Support NeoGAF

[DarkFlow]

Is the hatred for socialism a residue of Cold War propaganda or is it just fundamentally clashing with the American belief in "individual responsibility"?
(Never mind that that philosophy seldom applies to powerful corporate criminals in the US)

It's part cold war, part cultural identity of working hard to achieve the "American Dream".

 

[DrFaustPhD]

God damn, the hate for Bernie from a few vocal members ITT is strong

But then again, I very much don't want Hillary to win. She lost me forever when she introduced the Family Entertainment Protection Act Which always seemed like a blatant pandering to mobs claiming video games cause shootings. It's hard to support someone that was willing to make such a drastic change to how an A&E medium is regulated (just not something I believe a government should be controlling).

 

[noshten]

You're ignoring how 2008 went down then, and in particular how the debates went down. Clinton is *good* at this stuff - she's extremely smart, well practised and capable. she made Obama look weak and lacking in substance - and Bernie doens't have Obama's other skills to fall back on.

And in terms of galvanising youth, I think you would be hugely surprised. I am really perplexed by why Bernie Sander's supporters seem determined to ignore both her past, her performance last time around and her stances. The idea that she's the democrat equivalent of Romney is laughably dumb and seems to be handwaving away the last 30 years whilst shouting "CORPORATE SHILL" as loudly as possible whilst hoping nobody notices.

Let me tell you what skills Obama had - aura, charisma, capability to seem down to Earth and outside the establishment.
I'm sure Al Gore had one hell of a resume and he is a smart man, practiced and capable but that's not what all people are looking for in a debate. I'm sure plenty of the Rebulican Candidates are practiced, smart and capable - yet time and time again after a debate results come in it's not exactly the smart guys on top.

Anyhow I fail to see what exactly makes Clinton more capable, practiced or smart in comparison to Sanders.

The comparison to Romney is very much on point. Both flip flopped on positions. Mitt Romney was a centrist Republican candidate - Clinton is the centrist Democratic candidate. Both will continue the same foreign policy. Both lost to Obama. Both fail to excite the base.

 

[User 463088]

Is the hatred for socialism a residue of Cold War propaganda or is it just fundamentally clashing with the American belief in "individual responsibility"?
(Never mind that that philosophy seldom applies to corporate criminals in the US)

I think it's both.

There's a very strong anti-government thread that runs through American history. Of course, we tried a weak federation early in our history, and it was disastrous. I think that the Cold War gave it a name, and there's no difference to many Americans between socialism and Communism.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Dear heavens.

There are quite a few polls, the one posted is from a few weeks ago, that shows the American populace is not comfortable voting for a socialist. You can try to explain it away by saying "If people just got it...they'd think differently." It hasn't happened.

I don't think you truly realize how many low information voters are out there. It may tick you off that they exist, but they still do. To write them off, as simply lazy or afraid of research, is a big part of the problem with some (not saying you but in general) of Bernie's supporters.

The Socialist label is a problem. Period. Hands down. It's a knock against him. It would be used against him in a general election. It would have weight because it is actually true in his case.

You don't get to erase generations of thinking about something by simply hoping people go online and research what it means. Most people can't be assed to vote, but these independent swing voters are going to magically take the time to research something that they've been conditioned to believe is anti-American because Bernie tells them to?

That's now how it works. That's now how any of this works.

The voting population is often stupid. We elected Bush TWICE. You cannot put your faith in uninformed voters, spin around three times and hope it works out. That's not how you win an election. That's now how you govern.

Sure, which is why my point is, we should actually be spending more time educating people who may not know anything, than mocking the people who do know things and are trying to tell those know nothings to stop voting against their interests.

We already have enough of that with the conservative voting bloc, we don't need the only realistic portion of America that even comes anywhere close to trying to walk in the right direction doing it too. Cause then, we're walking in place.

 

[eBay Huckster]

We are just getting started

No, you really aren't.

Let me tell you what skills Obama had - aura, charisma, capability to seem down to Earth and outside the establishment.

"capability to seem [...] outside the establishment", in spite of the fact that he was as close to 'establishment' as you could get for a first-term Senator, was actually further to the right in voting record than Clinton has ever been, and - hang on a minute - had the support of massive donors and a significant portion of the Democratic establishment going into Q4 2007.

 

[Jeevesmeister]

The voting population is often stupid. We elected Bush TWICE. You cannot put your faith in uninformed voters, spin around three times and hope it works out. That's not how you win an election. That's now how you govern.

And by giving Hillary the primary you're putting their faith in them just as well. Her failures as a leftist, her being a woman, her fuckups as Secretary of State, praying nothing turns up in the e-mail server fuckup that already paints her as a criminal at worst, at best an incompetent, and riding a very rickety roller coaster hoping you don't fall off on the road to the White House is a fool's errand.

 

[Inuhanyou]

When you look at the TARP as a whole and the economy now as opposed to 2008. I think voting against it was nearly a disaster. It just shows a willing to sacrifice everything in the pursuit of perfection or purity while jeopardizing everything.

That's ridiculous. A few safeguards in place instead of free reign is perfectly reasonable. It seems like certain people just want to defend mediocrity to my eyes, instead of calling it what it is, shilling.

How much money did the goverment get back from TARP? 50 billion or so? Oh right, how much did the banks get? OVER 16 TRILLION WITHOUT INTEREST? And they are still doing what they did before the crash that got us into it, so that another crash is perfectly possible!? Yes, we really just trying to get that 'perfect bill'. More like a decent one to begin with.

 

[eBay Huckster]

And by giving Hillary the primary you're putting their faith in them just as well. Her failures as a leftist, her being a woman, her fuckups as Secretary of State, praying nothing turns up in the e-mail server fuckup that already paints her as a criminal at worst, at best an incompetent, and riding a very rickety roller coaster hoping you don't fall off on the road to the White House is a fool's errand.

Given that all of these, repeated en masse anywhere from 6 months to 3 years, have resulted in her still leading anyone in general election matchups by "Hope and Change"-era Obama-esque margins...

Yeah, sure is a fool's errand in here.

I hope I don't have to explain why the first two things are functionally irrelevant to an argument that supporting Hillary Clinton for a general-election campaign (that, by definition, includes more than leftists) is a fool's errand.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

That's ridiculous. A few safeguards in place instead of free reign is perfectly reasonable. It seems like certain people just want to defend mediocrity to my eyes, instead of calling it what it is, shilling.

How much money did the goverment get back from TARP? 50 billion or so? Oh right, how much did the banks get? OVER 16 TRILLION WITHOUT INTEREST? And they are still doing what they did before the crash that got us into it, so that another crash is perfectly possible!? Yes, we really just trying to get that 'perfect bill'. More like a decent one to begin with.

What??

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

That's ridiculous. A few safeguards in place instead of free reign is perfectly reasonable. It seems like certain people just want to defend mediocrity to my eyes, instead of calling it what it is, shilling.

How much money did the goverment get back from TARP? 50 billion or so? Oh right, how much did the banks get? OVER 16 TRILLION WITHOUT INTEREST? And they are still doing what they did before the crash that got us into it, so that another crash is perfectly possible!? Yes, we really just trying to get that 'perfect bill'. More like a decent one to begin with.

I'm sorry but nothing in this post seems coherent to me. Where are you getting these numbers from?

 

[eBay Huckster]

How much money did the goverment get back from TARP? 50 billion or so?

How much did the government get back from TARP? 50 billion net from a disbursement of $427.1 billion, implying the government actually received $477 billion?

Oh right, how much did the banks get? OVER 16 TRILLION WITHOUT INTEREST?

Did they, now?

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

Turning a 50 billion profit in 7 years is bad business now? Where can I get that kind of return.

 

[DarkFlow]

I'm sorry but nothing in this post seems coherent to me. Where are you getting these numbers from?

His ass. You're talking to Bernie stan #1 around here.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

It's part cold war, part cultural identity of working hard to achieve the "American Dream".

You know who I feel sorry for? Your sociologists and anthropologists because they fucked up, for this to still be the case. Countless scientific papers all over the world show that people don't escape their cast. It's like winning the lottery to get out.

But it's not like it is against the norm for people to vote against their own best interest. In my country we just elected a right wing party bipartisan with a racist national party. Throwing out the muslims is alive and well in Scandinavia.

 

[User 463088]

And by giving Hillary the primary you're putting their faith in them just as well. Her failures as a leftist, her being a woman, her fuckups as Secretary of State, praying nothing turns up in the e-mail server fuckup that already paints her as a criminal at worst, at best an incompetent, and riding a very rickety roller coaster hoping you don't fall off on the road to the White House is a fool's errand.

I'm giving her nothing. I'm expecting her to campaign and win a primary. I'm expecting her to get a majority of Democrats to support her.

Her gender has absolutely nothing to do with my support for her.

Her tenure at State was not a fuckup. She was the most widely traveled Secretary of State. She put women's issues at the forefront. She was a solid Secretary of State. The fact that you have called her a criminal, when there's nothing at all to suggest that's even remotely the truth, is telling. However, in Bernieland, perhaps repeating something over and over makes it true? (Kidding!)

But, yes, I think it's a total fools errand to support a former First Lady, a former Senator, a former Secretary of State, a candidate who is leading the Dem field by 20-30% points, who leads the members of the GOP clown car, who has the baking of the party, 300 Democratic endorsements, name recognition, and a huge fund raising advantage over her primary opponents.

 

[Flo_Evans]

bernieis45? I could definitely see that.

Bernie is no Obama. Obama could end the Democratic Primary tomorrow if he wanted to by endorsing Clinton but he won't for obvious reasons.

No where to go but down!

 

[Jeevesmeister]

All right. Your argument is that you know more about how elections will play out than me and the entire Democratic Party, because you're just pretty sure. Must be nice!

And your argument is that you can hack together some statistics to loosely back up a worldview that pretends the Democratic party hasn't been fucking up time and time again without a crutch like Obama to carry them.

If you have specific critiques of Hillary's policy proposals and why you think they're too right-wing, I'm happy to debate them. If all you've got is "Hillary's a Republican," you're wasting my time.

I just stated how Hillary's college plan has its roots in No Child Left Behind, making federal funding reliant on what are still unknown metrics that will gut faculty independence, and the oversight necessary for this will create demand for even more technocratic admin roles which are already driving up college costs through the roof. Ransoming independence for money colleges have been starved of is somehow a progressive policy in 2015? Get the hell out of here.

Nobody is disputing the fact Hillary is a Republican in sheep's clothing, she just isn't running in the batshit ratrace the modern Republican party has become so that somehow makes it different. It's half of why the Left is far from rallying behind her.

 

[eBay Huckster]

And your argument is that you can hack together some statistics to loosely back up a worldview

Right: his argument is actually an argument, logically consistent and backed up by something other than his own words on a message board. Is that a bad thing? Is yours somehow functionally superior, and if so, how?

 

[DarkFlow]

And your argument is that you can hack together some statistics to loosely back up a worldview that pretends the Democratic party hasn't been fucking up time and time again without a crutch like Obama to carry them.



I just stated how Hillary's college plan has its roots in No Child Left Behind, making federal funding reliant on what are still unknown metrics that will gut faculty independence, and the oversight necessary for this will create demand for even more technocratic admin roles which are already driving up college costs through the roof. Ransoming independence for money colleges have been starved of is somehow a progressive policy in 2015? Get the hell out of here.

Nobody is disputing the fact Hillary is a Republican in sheep's clothing, she just isn't running in the batshit ratrace the modern Republican party has become so that somehow makes it different. It's half of why the Left is far from rallying behind her.

I'm going to need some sources for the shit you spew.

 

[ErasureAcer]

Bernie outpacing Dean. Same level of support nationally(30%) 4 months before Dean ever accomplished that. Bernie has gone to the South(and will return) while Dean just talked about it.

 

[Jeevesmeister]

I'm giving her nothing. I'm expecting her to campaign and win a primary. I'm expecting her to get a majority of Democrats to support her.

It didn't work out in '08 when she went all out against Obama, even leaking photos of him in traditional Somali garb to seed the original Birther myth, it's not a guarantee here. Very few are actually excited to vote for her, we're relying on the Left having a gun to their head trying to avoid another Republican president.

Her tenure at State was not a fuckup. She was the most widely traveled Secretary of State. She put women's issues at the forefront. She was a solid Secretary of State. The fact that you have called her a criminal, when there's nothing at all to suggest that's even remotely the truth, is telling. However, in Bernieland, perhaps repeating something over and over makes it true? (Kidding!)

She compromised top secret data and if you're so sure of yourself then how in the hell has Kerry, in half the time, had a much more successful tenure than Hillary, who accomplished hardly anything?

But, yes, I think it's a total fools errand to support a former First Lady, a former Senator, a former Secretary of State, a candidate who is leading the Dem field by 20-30% points, who leads the members of the GOP clown car, who has the baking of the party, 300 Democratic endorsements, name recognition, and a huge fund raising advantage over her primary opponents.

A resume of a bunch of titles and very few if any worthy achievements. She only leads Trump by a less than 10 percent margin. Sanders made a 10% gain in a month and the first primary is still 6 months away. The Democratic leadership has proven themselves incompetent outside of a miracle like Obama. She's an elephant that needs to be put to pasture so the party can move on and serve the needs of its people again.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

She only leads Trump by a less than 10 percent margin.

How's Sanders doing?

 

[eBay Huckster]

It didn't work out in '08 when she went all out against Obama

It "didn't work out" (you may want to check out that popular vote again) against literally the greatest campaign in modern history slightly to her right, so therefore it won't - nay, CAN'T - work out against an underfunded self-described socialist with objectively bad policy positions on immigration and trade.

Uh-huh.

A resume of a bunch of titles and very few if any worthy achievements. She only leads Trump by a less than 10 percent margin. Sanders made a 10% gain in a month and the first primary is still 6 months away. The Democratic leadership has proven themselves incompetent outside of a miracle like Obama. She's an elephant that needs to be put to pasture so the party can move on and serve the needs of its people again.

lol jesus christ

 

[Jeevesmeister]

Right: his argument is actually an argument, logically consistent and backed up by something other than his own words on a message board. Is that a bad thing? Is yours somehow functionally superior, and if so, how?

And twisting statistics is somehow acceptable? Are you serious with this? It's a bad thing because it's an argument built on flimsy logic. We're still far from the actual elections here.

I'm going to need some sources for the shit you spew.

Read 'em and weep.

 

[dr3upmushroom]

Is the hatred for socialism a residue of Cold War propaganda or is it just fundamentally clashing with the American belief in "individual responsibility"?
(Never mind that that philosophy seldom applies to powerful corporate criminals in the US)

America has always had a negative attitude towards socialism. I'm actually curious how America's feeling were towards socialism under FDR, and to a lesser extend LBJ.

 

[DarkFlow]

And twisting statistics is somehow acceptable? Are you serious with this? It's a bad thing because it's an argument built on flimsy logic. We're still far from the actual elections here.



Read 'em and weep.

Do you have a non conservative web site to give me?

In the United States elections, 2010 CFIF spent $2.5 million supporting Republican candidates, and in the United States elections, 2012 it spent $1.9 million

 

[eBay Huckster]

And twisting statistics is somehow acceptable?

How exactly are they being "twisted?" BLM objectively has higher favorables than Sanders, with similar name recognition, even among the Democratic Party, and that's not the only statistic pigeon has cited.

 

[Fenderputty]

Nobody is disputing the fact Hillary is a Republican in sheep's clothing, she just isn't running in the batshit ratrace the modern Republican party has become so that somehow makes it different. It's half of why the Left is far from rallying behind her.

Actually every rational person in this thread is disputing this fact.

 

[User 463088]

It didn't work out in '08 when she went all out against Obama, even leaking photos of him in traditional Somali garb to seed the original Birther myth, it's not a guarantee here. Very few are actually excited to vote for her, we're relying on the Left having a gun to their head trying to avoid another Republican president.



She compromised top secret data and if you're so sure of yourself then how in the hell has Kerry, in half the time, had a much more successful tenure than Hillary, who accomplished hardly anything?



A resume of a bunch of titles and very few if any worthy achievements. She only leads Trump by a less than 10 percent margin. Sanders made a 10% gain in a month and the first primary is still 6 months away. The Democratic leadership has proven themselves incompetent outside of a miracle like Obama. She's an elephant that needs to be put to pasture so the party can move on and serve the needs of its people again.

You're trolling, right?

Please tell me there aren't members of the Democratic party who think this way. Or maybe, you're like Sanders and not really a Democrat except when it provides a platform for whatever it is he wants to say.

 

[Jeevesmeister]

It "didn't work out" (you may want to check out that popular vote again) against literally the greatest campaign in modern history slightly to her right, so therefore it won't - nay, CAN'T - work out against an underfunded self-described socialist with objectively bad policy positions on immigration and trade.

That campaign brought in a shit ton of outside people and experts from all across the board, and now they're all in the private sector.

lol jesus christ

I'm not wrong. She has a great deal of political influence and has accomplished rather little of worth in those seats.

 

[DarkFlow]

You're trolling, right?

Please tell me there aren't members of the Democratic party who think this way. Or maybe, you're like Sanders and not really a Democrat except when it provides a platform for whatever it is he wants to say.

He's a conservative judging by his sources.

 

[Hazmat]

That's ridiculous. A few safeguards in place instead of free reign is perfectly reasonable. It seems like certain people just want to defend mediocrity to my eyes, instead of calling it what it is, shilling.

How much money did the goverment get back from TARP? 50 billion or so? Oh right, how much did the banks get? OVER 16 TRILLION WITHOUT INTEREST? And they are still doing what they did before the crash that got us into it, so that another crash is perfectly possible!? Yes, we really just trying to get that 'perfect bill'. More like a decent one to begin with.

Where are you getting that number from? Are you implying that the entire US debt came from the bailout?

 

[OnPoint]

Bernie has won me over. No joke.

 

[Jeevesmeister]

Do you have a non conservative web site to give me?

Are you that afraid of reading an actual argument outside of your accepted worldview? NCLB was a colossal failure initiated by Bush 43 on nearly every level. Hillary's college plan is a complete nightmare that compromises faculity independence and pours money into more and more administrations.

How exactly are they being "twisted?" BLM objectively has higher favorables than Sanders, with similar name recognition, even among the Democratic Party, and that's not the only statistic pigeon has cited.

A loosely defined, decentralized movement to get cops to stop killing black kids that's been in the news for the past year against an old white guy few have really heard of running for President. "Favorable" is such a flimsy goddamn definition to even roll with here.

 

[Goodstyle]

God damn, the hate for Bernie from a few vocal members ITT is strong

It doesn't seem like they "hate" Bernie, it's more that they are making logical points and bringing up legitimate concerns about his adequacy as a candidate.

The guys who seem to be more driven by hatred are the ones bringing up this inane "Republican in Democrat clothing" rhetoric for Hillary.

 

[Jeevesmeister]

Actually every rational person in this thread is disputing this fact.

Again with the condescending bullshit. For fuck's sake, this is a woman who forwarded mass incarceration and back in '92 had her husband suspend his campaign to execute a mentally ill black man - while supporting every American military excursion as long as she's had a voice - and you still consider her a leftist? Christ.

 

[Good Job Bob]

America has always had a negative attitude towards socialism. I'm actually curious how America's feeling were towards socialism under FDR, and to a lesser extend LBJ.

Here's a solid book on this subject:

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

It doesn't seem like they "hate" Bernie, it's more that they are making logical points and bringing up legitimate concerns about his adequacy as a candidate.

The guys who seem to be more driven by hatred are the ones bringing up this inane "Republican in Democrat clothing" rhetoric for Hillary.

What does this even mean? Many American socalled democrats- would pass as right wing in most European countries. In the US you have democrats who are voting to cut food stamp programs. Pathetic.

Being a republican is not a scorn, only the current republican party is. progressive republicans and moderate democrats can come together on a whole host of issues and make their own party.
Also because the republican party of today looks nothing like the one from pre-reagan.

 

[Jeevesmeister]

Or better yet, let's all just forget the fact Hillary rallied for America's involvement in Libya under faulty premises and bad info. That's from Jacobin for those mad I don't pull sources from the appropriately politically aligned websites.

 

[lednerg]

https://youtu.be/Vabeos-F8Kk

https://youtu.be/xIJS_dxNyak

Bernie's been real with it since day one. Fuck political "pragmatism". Fuck "it's her turn". Fuck a candidate who shifts her principles once something becomes politically prudent.

http://theweek.com/articles/567774/hillary-clinton-needs-address-racist-undertones-2008-campaign

"No, I won't yield."

That's my dude.

EDIT: Here he is in a house in Louisiana:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q33V4UF4HI

 

[Tenck]

I think the debates in October are going to help Bernie explode a hell of a lot more than he already has. His sincerity is captivating.

I do wonder how the mainstream media will paint him, seeing as he's very recently and vocally called them the fuck out.

Thanks for linking that vid. Just watching it gets me excited for the possibility of Bernie being our next president. I want him to keep gaining support.

 

[eBay Huckster]

That campaign brought in a shit ton of outside people and experts from all across the board, and now they're all in the private sector.

I mean, aside from the fact that that campaign apparatus is now 100% hers and the fact that the architect of that campaign, Jim Messina, is co-chairing her SuperPAC... sure, why not?

I'm not wrong. She has a great deal of political influence and has accomplished rather little of worth in those seats.

She has a great deal of political influence and also happened to deal with the Congressional implosion of her party one year into her husband's tenure as President, from which it didn't recover until she was already running in the 2008 campaign. You'll have to pardon me if this argument doesn't hold much weight with me (aside from her SoS tenure, which is either "weak" or "still too early to tell")

A loosely defined, decentralized movement to get cops to stop killing black kids that's been in the news for the past year against an old white guy few have really heard of running for President. "Favorable" is such a flimsy goddamn definition to even roll with here.

A loosely-defined movement against a loosely-defined candidate. Sounds like a valid, if possibly disingenuous, comparison to make, but then what do I know? I'm not paranoid of secret Republicans hiding in my union meetings and bugging my phones.

For fuck's sake, this is a woman who forwarded mass incarceration and back in '92 had her husband suspend his campaign to execute a mentally ill black man - while supporting every American military excursion as long as she's had a voice - and you still consider her a leftist?

I'm pretty sure you can consider Clinton "not a Republican" and simultaneously consider her "not a Dyed in the Wool True Communist Believer". Difficult, I know.

 

[Inuhanyou]

I'm sorry but nothing in this post seems coherent to me. Where are you getting these numbers from?

That is what the audit of the FED showed the loans the banks accumulated from the government in total over a number of years.

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/GAO Fed Investigation.pdf

Only Sanders and Paul received the documents as they were the Primary auditors.

If you want to discredit the documents, you'll have to look at them and judge for yourself.

Where are you getting that number from? Are you implying that the entire US debt came from the bailout?

No because they are faulty loans. It has nothing to do with anyone paying anything legitimately or showing the tab.

It doesn't seem like they "hate" Bernie, it's more that they are making logical points and bringing up legitimate concerns about his adequacy as a candidate.

The guys who seem to be more driven by hatred are the ones bringing up this inane "Republican in Democrat clothing" rhetoric for Hillary.

I think we should all step back a minute and think about these claims flying around. Circle back to the base point.

Hillary is represented by the old guard, and corporations and won't change a thing in office unless it benefits them. And she will pander to any group who gets her the presidency. This is where the anti Hillary people are coming from.

Can you blame them based on Hillary's past record? Her record is not something one can twist, its out there, and how she is funding her campaign, as well as how she has actd in the past is not something debatable.

For pro Bernie supporters, he has had a consistent message for the entirety of his career and it resonates directly with the common person in regards to equal opportunity.

So besides making claims about who is 'more qualified' for the Presidency based on name recognition or money, we should be looking at the actual issues that we claim to support and who best represents those.

And in my opinion, Bernie is that person. So i don't see how anyone can actually argue that.

 

[DarkFlow]

Are you that afraid of reading an actual argument outside of your accepted worldview? NCLB was a colossal failure initiated by Bush 43 on nearly every level. Hillary's college plan is a complete nightmare that compromises faculity independence and pours money into more and more administrations.



A loosely defined, decentralized movement to get cops to stop killing black kids that's been in the news for the past year against an old white guy few have really heard of running for President. "Favorable" is such a flimsy goddamn definition to even roll with here.

No, but I'm not going to take your word over one source. I like to read both sides. Trust me, my accepted world view is rather to the right of most of gaf it seems.

 

[eBay Huckster]

That is what the audit of the FED showed the loans the banks accumulated from the government in total over a number of years.

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/GAO Fed Investigation.pdf

Only Sanders and Paul received the documents as they were the Primary auditors.

If you want to discredit the documents, you'll have to look at them and judge for yourself.

They're not trying to discredit the documents, they're taking umbrage with your characterization of TARP as "giving $16 trillion in loans to banks without interest".

From the same report:

That balance was never more than about a $1 trillion net liability at any given time, and it's been more or less entirely repaid since 2011.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

That is what the audit of the FED showed the loans the banks accumulated from the government in total over a number of years.

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/GAO Fed Investigation.pdf

Only Sanders and Paul received the documents as they were the Primary auditors.

If you want to discredit the documents, you'll have to look at them and judge for yourself.



No because they are faulty loans. It has nothing to do with anyone paying anything legitimately or showing the tab.

What the Federal Reserve does is in an entirely different universe. You're mixing fiscal and monetary policy into one big confusing mess.

 

[Flo_Evans]

It didn't work out in '08 when she went all out against Obama, even leaking photos of him in traditional Somali garb to seed the original Birther myth, it's not a guarantee here. Very few are actually excited to vote for her, we're relying on the Left having a gun to their head trying to avoid another Republican president.



She compromised top secret data and if you're so sure of yourself then how in the hell has Kerry, in half the time, had a much more successful tenure than Hillary, who accomplished hardly anything?



A resume of a bunch of titles and very few if any worthy achievements. She only leads Trump by a less than 10 percent margin. Sanders made a 10% gain in a month and the first primary is still 6 months away. The Democratic leadership has proven themselves incompetent outside of a miracle like Obama. She's an elephant that needs to be put to pasture so the party can move on and serve the needs of its people again.

I admire your enthusiasm but:

I do agree with your point on lots of titles and nothing to show. She is not going to move the needle at all IMHO, she wants the title of 1st woman president and doesn't really care what she has to do (or not do) to get it.

 

[Jeevesmeister]

I mean, aside from the fact that that campaign apparatus is now 100% hers and the fact that the architect of that campaign, Jim Messina, is co-chairing her SuperPAC... sure, why not?

Yeah, and they've been doing so well with Snapchat jokes, "Yaasss" merch, and "tell us how student loan debt makes you feel in 3 emojis or less!" - are you kidding me?

She has a great deal of political influence and also happened to deal with the Congressional implosion of her party one year into her husband's tenure as President, from which it didn't recover until she was already running in the 2008 campaign.

Right, and that's done so much during the Republican war on women.

A loosely-defined movement against a loosely-defined candidate. Neat!

Oh that's not even a response and you know it.

I'm pretty sure you can consider Clinton "not a Republican" and simultaneously consider her "not a Dyed in the Wool True Communist Believer". Difficult, I know.

She's not a mainstream Republican party Republican. But outside of that shitshow she skews very, very much to the Right. Sorry that's so hard to understand looking at her record and her policies.

 

[Jeevesmeister]

No, but I'm not going to take your word over one source. I like to read both sides. Trust me, my accepted world view is rather to the right of most of gaf it seems.

You can read it on her Medium post. None of it contradicts what I said earlier, in fact what I pointed out is based on her very words.