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[KHarvey16]

How, as a lawyer, do you argue that a punch to the face is a disproportionate response to a punch to the face? Did he wind up and throw a haymaker? Did he double axe handle her in the back of the head? Did he pummel her mercilessly on the ground? Did he put on brass knuckles? Whip out a club or knife? Pull a gun? He responded with proportionate force to an assault on his person and stopped his attacker... after she wrestled herself free of his previous non-violent attempts to stop her assaulting him.

The only way you could argue that he was not justified is if you argued that a grown woman is physically incapable of harming a man with her fists.

I don't believe he, at any point in that confrontation, was in danger of being injured to a degree that would justify the level of force he used on her. She threw a sloppy punch while being restrained that a) mostly missed and b) wouldn't justify the level of force even if it didn't. He can continue to restrain her or simply remove himself from the area.

I can't for one second believe anyone who watches the video believes those two punches were equivalent.

 

[Alo0oy]

I guess it's true what they say, on the Internet, there's a defense force for everything.

 

[Icewear Vezzo]

Bae <3

I guess it's true what they say, on the Internet, there's a defense force for everything.

Are you gonna actually state your opinion or are you just gonna leave with this drive by?

 

[0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55]

And both was dealt to him or did you not watch the video?

All I saw in the video was a glancing blow across the face. No audio. And then he decked her straight in the grill.

 

[Kinitari]

Yeah that punch wasn't in self defense. I mean, everything that woman did that I can see is wrong, and I can understand being extremely upset in his shoes, but that doesn't excuse what he did. Has nothing to do with gender, or even really size - it's about strictly proportional response and mitigating confrontation that could potentially lead to grievous injury. I've defended the idea of physically responding to a woman assaulting a man, but that's really when you're in real trouble of getting injured by a punch, a weapon or even just getting a thumbnail in the eye or something. This was an extremely drunk girl, with bad aim who took a half-hearted swing.

 

[Drewly]

She hit first, he acted in self defense. Totally justified.

 

[BajiBoxer]

I am just curious, how many people defending her have actually been punched in the face by surprise? How many of you have been in any kind of street fight? It is easy to say that he shouldn't have punched her while you calmly sit in your chair or have never been punched in the face by a complete stranger. It is also funny when people blame him for going out and trying to enjoy his youth, like any college kid. It is not like he was out gang banging.

But the situation you describe didn't happen. He wasn't just sneak attacked while chilling at the bar, and this wasn't a street fight. He also isn't just any college kid either, but I think that's a different discussion.

 

[Officerrob]

And both was dealt to him or did you not watch the video?

Did you read lips in the video, or just buying what his attorney says 100%?

 

[BadAss2961]

How, as a lawyer, do you argue that a punch to the face is a disproportionate response to a punch to the face? Did he wind up and throw a haymaker? Did he double axe handle her in the back of the head? Did he pummel her mercilessly on the ground? Did he put on brass knuckles? Whip out a club or knife? Pull a gun? He responded with proportionate force to an assault on his person and stopped his attacker... after she wrestled herself free of his previous non-violent attempts to stop her assaulting him.

The only way you could argue that he was not justified is if you argued that a grown woman is physically incapable of harming a man with her fists.

lol.

Did he wind up a bionic elbow? Did he leg drop this girl?

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

did her punch even land

his punch almost knocked her off the chair she was sitting on

She started a physical confrontation. He ended it quickly.

If he gets people to testify that she used hate speech and kneed him in the junk before said punch, the single punch looks less and less damning to a sympathetic jury. Then again, it is Florida.

 

[Frog-fu]

All I saw in the video was a glancing blow across the face. No audio. And then he decked her straight in the grill.

Even a glancing blow can hurt, and regardless of whether or not it did, the reaction is justified, and the punch was obviously reactionary. The guy didn't stand there and contemplate hitting her while she turned back to her drink. He got hit, he hit back. Justified. Hell, even if she had missed and he struck her, he would've been perfectly justified in doing so.

 

[Jawbreaker]

The part you're missing is that there's actually an available space next to her. You can see it even in the gifs.

He didn't shove her at all. The most he did was bump into her when he went to stand in that available space. And sorry, but in a crowded bar you kinda need to expect that.

I see the space, but when he's trying to get into that area, he's doing it while not having enough clearance to get in without pushing/brushing/shoving/whatever up against the woman in the video. There was enough contact there to upset her based on her reaction. Regardless of all that, I'm of the opinion that both could have taken a different approach to deescalate, but ultimately, the guy used disproportionate force and shouldn't have grabbed the woman when she appeared to be telling him to back away.

 

[royalan]

I don't believe he, at any point in that confrontation, was in danger of being injured to a degree that would justify the level of force he used on her. She threw a sloppy punch while being restrained that a) mostly missed and b) wouldn't justify the level of force even if it didn't. He can continue to restrain her or simply remove himself from the area.

I can't for one second believe anyone who watches the video believes those two punches were equivalent.

Obviously, he couldn't continue to restrain her, as his restraining her did nothing to stop her from attacking him. There's also no indication from the video that she would have stopped assaulting him after that first punch. He used necessary force to stop the threat to his person, it doesn't matter if that level of force is greater than what she exhibited. She punched him, he responded in kind. He didn't even punch with his full strength. She would have been knocked out cold if he had.

I see the space, but when he's trying to get into that area, he's doing it while not having enough clearance to get in without pushing/brushing/shoving/whatever up against the woman in the video. There was enough contact there to upset her based on her reaction. Regardless of all that, I'm of the opinion that both could have taken a different approach to deescalate, but ultimately, the guy used disproportionate force and shouldn't have grabbed the woman when she appeared to be telling him to back away.

Have you ever been to a popular club on a weekend? There's never clearance at the bar. You find a space and you squeeze into it. If she wasn't ready for that kind of contact with another person without immediately resorting to violence, then she simply doesn't possess the mental fortitude to even handle being at a bar.

 

[Officerrob]

She hit first, he acted in self defense. Totally justified.

That's not how self defense works

 

[GoldenEye 007]

I think these are my final thoughts here.

If he remains the only one charged, I won't be upset if his lawyer gets him off. His lawyer is Jose Baez, the same one who defended Casey Anthony.

If they both end up getting charged, then I'd be fine with both being found guilty of whatever.

 

[Officerrob]

Even a glancing blow can hurt, and regardless of whether or not it did, the reaction is justified, and the punch was obviously reactionary. The guy didn't stand there and contemplate hitting her while she turned back to her drink. He got hit, he hit back. Justified. Hell, even if she had missed and he struck her, he would've been perfectly justified in doing so.

This is hilariously untrue

 

[devilhawk]

If, and that's a big if, everything he said is true I think he'll likely walk.

The big question is will any college let alone NFL team touch him even if he's vindicated.

It's never okay to hit a woman, just like it's never okay to call someone a racial slur, knee them in the genitals, and repeatedly try to punch them.

We need to get passed this. I'm not saying the girl is Ronda Rousey, but she easily outweighs many of the male posters here.

 

[Drewly]

That's not how self defense works

Please explain it to me then. She hit first and who knows what else she would've / could've done. She could have injured him. So he defended his own physical integrity by hitting her. His hit stopped the physical abuse SHE started. He should sue her too.

 

[AyaisMUsikWhore]

Did you read lips in the video, or just buying what his attorney says 100%?

All I saw in the video was a glancing blow across the face. No audio. And then he decked her straight in the grill.

Well if they have witnesses who can testify on the behalf of the player that she did throw racial slurs then what? I don't doubt there weren't words thrown that wasn't racial but obvious swearing but clearly there was more said than just two people who decided to get to this one area and the outcome was an instant fight.

She says something to him in his ear and he mouths something back, then that's when the confrontation happens.

 

[KHarvey16]

Obviously, he couldn't continue to restrain her, as his restraining her did nothing to stop her from attacking him. There's also no indication from the video that she would have stopped assaulting him after that first punch. He used necessary force to stop the threat to his person, it doesn't matter if that level of force is greater than what she exhibited. She punched him, he responded in kind. He didn't even punch with his full strength. She would have been knocked out cold if he had.

The force he used was obviously unnecessary. Her punch didn't land and wasn't going to injure him as she continued to be restrained. The fear of injury you claim he could have had is not reasonable and would not justify the use of force.

You're trying to use the fallacious reasoning that because the level of force did stop the threat, the level of force was necessary to stop the threat.

 

[Surface of Me]

People saying the girl should be charged as well are being facetious, right?

 

[Icewear Vezzo]

Its crazy that this racist lady ruined this dude's career

smh so fucked up

 

[GoldenEye 007]

People saying the girl should be charged as well are being facetious, right?

If she punched him initially and also potentially kneed him in the groin, why shouldn't she be charged? Also while reportedly using a fighting word.

 

[genjiZERO]

He got kicked off the team and is facing charges.

So what about Jamis Winston's rape case?

Um, she hit him first.

Is he supposed to rub it off and sit down somewhere else in the bar, while everyone laughs at him and he got assaulted? No.

People need to stop blaming the guys in these cases all of the time, the female was clearly the aggressor and yet the guy is a piece of shit and not the female who got physical with him....wow.

Yes, he's a piece of shit because he's way way bigger than she is.

 

[royalan]

The force he used was obviously unnecessary. Her punch didn't land and wasn't going to injure him as she continued to be restrained. The fear of injury you claim he could have had is not reasonable and would not justify the use of force.

You're trying to use the fallacious reasoning that because the level of force did stop the threat, the level of force was necessary to stop the threat.

A woman's punch, if it lands, is strong enough to break a man's nose. His punch didn't even do that her.

You can't dismiss her attack because it "kinda didn't but did" land. She still threw the punch, point blank.

 

[Assanova]

If she punched him initially and also potentially kneed him in the groin, why shouldn't she be charged?

Because reasons. These girls continue to hit men because there are no repercussions and they have been raised to think that it is okay because the boy is not allowed to hit back. Entitlement at its finest.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

I don't believe he, at any point in that confrontation, was in danger of being injured to a degree that would justify the level of force he used on her. She threw a sloppy punch while being restrained that a) mostly missed and b) wouldn't justify the level of force even if it didn't. He can continue to restrain her or simply remove himself from the area.

I can't for one second believe anyone who watches the video believes those two punches were equivalent.

So now two punches must be thrown with exactly equal and opposite force to prevent an assault charge during a bar fight? Or hell, any fight?

If he wrestles this chick to the ground, puts her in an armbar, or even shoves her while restraining her, he's still getting kicked off the team.

 

[Big Baybee]

People saying the girl should be charged as well are being facetious, right?

No, she attacked him. Because he wasn't hurt we should ignore that? Being pissed someone bumped you doesn't give you the right to threaten (raising her fist), and then eventually hitting him. Why are you fine with that is what I'd ask.

 

[Jawbreaker]

I am just curious, how many people defending her have actually been punched in the face by surprise? How many of you have been in any kind of street fight? If you have, then you know the difference between reacting and stopping to think about it can be the difference between walking away with minor injuries or getting placed into a hospital. It is easy to say that he shouldn't have punched her while you calmly sit in your chair or have never been punched in the face by a complete stranger. It is also funny when people blame him for going out and trying to enjoy his youth, like any college kid. It is not like he was out gang banging.

I have. I was physically assaulted by a jealous man who would stalk my ex girlfriend at a bar, but he had some loose screws in his head. Instead of punching back, I attempted to restrain him (it worked), all while he was yelling racist bullshit at me about being a "lazy Hispanic." I was able to get the bouncers to take care of him in short order and I left soon after. The guy wasn't weak by any means, but I knew he had some mental health issues and I knew to try restraining him and calling for help before starting a physical fight inbetween a bunch of people. When I consider someone like the woman in this video (she didn't throw a punch or knee until the guy put his hands on her), throwing a punch doesn't even cross my mind because it's disproportionate and unnecessary

 

[Kinitari]

Obviously, he couldn't continue to restrain her, as his restraining her did nothing to stop her from attacking him. There's also no indication from the video that she would have stopped assaulting him after that first punch. He used necessary force to stop the threat to his person, it doesn't matter if that level of force is greater than what she exhibited. She punched him, he responded in kind. He didn't even punch with his full strength. She would have been knocked out cold if he had.

I think the best defense the guy has that, in the heat of the moment, while at a bar (probably a bit drunk) it was a bit hard to in a split second make a quick value judgement on the potential damage she could inflict on him and reacted quickly without thinking. Because from the cold hard birds eye video, it doesn't for a second seem like he was in any real trouble. It's tough to say exactly what he should have done though, even from this position. I think the 'best' case I can think of is he pushes her away when she starts all that nonsense (even then, not too hard, a drunk person can fall and crack their head pretty easy) go up to a bouncer and calmly tell them that there is a drunk girl at the bar swinging punches and starting nonsense, and they'd probably bounce her - which would not let her 'get away with it'.

 

[Wuthering_Heights]

People saying the girl should be charged as well are being facetious, right?

Nope. She punched him, too. I'm pretty sure that's assault.

I don't have a law degree, though, so maybe I'm mistaken. Are the laws different for men and women?

 

[GTP_Daverytimes]

It goes for physical and verbal provocation. Unless he needs to physically defend himself, assault is not excused. Even if he were in a position to justifiably defend himself, his response must be proportional to the threat.

The fuck are you talking about? the hell is proportional?

 

[Icewear Vezzo]

Because reasons. These girls continue to hit men because there are no repercussions and they have been raised to think that it is okay because the boy is not allowed to hit back. Entitlement at its finest.

Exactly.

If some racist women kicks me in the groin and punches me in the face two times I'm decking her, and feeling good about myself for leaving some racist piece of shit who assaulted me with a lump on their forehead.

 

[devilhawk]

A woman's punch, if it lands, is strong enough to break a man's nose. His punch didn't even do that her.

You can't dismiss her attack because it "kinda didn't but did" land. She still threw the punch, point blank.

It's like denying self-defense because the instigator's initial gunshot missed and your immediate return shot didn't.

 

[King Tubby]

No sympathy for her, but he's stupid for doing it. Black man punching a white woman, no way you're gonna win there.

 

[Averon]

People saying the girl should be charged as well are being facetious, right?

Uh. She assaulted him first. She was the initial aggressor in all this. Why shouldn't she be charged?

 

[Trojita]

Yeah that punch wasn't in self defense. I mean, everything that woman did that I can see is wrong, and I can understand being extremely upset in his shoes, but that doesn't excuse what he did. Has nothing to do with gender, or even really size - it's about strictly proportional response and mitigating confrontation that could potentially lead to grievous injury. I've defended the idea of physically responding to a woman assaulting a man, but that's really when you're in real trouble of getting injured by a punch, a weapon or even just getting a thumbnail in the eye or something. This was an extremely drunk girl, with bad aim who took a half-hearted swing.

She also allegedly kneed him in the balls.

 

[KHarvey16]

A woman's punch, if it lands, is strong enough to break a man's nose. His punch didn't even do that her.

You can't dismiss her attack because it "kinda didn't but did" land. She still threw the punch, point blank.

I'm not dismissing her attack. I'm telling you that her attack did not justify his response, and obviously so. It's not even close to be honest with you.

So now two punches must be thrown with exactly equal and opposite force to prevent an assault charge during a bar fight? Or hell, any fight?

Reductio ad absurdum much? The response must be reasonable, not precisely equal. His level of violence was not proportional to hers by orders of magnitude. We don't need our micrometers for this one.

 

[Velcro Fly]

She also allegedly kneed him in the balls.

He looked fine enough in those videos punching her in the face. Didn't look like it bothered him too much!

 

[smokeandmirrors]

Its crazy that this racist lady ruined this dude's career

smh so fucked up

Yep entirely her fault he's no longer on the team...

Get out of here with this bullshit. It takes two to tango

 

[Icewear Vezzo]

So what about Jamis Winston's rape case?



Yes, he's a piece of shit because he's way way bigger than she is.

But she's not a piece of shit for assaulting him.....

ridiculous double standard lol

It's okay to assault strangers but not okay to defend yourself against a weaker person?

 

[Frog-fu]

This is hilariously untrue

Florida state law states

776.012&#8195;Use or threatened use of force in defense of person.—
(1)&#8195;A person is justified in using or threatening to use force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. A person who uses or threatens to use force in accordance with this subsection does not have a duty to retreat before using or threatening to use such force.

Read the bold.

He bumped into her at a crowded bar. She confronted him with a raised fist and mouths off. Any person would reasonably believe they would have to defend themselves in such an instant. He restrains her unsuccessfully. She strikes him. He strikes back.

 

[CLEEK]

People saying the girl should be charged as well are being facetious, right?

Why?

She instigated it. She verbally abused him. She raised a fist to him.

By Florida law, this is assault.

Then she possible kneed him, but definitely punched him.

By Florida law, this is battery.

http://statelaws.findlaw.com/florida-law/florida-assault-and-battery-laws.html

No one has the right to assault or batter another person. Why are you defending the woman? Because she's a woman?

 

[Nephtis]

I have. I was physically assaulted by a jealous man who would stalk my ex girlfriend at a bar, but he had some loose screws in his head. Instead of punching back, I attempted to restrain him (it worked), all while he was yelling racist bullshit at me about being a "lazy Hispanic." I was able to get the bouncers to take care of him in short order and I left soon after. The guy wasn't weak by any means, but I knew he had some mental health issues and I knew to try restraining him and calling for help before starting a physical fight inbetween a bunch of people. When I consider someone like the woman in this video (she didn't throw a punch or knee until the guy put his hands on her), throwing a punch doesn't even cross my mind because it's disproportionate and unnecessary

Your entire argument falls flat with the bolded.

Yours is an entirely different situation, especially since you knew he had mental issues. In this case, the woman, a complete stranger, called him names, punched, and kicked him in the groin.

I don't advocate hitting women, but if I was in his place? Chances are, I probably would've done the same. A single punch stopped the conflict. Dude did the right thing.

 

[0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55]

Why are we not discussing the overall wearing bartender at the end of the video?

Haute Couture

 

[Kinitari]

The fuck are you talking about? the hell is proportional?

It's probably easier describing what isn't proportional. Like, someone tries to slap you, and you pull out a knife it isn't proportional. But it's not just about matching the weapon or whatever, but about really using the least amount of force required to prevent harm to yourself. Sometimes that might mean you kill someone, other times a push is legit, sometimes knocking someone out is legit. I don't think he -needed- to clock her like he did. I can sympathize on some level with his position, but it wasn't necessary to protect himself - and the sucky part is that might be something that he'd only realize after the fact if he was drunk.

 

[royalan]

I'm not dismissing her attack. I'm telling you that her attack did not justify his response, and obviously so. It's not even close to be honest with you.

Not even close? Two things are apparent here: that he didn't hit her with his full strength, and he didn't continue the attack beyond that one punch.

You, on the other hand, have to magically prove that a softer punch (exactly how much softer we're talking here, who knows but you) would have stopped her from attacking him.

Good luck with that.

 

[Surface of Me]

No, she attacked him. Because he wasn't hurt we should ignore that? Being pissed someone bumped you doesn't give you the right to threaten (raising her fist), and then eventually hitting him. Why are you fine with that is what I'd ask.

It seems she raised her first, he immediately grabs her arm and forcibly pushes her back and continues to restrain her, she punched him after he had done that. Then he decides it's okay to try and knock her out.

Exactly.

If some racist women kicks me in the groin and punches me in the face two times I'm decking her, and feeling good about myself for leaving some racist piece of shit who assaulted me with a lump on their forehead.

And I'd be feeling really good about another very ignorant, very violent person being served.

 

[Firelord Chargrilled]

The force he used was obviously unnecessary. Her punch didn't land and wasn't going to injure him as she continued to be restrained. The fear of injury you claim he could have had is not reasonable and would not justify the use of force.

You're trying to use the fallacious reasoning that because the level of force did stop the threat, the level of force was necessary to stop the threat.

There is only one Constant thing in this universe Bruh it's called Action and reaction Also Your logic is incredibly flawed and foolish at best.

 

[BobLoblaw]

What I find amazing is that when I went to bars and clubs back in the day, people would routinely bump and push to get to the counter. Everyone knew the deal. You get your drink or drinks and then move on. My question is didn't this woman know that?

It was just a guy trying to do the same thing that she was doing. Why snap and start talking trash to someone just trying to get to the space next to you? He wasn't harassing her or grabbing her or anything. In this case, thatescalatedquickly.gif would be used more for her than it would for him.