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[Venom Fox]

You are just saying what everybody knows. You are missing the point.

The two look and sound identical. Everybody believes both of them to be Big Boss. The two are active at different times, with VS being active during TPP and MG1 and NS being inactive from GZ all the way up until MG2.

They are both Big Boss. It is not incorrect to say Big Boss established Outer Heaven. VS continued to use the moniker after the events of TPP.

But Kojima has already made the distinction between Big Boss and Venom by calling Venom Big Boss's phantom.
So it is incorrect to say Big Boss established OH if it was Venom who did it.
I don't know, we will just have to wait and see what happens and see if Kojima clarifies it in the third ending?

Edit: The distinction is made in the timeline.

 

[Shauni]

What?

Big Boss is a title given by the US president.

Who received it? Naked Snake or the medic?

The medic is just impersonating the REAL Big Boss, you know, the man who actually earned the title?

I think the point he's getting at is that you're being obtuse by ignoring the obvious symbolic nature of the situation over a literal, matter-of-fact interpretation.

 

[Erigu]

Big Boss is a title given by the US president.
Who received it? Naked Snake or the medic?
The medic is just impersonating the REAL Big Boss, you know, the man who actually earned the title?

Kaiki would probably have something to say about your concepts of "fake" and "real"... ^^

 

[Ralemont]

But Kojima has already made the distinction between Big Boss and Venom by calling Venom Big Boss's phantom.
So it is incorrect to say Big Boss established OH if it was Venom who did it.

I don't know, we will just have to wait and see what happens and see if Kojima clarifies it in the third ending?

I agree here. Based on that timeline and the distinction that Snake killed Big Boss's phantom but saying BB establishes Outer Heaven, it sounds to me like BB is still responsible for OH's creation but that Venom is the figurehead doing the physical work there.

 

[Red Blaster]

What?

Big Boss is a title given by the US president.

Who received it? Naked Snake or the medic?

The medic is just impersonating the REAL Big Boss, you know, the man who actually earned the title?

stop taking it so literally

only three people know venom is a fake, while everyone else sees him as big boss

 

[Salaadin]

But Kojima has already made the distinction between Big Boss and Venom by calling Venom Big Boss's phantom.
So it is incorrect to say Big Boss established OH if it was Venom who did it.

I don't know, we will just have to wait and see what happens and see if Kojima clarifies it in the third ending?

Exactly.

The timeline clearly states that big boss created OH and that his phantom was the one who dies at the end. It makes the distinction for us.

 

[Venom Fox]

I agree here. Based on that timeline and the distinction that Snake killed Big Boss's phantom but saying BB establishes Outer Heaven, it sounds to me like BB is still responsible for OH's creation but that Venom is the figurehead doing the physical work there.

Yeah, that's what I think, Big Boss creates it and then Venom takes over while Big Boss plays his part in Foxhound.

 

[Ishida]

I think the point he's getting at is that you're being obtuse by ignoring the obvious symbolic nature of the situation over a literal, matter-of-fact interpretation.

Symbolic? How bullshit. Why not being direct in the definitions? Venom Snake is a fake Big Boss, I don't know why he's denying it.

If the president had a body double, would he also be president?

only three people know venom is a fake, while everyone else sees him as big boss

And that somehow makes him into the real Big Boss? lol.

 

[Shauni]

Symbolic? How bullshit. Why not being direct in the definitions? Venom Snake is a fake Big Boss, I don't know why he's denying it.

If the president had a body double, would he also be president?

*Shrug*

Well, there that is, I guess.

 

[AAMARMO]

MORE PROOF FROM MY SOURCE, THIS TIME OF ZERO'S FINAL VISIT TO BIG BOSS IN THE CYRPUS HOSPITAL!

This is a cassette tape log of Zero's visit to Big Boss and the Medic while they're comatose in the Cypriot hospital, where says his final goodbye, while also hinting at his plan to protect Big Boss and his infection by Skullface.

If you missed the updates on the real identities of Punished "Venom" Snake, Ishmael and how this effects the Metal Gear Solid lore and timeline, please click on the the link below:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=176569736&postcount=4355

Some of the timestamps are out of place.
12:51
12:53
12:56
12:57
12:59
13:00
13:02
13:03
12:41
12:43
12:45

 

[SictorVullivan]

When it comes to comas are we also counting the one post MG2 that goes through all the way to the end of MGS4? So if the one in early 1970 doesn't count then Big Boss has still been in 2 coma's. That of GZ to TPP and MG2 to MGS4.

 

[Fury451]

Death has never stopped anyone from dying in Metal Gear. It merely means you're gonna make a comeback at some point.

The kid that died in that crash could have been Chico's twin brother Mico who was born from Paz after she was implanted with Chico replica DNA. The vagina bomb thrust the baby out and was rescued by Ocelot who raised him in secret.

Even though I know you're joking, I didn't bat an eye at this being plausible, which says a lot lol

 

[Krabboss]

What?

Big Boss is a title given by the US president.

Who received it? Naked Snake or the medic?

The medic is just impersonating the REAL Big Boss, you know, the man who actually earned the title?

First let's address the fact that you seemed to have half-read a sentence which was telling you the first coma was a mistranslation.

Secondly, what does the US president have to do with anything? Nobody is saying the Big Boss in TPP is the one crowned by the pretend president of the pretend US. I am saying that if you were to put either of them in front of the pretend president, they would be indistinguishable if not for the significant head wound (which seems to have been removed by the time the events of MG1 occurred, besides).

Both of them call themselves Big Boss and the world believes both of them to be Big Boss. Venom Snake is 100% believed to be The Real Deal during the events of Metal Gear 1 for the MSX/Nintendo Entertainment System.

Do you understand the difference between reality and video games? Do you think that just because we understand VS isn't actually Big Boss that suddenly every person in the Metal Gear story will as well? The only people that know about it are Big Boss, the Medic, Kaz and Ocelot. Seemingly none of them told the world about the facade and the Real Big Boss seemed content to remain in hiding until MG2.

They're both Big Boss. The screenshot in question on page 93 is not contradictory. Also ask yourself how likely it is that somebody would make contradictory statements only a sentence apart.

 

[squadr0n]

Thanks everyone for the leaks. This is my favorite part of the process. Finally some real information is coming out and we have some answers. I was worried this game would just add more instead of syncing the story line together.

Is it confirmed that the only playable areas are Afghanistan, Africa, and MB? Ive heard their could be smaller one shot missions in areas like Russia but not sure. Im also curious what happened to Chico? He has to be someone we know about but after what happened in Ground Zeroes he would need a wheelchair or something to help him walk. For the longest time I thought Kaz was Chico in the trailers with the crutches.

 

[Ishida]

First let's address the fact that you seemed to have half-read a sentence which was telling you the first coma was a mistranslation.

Secondly, what does the US president have to do with anything? Nobody is saying the Big Boss in TPP is the one crowned by the pretend president of the pretend US. I am saying that if you were to put either of them in front of the pretend president, they would be indistinguishable if not for the significant head wound (which seems to have been removed by the time the events of MG1 occurred, besides).

Both of them call themselves Big Boss and the world believes both of them to be Big Boss. Venom Snake is 100% believed to be The Real Deal during the events of Metal Gear 1 for the MSX/Nintendo Entertainment System.

Do you understand the difference between reality and video games? Do you think that just because we understand VS isn't actually Big Boss that suddenly every person in the Metal Gear story will as well? The only people that know about it are Big Boss, the Medic, Kaz and Ocelot. Seemingly none of them told the world about the facade and the Real Big Boss seemed content to remain in hiding until MG2.

They're both Big Boss. The screenshot in question on page 93 is not contradictory. Also ask yourself how likely it is that somebody would make contradictory statements only a sentence apart.

Exactly, you finally get it. Only one of them is the real Big Boss. The other one is impersonating him, a body double.

The fact that Venom Snake is believed to be the real one does not make him the real one.

 

[Erigu]

Symbolic? How bullshit. Why not being direct in the definitions? Venom Snake is a fake Big Boss, I don't know why he's denying it.

If the president had a body double, would he also be president?

If he merely served as a target for enemy snipers, no.
If he actually exercised those presidential powers himself, that would be another matter and I think there would be room for argument...

 

[RK9039]

Some of the timestamps are out of place.
12:51
12:53
12:56
12:57
12:59
13:00
13:02
13:03
12:41
12:43
12:45

Well spotted, not sure what's going on here.

 

[Ishida]

If he merely served as a target for enemy snipers, no.
If he actually exercised those presidential powers himself, that would be another matter and I think there would be room for argument...

Even if he exercised the presidential powers he would still be a fake. Only one of them would officially be the president, the other would be an impostor.

 

[Krabboss]

Exactly, you finally get it. Only one of them is the real Big Boss. The other one is impersonating him, a body double.

The fact that Venom Snake is believed to be the real one does not make him the real one.

Do you also have a large chunk of metal lodged into your head?

 

[AAMARMO]

Well spotted, not sure what's going on here.

Also

 

[Venom Fox]

First let's address the fact that you seemed to have half-read a sentence which was telling you the first coma was a mistranslation.

Secondly, what does the US president have to do with anything? Nobody is saying the Big Boss in TPP is the one crowned by the pretend president of the pretend US. I am saying that if you were to put either of them in front of the pretend president, they would be indistinguishable if not for the significant head wound (which seems to have been removed by the time the events of MG1 occurred, besides).

Both of them call themselves Big Boss and the world believes both of them to be Big Boss. Venom Snake is 100% believed to be The Real Deal during the events of Metal Gear 1 for the MSX/Nintendo Entertainment System.

Do you understand the difference between reality and video games? Do you think that just because we understand VS isn't actually Big Boss that suddenly every person in the Metal Gear story will as well? The only people that know about it are Big Boss, the Medic, Kaz and Ocelot. Seemingly none of them told the world about the facade and the Real Big Boss seemed content to remain in hiding until MG2.

They're both Big Boss. The screenshot in question on page 93 is not contradictory. Also ask yourself how likely it is that somebody would make contradictory statements only a sentence apart.

Kojima Specifically stated that there was only one coma though, you can find this in the many interviews regarding MGSV'S plot.
Like I said, the timeline screen already makes the distinction between BB and Big Boss's phantom for us, it's not contradictory, it's a distinction between two characters.

 

[Ishida]

Do you also have a large chunk of metal lodged into your head?

It seems that you are getting pissed off for no reason if you have to resort to that sort of attitude. Chill out, this is a video game forum.

 

[Gbraga]

One question, was the tape just there for you to find, conveniently, like most gameplay tapes? The E3 trailer makes me think it's story related, so was it revealed to him because they wanted him working with them, while in the know, but it backfired?

 

[Red Blaster]

trying to explain basic postmodernism is harder than i thought

 

[Shauni]

Also

Just to be clear, are you trying to say you think these are maybe shopped?

 

[Krabboss]

Kojima Specifically stated that there was only one coma though, you can find this in the many interviews regarding MGSV'S plot.
Like I said, the timeline screen already makes the distinction between BB and Big Boss's phantom for us, it's not contradictory, it's a distinction between two characters.

I specifically referenced posts which specifically stated that the coma during Les Enfants Terribles was a mistranslation. In the original Klingon, he was not in a coma.

 

[Venom Fox]

Do you also have a large chunk of metal lodged into your head?

I don't think he does to be honest, he's perfectly right in what he's saying. Going off your logic that makes liquid and Solidus big boss, they share the same ideas, look exactly like the man, hell they even have 99.5% of the same DNA but that still doesn't make them Big Boss.

I specifically referenced posts which specifically stated that the coma during Les Enfants Terribles was a mistranslation. In the original Klingon, he was not in a coma.

Ah ok, but still he wasn't only in a coma once as Kojima stated, even the timeline made by Kojima for this game states he was comatose by the patriots in MG2.

 

[RK9039]

Just to be clear, are you trying to say you think these are maybe shopped?

I think it's possible he didn't take the screenshots of the log in order? That's the only explanation given the timestamps are a bit wrong.

 

[AAMARMO]

I think it's possible he didn't take the screenshots of the log in order? That's the only explanation given the timestamps are a bit wrong.

Is it me but does that controller icon look like a steam controller.

 

[Gbraga]

I don't think he does to be honest, he's perfectly right in what he's saying. Going off your logic that makes liquid and Solidus big boss, they share the same ideas, look exactly like the man, hell they even have 99.5% of the same DNA but that still doesn't make them Big Boss.

Ah ok, but still he wasn't only in a coma once as Kojima stated, even the timeline made by Kojima for this game states he was comatose by the patriots in MG2.

Do they believe they're Big Boss though? To the point that the mere fact that they're not actually the man can completely destroy their sanity? That's a very important distinction to make this conversation even a thing in the first place.

He's not just a dude cosplaying Big Boss, he believes he's Big Boss (or at least that seems to be the case), that's very important.

 

[Krabboss]

I don't think he does to be honest, he's perfectly right in what he's saying. Going off your logic that makes liquid and Solidus big boss, they share the same ideas, look exactly like the man, hell they even have 99.5% of the same DNA but that still doesn't make them Big Boss.

My logic was that if somebody looks, sounds like, is called and is believed to be Big Boss then it is not incorrect to say they are Big Boss.

Solid and Liquid didn't even look alike. Neither looked like Solidus. Old Snake did not look like old Big Boss. Solid, Liquid and Solidus all had different voices (old Snake and old BB also had different voices) and none of them called themselves Big Boss except Solidus briefly.

 

[Venom Fox]

Is it me but does that controller icon look like a steam controller.

Also is there another system update this week? It's not the Beta one because I dont think its that and I haven't been prompted to update.

Edit: Lol NDA

 

[Ishida]

Do they believe they're Big Boss though? To the point that the mere fact that they're not actually the man can completely destroy their sanity? That's a very important distinction to make this conversation even a thing in the first place.

He's not just a dude cosplaying Big Boss, he believes he's Big Boss (or at least that seems to be the case), that's very important.

Yes, but he eventually learns the truth, and he realizes he is not Big Boss. He stops being Big Boss, then?

 

[vano89]

I think it's possible he didn't take the screenshots of the log in order? That's the only explanation given the timestamps are a bit wrong.

Yeah, probably he sent the first screenshot and then was asked to send the whole conversation, no big deal here!

 

[Sub_Level]

That Zero tape is kind of gving me feels...

 

[Krabboss]

Yes, but he eventually learns the truth, and he realizes he is not Big Boss. He stops being Big Boss, then?

No, he does not. He continues to be Big Boss. He still calls himself Big Boss and the world believes him. The original Big Boss does not contest this because he seems to not care about it as deeply as you do.

 

[Venom Fox]

My logic was that if somebody looks, sounds like, is called and is believed to be Big Boss then it is not incorrect to say they are Big Boss.

Solid and Liquid didn't even look alike. Neither looked like Solidus. Old Snake did not look like old Big Boss. Solid, Liquid and Solidus all had different voices (old Snake and old BB also had different voices) and none of them called themselves Big Boss except Solidus briefly.

Because it's a game, it's scientifically proven that a clone would look, talk and have the same behaviour as the original model from which they made a clone.

They are clones of the same person.

 

[Ishida]

No, he does not. He continues to be Big Boss. He still calls himself Big Boss and the world believes him. The original Big Boss does not contest this because he seems to not care about it as deeply as you do.

You mean he continues to be Big Boss' body double. Even if a man believes himself to be something, that doesn't mean he is. If some guy hits his head and starts believing he is the Pope, does that make him the Pope? Even if he looked like the Pope, and people believed him to be the Pope, there's only one Pope right?

 

[Venom Fox]

Yeah, probably he sent the first screenshot and then was asked to send the whole conversation, no big deal here!

But the scroll bar would still be in order wouldn't it?

 

[Venom Fox]

You mean he continues to be Big Boss' body double. Even if a man believes himself to be something, that doesn't mean he is. If some guy hits his head and starts believing he is the Pope, does that make him the Pope? Even if he looked like the Pope, and people believed him to be the Pope, there's only one Pope right?

I agree just so you know, they are trying to use MGS game logic and real life logic together lol.
Double post.

 

[Aristion]

Venom Snake is not Big Boss. He is a body double.

He's effectively Big Boss. That's what he means.

 

[--R]

Yeah, probably he sent the first screenshot and then was asked to send the whole conversation, no big deal here!

But what about the scroll bar?

 

[Erigu]

Even if he exercised the presidential powers he would still be a fake. Only one of them would officially be the president, the other would be an impostor.

We're really running in circles, and I'm not sure why, at this point... ^^;
It simply depends on how you define "real president". Your position is that the election is what matters. Some would argue that if someone is elected but somebody else calls the shots after that, it's actually that somebody else who's the "real president".

 

[Ishida]

He's effectively Big Boss. That's what he means.

He's a Big Boss impostor, yeah. The real Big Boss is hiding.

We're really running in circles, and I'm not sure why, at this point... ^^;
It simply depends on how you define "real president". Your position is that the election is what matters. Some would argue that if someone is elected but somebody else calls the shots after that, it's actually that somebody else who's the "real president".

I understand that, but I don't agree.

As far as I'm concerned, one person is the official president, one that was elected and was given the title. And the other one is an entirely different person who is impersonating the real one.

 

[vano89]

No, he does not. He continues to be Big Boss. He still calls himself Big Boss and the world believes him. The original Big Boss does not contest this because he seems to not care about it as deeply as you do.

So Phantom becomes crazy? He convinces himself to be BB? Maybe he do so to cope with the pain (phantom pain!) of what he did...

Or he continues to be BB double as a "job", so that Outer Heaven gets founded but the real BB is safe, knowing that if the place gets overrunned (like the mother base in GZ) he is still safe, somewhere drinking a martini

 

[Shauni]

Wow, I cannot tell if some of you guys are just being obtuse as fuck in this conversation or what.

 

[AAMARMO]

Also Konami follows the leaker. Might not mean anything :3
https://twitter.com/thabtouk

 

[Gbraga]

Yes, but he eventually learns the truth, and he realizes he is not Big Boss. He stops being Big Boss, then?

Not really, he still has the memories, the intentions, the abilities and everything else.

He's not Naked Snake, but he is Big Boss.

You mean he continues to be Big Boss' body double. Even if a man believes himself to be something, that doesn't mean he is. If some guy hits his head and starts believing he is the Pope, does that make him the Pope? Even if he looked like the Pope, and people believed him to be the Pope, there's only one Pope right?

There's a difference between believeing you're the Pope and having his memories, his friends, his face, his voice, his influence, sleeping on his bed, wearing his clothes and etc, and no one else claiming otherwise.

Venom is not a cosplayer, he's "a Big Boss".

 

[RK9039]

Is it me but does that controller icon look like a steam controller.

Looks a bit like the DS4.

Has Ocelot ever been referred to as "the Ocelot"?

 

[shocky2002]

MORE PROOF FROM MY SOURCE, THIS TIME OF ZERO'S FINAL VISIT TO BIG BOSS IN THE CYRPUS HOSPITAL!

Can your source please just post a clear still of Ishmael removing his bandages and revealing the sexy demon himself to prove it once and for all? /mgg/ and some people here are still denying it.