Support NeoGAF

[Ralemont]

None of those involve playing as a body double.

Solid Snake is by definition a body double.

Regardless, I can understand the disappointment that we aren't BB, but I guess it interests me more than it disappoints me.

 

[SkylineRKR]

That makes even less sense. I desperately hope this one is just someone screwing around with the spoilers we already have and putting it into the wrong context, because how do you explain Snake still killing the real Big Boss in Zanzibar that is still in the timeline? If he was good the whole time and didn't intend for the events of the first game why would he go on to repeat them and express guilt at the end of MGS4?

He wasn't good. But his body double went rogue.

 

[Van Owen]

I can't believe the MG1 stuff is true.

In MGS4 Big Boss says he never thought of Snake as a son, but always respected him as a solider and shit, but really he had no interaction with him until the end of Metal Gear 2?

Makes no sense, even for Kojima.

 

[KOMANI]

The bad one was i edited out.

It was that bad, huh?

 

[BiGBoSSMk23]

I love a lot of Metal Gear plot twists.

But the fact that we are not playing as the real Big Boss but instead a nobody in the final game of the franchise, the game that was supposed to show us Big Boss descending into his own personal hell, is too much to take.

And no, I don't swallow the excuse of "Big Boss working in the shadows make him just as evil!", that's just mental gymnastics. I wanted this story to be personal. I wanted to PLAY as Big Boss as he fell into madness.

It also wouldn't be as bad if not for that final statement that Big Boss was a fake in the original Metal Gear.

So do you prefer a cookie cutter motherfucker villain as opposed to an ambiguous circumstantial antagonist?

You really are safe as moist.

Spoiler

it's dumb, but I like that it keeps with the theme of there not being an enemy in absolute terms. Big Boss doesn't have to be a pure villain in the end.

 

[Boke1879]

Nowhere near the same. In this game we were expecting to play as Big Boss on his final descent to madness. What we were given in exchange is pure bullshit.

Yea and I was expecting to play as Snake for the entirety of MGS2. I was fooled by false scenes of Snake literally in the Tanker.

We still get Big Boss final descent. Literally using his most trusted soldier and manipulating him.

You're just upset it didn't play out like you wanted.

 

[Xiraiya]

That makes even less sense. I desperately hope this one is just someone screwing around with the spoilers we already have and putting it into the wrong context, because how do you explain Snake still killing the real Big Boss in Zanzibar that is still in the timeline? If he was good the whole time and didn't intend for the events of the first game why would he go on to repeat them and express guilt at the end of MGS4?

Regardless of anything else, Big Boss has always wanted a world that ran on combat, he wanted a world where people like him would always have purpose as they know nothing else.

Wanting that doesn't make him "evil" per say.

 

[KOMANI]

I can't believe the MG1 stuff is true.

In MGS4 Big Boss says he never thought of Snake as a son, but always respected him as a solider and shit, but really he had no interaction with him until the end of Metal Gear 2?

Makes no sense, even for Kojima.

He trains him, and is his commander. HE sends Snake to kill MG1 Big Boss.

 

[Boke1879]

I can't believe the MG1 stuff is true.

In MGS4 Big Boss says he never thought of Snake as a son, but always respected him as a solider and shit, but really he had no interaction with him until the end of Metal Gear 2?

Makes no sense, even for Kojima.

Big Boss was still his commanding officer

 

[Ishida]

Yea and I was expecting to play as Snake for the entirety of MGS2. I was fooled by false scenes of Snake literally in the Tanker.

We still get Big Boss final descent. Literally using his most trusted soldier and manipulating him.

You're just upset it didn't play out like you wanted.

Yeah, that's pretty boring compared to actually doing stuff in the battlefield.

 

[shocky2002]

I woulda liked to see how he would've managed to ruin Silent Hills too

 

[The Silver]

MG1 and 2 were barely canon to begin with and Kojima said from the start he was not gonna be shy about retcons, small(ish) details from those games never meant shit.

Spoiler

Im in full watching the world burn mode

 

[Sub_Level]

Yeah, I don't see how Big Boss is "evil"

I don't understand why Kojima wanted to paint him that way to begin with MGSV. The idea that Big Boss was fighting against a global Illuminati and Solid inadvertently murdered the opposition of the Patriots in MG1 and 2 is more interesting than turning it into a black and white, good vs evil.

I don't see how Zero or that global Illuminati are evil either.

The Patriots wanted to propagate themselves through war in order to maintain their control of humanity, afraid people would lose their way in the overabundance of information.

What did Big Boss and Liquid want to do? Propagate war itself so soldiers would be valued.

 

[KOMANI]

Also, it's weird that Hayter isn't a part of this now when it kinda would've made sense to have him in it.

It made sense to have him voice Solidus. "THEY" never really liked Hayter. They tried to replace him on MGS 2 (source: Jennifer Hale on the codec)

 

[Detective]

Medic from Ground Zeroes cutscene.
BB is Ishmael
Venom is medic. He's made a body double for BB
SF is not BB
GZ was true Big Boss.

GZ did actually happen, it put them in hospital where they planned to create a body double for BB since everyone wanted BB dead. Zero was in on the ruse too, as were Miller and Ocelot. The raid on the hospital was staged, so that Venom Snake was put in a situation immediately.

Venom/Medic controlled Outer Heaven. Real Big Boss gave Solid Snake the order to assassinate him.

Say whaaaaaaaaaaaat?
So who was in peace walker?
So the player in PP is a double? Dos he know?
Why is miller on this too?
So Real BB only appeared on MGS 3?

Appreciate your feedback bro

 

[Tookay]

Words that kill

...my hype for the story.

 

[Boke1879]

MG1 and 2 were barely canon to begin with and Kojima said from the start he was not gonna be shy about retcons, small(ish) details from those games never meant shit.

Spoiler

Im in full watching the world burn mode

I'm loving this. people are really this pissed. Man I would have loved to have been around for the Raiden reveal. But we know how that played out.

The franchise isn't ruined. This is just what the story is.

 

[SkylineRKR]

Yeah, that's pretty boring compared to actually doing stuff in the battlefield.

In the game he had to save people and kill bad guys. I think a descent is hard to put into a game unless you make Big Boss do really nasty shit making it a whole different game.

 

[Venom Fox]

I don't get how MGS3 got ruined, PW story already sucked who cares about that.

and MGS4 doesn't really do anything to MGS1

MGS3 was wrecked by the whole Codetalker created the Cobra unit.

 

[Xiraiya]

Nowhere near the same. In this game we were expecting to play as Big Boss on his final descent to madness. What we were given in exchange is pure bullshit.

If you were "expecting" to play as the real Big Boss from the beginning.
Remember the basics of listening.

 

[Fehyd]

I think I actually prefer the idea that

Spoiler

Venom is the player, and the player was"medic" more than "medic" being some unnamed soldier.

I love the 4th wall implications of that.

I also love the retcon. People really need to stop holding almost 30 year old games as gospel.

 

[KOMANI]

Say whaaaaaaaaaaaat?
So who was in peace walker?
So the player in PP is a double? Dos he know?
Why is miller on this too?
So Real BB only appeared on MGS 3?

Appreciate your feedback bro

You're like the worst Detective 😜

 

[Ishida]

In the game he had to save people and kill bad guys. I think a descent is hard to put into a game unless you make Big Boss do really nasty shit making it a whole different game.

That's exactly what would have been cooler.

 

[Ralemont]

Say whaaaaaaaaaaaat?
So who was in peace walker?
So the player in PP is a double? Dos he know?
Why is miller on this too?
So Real BB only appeared on MGS 3?

Appreciate your feedback bro

Switch happens after GZ, before PP, in the big gap.

Miller is presumably in on it because it allows them to rebuild their military nation while protecting Big Boss, his friend.

 

[Supermanisdead]

this is fucking incredible. kojima you goddamn genius.

 

[Roxas]

He trains him, and is his commander. HE sends Snake to kill MG1 Big Boss.

But at the end of MG1, Fake Big Boss tells Solid Snake that he was the one who sent him on the mission...

 

[snake_eater_raiden]

That makes even less sense. I desperately hope this one is just someone screwing around with the spoilers we already have and putting it into the wrong context, because how do you explain Snake still killing the real Big Boss in Zanzibar that is still in the timeline? If he was good the whole time and didn't intend for the events of the first game why would he go on to repeat them and express guilt at the end of MGS4?

I am with you on this one. I sense bullshit on this.

If Kojima retcons MG1, it retcons the entire series.

1. Big Boss states explicitly in MGS4, that Solid killed him twice and today will mark the 3rd.
2. Outer Heaven was found in retaliation to the Patriots. Venom Snake has nothing against the Patriots nor the Patriots against him. Story wise it does not make any sense. The so called leak is weakened by the following: If in the tape Venom Snake learns about the truth why would he go ahead and finalize Big Boss's vision of Outer Heaven? He would never do that after learning he has been played by Big Boss.
3. It makes zero sense for Big Boss to send SS to kill VS in Metal Gear. He could have done it himself.

I think this leak is bullshit.

 

[SkylineRKR]

Say whaaaaaaaaaaaat?
So who was in peace walker?
So the player in PP is a double? Dos he know?
Why is miller on this too?
So Real BB only appeared on MGS 3?

Appreciate your feedback bro

BB is still 3, PW and Ground Zeroes.

You're just not playing as him in Phantom Pain. Note, The Phantom is what they ultimately call Venom Snake.

He doesn't know. This is important as he will know it at some point, and things go awry from there.

 

[Boke1879]

MGS3 was wrecked by the whole Codetalker created the Cobra unit.

So? The Cobra unit was boring as fuck. There still hasn't been a good Boss Unit other than FoxHound

 

[HalfBakedProphet]

I don't see how Zero or that global Illuminati are evil either.

The Patriots wanted to propagate themselves through war in order to maintain their control of humanity, afraid people would lose their way in the overabundance of information.

What did Big Boss and Liquid want to do? Propagate war itself so soldiers would be valued.

I agree. They both wanted to carry on and make the Boss' ideals a reality, they just had different ideas of how to do it.

 

[Fehyd]

But at the end of MG1, Fake Big Boss tells Solid Snake that he was the one who sent him on the mission...

Didn't Kojima say there was going to be some inconsistencies since he wouldn't be going back and fixing things in other games?

Either way, its proof that we should take MG1 and MG2 as soft canon, rather than hard canon atm.

 

[SkylineRKR]

MGS3 was wrecked by the whole Codetalker created the Cobra unit.

I think thats fine. I thought those guys blowing up etc was odd and they had zero personality anyway. No we know it were parasites.

 

[Boke1879]

I am with you on this one. I sense bullshit on this.

If Kojima retcons MG1, it retcons the entire series.

1. Big Boss states explicitly in MGS4, that Solid killed him twice and today will mark the 3rd.
2. Outer Heaven was found in retaliation to the Patriots. Venom Snake has nothing against the Patriots nor the Patriots against him. Story wise it does not make any sense. The so called leak is weakened by the following: If in the tape Venom Snake learns about the truth why would he go ahead and finalize Big Boss's vision of Outer Heaven? He would never do that after learning he has been played by Big Boss.
3. It makes zero sense for Big Boss to send SS to kill VS in Metal Gear. He could have done it himself.

I think this leak is bullshit.

You can imply that BB mean metaphorically Snake killed him twice.

Of course it retcons it but Kojima has been doing that to the series since MGS3

 

[The Silver]

MGS3 was wrecked by the whole Codetalker created the Cobra unit.

How does that change anything? They were hardly characters in the MGS3 in the furst place and now we know the origin of their superpowers. Sorrow is still supernatural, Pain is still Beeman, End is still an old fart.

How does that extend to ruining the entire game?

 

[KOMANI]

I am with you on this one. I sense bullshit on this.

If Kojima retcons MG1, it retcons the entire series.

1. Big Boss states explicitly in MGS4, that Solid killed him twice and today will mark the 3rd.
2. Outer Heaven was found in retaliation to the Patriots. Venom Snake has nothing against the Patriots nor the Patriots against him. Story wise it does not make any sense. The so called leak is weakened by the following: If in the tape Venom Snake learns about the truth why would he go ahead and finalize Big Boss's vision of Outer Heaven? He would never do that after learning he has been played by Big Boss.
3. It makes zero sense for Big Boss to send SS to kill VS in Metal Gear. He could have done it himself.

I think this leak is bullshit.

1.metaphorically
2. Since cipher had a hand in the body double ruse, then it's still doesn't change anything.
3. Why? What difference would it make. Why doesn't Kaz do it?

 

[AAMARMO]

The box art has changed again.

 

[Sumio Mondo]

He trains him, and is his commander. HE sends Snake to kill MG1 Big Boss.

If anything, this retcon makes more sense now. It was always silly how Big Boss at the end of MG1 appears and just goes "it was me all along, Snake, hahaha!" *evil mastermind strokes beard* and then just gets his ass kicked and then "killed" for the first time by Snake, only to resurface at the very end of MG2 with no apparent injuries despite being left for dead by Snake in Outer Heaven in MG1. Big Boss was foolish to out himself like that at the end of MG1 after training him up to beat him, it just made no sense to me. At least now, it makes more sense why Big Boss sent the guy in who he trained up, to cover his own tracks. If anything, it makes Big Boss more scheming/intelligent than before where he's essentially sending himself to a potential death and helping Snake to foil his own plans, which was just nonsense that made no damn sense.

 

[Van Owen]

He trains him, and is his commander. HE sends Snake to kill MG1 Big Boss.

Big Boss was still his commanding officer

Wouldn't he be in hiding? Or none of the soldiers in Outer Heaven think it's odd that their leader is also the commander of Fox Hound?

And how does any of this make Big Boss a good guy when he still tries to hold a nuclear gun to the world's head in MG2?

 

[Fehyd]

If anything, this retcon makes more sense now. It was always silly how Big Boss at the end of MG1 appears and just goes "it was me all along, Snake, hahaha!" *evil mastermind strokes beard* and then just gets his ass kicked and then "killed" for the first time by Snake, only to resurface at the very end of MG2 with no apparent injuries despite being left for dead by Snake in Outer Heaven in MG1. Big Boss was foolish to out himself like that at the end of MG1 after training him up to beat him, it just made no sense to me. At least now, it makes more sense why Big Boss sent the guy in who he trained up, to cover his own tracks. If anything, it makes Big Boss more scheming/intelligent than before wher ehe's essentially sending himself to a potential death and helping Snake to foil his own plans, which was just nonsense that made no damn sense.

Also somewhat ironic that MG1 atleast in its original form was always a "what a tweeeest!" as well.

 

[DevilFox]

edit

So? The Cobra unit was boring as fuck. There still hasn't been a good Boss Unit other than FoxHound

My heart can't take this.

 

[Dug]

If you were "expecting" to play as the real Big Boss from the beginning.
Remember the basics of listening.

The tape labelled "From The Man Who Sold The World" also kind of gave things away...

 

[Klyka]

Hahahahahaaha

The Phantom Pain

HAHAHAHAHA

THE PAIN OF THE PHANTOM


MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHHA

 

[DNAbro]

Kinda glad I have no attachment to the series cause that twist seems a bit silly. ah well, game should be tons of fun.

 

[Salaadin]

I think context is everything in leaks like this. It's best to just see these things play out naturally.

Personally, I'm for the idea. It's classic Kojima through and through. Undeniably so.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

It would be amazing if Kojima managed to fuck up this much with one throwaway sentence at the end of the game.

 

[Ishida]

How does that change anything? They were hardly characters in the MGS3 in the furst place and now we know the origin of their superpowers. Sorrow is still supernatural, Pain is still Beeman, End is still an old fart.

How does that extend to ruining the entire game?

Ironic that you, of all people, say that, considering how much you hated stuff being explained on MGS4:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=94939603&postcount=97

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=103754192&postcount=59

 

[Ralemont]

And how does any of this make Big Boss a good guy when he still tries to hold a nuclear gun to the world's head in MG2?

It doesn't.

 

[Boke1879]

I agree. They both wanted to carry on and make the Boss' ideals a reality, they just had different ideas of how to do it.

THe thing about the MG universe is no one is truly good or evil. Except maybe Liquid? Or Solidus?

If you think about it. By the time MGS4 comes around. Both BB and Zero's vision had some to fruiting.

Zero wanted a Unified world. He got that with the SOP system. BB wanted a world where there was constant battle. He got that with the War economy

 

[Fehyd]

Ironic that you, of all people, say that, considering how much you hated stuff being explained on MGS4:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=94939603&postcount=97

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=103754192&postcount=59

To be fair, that was over a year ago. People can change their opinions and views ;-)

 

[Van Owen]

Also, Big Boss's dialogue from MG2 hinges on him fighting Snake in MG1, and that this will be their final battle (because they've fought before) so it's retconning that too?