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Sn4ke_911 said:
snake_eater_raiden does not realize that The Witcher 2 was already semi open world while MGSV is nothing like the other MGS games and they had to start from the ground up with everything.
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But like 80% of MGSV's design framework is built from peace walker.

Peace Walker even had a pseudo open world type thing going for it too, where multiple missions took place on the same maps just had different objectives and enemies.

The only new single player elements MGSV introduces are honestly the buddy system and of course the full open world.
 
Klossen said:
If Witcher 3's gameplay is flawed and unbalanced, does that not mean that the game is unfinished? Where does one draw the line between finished and unfinished? Witcher 3 is still getting patches for its issues months after release. If it's complete and done, why bother releasing post-launch content?

I do think that MGSV is unfinished, but no way in hell will I ever regard Witcher 3 of higher standard considering its countless issues with bugs, performance and gameplay issues since launch. A complete story does not mean s complete game.
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You're blurring the lines between flawed and unfinished. There's plenty of people out there that will say that Witcher's combat is either bad or good. Regardless of whichever you think it is, the core is still there. There aren't major things missing from the Witcher that makes you say "Ahh this game...they left major pieces of the gameplay on the cutting room floor." They had a vision in mind and responded to fan feedback afterwards. Whatever you thought about that combat, good or bad, it does seem like they did what they wanted to. Someone can play 100 hours of the Witcher to completion and feel like they are getting the full experience as intended by the devs, for better or worse. They might have made bad judgement calls along the way and run into technical bugs, but that's stuff can be looked past and worked on going forward. Just as in the same way that I feel Bloodborne is a complete game, even with the frame pacing issues and other technical flaws that need work. It is a cohesive experience.

Whereas I look at Metal Gear and the entire second half and say "What the fuck happened here? Who thought this was okay?" There is no patch that's going to go back and fix the second half of recycled mission, missing ending, etc. Having played 50 hours of the game and finished it, I'm feeling like I played a game that was great for the first half, and then hastily pieced together at the end.

There's a difference between being flawed and making changes based on feedback, and actually having portions of your game feel unsatisfactory and unfixable by any future patch or tweak. Nobody is going to go back and replace the second episode of this game with missions that actually tell a narrative or present anything worthwhile that's new. That's the difference here. It's unfinished and pieced together to try and create some semblance of cohesion through reuse of content. It's missing a cohesive narrative arc throughout, so they dump a bunch of cutscenes and smaller stories they had into the second episode in a convoluted mess with few connective pieces holding it together.
 
snake_eater_raiden said:
So you are indirectly accepting that Kojima was not able to manage the budget lol. He was unable to find a cost effective method for the product.

You do know that he was the producer as well? He had all the budget under his purview.

Are you also aware how companies and finances work?
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Oh, so tell me, do you have the documents lining out how Kojima spent the budget? Do you have direct knowledge that you can back up about how Kojima spent his time? And no, twitter doesn't count. People, even producers, can use Twitter.

You're going pretty hard. And you seem to ignore the fact that Konami has in fact had them under house arrest for almost a year. And in doing so, Konami took out alot of resources for them to use, primarily internet. So they were isolated.

And no, I'm not indirectly accepting anything you spit out, because really I'd rather trust the information we have now regarding the ongoings at Konami then your baseless assumptions.
 
snake_eater_raiden said:
Another classic example of a user who does not read previous posts and jumps on the running train. Please read previous posts to get an idea what we are talking about, Thank you!
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I don't see how Kojima getting fired isn't going to impact the game development in any way. It's clear that the game is unfinished thanks to how Chapter 2 is designed and they couldn't include the epilogue chapter (Ch. 51) into the game? Also, comparing MGSV to The Witcher 3 is kinda pointless, since the games couldn't be any more different?
 
snake_eater_raiden said:
I love this post and the sarcasm. You nailed MGS5 story in just a few lines.

Most MGS fans: Kojima the awesomeness, Kojima the greatest developer of all time, Kojima the great story teller, Kojima this and that.

The Sour Truth: Kojima the bullshit story teller post MGS3.
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lool. Wasn't being sarcastic. I genuinely like the twist and how there is a new Snake born not from Big Boss's genes but his teachings ie his "memes".
 
All this fighting just makes me wonder if we're ever going to get the perfect game, full featured in narrative and gameplay. Are they incompatible? Or would something like that just be ungodly expensive.
 
Lingitiz said:
You're blurring the lines between flawed and unfinished. There's plenty of people out there that will say that Witcher's combat is either bad or good. Regardless of whichever you think it is, the core is still there. There aren't major things missing from the Witcher that makes you say "Ahh this game...they left major pieces of the gameplay on the cutting room floor." They had a vision in mind and responded to fan feedback afterwards. Whatever you thought about that combat, good or bad, it does seem like they did what they wanted to.

Whereas I look at Metal Gear and the entire second half and say "What the fuck happened here? Who thought this was okay?" There is no patch that's going to go back and fix the second half of recycled mission, missing ending, etc.

There's a difference between being flawed and making changes based on feedback, and actually having portions of your game feel unsatisfactory and unfixable by any future patch or tweak.
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But what's to say that Witcher 3's combat wasn't released in an unfinished state if it does have flaws? Especially considering CDPR tweaking it further after release? The only difference would be that in MGS, it's obvious what is unfinished but in Witcher 3, it can only be speculated as gameplay is always harder to judge than story.

And if CDPR actually believed that TW3's combat was ideal before releasing the game, does that not make CDPR, in the eyes of someone who hated the gameplay, incompetent? Where is the difference drawn between flawed and unfinished? What's not to say that CDPR prioritized story while KojiPro went for gameplay in the last months of crunch?

My ultimate point is, don't judge a game by the content missing, but by the content present. And personally, both MGSV and TW3 comes out flawed but in different parts.
 
BreezyLimbo said:
Oh, so tell me, do you have the documents lining out how Kojima spent the budget? Do you have direct knowledge that you can back up about how Kojima spent his time? And no, twitter doesn't count. People, even producers, can use Twitter.

You're going pretty hard. And you seem to ignore the fact that Konami has in fact had them under house arrest for almost a year. And in doing so, Konami took out alot of resources for them to use, primarily internet. So they were isolated.

And no, I'm not indirectly accepting anything you spit out, because really I'd rather trust the information we have now regarding the ongoings at Konami then your baseless assumptions.
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First of all, everything that you just stated about "house arrest" are rumors from websites. There is no official conformation about it. What I said are facts since he did those things.

Nobody is asking you to believe me but the truth is out there. In my opinion and this is going to hit every MGS fan really hard, Kojima failed hard. He nailed the gameplay but forgot that he is making a Metal Gear game. In the end, he is now the worst story teller that people will forget once he leaves Konami. MGS needs a new head, a new direction for the series to move ahead.

Konami deserves a lot of praise for TPP despite the fact that they are awful. They stick with Kojima's vision for almost 3 decades, funded him and were extremely patient. And their patience broke with TPP which is 10000% understandable in my book,
 
Such a lust for development arguments
WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!?


I love how the twist is bringing out some people phantoms out, damn.
 
Arion said:
lool. Wasn't being sarcastic. I genuinely like the twist and how there is a new Snake born not from Big Boss's genes but his teachings.
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Yes but the problem stems from all the stuff you said being completely unestablished and shoehorned in. If the medic was an established character who was Boss' protege it would be much more acceptable but as it is now you're just supposed to take this random nobody that you've never heard about before as some super soldier that the Boss is best buds with even though he's never been mentioned anywhere.
 
Did Quiet on Extreme. Took a couple tried since she fucking one shots you. But I managed to S-Rank her while getting all 4 objectives. Used C-Boxes which will absorb those one-hit-kills for you and used the Rocket Fist. Get about 30-40 meters close and use rocket fist. Will take like 1/8 of her stamina. She then went into the river to heal and I ran up to her and million dollar man punched her and then kicked her in the stomach. I got lucky there. But it was a tense fight.

Not Spaceghost said:
But like 80% of MGSV's design framework is built from peace walker.

Peace Walker even had a pseudo open world type thing going for it too, where multiple missions took place on the same maps just had different objectives and enemies.

The only new single player elements MGSV introduces are honestly the buddy system and of course the full open world.
Click to expand...

Also guys, we really gonna say that going from a PSP game to a cross-gen game open world game is easy? It's like you're saying MGSV is 80% done because Peace Walker exists. You still have to build the game. And just because you have a clear vision and goal doesn't mean you won't run into conflicting design issues that take time to work around and redesign.

If you hate the story, fine, but goddamn people, be reasonable. You're going all Kaz Miller here.
 
Klossen said:
But what's to say that Witcher 3's combat wasn't released in an unfinished state if it does have flaws? Especially considering CDPR tweaking it further after release? The only difference would be that in MGS, it's obvious what is unfinished but in Witcher 3, it can only be speculated as gameplay is always harder to judge than story.

And if CDPR actually believed that TW3's combat was ideal before releasing the game, does that not make CDPR, in the eyes of someone who hated the gameplay, incompetent? Where is the difference drawn between flawed and unfinished? What's not to say that CDPR prioritized story while KojiPro went for gameplay in the last months of crunch?

My ultimate point is, don't judge a game by the content missing, but by the content present. And personally, both MGSV and TW3 comes out flawed but in different parts.
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In this sense your definition of unfinished really is what is outwardly facing the player then. You're right that "unfinished" gameplay is harder to measure, but it is also something that can be iterated on and fixed over time.

Like I said, no one will be able to fix the second half of MGSV. It would be like in Witcher 3 if the game simply ended when you found Ciri and none of the remaining plot threads were tied up.

IMO that kind of "unfinished" leaves a far greater void than something being merely flawed.

At the end of the day they are both great games with different problems and strengths. But I find myself being satisfied with what I got in Witcher 3 and looking at MGSV and saying...damn this game could have been truly perfect if it was done.
 
loaf of bread said:
Yes but the problem stems from all the stuff you said being completely unestablished and shoehorned in. If the medic was an established character who was Boss' protege it would be much more acceptable but as it is now you're just supposed to take this random nobody that you've never heard about before as some super soldier that the Boss is best buds with even though he's never been mentioned anywhere.
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Same thing happened is MGS2. Sine when is introducing new characters a bad thing?
 
Lingitiz said:
This statement makes no sense.

It absolutely does change. The mechanics mean nothing if there are no interesting things to do with them. And the second episode of this game is mostly the same missions that you've already done on harder difficulties. I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy some of them, but damn is it awful design.
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You specifically said "It's not just the story that is incomplete but literally the gameplay. The entire second half is recycled content!" The gameplay is as complete as it's ever going to be, the mechanics work together and form a playable game.... what you're talking about is content, having nothing to do with the gameplay mechanics, but this is semantics. I, equally, think there's plenty to "do" in the game even though it uses the same gameplay mechanics and locations to do it, even with the recycled missions (which I haven't even touched and have no plans to).
 
snake_eater_raiden said:
First of all, everything that you just stated about "house arrest" are rumors from websites. There is no official conformation about it. What I said are facts since he did those things.

Nobody is asking you to believe me but the truth is out there. In my opinion and this is going to hit every MGS fan really hard, Kojima failed hard. He nailed the gameplay but forgot that he is making a Metal Gear game. In the end, he is now the worst story teller that people will forget once he leaves Konami. MGS needs a new head, a new direction for the series to move ahead.

Konami deserves a lot of praise for TPP despite the fact that they are awful. They stick with Kojima's vision for almost 3 decades, funded him and were extremely patient. And their patience broke with TPP which is 10000% understandable in my book,
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You claimed he mismanaged the budget and held parties for Quiets VA.(No, that behind the scenes video with Quiets VA doesn't count.)

Then provide proof for that, both things, and you obviously know how much was spent on Keifer. Until then...lol.
 
Doctor_Thomas said:
You specifically said "It's not just the story that is incomplete but literally the gameplay. The entire second half is recycled content!" The gameplay is as complete as it's ever going to be, the mechanics work together and form a playable game.... what you're talking about is content, having nothing to do with the gameplay mechanics, but this is semantics. I, equally, think there's plenty to "do" in the game even though it uses the same gameplay mechanics and locations to do it, even with the recycled missions (which I haven't even touched and have no plans to).
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I think gameplay mechanics and content go hand in hand. If every mission in MGSV was you doing the same thing then the gameplay would be bad.

It is semantics though. Maybe I misworded myself. I regard mechanics and what you do (content) with them as the overarching "gameplay."
 
SuperStiltzkin said:
Did Quiet on Extreme. Took a couple tried since she fucking one shots you. But I managed to S-Rank her while getting all 4 objectives. Used C-Boxes which will absorb those one-hit-kills for you and used the Rocket Fist. Get about 30-40 meters close and use rocket fist. Will take like 1/8 of her stamina. She then went into the river to heal and I ran up to her and million dollar man punched her and then kicked her in the stomach. I got lucky there. But it was a tense fight.



Also guys, we really gonna say that going from a PSP game to a cross-gen game open world game is easy? It's like you're saying MGSV is 80% done because Peace Walker exists. You still have to build the game. And just because you have a clear vision and goal doesn't mean you won't run into conflicting design issues that take time to work around and redesign.

If you hate the story, fine, but goddamn people, be reasonable. You're going all Kaz Miller here.
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Well I can't help it, I feel like I've been played like a damn fiddle!
 
Really really sucks that development doesn't continue when you are out of the game been waiting on this nuke for a long time looks like I'll just sit in the ACC and let it happen overnight
 
MGSV is about as unfinished as Soul Reaver. Its a great game still, but yeah there is so much wrong with it.

Reveal out of nowhere, bam. Replay the tutorial, like, learn how to move the right stick again. Thats hilarious. Chapter 1 takes hours to beat and has no repeats, suddenly there is a chapter 2 with only a handful of original missions and repeats that aren't needed to beat but its unclear to the player who might crush his controller during Mission 42 or something. After 46 there is still 4 missions, but they are there for shit. Beat mission 50 and... nothing. Why is Chapter 2 called Race? Because it ends so fast? Wait, it actually doesn't really end.

The kingdom of the flies sounded like a decent ending to the Eli arc, which is the only major character that doesn't have an ending in this game as of now.

Then, other parts that are directed so weird, such as the car scene and the theme being slapped on there for whatever reason. But most of the cutscenes feel as if they're being inserted at the last minute. Some sequences don't make sense, Quiet saves necklace, Quiet gets tortured. It didn't hit me.

This is a troubled release and we'll likely learn more about it in the future. Which also makes it sort of fascinating.
 
Damn this thread took an ugly turn.

I think this illustrates the downside of showing off cut content. A lot of these arguments are informed by the very fact we know Mission 51 existed at one point and now it doesn't. Obviously, there is a lot of other evidence that Chapter 2 was rushed, but seeing it in the form of a 30% cutscene made it really hit home. You couple that with the other trailers - which over the course of three years, showed way too much - and it's going to lead to a sense that we missed out on a lot.

That being said, I don't know how you can trash this whole game or Kojima. The gameplay is fucking impeccable. I love Witcher 3, but it was nowhere near this caliber in game mechanics and the number of options you have at your disposal moment-to-moment. In fact, Witcher 3's gameplay is definitely its weakest component. And even TW3 suffers from the feeling that there is a lot of content missing in its last act (the game just decides to end out of nowhere too). It just wasn't documented to the extent that MGSV was.
 
Death Metalist said:
At the end of the day, we can all agree that the gameplay is sublime which is what's most important in a video game.



Somebody should shop that.
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Indeed. Gameplay is amazing :D

BreezyLimbo said:
You claimed he mismanaged the budget and held parties for Quiets VA.(No, that behind the scenes video with Quiets VA doesn't count.)

Then provide proof for that, both things, and you obviously know how much was spent on Keifer. Until then...lol.
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Duh...a fan in denial. Google search.

There is no point in this debate. You can be stuck with that so called story teller. I am looking forward to what Konami brings with the next MGS. I am sure it will be amazing.
 
Lingitiz said:
In this sense your definition of unfinished really is what is outwardly facing the player then. You're right that "unfinished" gameplay is harder to measure, but it is also something that can be iterated on and fixed over time.

Like I said, no one will be able to fix the second half of MGSV. It would be like in Witcher 3 if the game simply ended when you found Ciri and none of the remaining plot threads were tied up.

IMO that kind of "unfinished" leaves a far greater void than something being merely flawed.
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Yeah I guess it's all about player and dev priorities. I personally didn't even reach the finale of TW3 because I disliked the gameplay so much. Yet I'm still playing MGSV long after the story "ended". Neither of them came off as complete to me but it's MGSV that I keep on playing because of the gameplay. Which is the better game? It boils down to priorities.

I will say though that an MGSV with a coherent plot that followed its gameplay would've been one hell of a game. It makes me sad that the story didn't conclude properly. But saying the game is unfinished undermines all the great things this game is doing that no other game does. It has parts more complete and parts less complete than other open-world games.
 
snake_eater_raiden said:
Indeed. Gameplay is amazing :D



Duh...a fan in denial. Google search.

There is no point in this debate. You can be stuck with that so called story teller. I am looking forward to what Konami brings with the next MGS. I am sure it will be amazing.
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You're the one making the claims. It's on you to provide proof lol.
 
Tookay said:
Damn this thread took an ugly turn.

I think this illustrates the downside of showing off cut content. A lot of these arguments are informed by the very fact we know Mission 51 existed at one point and now it doesn't. Obviously, there is a lot of other evidence that Chapter 2 was rushed, but seeing it in the form of a 30% cutscene made it really hit home. You couple that with the other trailers - which over the course of three years, showed way too much - and it's going to lead to a sense that we missed out on a lot.

That being said, I don't know how you can trash this whole game or Kojima. The gameplay is fucking impeccable. I love Witcher 3, but it was nowhere near this caliber in game mechanics and the number of options you have at your disposal moment-to-moment. In fact, Witcher 3's gameplay is definitely its weakest component. And even TW3 suffers from the feeling that there is a lot of content missing in its last act (the game just decides to end out of nowhere too). It just wasn't documented to the extent that MGSV was.
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TW3's last quarter felt rushed, and there were some late game choices forcefeeded in that completely decided what ending you would get. But it does strike me as a more cohesive package.
 
Reebot said:
That sentence is almost as forced as Kojima's writing.
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836.gif
 
CambriaRising said:
FOB could have been cut. Kojima is not the one who wanted that over story important scenes, I guarantee you that much.
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FOB was developed by the LA studio which reported directly to Kojima. Konami only cares about the end product since they are publishing the game. Do you have any idea how the industry works?

The lack of knowledge in this thread is disgusting. I am out for now.
 
Can someone mod Ocelot to replace Quiet in her rain-dance and shower scene?
 
Klossen said:
Yeah I guess it's all about player and dev priorities. I personally didn't even reach the finale of TW3 because I disliked the gameplay so much. Yet I'm still playing MGSV long after the story "ended". Neither of them came off as complete to me but it's MGSV that I keep on playing because of the gameplay. Which is the better game? It boils down to priorities.

I will say though that an MGSV with a coherent plot that followed its gameplay would've been one hell of a game. It makes me sad that the story didn't conclude properly. But saying the game is unfinished undermines all the great things this game is doing that no other game does. It has parts more complete and parts less complete than other open-world games.
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Oh no don't get me wrong - this is probably the best stealth game ever made. I'm looking at other games with emergent gameplay like FarCry and this outdoes them all. It is fucking incredible what they achieved with the sandbox in this game.

It's just disappointing to see this game with so many amazing aspects to it, undermined by things that could be so much better.
 
snake_eater_raiden said:
Indeed. Gameplay is amazing :D



Duh...a fan in denial. Google search.
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Is this your defense? Someone doesn't see it your way, they're a fan in denial. Says a lot about you and your argument.

Not Spaceghost said:
But like 80% of MGSV's design framework is built from peace walker.

Peace Walker even had a pseudo open world type thing going for it too, where multiple missions took place on the same maps just had different objectives and enemies.

The only new single player elements MGSV introduces are honestly the buddy system and of course the full open world.
Click to expand...

It's an entirely revamped gameplay system. Peace walker and mgs5 play nothing alike. 80 percent similar? How'd you arrive at that number?
 
SolVanderlyn said:
One thing I love is that you can even see the difference in personality between the real BB and Venom based on their expressions. Boss always has this determined, burning ambition and confidence to him.

TPPBigBossPP.png


Venom comes off as more reserved and thoughtful. Still the kind of guy who'd be a good leader, and still of course very similar to BB, but his loyal soldier persona shows through more clearly than the strong leader presence BB has.

MGSV-E3-Trailer-Big-Boss-Watch.jpg
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BB would have totally murdered all the child soldiers rather than saving them.

BB would have cut Liquid's arm rather than just dislocating it.
 
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