]

Poll just released shows Yes winning

http://twitter.com/MacroPolis_gr/status/616328934280560640/photo/1

 

[nature boy]

The euro yes, the EU no, the EU just needs some serious reforms.

Legally, they'll have to leave the EU too.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Nothing really new. Stated again that "No" does not mean exit from eurozone.

Some interesting comments on Eurogroup proceedings, some comments that he is surprised (as an unexperienced politician) how things Shcauble (and others) say behind closed doors vastly differ from what is said in press conferences.

Also, on the very first meeting with Djisselbloem in February (before that infamous press conference), that Djisselbloem told him that they either sign the existing program or they go outside of the program.

The rest can be found in Guardian's live feed: http://www.theguardian.com/business...rs-consider-next-moves-after-imf-default-live

See:

They claimed that they presented many official proposals over the last few months behind closed doors with the creditors but they were all rejected. Their claim was that this was the first official proposal on the 25th they received from the Troika.

Cheers!

 

[Theonik]

Well, they're still going to campaign/vote for "No" in the referendum, right?

Throwing away their votes. Which is typical. Then they wonder why nobody invites them to parties.

 

[Ted Striker]

This thing will become so awesome if the Court decide that the referendum can't go ahead.

This court doesn't have jurisdiction over the matter.

 

[Ooga Booga]

Well, they're still going to campaign/vote for "No" in the referendum, right?

Unfortunately not. You can see the source above. This stance is seen as a big betrayal by many other left parties.

 

[Theonik]

To anyone new in Greek politics, KKE stance in pretty much everything for at least a decade can be summarised by a single GIF

 

[Coriolanus]

This court doesn't have jurisdiction over the matter.

I'm talking about this court.

From guardian, two hours ago:

Greece’s highest court in the land, the council of state, may have the last say in whether a referendum is held on Sunday after receiving an appeal from citizens for the vote to cancelled for being illegitimate on constitutional grounds.

The tribunal has said it will consider the appeal - apparently made by two individuals - on Friday with a judgement expected later that day!

Also, via MacroPolis

 

[Ted Striker]

I'm talking about this court.

From guardian, two hours ago:


Also, via MacroPolis

AFAIK jurisdiction over the validity of a referendum belongs to the Supreme Special Court

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Special_Court_(Greece)

 

[Theonik]

Man I saw one of the 'Yes' adverts earlier. This seriously felt like anti-vaxer advertisements.