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Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Depends entirely on where you think Greece will be in 4 years. My prognosis says the shitter.
Greece votes OXI/No on more Austerity measures
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Depends entirely on where you think Greece will be in 4 years. My prognosis says the shitter.
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Deleted member 231381
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M°°nblade;171479294 said:
Depends. The implication is that the final 2 years of the current programme only ("only") involve E2bn. It may just be me, but it seems unlikely to me that if Greece had accepted the referendum offer and come back in 2 years, they'd have been able to get a 2nd 2-year extension for the same E2bn; their growth rate would have had to have sky-rocketed. On other words, I think this is more up-front hurt, but slightly less long-term hurt (although still too much hurt regardless).
anonymous_abc
Member
*snort*
The Pirates were hyperbole. But the AFD has only one seat less than the FDP and I am not sure if the FDP has eben remotely the relevance within Germany that the AFD now has. The AFD at least has a bunch of xenophob nutjobs, while the FDP is in political limbo.
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Deleted member 231381
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On the plus side marginal consumption from income will get higher and higher as people's incomes fall and a greater proportion of income is spent on basic necessities, so GDP is probably going to decrease at a slower pace.
Goods news, amirite?
Goods news, amirite?
anonymous_abc
Member
As of last week the AfD is also in political limbo. I doubt they will recover from that.
The correct answer is: All of them are irrelevant at this point.
anonymous_abc
Member
That's numberwang!
Gurgelhals
Member
Considering that the AFD is currently in self destruct mode as well, I can actually see the FDP getting back into the Bundestag come 2017 (and that is regardless of whether they actually manage to transform themselves back into a party that can be taken seriously or not).
Theonik
Member
They are interpreting it as a vote of confidence. lol
Negotiator
Banned
Isn't that part of this deal- an allowance for renegotiation?
It's in a different letter it seems and until now Germany was against any debt relief, so let's see.
My words exactly!
Member
Exactly. Especially if you 're dealing with IMF or EU bureaucratic elite. See below as well...
Also something VERY VERY important that indicates debt cut is on the table:
G.Varoufakis " We need an explicit agreement for debt cut now, Juncker will sell us like Venizelos "
http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/it...46;ενιζέλο
Varoufakis reads the new greek proposals in the greek parliament. His look says it all:
http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/it...;ες-από-τη
He was right in saying that he'd rather cut his ar than sign crazy austerity measures.
Careful what you wish for. GD would be the worst thing to ever happen to our country.
What is needed is a real government with balls and spine.
Anyway, more puking: Here's Potami and Bobolas lapdog with his friend Juncker today:
http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/it...61;ιμένουν
P.S.
uuaschbaer
Banned
They decided against what is happening, how is this cool?
My words exactly!
Member
Marine Le Pen : " Tsipras betrayed his people - The euro and austerity are Siamese brothers "
http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/it...5;-αδέρφια
http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/it...5;-αδέρφια
Well, at least Tsipras does not have to worry about being praised by the far-right anymore.
Interesting chart. Not sure if accurate.
Terribly disappointed with Charles Michel, but no surprise with Van Overtveldt as Finance Minister.
In other Belgian news:
http://www.politico.eu/article/tsipras-verhofstadt-speech-grexit-greece/
CyclopsRock
Member
Interesting chart. Not sure if accurate.
Any idea why the Netherlands is listed as Holland?
While inaccurate, it is very common in English speaking countries to refer to the Netherlands as Holland. That image is from RBS (Royal Bank of Scotland)
Theonik
Member
If this is what the European leadership has envisioned for Europe I agree. And I implore every other weaker country to think of the same. Staying in the Euro is madness. Their time will come. But they can yet be saved.
Both are valid games used in different countries. Might as well as complain about Greece.
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Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I don't know. Truly a puzzle for any Englishman, that one.
Because Kabouter.
Oh well, that is the people from England for you. Never could use the right name for a country.
My words exactly!
Member
Well shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit............
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eO1yYBm5wSo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eO1yYBm5wSo
petran79
Banned
Ever since the Marshall Plan, only a small part of those subsidies reached the Greek people.
Rest was annexed by those in charge.
Eastern European countries had already built an existing infrastructure and administration during the Socialist years. Things that did matter. Even Latvia's Prime Minister today was a staunch Communist back then.
Something Greece never had to such extent. Eg neighbour Bulgaria has still nuclear power plants. Even though Greece were still far ahead of those countries in living standards and organization in the 80s and 90s. So it was much easier for them to recover. 10 years ago if you were a Greek in those countries you were treated with awe and respect. Now they regard you with disdain and contempt.
CyclopsRock
Member
I complain vociferously about Greece, but not the spelling. Why?
Cheeky! We Great Briton's aren't so easily fooled.
Edit: that doesn't even make sense as a joke. Sorry.
Theonik
Member
CyclopsRock
Member
Oh, I seeeee. Good point!
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Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Should just call you Rhomania.
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Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Say no and commit humanitarian aid to a Grexit.
I'm living in the Netherlands currently, and I'd reckon even about 70% of the natives, speaking to me in English, refer to the country as Holland. As a foreigner, it would be strange to correct them, so I don't.
Even their official tourism website is Holland.com.
CyclopsRock
Member
I'm being slightly idealistic here, but she (slash her party slash her finance ministry slash whatever) must have an actual opinion on what would be a better outcome for Germany (which isn't necessarily the same as the best outcome for the Eurozone or Greece, but obviously those are linked in many ways). Whilst she'll certainly not be discounting the direct political fallout, if you have two shitty choices, surely you'd take the one you think is less shitty? Not that I know what she thinks that is.
Theonik
Member
Merkel doesn't give a shit about what any other country thinks so the answer here is obvious.
shinra-bansho
Member
Neither will be the outcome, and I'm assuming you're referring to a haircut on the nominal value of debt.
If Greece tumbling out of the Eurozone is avoided, there's probably room to talk about reducing the debt burden in other ways.
CyclopsRock
Member
I was (optimistically) thinking that maybe that was a tourism website for the Holland region. Then I saw that they include the Caribbean Netherlands so obviously not. They didn't even bother to wait for a sunny day to take the photos, the nuts.
I blame Fifa 96. Pretty sure they were "Holland" on there.
She doesn't care about France, Italy and the US. She cares about Spain, Portugal, Italy, et. al., which would make a No more attractive. At the same time, she wants to avoid any political and economic unrest that might result from a Grexit. Merkel's philosophy has always been to keep things just as they are. Don't provoke any chaos unless necessary.
Theonik
Member
Yes. But rather she doesn't care about their prosperity or their people. She cares about them not waking up and smelling the ashes.
Sadly I am lead to believe there really isn't. Once the issue is put under the rug again nothing will be done. And why would it? We were discussing about it being possible when the subject isn't toxic, but when it's not there will also be no motivation to deal with it. Ergo Greece will be promised things which will not be delivered again and will be shafted like they were in 2012, and any attempts at negotiation will be dealt with severe blackmail and financial warfare to drag them into the abyss.
TheLaughingStock
Member
For me, it's not something to get bent out of shape about because in the end it's not up to me. I respect the choice and plan to move on to other issues because Greek leaders aren't convinced by alternative perspectives. That's cool and best of luck to them with the proposal.
Theonik
Member
Ignoring a direct mandate from their people in a referendum which has basically caused severe sacrifice to the country is nothing to be upset about. OK.
I am still baffled by the fact that Tsipras thought the referendum would impress any of the creditors enough to radically change their positions. Why the fuck would you think that.
Probably the best idea at this point.
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