The men saluting you in the basement of the quarantine ward put a little lump in my throat.
SPOILER: Spoiler Metal Gear Solid V (TPS) Spoiler Thread (Contains Spoilers, Thanos).
- Thread starter Love Deterrence
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The men saluting you in the basement of the quarantine ward put a little lump in my throat.
PLASTICA-MAN
Member
Yes, if I recall correctly.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
To be fair every game has fucked with the canon significantly.
I gotta hand it to Kojima, as far as twists goes, he knows how to put the writing on the wall. The parallels to MGS2 as well as pointing out the obvious are really there.
Yep, same. And I don't know about you but I'll pretend MGSV is a spin-off, I don' care.
Significantly? Can you provide some good examples?
BreezyLimbo
Banned
MGS retcons~
Man you know it's fucked when 'retcon' gets its own page in a wikia. And it's a lengthy page. It's obvious Kojima doesn't treat his series as a bible, it's weird that fans do.
I don't see a 5 in the title. The 'V' could mean 'Rising 2' for all I know.
I'd probably be happier with MGSV if it turned out to be an open world spin-off, with MGS5 still to be made.
I wouldn't call most of those "retcons", but "expansions" instead.
bodyofanamerican
Member
edit: Nevermind.
Customize -> Buddy Equipment from the Idroid.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Then why isn't MGSV considered an 'expansion'? We don't know shit about what or why happened in MG1 or MG2 other than that's where BB is killed twice by Solid Snake, and that they were mercenary nations of sorts.
MGSV provides a reason for SS to kill BB twice, and it provides info as how BB was able to build two infrastructures in two relatively different locations in a short amount of time.
bodyofanamerican
Member
Thanks! Turns out tapping "right" on the d-pad helps too, haha.
I consider it as such, personally.
Also, Big Boss didn't die in the original. Even in the original script he was clearly stated to have survived. He even sends you a message at the very end. I don't know where this "Snake killed Big Boss in Outer Heaven" nonsense comes from.
Even though the real Snake voiced at the end of the game is Keifer too?
I've only just realised that David Hayter was legit not in the game as well, thats actually quite sad. I guess a part of me believed it was all just a ruse but Hayter's tweets really were true.
Also, how come Quiet didn't spread the vocal parasite when she called in the chopper?
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Well, 'defeated' then @_@
Still, it's a stupidly written story with moments of genius. Kojima himself is ok with the retcons, and it's like....yeah, can't fault him there.
I'd be warmer to the twist if Phantom Ganon was the BB in both MG1 and MG2, and Big Boss was the commander of FOXHOUND. That would at least explain something.
Trying to outdo the faux you by doing the bigger, more evil shit is just dumb. There's no reason to have them be seperate, it doesn't help the narrative one iota.
Either don't do it, or say the imposter 'killed BB', who was then comatose until MGS4. Heck, that would have been cool to play. The twist, as is, doesn't do anything to explain any of the actions of the characters, it just convolutes everything.
Trying to outdo the faux you by doing the bigger, more evil shit is just dumb. There's no reason to have them be seperate, it doesn't help the narrative one iota.
Either don't do it, or say the imposter 'killed BB', who was then comatose until MGS4. Heck, that would have been cool to play. The twist, as is, doesn't do anything to explain any of the actions of the characters, it just convolutes everything.
He is not bro just let it go
BreezyLimbo
Banned
So par on course for Kojima!
I think I'll be turning the ending over in my head for a bit.
I sort of agree with the people who think the ending might have been changed or rushed. Maybe because the final scene in the mirror with Big Boss where he says "you are me and I am you, thank you friend" or whatever, it really felt like Kojima was talking to Metal Gear fans.
I sort of agree with the people who think the ending might have been changed or rushed. Maybe because the final scene in the mirror with Big Boss where he says "you are me and I am you, thank you friend" or whatever, it really felt like Kojima was talking to Metal Gear fans.
TheAquaticApe
Member
Ok. Where is Paz? I went though the door on Medical but now there's two signs saying work in progress. What am I missing GAF?
In my opinion, because it changes some key concepts of the saga that we've known for almost 30 years, things that had deep consequences in the MGS universe. Most of the facts in that wiki are details, like Miller's design or side twists we can all live with, I mean who cares if Raikov survived or not the encounter with Naked Snake? Some are indeed "expansion" as Ishida says, like Sigint being Anderson, but we're talking about Big Boss's legend here.
The thing is, he's done that before, with MGS2's ending. But that was just meta; Raiden has dog tags with our names and dates of birth in them, but it is never acknowledged in the story. That's how you do it.
With MGSV Venom Snake is just in just meta way. He is literally that dude at the back of the helicopter. So it's a combination of speaking to the player, but also impacting canon.
The Silver
Member
I would've wanted real BB to come out and shoot you in the head at the end.
I'll agree it's kind of half-assed the way it is, either go all the way and have Venom be the evil BB that the world knows or make real BB a true scumbag who uses poor Venom and then throws him away like trash.
Though I really wouldn't want a complete whitewashing of Big Boss so I do prefer what we have now to the first scenario of Venom completely taking over.
I'll agree it's kind of half-assed the way it is, either go all the way and have Venom be the evil BB that the world knows or make real BB a true scumbag who uses poor Venom and then throws him away like trash.
Though I really wouldn't want a complete whitewashing of Big Boss so I do prefer what we have now to the first scenario of Venom completely taking over.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
I would say it builds on that. Like, it builds on the themes of MGS2/MGS4 that a Legend has outgrown a person, that a person can be made to fit the legend. This is the culmination of that. Or, the progenitor of that. Yes, Big Boss brought into his own legend and really thought he could create a nation of soldiers. If the series changed Big Bosses characterization from being complete evil, than that happened in MGS4 with BB accepting Snake as a man. (In fact, before that the other instance of BB we saw in MGS3, and he was portrayed as a compassionate soldier who wasn't a bad guy.).
bodyofanamerican
Member
One other question for the thread. Did anyone figure out what causes Quiet to leave and if you get her back? My bond rating with her is near 90 right now I think.
Robdraggoo
Member
are we expected to believe that a medic who was in a coma for 9 years is suddenly a baddass soldier so good that people will mistake him for big boss, the true legendary soldier.
Yep.
Not suddenly.
After hypnotherapy and 10 days of training by Ocelot while travelling.
The Silver
Member
sure, all most people know about Big Boss is the legend, stories; they don't know the man behind them, who he really is.
Venom looks like BB, talks like BB, says he's BB, Ocelot and Miller says he's the real deal, and he seems to be a damn good soldier. Yeah sure, that's Big Boss alright.
As we saw with The Boss AI, someone who truly knew BB, it quickly figured out he was a fake, to these rest of the world/his soldiers, BB is just a role and Venom adequately fills it.
Only finished the game an hour ago but I'm pretty sure she's not coming back but supposedly there's an obscure way to make her never leave.
She leaves because she's infected. But as I mentioned earlier in the thread, I don't understand how BB doesn't contract the parasite when she calls for the chopper in Afghanistan.
Ganondorfo
Junior Member
Is it me or is the storyline not as mindblowing anymore as during the previous Metal Gear Solid games, maybe it's because I am getting older, but not really feeling the story of this game, I feel like Kojima could have done better, it's still good, but it doesnt have that mindblowing feeling of being blown away like for example during the Gray Fox reveal in Metal Gear Solid 1 being Frank Jaeger, stuff like that.
crazyrabbits
Banned
A listing of key items acquired in-game.
Children's Reward: Complete Mission 18 ("Blood Runs Deep"). Can be used to develop the Water Pistol weapon.
The Codename - Big Boss: Complete Mission 46 ("Truth: The Man Who Sold The World"). Can be used to develop the Leather Jacket uniform.
Conch Shell: Complete Side-Op 113 ("Eli's Challenge"). Can be used to develop the Fulton Device - Children upgrade.
Emmerich's Research Notes: View the cutscene where Huey is exiled from Mother Base. Can be used to develop the Stealth Camo uniform.
First Aid Manual: Complete Mission 18 ("Blood Runs Deep"), then head back to Mana Village and search the houses. Can be used to develop Tactical (Fulton) equipment for D-Dog.
Grand Master Certificate (Box): Pick up all delivery invoices in both Afghanistan and Africa. Can be used to develop the C-Box (SMK) equipment.
Grand Master Certificate (Elite): Complete all missions on high difficulty levels (Extreme, Subsistence, Total Stealth) with an S-Rank. Can be used to develop the Naked (Gold) uniform.
Grand Master Certificate (Fulton): Fulton more than 1,000 targets. Can be used to develop F-Ballista equipment for D-Walker.
Grand Master Certificate (Standard): Complete all missions (except those on a high difficulty level) with an S-Rank. Can be used to develop the Raiden uniform.
Handkerchief: Complete Mission 40 ("Cloaked in Silence [Extreme]"). Can be used to develop the Sniper Wolf uniform for Quiet.
Man on Fire (Corpse): Complete Side-Op 144 ("Secure the Remains of the Man on Fire"). Can be used to develop the Furicorn uniform for D-Horse.
Master Certificate (Box): Pick up all delivery invoices in either Afghanistan or Africa. Can be used to develop the C-Box (WR) equipment.
Master Certificate (Elite): Complete all missions on high difficulty levels (Extreme, Subsistence, Total Stealth) with any rank. Can be used to develop the Bionic Arm (Silver) equipment and Naked (Silver) uniform.
Master Certificate (Fulton): Fulton more than 500 targets. Can be used to develop Rank 3 of the Fulton Device upgrade.
Master Certificate (Marking): Mark a total of 500 targets. Enables the player to distinguish between enemy combatants and enemy decoys.
Master Certificate (Standard): Complete all main missions (except those on high difficulty levels) with any rank. Can be used to develop the Cyborg Ninja uniform.
Quiet's Examination Report: Complete Mission 40 ("Cloaked in Silence [Extreme]"), or view the cutscene where Quiet is interrogated at Mother Base. Can be used to develop the Gray XOF uniform for Quiet.
Skulls Machete: Complete Mission 29 ("Metallic Archaea"). Can be used to develop Task-Arm FM equipment for D-Walker.
Star of Bethlehem: Complete Mission 46 ("Truth: The Man Who Sold the World"). Can be used to develop the Infinity Bandana headgear.
Strangelove's Memento: Complete Side-Op 143 ("Extract the A.I. Pod"). Can be used to develop the Bandana headgear.
Artificially lower her Buddy bond or keep the Butterfly (front) part in your own emblem. Do either of those things before commencing Mission 43 (at least for now). Was explained on the last page.
Children's Reward: Complete Mission 18 ("Blood Runs Deep"). Can be used to develop the Water Pistol weapon.
The Codename - Big Boss: Complete Mission 46 ("Truth: The Man Who Sold The World"). Can be used to develop the Leather Jacket uniform.
Conch Shell: Complete Side-Op 113 ("Eli's Challenge"). Can be used to develop the Fulton Device - Children upgrade.
Emmerich's Research Notes: View the cutscene where Huey is exiled from Mother Base. Can be used to develop the Stealth Camo uniform.
First Aid Manual: Complete Mission 18 ("Blood Runs Deep"), then head back to Mana Village and search the houses. Can be used to develop Tactical (Fulton) equipment for D-Dog.
Grand Master Certificate (Box): Pick up all delivery invoices in both Afghanistan and Africa. Can be used to develop the C-Box (SMK) equipment.
Grand Master Certificate (Elite): Complete all missions on high difficulty levels (Extreme, Subsistence, Total Stealth) with an S-Rank. Can be used to develop the Naked (Gold) uniform.
Grand Master Certificate (Fulton): Fulton more than 1,000 targets. Can be used to develop F-Ballista equipment for D-Walker.
Grand Master Certificate (Standard): Complete all missions (except those on a high difficulty level) with an S-Rank. Can be used to develop the Raiden uniform.
Handkerchief: Complete Mission 40 ("Cloaked in Silence [Extreme]"). Can be used to develop the Sniper Wolf uniform for Quiet.
Man on Fire (Corpse): Complete Side-Op 144 ("Secure the Remains of the Man on Fire"). Can be used to develop the Furicorn uniform for D-Horse.
Master Certificate (Box): Pick up all delivery invoices in either Afghanistan or Africa. Can be used to develop the C-Box (WR) equipment.
Master Certificate (Elite): Complete all missions on high difficulty levels (Extreme, Subsistence, Total Stealth) with any rank. Can be used to develop the Bionic Arm (Silver) equipment and Naked (Silver) uniform.
Master Certificate (Fulton): Fulton more than 500 targets. Can be used to develop Rank 3 of the Fulton Device upgrade.
Master Certificate (Marking): Mark a total of 500 targets. Enables the player to distinguish between enemy combatants and enemy decoys.
Master Certificate (Standard): Complete all main missions (except those on high difficulty levels) with any rank. Can be used to develop the Cyborg Ninja uniform.
Quiet's Examination Report: Complete Mission 40 ("Cloaked in Silence [Extreme]"), or view the cutscene where Quiet is interrogated at Mother Base. Can be used to develop the Gray XOF uniform for Quiet.
Skulls Machete: Complete Mission 29 ("Metallic Archaea"). Can be used to develop Task-Arm FM equipment for D-Walker.
Star of Bethlehem: Complete Mission 46 ("Truth: The Man Who Sold the World"). Can be used to develop the Infinity Bandana headgear.
Strangelove's Memento: Complete Side-Op 143 ("Extract the A.I. Pod"). Can be used to develop the Bandana headgear.
Artificially lower her Buddy bond or keep the Butterfly (front) part in your own emblem. Do either of those things before commencing Mission 43 (at least for now). Was explained on the last page.
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
Bb said he would eventually kill Quiet himself, yet nothing comes of it. Logically, she has the same parasite as Eli, so she is as much of a threat. BB would have to kill her. You can't have that dramatic part where BB says he's the one who will pull the trigger and then it never happening.
Sounds like a lot was cut and rushed out.
Sounds like a lot was cut and rushed out.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Killing Skullface is the basic ending.
The part about us having to replay missions to continue the story is compelling evidence for that. That and how much work went into mission 51 before they scrapped it. THAT much work doesn't usually go into content on the cutting room floor. It seems like it would've been it's own unique mission area as well, not seen anywhere else in the game.
EmCeeGramr
Member
I feel like there is something that changed with Kojima's writing post-3.
I don't want to be all "Oh, it's all because there was this other writer," because those sorts of fan theories trying to simplify years of writing down into discrete little variables is always more mythology than reality.
But... there is something odd. 1-3 had lots of dumb, poorly handled stuff, lots of goofy sexy fanservice, lots of muddled narrative that just distracted from what Kojima was trying to say. Just getting that out there now. But it also felt like they handled their themes more... naturally. Characters and plot threads always followed along the given theme of each game, sometimes in your face, sometimes indirectly. Plot twists almost always had a connection to the themes or to some kind of message to the player. There was fanservice, but the characters always felt like adults.
Then, something changed. The supposed themes either became irrelevant (what does MGS4 really have to do with "sense," other than the sense ring and soldiers having emotional states?) or even more in your face (get it? OLD snake is OLD and things have to END! PAZ, PACIFICA, PEACE WALKER, DETERRENCE, PEACE PEACE PEACE PEACE!!!! REVEEEEEEEEEENGE!). Take how nearly everybody in MGS1 happens to have a backstory related to their family, ethnicity, or blood but doesn't feel the need to say "DNA" or "genes" every other word, and compare that to "characters in Peace Walker spend 30 minutes talking about their views on nuclear deterrence or literally have 'peace' or 'hot/cold' for a name."
Plot twists seemed to be less about the themes and messages and more about taking the series lore at face value by adding more WHAT A TWIST!s to it (The Patriots were the MGS3 people! Big Boss is alive! There was a Boss AI! Paz was a double agent! It was a fake Big Boss at Outer Heaven!). EVA betraying Snake and The Boss choosing to die not only matched the theme about "the times," it also was Kojima subtly subverting the idea of playing as the legendary Big Boss by showing you that the mission that made him a legend was built on a massive lie, involved him being fooled right up til the very end, and emotionally destroyed him, all of which is important to his character development. Now he subverts that idea by, uh, having it literally be a fake Big Boss who just happened to be available and was conveniently brainwashed and modified to look, sound, and act like the real one.
Fanservice took an oddly... fetishistic turn. Meryl being 18 to Snake's 33 and all is weird, and there were tons of things like pinup posters or EVA flirting with BB by showing off her body... but that all seems light years ahead of what came after. Naomi(!?) showing off her cleavage, jiggling Rose's boobs with Sixaxis, B&Bs writhing around while you take photos (bonus: they're all mentally unstable!!!), staring at Paz's underwear and her tapes about Strangelove molesting her and unlocking underwear and bikini outfits for the girls at MSF, the camera work with Quiet. Actually, speaking of that, it's really weird that there's this constant thing of strong women falling in love with awkward nerds (Meryl x Johnny, Naomi x Otacon, Strangelove x Huey), and superpowerful supermodels who suddenly have child-like mental states (B&Bs, Quiet).
I dunno. There's elements of this stuff in the first three games, and it's not like the post-3 games have totally abandoned each of those things... they still show up to a certain extent. But it's just something I've noticed.
I don't want to be all "Oh, it's all because there was this other writer," because those sorts of fan theories trying to simplify years of writing down into discrete little variables is always more mythology than reality.
But... there is something odd. 1-3 had lots of dumb, poorly handled stuff, lots of goofy sexy fanservice, lots of muddled narrative that just distracted from what Kojima was trying to say. Just getting that out there now. But it also felt like they handled their themes more... naturally. Characters and plot threads always followed along the given theme of each game, sometimes in your face, sometimes indirectly. Plot twists almost always had a connection to the themes or to some kind of message to the player. There was fanservice, but the characters always felt like adults.
Then, something changed. The supposed themes either became irrelevant (what does MGS4 really have to do with "sense," other than the sense ring and soldiers having emotional states?) or even more in your face (get it? OLD snake is OLD and things have to END! PAZ, PACIFICA, PEACE WALKER, DETERRENCE, PEACE PEACE PEACE PEACE!!!! REVEEEEEEEEEENGE!). Take how nearly everybody in MGS1 happens to have a backstory related to their family, ethnicity, or blood but doesn't feel the need to say "DNA" or "genes" every other word, and compare that to "characters in Peace Walker spend 30 minutes talking about their views on nuclear deterrence or literally have 'peace' or 'hot/cold' for a name."
Plot twists seemed to be less about the themes and messages and more about taking the series lore at face value by adding more WHAT A TWIST!s to it (The Patriots were the MGS3 people! Big Boss is alive! There was a Boss AI! Paz was a double agent! It was a fake Big Boss at Outer Heaven!). EVA betraying Snake and The Boss choosing to die not only matched the theme about "the times," it also was Kojima subtly subverting the idea of playing as the legendary Big Boss by showing you that the mission that made him a legend was built on a massive lie, involved him being fooled right up til the very end, and emotionally destroyed him, all of which is important to his character development. Now he subverts that idea by, uh, having it literally be a fake Big Boss who just happened to be available and was conveniently brainwashed and modified to look, sound, and act like the real one.
Fanservice took an oddly... fetishistic turn. Meryl being 18 to Snake's 33 and all is weird, and there were tons of things like pinup posters or EVA flirting with BB by showing off her body... but that all seems light years ahead of what came after. Naomi(!?) showing off her cleavage, jiggling Rose's boobs with Sixaxis, B&Bs writhing around while you take photos (bonus: they're all mentally unstable!!!), staring at Paz's underwear and her tapes about Strangelove molesting her and unlocking underwear and bikini outfits for the girls at MSF, the camera work with Quiet. Actually, speaking of that, it's really weird that there's this constant thing of strong women falling in love with awkward nerds (Meryl x Johnny, Naomi x Otacon, Strangelove x Huey), and superpowerful supermodels who suddenly have child-like mental states (B&Bs, Quiet).
I dunno. There's elements of this stuff in the first three games, and it's not like the post-3 games have totally abandoned each of those things... they still show up to a certain extent. But it's just something I've noticed.
I agree with Kaz , should have killed him right there and then.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsMJH8oHUgo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsMJH8oHUgo
The way they handle that whole sub-plot is bizarre.
"Emmerich betrayed us."
"Emmerich is working on Battle Gear! Hooray!"
"Emmerich betrayed us AGAIN!!"
Edit: Sorry, forgot to ask. Eli is definitely Liquid right? He fails the DNA test 'cause it's not the real BB and during your small fight with him in Africa he says "It's not over yet, Snake!"
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
Problems, yes, but it's not impossible to do. I think that's selling the ability of game creators short. It just so happened that it was a failure this time.
For now, and for a long time though, it will likely remain the best effort. Not many intellectual properties can claim to be telling a continuous story for 28 years. The people who worked on these games deserve at least as much credit as they do any constructive criticism.
Just look at Terminator for example. That continuous story has gone on about as long as Metal Gear Solid and it's actually much LESS coherent and well told than MGS. I mean the series took longer to finish than Tolkein's Hobbit + Lord of the Rings saga. Longer than it took Frank Herbet to do the 6 Dune books.
SenatorBot
Member
Holy shit, I just listened to a tape from Codetalker that explained the origins of the parasite.
It's basically from The End from MGS3, he found parasites in The Fear and The Pain as well.
I think it's a beautiful concept, a man that doesn't live up to his legend. Fact is, in my opinion it doesn't work here. It doesn't work because the twist is weak, it doesn't work because it weakens a lot of things of the MGS universe.
Big Boss, good or evil? That's why MGS3 is so great, it gave us a new point of view. Big Boss was indeed presented as the bad guy, a terrorist and a war criminal.. because ehi, he was. But then the games built on this figure and a lot of mistery and charisma was added to that soldier. From Outer Heaven to Zanzibar Land, Les Enfants Terrible Project, the genome soldiers, Gray Fox, Sniper Wolf and of course Solid Snake, Liquid trying to rebuild Big Boss's fantasy, all great characters and moments linked somehow to a single person: Big Boss. It was really starting to feel more than a criminal, this dude.
And then, the masterpiece. We were presented with a innocent Naked Snake that it's revealed at the end to be Big Boss. The ending was extremely expressive (also thanks to editing, audio and dubbing), how he ended up to be MG1's Big Boss was pretty logical: unfortunately with time he became a slave of the world he created as he couldn't stay away from the battlefield. Not that he liked it, from his words it sounds more like he's condemned to this fate, a fate from which he'll be freed by Solid Snake, with his death, and the fate that the same Solid Snake will inherit. The difference between the two? Solid would like to stay away from it while Big Boss just accepted it and eventually embraced it. This is what humans do, they can be similar but their choices are what really matter. But see, that's the point, that man on the screen saluting his mentor is Big Boss. He's one, not "a legend", he's his own legend and we've seen the birth of it, born from a tear on a graveyard we could say. He was well worthy of that codename and his reputation and MGS4 added even more to this person, his life marked 50 years of history as much as The Boss's life and death marked his own existence. To reduce Big Boss to "a legend and nothing more, someone that can be replaced with...
(LMAO)
.. is the same as keeping The Boss alive in the form of a AI: you're killing the character.
At the end of MGS4, what we see is a old man that lost everything already, who realized how wrong he was. All that's left is his son and his shadow, Zero. Close to his death, he finally realizes what The Boss meant and he dies there, where everything started. He, John, not "a legend that had a damn double because he was afraid of the most pathetic enemy of the saga". This is not changing, it's evolution, a perfect character's arc like we've seen so few in gaming and I loved every second of it for years.
But then MGSV comes in and fucks up everything.
This is how I see it, personally, and sorry if I repeated some of the things I said few days ago.
I agree with this. But how long was MGSV in development? :|
All very true. I'd like to discuss this as soon as possible with all GAF, but why this happened in your opinion? If it's not due to Fukushima leaving (I believe it is), let's say that's a coincidence, what is it? Maybe a single person can't cover all the positions that Kojima claim to cover and while he's, no doubt, a great game designer, his contribution to the actual story isn't that much. I guess Murata is to blame, Kojima says "yes / no / what if". I don't know, just saying.
edit:
Why that slow motion at 3:40 ?? XD
Cob32
Member
Yep I think it's supposed to be the earliest form of nano machines.
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