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[ZeroX03]

Is he powerful in MGS4? I know he controlled the B&B's, but that's similar to him controlling Meryl. I don't think he doesn't anything on par with creating a gigantic fire whale in MGS4.

Well he managed to control an army from beyond the grave. It was a big step up from MGS1. It took The Sorrow to intervene which is a whole different can of worms.

As I said before I just see it as Mantis in TPP being at his prime level of power. This is the Mantis who has been experimented on and is having his powers trained by a Russian organisation, not the far more laid back adult Mantis who chooses to manipulate people rather than destroy them.

Except there's no explanation as to how his prime is apparently as a child and dead but not as an adult.

 

[nOoblet16]

But that contradicts MGS4 where he's a lot more powerful with the same personality as MGS1. It makes sense his powers would grow over time, but he apparently he goes from incredibly powerful to threatening to incredibly powerful?



Explains why Liquid was the one affecting Mantis over Skull Face. Doesn't explain how he's so god damn powerful.

Well whatever brain waves or something he sends out that manifests as his power was stronger when he was a KO'd than when he is older. So pretty much means he is powerful because reasons and then he grows up to become less powerful as he is not a kid anymore.

 

[Alienous]

Well he managed to control an army from beyond the grave. It was a big step up from MGS1. It took The Sorrow to intervene which is a whole different can of worms.

That doesn't mean he's more powerful than he ever was, just that his influence can exist beyond his death (like The Sorrow). That could still be the case with Mantis in TPP.

Except there's no explanation as to how his prime is apparently as a child and dead but not as an adult.

He was a child who had nothing other than his abilities, and was exploited as a weapon, in TPP.

He's an adult with feelings in MGS. He uses his power to manipulate people like toys. I don't even know if he can't do the things he done in TPP, or if he just doesn't want to. He doesn't seem to have a reason to. He's just a goofy man with powers, not a weapon.

 

[Anung]

The man who sold the world doesn't really fit when I think about it. How did he sell the world? Plus Bowie doesn't really fit in here, as with the rest of the game it feels out of place IMO, just like Sins of the father during that awkward Jeep ride.

The song itself is a hint at the ending. MHSTW deals in doppelgangers or maybe multiple personalities but if you look at the lyrics it could certainly fit into the plot or at least be seen as a metaphor for Venom being addressed by the real big boss.

I think its a cool song, with a cool title and another hint in a pile of not so subtle hints at an obvious twist.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

Am I crazy for wanting a scene/montage epilogue with Ocelot torturing DARPA chief?

and maybe Dr Clark being killed by Fox and Kaz being killed by Liquid or Ocelot?

 

[AHA-Lambda]

Is the song A Phantom Pain ever actually used in game?

 

[Fehyd]

Just got first ending. Love the game. Absolutely love it.

 

[ZeroX03]

That doesn't mean he's more powerful than he ever was, just that his influence can exist beyond his death (like The Sorrow). That could still be the case with Mantis in TPP.

Psycho Mantis was way more powerful in MGS4 than MGS1. Even nanomachines, son! can't really explain away him controlling the living and dead en masse although they certainly tried. Mantis was a run-of-the-mill telepath in MGS1, so to speak.

This "he's more powerful as a child" line of thinking is really just speculation that isn't supported by anything in the game. The emotions of children plot line was referring to Liquid's bond with him. Ironically he doesn't seem to much care for Liquid's insurrection in MGS1.

He was a child who had nothing other than his abilities, and was exploited as a weapon, in TPP.

He's an adult with feelings in MGS. He uses his power to manipulate people like toys. I don't even know if he can't do the things he done in TPP, or if he just doesn't want to. He doesn't seem to have a reason to. He's just a goofy man with powers, not a weapon.

He doesn't just manipulate people like toys, he's a serial killer who wants to inflict mass death.

There's just a whole lot of inconsistencies between Mantis in MGS1 and Tretij Rebenok in MGSV. I'm sure it's just Kojima not caring to explain anything or not caring for canon as he tends to do. Probably why his identity is kept vague throughout the game and he's only referred to as Mantis on the soundtrack IIRC.

 

[Zomba13]

Am I crazy for wanting a scene/montage epilogue with Ocelot torturing DARPA chief?

and maybe Dr Clark being killed by Fox and Kaz being killed by Liquid or Ocelot?

Nope. I think it'd have been nice to have a montage of "and this is the horrible way this character died!" to wrap up all the BB era characters. It would have been way too much work though.

 

[Alienous]

Psycho Mantis was way more powerful in MGS4 than MGS1. Even nanomachines, son! can't really explain away him controlling the living and dead en masse although they certainly tried. Mantis was a run-of-the-mill telepath in MGS1, so to speak.

This "he's more powerful as a child" line of thinking is really just speculation that isn't supported by anything in the game. The emotions of children plot line was referring to Liquid's bond with him. Ironically he doesn't seem to much care for Liquid's insurrection in MGS1.

Ok, but Mantis' backstory (before The Phantom Pain) is that he burned his village to the ground with his powers as a young child. In MGS he can barely set a room on fire. So he either became less capable, or he didn't want to use his powers to their full extent against Snake.

 

[Zomba13]

Ok, but Mantis' backstory (before The Phantom Pain) is that he burned his village to the ground with his powers as a young child. In MGS he can barely set a room on fire. So he either became less capable, or he didn't want to use his powers to their full extent against Snake.

The only thing I can think of that fits is either the older you get the weaker your powers are (but you can still be a ghost and do weird shit if you want no matter you age) or he didn't want to hurt Solid because he reminds him of Liquid (you know, clones etc) and Liquid and Mantis are super BFFs.

Or the games are told via Patriot cover ups and nothing is real everything is permitted Illuminati 360 no scope.

 

[ZeroX03]

Ok, but Mantis' backstory (before The Phantom Pain) is that he burned his village to the ground with his powers as a young child. In MGS he can barely set a room on fire. So he either became less capable, or he didn't want to use his powers to their full extent against Snake.

They don't really go into much detail on the extent of his awakening or how much he did. Fire does spread. And it seems Mantis is only partially responsible for The Man on Fire's powers, as he can do it without Mantis in the vicinity (once).

They also explain the gas mask is supposed to help him block out thoughts and focus his psychic powers but that sure doesn't seem to be the case in MGS5.

My point is that Mantis is highly inconsistent and unexplained and you're not really convincing me otherwise with speculation. It's a pretty common issue with prequels and I'm not sure MGSV was all that successful with Mantis and Liquid even including #51.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

Nope. I think it'd have been nice to have a montage of "and this is the horrible way this character died!" to wrap up all the BB era characters. It would have been way too much work though.

Eva, BB, Zero and Ocelot are all covered. Just use MGS4's clips like past MGs did.
I really wanted to see Paramedic go crazy but at the very least a scene with the DARPA chief could have been amazing.
Especially if you had Signt really surprised by Ocelot's actions questioning why he is doing it and acting like they are old "friends"

 

[MDSVeritas]

The man who sold the world doesn't really fit when I think about it. How did he sell the world? Plus Bowie doesn't really fit in here, as with the rest of the game it feels out of place IMO, just like Sins of the father during that awkward Jeep ride.

To my understanding as several people have explained in relation to the song The Man Who Sold The World isn't about literally selling the world to someone, it's about convincing the world of something (e.g. "You really sold me on that"). David Bowie, the writer of the song, has an alternate persona called Ziggy Stardust and his public persona sometimes clashed with his private one. The song literally gives mention of a doppelganger of the singer and deals with the notion of which one the world believes is the real him.

It's actually insanely fitting.

 

[Alienous]

They don't really go into much detail on the extent of his awakening or how much he did. Fire does spread. And it seems Mantis is only partially responsible for The Man on Fire's powers, as he can do it without Mantis in the vicinity (once).

They also explain the gas mask is supposed to help him block out thoughts and focus his psychic powers but that sure doesn't seem to be the case in MGS5.

My point is that Mantis is highly inconsistent and unexplained and you're not really convincing me otherwise with speculation.

1) Fair enough, but based on those two pieces of information it would be fair to assume he's more powerful as a child than he is in Metal Gear Solid. He doesn't burn down a village in MGS, he doesn't even burn down a room.

2) The mask is to stop people's thoughts from "forcing their way into his mind". He still reads minds with his mask on. There's no evidence in The Phantom Pain that thoughts are forced on him, so it's consistent.

3) And you aren't. There's nothing about Mantis in The Phantom Pain that makes me disbelieve that he grows into the person we see in Metal Gear Solid. You aren't really providing any evidence to make me think differently. There's no reason to disbelieve that he's more powerful as an unrestrained, experimented-on child.

 

[nOoblet16]

The song itself is a hint at the ending. MHSTW deals in doppelgangers or maybe multiple personalities but if you look at the lyrics it could certainly fit into the plot or at least be seen as a metaphor for Venom being addressed by the real big boss.

I think its a cool song, with a cool title and another hint in a pile of not so subtle hints at an obvious twist.

To my understanding as several people have explained in relation to the song The Man Who Sold The World isn't about literally selling the world to someone, it's about convincing the world of something (e.g. "You really sold me on that"). David Bowie, the writer of the song, has an alternate persona called Ziggy Stardust and his public persona sometimes clashed with his private one. The song literally gives mention of a doppelganger of the singer and deals with the notion of which one the world believes is the real him.

Well I am a Bowie fan and I know what sold means in this context. But it still feels hamfisted so that Kojima could use the song and the tittle. Why the fuck would BB refer to himself as The man who sold the world anyway (it's written on the tape BB made for Venom).

In any case it's a Glam rock song and it sounds weird in the game lol. Right context perhaps but wrong tone.

 

[ZeroX03]

1) Fair enough, but based on those two pieces of information it would be fair to assume he's more powerful as a child than he is in Metal Gear Solid. He doesn't burn down a village in MGS, he doesn't even burn down a room.

Not really, all he would need to do is mind control a flaming object and send it flying through the town to burn it down. We have no idea how he does it.

2) The mask is to stop people's thoughts from "forcing their way into his mind". He still reads minds with his mask on. There's no evidence in The Phantom Pain that thoughts are forced on him, so it's consistent.

Yes there is, that's what the whole "children's emotion" thing was about. He was latching on to whoever had the most powerful emotions of revenge.

3) And you aren't. There's nothing about Mantis in The Phantom Pain that makes me disbelieve that he grow into the person we see in Metal Gear Solid. You aren't really providing any evidence to make me think differently.

That's he has an incredibly different set of powers and no resemblance of the personality or the backstory post-childhood given.

Anyway I'm done with this. You're just guessing regarding Mantis. You can't explain where he gets his powers from or the limitations of them because Kojima hasn't said them and you're just speculating. This is why I'm not a fan of the parasites for the Cobra Unit. It removes supernatural elements while still leaving a big great one in the middle.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

God I love playing this game, but I am so disappointed by the narrative. It all just is so disjointed and feels inconsequential. The whole parasite thing got more on my nerves than nano-machines. The ending just feels completely unfinished and is dumb. I mean people saw the twist from miles away and it kinda contributes nothing to the overall narrative except for "Hey Big Boss is not that bad mmmkay?"

I was really hoping we would get to see Boss' descent but I guess Kojima fell too much in love with him so he can't be a bad guy.

This game being it is probably for the best.

Im more disappointed he kinda backtracked on Zero.

 

[SictorVullivan]

Is the song A Phantom Pain ever actually used in game?

Yeah,cassette found it in Wakh Sind Barracks. Not sure about actual OST use though.

 

[Alienous]

Not really, all he would need to do is mind control a flaming object and send it flying through the town to burn it down. We have no idea how he does it.

So why doesn't he burn down the room he fights Solid Snake in? What's stopping him?

Speaking of, Mantis doesn't even have flaming powers separate from the Man on Fire, does he?

Yes there is, that's what the whole "children's emotion" thing was about. He was latching on to whoever had the most powerful emotions of revenge.

No, he chooses to latch onto whoever has the most powerful emotions for revenge. He willingly abandons Skull Face and the Man on Fire because he resonates more with Eli. There's no sense of him feeling conflicted about doing so.

That's he has an incredibly different set of powers and no resemblance of the personality or the backstory post-childhood given.

He's a child who was experimented on. He has no discernible personality because he is used as a weapon, and that makes sense for the weird dude Psycho Mantis grows into. He's like the Michael Jackson of psychokinesis.

 

[ZeroX03]

So why doesn't he burn down the room he fights Solid Snake in? What's stopping him?



No, he chooses to latch onto whoever has the most powerful emotions for revenge. He willingly abandons Skull Face and the Man on Fire because he resonates more with Eli. There's no sense of him feeling conflicted about doing so.



He's a child who was experimented on. He has no discernible personality because he is used as a weapon, and that makes sense for the weird dude Psycho Mantis grows into. He's like the Michael Jackson of psychokinesis.

Alienous the fact that neither of can definitively answer these questions proves my point that he's inconsistent and vague at best. I'm done.

 

[Spaghetti]

consistency is a lost cause for metal gear and it has been for a long time. just enjoy each game on its own merits and the events it presents you with.

 

[Alienous]

Alienous the fact that neither of can definitively answer these questions proves my point that he's inconsistent and vague at best. I'm done.

I'll accept that we're both wrong, and we'll just have to defer to the fact that Tretij is actually Mantis anyway, and that favours my viewpoint, so I'll take it as a win.

 

[ZeroX03]

I'll accept that we're both wrong, and we'll just have to defer to the fact that Tretij is actually Mantis anyway, so in that sense I'm right.

I'm not saying that Tretij isn't Mantis (the soundtrack says he is), just that they're still wildly inconsistent with the character and don't explain him like they do with most of the others sans The Sorrow.

 

[Alienous]

I'm not saying that Tretij isn't Mantis (the soundtrack says he is), just that they're still wildly inconsistent with the character and don't explain him like they do with most of the others sans The Sorrow.

But he isn't inconsistent, but we're going to disagree anyway, so I'll just take the win and leave it at that.

 

[nOoblet16]

consistency is a lost cause for metal gear and it has been for a long time. just enjoy each game on its own merits and the events it presents you with.

Yea that's how I see it.
Although this one is very disjointed.

 

[ZeroX03]

But he isn't inconsistent, but we're going to disagree anyway, so I'll just take the win and leave it at that.

Take the win? Oh good lord.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

Huh, I've only just heard of the "demon score" metric, anyone know any details of its effects? I'm surprised it's not mentioned in game =/

 

[BreezyLimbo]

So is there a way to unlock the burnt head for Snake? The one in the last trailer during the hallway before it shifts to Skullface. The one thing that annoys me is that they used so many cut thibgs in the trailer. I hope the burnt man face isnt one of those

 

[ZeroX03]

Huh, I've only just heard of the "demon score" metric, anyone know any details of its effects? I'm surprised it's not mentioned in game =/

Gives you a bigger horn. If it gets high enough you get covered in blood you can't wash off.

 

[PerZona]

Mind blown at the fact that the Big Boss was the fake person after all this time. Seriously Kojima, you're a genius and a troll at the same time! Now we finally know how the hell Big Boss survive after being killed by Solid Snake. Damn.

And is that the reason why Kojima didn't ask David Hayter to voice Big Boss for TPP? But Kojima could have asked David Hayter to voice the few lines during the part where the real Big Boss was having the conversation with Ocelot though.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

Gives you a bigger horn. If it gets high enough you get covered in blood you can't wash off.

Oh kl, I was wondering why my horn didn't get bigger in game.

 

[Spaghetti]

Mind blown at the fact that the Big Boss was the fake person after all this time. Seriously Kojima, you're a genius and a troll at the same time! Now we finally know how the hell Big Boss survive after being killed by Solid Snake. Damn.

And is that the reason why Kojima didn't ask David Hayter to voice Big Boss for TPP? But Kojima could have asked David Hayter to voice the few lines during the part where the real Big Boss was having the conversation with Ocelot though.

because ground zeroes/ishmael. it would have given the twist away.

 

[MDSVeritas]

Im more disappointed he kinda backtracked on Zero.

I actually quite liked the Zero tapes. For a long time we never really heard much from Zero himself out of 3. We heard about the Patriots, about Cipher, and Les Enfants Terribles, and through that it's easy to assume Zero is this sort of villain. Interestingly enough, I think this story went not not as much into Big Boss's descent as Zero's redemption.

For all that he caused, the one person who really could have orchestrated the events to keep Snake alive was Zero, and he did it not because of his ideals, but because he still cared about his friend.

 

[Ether_Snake]

I think I understand why you need to use the butterfly emblem to keep Quiet. The butterfly represents an attachment to a mental barrier. When V finishes collecting the photos for Paz, he's not helping Paz, he's helping himself remember what really happened, and this culminates in a shock/explosion because of the pain it brings, but then peace. We see a butterfly, he grabs it, but then it's gone, it was an illusion.

So in the same way, using the butterfly emblem is the player refusing to accept that Quiet is gone.

 

[KOMANI]

I actually quite liked the Zero tapes. For a long time we never really heard much from Zero himself out of 3. We heard about the Patriots, about Cipher, and Les Enfants Terribles, and through that it's easy to assume Zero is this sort of villain. Interestingly enough, I think this story went not not as much into Big Boss's descent as Zero's redemption.

For all that he caused, the one person who really could have orchestrated the events to keep Snake alive was Zero, and he did it not because of his ideals, but because he still cared about his friend.

those zero tapes are most well acted and they sound very natural.
I know people didn't like miller in this, but at least he's acting, not reading off a script like Strangelove and Ocelot.
Huey's tapes were over acted and annoying.

 

[Earl Grey]

Ok guys I have a question, I started mission 45 by accident and now I can't return to ACC. Am I fucked?

What a mess.

 

[ZeroX03]

Ok guys I have a question, I started mission 45 by accident and now I can't return to ACC. Am I fucked?

What a mess.

Once she escapes the base it's all over.

 

[unknownhero]

question, do I gain anything (mission unlocks, items, etc.) from completing mission 45?

 

[Messiah]

question, do I gain anything (mission unlocks, items, etc.) from completing mission 45?

Quiet's Theme tape and some other story tapes if I remember correctly.

And the only ending that is remotely decent I guess.

 

[Alienous]

Fucking terrible twist.

Why would the doctor show the medic his face before the surgery? I'm sure that'll help him with the illusion that he's really Big Boss.

A Hack Writer Game.

 

[Zomba13]

question, do I gain anything (mission unlocks, items, etc.) from completing mission 45?

Some emblems and a song. Don't think any items (can't remember) but you do get a really nice ending.

It's a fucking awful mission though. Not fun at all.

 

[Spaghetti]

those zero tapes are most well acted and they sound very natural.
I know people didn't like miller in this, but at least he's acting, not reading off a script like Strangelove and Ocelot.
Huey's tapes were over acted and annoying.

i dunno. that one huey interrogation where he drops a truth bomb about d-dog is fucking amazing. loved scumbag huey.

 

[Alienous]

Some emblems and a song. Don't think any items (can't remember) but you do get a really nice ending.

It's a fucking awful mission though. Not fun at all.

It's the "Fuck you, I learned nothing from Peace Walker" mission.

 

[Palpable]

God I love playing this game, but I am so disappointed by the narrative. It all just is so disjointed and feels inconsequential. The whole parasite thing got more on my nerves than nano-machines. The ending just feels completely unfinished and is dumb. I mean people saw the twist from miles away and it kinda contributes nothing to the overall narrative except for "Hey Big Boss is not that bad mmmkay?"

I was really hoping we would get to see Boss' descent but I guess Kojima fell too much in love with him so he can't be a bad guy.

This game being it is probably for the best.

We played as a goddamn body double though. After finding that out, it brick walled my enjoyment of the plot and the game itself. Come on... Everything we work towards in the game isn't even Big Boss himself doing it.

Dat salt. It's a shame though that some people may not appreciate or enjoy some aspects of the story because of the twist because some of it is damn good.

I've fallen into this category & I absolutely hate that. I've been looking forward to the finally of this game for years & I feel so let down.

 

[Death Metalist]

Fucking terrible twist.

Why would the doctor show the medic his face before the surgery? I'm sure that'll help him with the illusion that he's really Big Boss.

A Hack Writer Game.

Dat salt. It's a shame though that some people may not appreciate or enjoy some aspects of the story because of the twist because some of it is damn good.

We played as a goddamn body double though. After finding that out, it brick walled my enjoyment of the plot and the game itself. Come on... Everything we work towards in the game isn't even Big Boss himself doing it.

Well, how else would he be the final boss of MG1 if he didn't do all that awesome and terrible shit? I can't wait for my CE to arrive so I could see what went on behind the scenes.

 

[Spaghetti]

It's the "Fuck you, I learned nothing from Peace Walker" mission.

to be fair it was more enjoyable and dynamic than peace walker's harder tank fights. trust me, i know. i s-ranked everything in pw.

 

[Johan Liebert]

Do I need to do mission 47-50 to unlock 45 and Side Ops 150? I already have 46 unlocked also am wearing the Butterfly emblem.

 

[Messiah]

I also thought that the name "Race" for chapter 2 was weird, considering that's not really that big of a plot point at all or did I miss something?

Do I need to do mission 47-50 to unlock 45 and Side Ops 150? I already have 46 unlocked also am wearing the Butterfly emblem.

You need to unequip the emblem to trigger 45. You will lose Quiet though.

 

[Alienous]

Dat salt. It's a shame though that some people may not appreciate or enjoy some aspects of the story because of the twist because some of it is damn good.

It's a 5 minute M. Night twist that invalidates a lot of the poignancy of the story. A story is connected to the context in which its told, and Big Boss Master Miller's revenge story accompanied by Big Boss Phantom Ganon are events that are only compelling in the fact that they are a chapter in the downfall of a hero and the twist invalidates that.

Based on its own individual merit The Phantom Pain's story isn't great. It has a neat angle with language that it fucks up by turning vocal parasites into something that gives some people super powers but others chest tumours. The core neat idea (a vocally activated virus attuned to particular languages) is diminished by that.