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[Toadthemushroom]

They didn't break their own standard. What's happening is the games support the current xinput, but also accept the old dinput standard. The xinput wrapper the generic USB controllers are using is translating dinput inputs into xinput inputs and passing them to the games. When a game supports both dinput and xinput the xinput wrapper is passing the inputs to the program while the program is also seeing the dinput inputs. So you get double inputs. What used to happen is they would "hide" the dinput device from windows programs so that only xinput inputs were seen by the programs. I'm sure they'll come up with a workaround.

The real issue is that the current standard is xinput and Sony doesn't support it which isn't really Microsoft's problem.

Directinput has been deprecated and has been superseded by xinput. You are asking all current developers to spend time and money supporting an obsolete standard because Sony won't provide the relevant support for their controllers on PC.

This.

It's also why I don't buy that this is some conspiracy to make people buy Xbox One controllers either; Windows 10 is about shipping a minimum viable project ever since Microsoft moved the team to Agile. The build that ships on July 29 is not a feature-complete release, instead it will receive regular feature updates throughout the lifetime of the operating system. There aren't going to be service packs as QA and testing for every new build of the OS are rolled out to the millions of insider build users in advance.

If you're trying to ship an operating system out in time and there's one thing that's broken which affects a tiny proportion of your actual userbase on day one -- also remember that xinput, which does work fine, has been the current standard for a decade -- then fixing that in time for launch day exactly going to be high up on their priority list. Especially when for the first time in Windows' history the actual featureset of the OS will be updated on a regular basis over the next few weeks, months and years.

 

[Occam]

Wait what.

...google...

Awwwww.



From: http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2015/07/17/windows-10-forced-automatic-updates/

From: http://www.theverge.com/2015/7/17/8987549/microsoft-windows-10-automatic-updates

Well there it is.

Hahah, wow. To anyone who doesn't absolutely require Windows for some reason, I really recommend giving Linux a try. For instance Ubuntu. It's free, incredibly stable, faster than Windows, has no viruses, no metro-bullshit touch interface. Includes free office software, too (libre office). I really hope that Steam for Linux will inspire more people to take a look.

 

[hodgy100]

forced updates are a bad thing? how?

 

[Occam]

forced updates are a bad thing? how?

Not being in control of your OS is a bad thing, yes. Not being able to manually decide what to install, or to roll back in case something doesn't work is bad.

 

[Toadthemushroom]

Automatic updates are a good thing. Like I posted above, Windows 10 will be regularly updated with feature updates (for example, the messaging app isn't ready in time for launch, and Microsoft Edge isn't feature complete), like, say, ChromeOS and the Google Chrome Browser.

So not only are people getting the security updates that are actually important, but they are getting the feature updates and developers can be sure that all users have access to the same features and APIs which prevents fragmentation. This isn't like previous versions of Windows which are developed to be feature complete by launch, Windows 10 as it launches on July 29 is a "minimum viable product", with regular feature updates throughout its lifetime.

Optional updates like driver updates should remain separate from this, though, as they can break things. If those are forced on the user, then that's not good.

The risk of Windows updates breaking things will be small compared to previous OS releases though. I remember there being infinite boot loop problem with a small proportion of Windows 7 users, for example, but with Windows 10 Microsoft has their millions of insider testers to run any updates through, something that's new to Windows -- the Windows team emulated how the Xbox team's insider system works with Xbox One, which allowed them to deliver valuable feature updates every month.

 

[Dreamwriter]

Not being in control of your OS is a bad thing, yes. Not being able to manually decide what to install, or to roll back in case something doesn't work is bad.

When has that ever happened with Windows? I can't think of a single time I ever wanted to roll back an official Windows update, or for that matter even noticed what an update did except sometimes with the huge service packs. I *can* think of a time a computer at work got a nasty virus because a person *didn't* install an important update...

 

[Crayon]

Automatic updates are a good thing. Like I posted above, Windows 10 will be regularly updated with feature updates (for example, the messaging app isn't ready in time for launch, and Microsoft Edge isn't feature complete), like, say, ChromeOS and the Google Chrome Browser.

So not only are people getting the security updates that are actually important, but they are getting the feature updates and developers can be sure that all users have access to the same features and APIs which prevents fragmentation. This isn't like previous versions of Windows which are developed to be feature complete by launch, Windows 10 as it launches on July 29 is a "minimum viable product", with regular feature updates throughout its lifetime.

.

My current os can do all that. But i say fuck it and turn the updater off because its my computer. I probably should update once in awhile but its my choice as the owner and operator.

Its important to some of us and not important for others.

 

[Phinor]

When has that ever happened with Windows? I can't think of a single time I ever wanted to roll back an official Windows update, or for that matter even noticed what an update did except sometimes with the huge service packs.

You might not have ever experienced it but I sure have. Not often, but it has happened. Also some updates have broken older software/programs etc. Forcing everyone to do something that works for 99.9% of the people is still going to cause millions of issues due to the sheer amount of users. That's why you always need an alternative solution ie. don't install an update.

Another issue is the driver updates and this is something that will be a huge issue for some users if they actually try to force driver updates. For example using 5+ year old hardware (TV cards etc.) that Windows incorrectly detects as something else than it actually is and tries to force drivers on that hardware that doesn't work at all. I've had Windows install me soundcard drivers that simply cause the card to not work at all. Or the past 3 months as an Nvidia user when their official WHQL certified drivers caused crashes for some people every 5-10 minutes, even outside of games. They finally managed to fix the issue but being forced to use new constantly crashing drivers would have been a great experience.

 

[leeh]

Not being in control of your OS is a bad thing, yes. Not being able to manually decide what to install, or to roll back in case something doesn't work is bad.

Overreacting much? Mandatory updates != lack of OS control.

It's only for security patches.

 

[Caayn]

Wait what.

...google...

Awwwww.



From: http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2015/07/17/windows-10-forced-automatic-updates/



From: http://www.theverge.com/2015/7/17/8987549/microsoft-windows-10-automatic-updates

Well there it is.

*Update control is still existent in every Windows 10 version, it's only the Home version that blocks access.

** Users can switch between a fast and slow ring, the slow ring will only get updates that have been used for a while in the fast ring. So system breaking bugs, that are already rare enough, thanks to updates are practically non-existent in the slow ring.

 

[Revolutionary]

When has that ever happened with Windows? I can't think of a single time I ever wanted to roll back an official Windows update, or for that matter even noticed what an update did except sometimes with the huge service packs. I *can* think of a time a computer at work got a nasty virus because a person *didn't* install an important update...

Just one example: http://news.softpedia.com/news/Micr...s-Down-YouTube-Videos-Some-Games-368018.shtml

 

[Tunesmith]

*Update control is still existent in every Windows 10 version, it's only the Home version that blocks access.

** Users can switch between a fast and slow ring, the slow ring will only get updates that have been used for a while in the fast ring. So system breaking bugs, that are already rare enough, thanks to updates are practically non-existent in the slow ring.

You can still disable the Windows Update service if you want in the Home version. They removed the GUI option, not the feature.

 

[jaxpunk]

Just one example: http://news.softpedia.com/news/Micr...s-Down-YouTube-Videos-Some-Games-368018.shtml

OH NO ripping youtube videos thru movie maker got screwed up, I'm sure a solid 12 people are devastated.

 

[Toadthemushroom]

My current os can do all that. But i say fuck it and turn the updater off because its my computer. I probably should update once in awhile but its my choice as the owner and operator.

Its important to some of us and not important for others.

Oh, I get the sentiment for sure. Personally speaking, I have it set only to install important updates automatically, not recommended updates. I still haven't seen the "Get Windows 10" app/tray icon because of that. I was really speaking broadly, that it's best for the majority of users on Windows, especially now that feature updates are a part of it.

As for the people saying it'll break things, it's less likely now because of how Microsoft tests the updates -- there are millions of Windows 10 Insider users/testers who receive the updates before they are rolled out.

 

[Khaos_Knight]

I just tested Batman Arkham Asylum and Strike Suit Zero: Director's Cut so far and my DS4 still works for those two.

 

[Crayon]

*Update control is still existent in every Windows 10 version, it's only the Home version that blocks access.

** Users can switch between a fast and slow ring, the slow ring will only get updates that have been used for a while in the fast ring. So system breaking bugs, that are already rare enough, thanks to updates are practically non-existent in the slow ring.

Thanks for the info.

So what version allows administration and how much would it cost?

 

[Bjoern the Smexy]

Are there any benefits to using DS4 on PC over Xbox One Controller? Or is it just purely down to preference.

I for one don't have an Xbox One controller but a DS4 and a 360 controller.
But since the PS4 controller has the better D-Pad I'd really like to use it instead of my 360 controller.

 

[Venfayth]

inputmapper seems to work for me?

Dualshock 4 wired connection....

I tried yesterday and exclusive mode never worked. I tried a billion things.

Is it possible there's something in W10 that you can actually turn off that will stop the system from grabbing the device immediately? There was speculation that it had to do with the Xbox app or livetiles or even NVidia Shadowplay.

 

[pants]

Automatic updates are a good thing.

No.

In this very situation I would have been without the option to play games with a DS4. Updates should not be forced, the user should be able to make an informed decision if they want an update or not. (risk/reward)

 

[jem0208]

Preference and not needing some silly proprietary dongle.

You can use a standard USB cable with the X1 controller.

 

[AndyD]

It has a mouse.

I have found this and macros to be the best features of the DS4 on Windows despite having to use a third party software inbetween.

My PC is in another room, so if Steam kicks to desktop or some game has one of those pre-menu menus, the mouse on the touchpad feature is a godsend.

And bluetooth of course.

 

[Viliger]

I just realized - WiinU Pro will probably have the same problem. I remember guy that developed it released update to fix Dark Souls support. I guess I will have to use Xbox 360 controller for some games.

 

[twozerotwo]

Damn. I only have Win 10 beta to install on a PC I'm building is weekend and I only have my DS4.

Guess it's a good thing I saw this thread. Gives me time to buy a wired 360 controller.

 

[Caayn]

Thanks for the info.

So what version allows administration and how much would it cost?

Windows 10 pro is $200 for a full copy without upgrading, or free if you're currently running Windows 7/8/8.1 Pro or ultimate edition.

 

[Crayon]

*Update control is still existent in every Windows 10 version, it's only the Home version that blocks access.

Seriously what does this mean? Every version except the one theyre giving away? Which version allows voluntary update? The enterprise license?

Why would you say its 'existent' in every version?

 

[RealityCheque]

Well fuck it. I'll be waiting to upgrade for a while then.

Sony, at PSX, will you please announce some official driver support. It's so easy, you could probably get an intern at Naughty Dog to do it for you!

 

[Toadthemushroom]

No.

In this very situation I would have been without the option to play games with a DS4. Updates should not be forced, the user should be able to make an informed decision if they want an update or not. (risk/reward)

It would have been nice if you didn't snip off the reasons as to why I believed automatic updates are a good thing when quoting my post.

I don't believe your reasoning is fair, because going from Windows 7/8.1 to 10 isn't an "automatic update". You're implying that an incremental update would have this sort of effect, when it's actually an entire OS upgrade. The two aren't the same things, one is far more likely to break legacy components than the other.

I'd explain why but I've posted reasons above as to why this has been the case, and why future updates in Windows 10 are far less likely to break things compared with previous versions.

 

[shockdude]

Automatic update download, manual installation was the best updating method. Did they get rid of that?

 

[SPDIF]

Hahah, wow. To anyone who doesn't absolutely require Windows for some reason, I really recommend giving Linux a try. For instance Ubuntu. It's free, incredibly stable, faster than Windows, has no viruses, no metro-bullshit touch interface. Includes free office software, too (libre office). I really hope that Steam for Linux will inspire more people to take a look.

But Windows 10 is also free, incredibly stable, faster than Windows

Spoiler

7

, has no metro-bullshit touch interface (unless you want it), and yes does also include some free office software (although you'll have to go to the store and download it). Malware is the only weak point, but in this day and age you have to be doing something very stupid to get any.

 

[undu]

I'm not amused about to autoupdate of arbitrary "system" software.

This last week I rolled back AMD drivers because Dirt Rally's performance bunked to the point of being much harder to play, even when lowering settings.

other examples of "system" regressions:
http://www.idganswers.com/question/13732/how-to-remove-broken-windows-7-kb3004394-update

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2859...ken-update-that-wreaks-havoc-on-software.html

http://www.infoworld.com/article/29...kb-3022345-and-kb-3048043-broke-updating.html

 

[Vooduu]

Damn. I only have Win 10 beta to install on a PC I'm building is weekend and I only have my DS4.

Guess it's a good thing I saw this thread. Gives me time to buy a wired 360 controller.

You can plug and play the Xbone controller via the micro usb cable that comes with your DS4. I recommend trying out the Xbone controller, I prefer it over the DS4.

Windows 10 has worked great for me so far.

 

[Parsnip]

Forcing updates is a pretty good thing you know, especially for the home edition that is used by a lot of computer illiterates. For a power use there's always pro edition that lets you defer the updates from the gui.



But this thread isn't about that.

 

[King Gilga]

You can use a standard USB cable with the X1 controller.

Wires is something I reserve exclusively for Mouse and Keyboard and GCN controller/Smash bros.

The day I have to use a wired controller is the day I don't use a controller.

 

[Crayon]

But Windows 10 is also free, incredibly stable, faster than Windows

Spoiler

7

, has no metro-bullshit touch interface (unless you want it), and yes does also include some free office software (although you'll have to go to the store and download it). Malware is the only weak point, but in this day and age you have to be doing something very stupid to get any.

But it doesn't let you run your own machine.

If you are going to lay down for that then you deserve no better.

 

[Three]

HID is just the standard that allows devices to interface with the computer. HID is not an API like directinput or xinput. Directinput itself is a proprietary API for windows. Directinput is deprecated and everyone should be moving to a different API at this point as it only exists for legacy support.

What people should be asking for is an open standard competitor to xinput, and not for developers and manufacturers to stick with an obsolete API for which Microsoft has dropped support.

I know. XUSB is the proprietary equivalent I mentioned. DirectInput may be proprietary much like windows itself but it supported HID unlike xinput which was made for xusb.

 

[Grief.exe]

I had to pull out my 360 controller this weekend.

My life is in a downward spiral now.

 

[Branson]

I had to pull out my 360 controller this weekend.

My life is in a downward spiral now.

Hey at least you were smart enough to have a backup plan. Shit breaks. Especially video games in the current generation.

Just assume everything will be fucked at launch and you won't be surprised.

 

[SPDIF]

But it doesn't let you run your own machine.

If you are going to lay down for that then you deserve no better.

I don't even know what that's supposed to mean. But anyway, if you really don't want your machine to be touched until you say so, just disable the Windows Update service. Problem solved, no? Or if you're using Windows 10 Pro, which I assume you will be, just choose to defer updates. You'll still be forced to install security patches but other updates like GPU drivers won't install for a few months.

 

[quesalupa]

If I'm understanding this correctly, this is pretty much a non-issue because the affected games already support Dualshock 4?

 

[Venfayth]

If I'm understanding this correctly, this is pretty much a non-issue because the affected games already support Dualshock 4?

They get two inputs for every button you hit. If I open up Dark Souls 2 right now with my DS4 plugged in, the camera spins forever because "Rotate Camera X Axis" is bound to my left shoulder button. So as long as the left shoulder button is not being held down half way, the camera spins. It's an unplayable mess.

 

[Kagami]

They get two inputs for every button you hit. If I open up Dark Souls 2 right now with my DS4 plugged in, the camera spins forever because "Rotate Camera X Axis" is bound to my left shoulder button. So as long as the left shoulder button is not being held down half way, the camera spins. It's an unplayable mess.

Can't you just shut down DS4Windows?

 

[Grief.exe]

Can't you just shut down DS4Windows?

You can, but I don't believe Dark Souls is natively compatible with Dinput.

 

[Revolutionary]

OH NO ripping youtube videos thru movie maker got screwed up, I'm sure a solid 12 people are devastated.

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=627906
Yep that was the only problem with the update (did you read any words past the title?) and yep only 12 people.
And again, this is but a single example. I'm certain there were many more over the years. But hey, keep at it.

 

[Kagami]

You can, but I don't believe Dark Souls is natively compatible with Dinput.

I thought being compatible with Dinput was the source of the double inputs.

 

[Dreamwriter]

I'm not amused about to autoupdate of arbitrary "system" software.

This last week I rolled back AMD drivers because Dirt Rally's performance bunked to the point of being much harder to play, even when lowering settings.

other examples of "system" regressions:
http://www.idganswers.com/question/13732/how-to-remove-broken-windows-7-kb3004394-update

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2859...ken-update-that-wreaks-havoc-on-software.html

http://www.infoworld.com/article/29...kb-3022345-and-kb-3048043-broke-updating.html

I don't think you understand what "system" software is. System software isn't video card drivers, those are from AMD or nVidea, not Microsoft. Microsoft doesn't give patches made by third parties. As for your "other examples of system regressions", sure MS released a bad patch in December...and then released a fix for it just two days later. So with automatic updates, any weirdnesses would have been solved with no hassle (I personally didn't experience any of that). Not having automatic updates might have allowed you to avoid that...or made it worse, because what if you happened to get that update, but not the fix two days later? Your second link is about the exact same issue, the third link is about an optional update, not one of the system updates that will be required (and again, Microsoft released a fixed patch just two days later for those anyways).

Microsoft also now has a realistic beta program, so any weird issues like those should be found before they go final.

 

[Grief.exe]

I thought being compatible with Dinput was the source of the double inputs.

I was messing around with SFIV this weekend, it would detect Dinput as well but only some of the buttons would work and they were all mixed around.

 

[Venfayth]

Can't you just shut down DS4Windows?

This is how it behaves for me in Dark Souls 2 even without DS4Windows running. When I hit the shoulder button it also hits 'select' or 'start'

 

[Kagami]

I was messing around with SFIV this weekend, it would detect Dinput as well but only some of the buttons would work and they were all mixed around.

Usually in directinput games you'll need to go into the button config and adjust things until they match your controller.

This is how it behaves for me in Dark Souls 2 even without DS4Windows running. When I hit the shoulder button it also hits 'select' or 'start'

What kind of button config options are there?

 

[Venfayth]

Usually in directinput games you'll need to go into the button config and adjust things until they match your controller.



What kind of button config options are there?

None for controller, only keyboard bindings are available.

 

[| Praxis |]

Great, I was looking forward to upgrading too. Looks like I'll wait as going back to a 360 pad is a depressing thought.