Support NeoGAF

[Death Metalist]

Quiet wears no clothes because she needs to breathe through her skin via Photosynthesis. The End operates similarly but wears clothes.

I think you missed the part where BB burnt her ass in the prologue and thus she resorted to using the parasites on her body.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

The Venom Snake thingo would be more interest if it wasn't telegraphed blatantly to the audience going all the way back to the original reveal, culminating with the goddamn opening, which consists of facemaker.exe, mysterious Keifer bandage man, and a song about a doppleganger playing in the background. There was no subtltity. It was so obvious you're not actually Big Boss that a part of me was hoping you were and it was a deliberate double ruse.

And I think this is a theme the game really faltered with. You have this fairly surreal opening sequence with fire whales and flaming Volgan and Psycho Mantis and a delirious maybe-it-is-maybe-it-isn't Snake, mysterious bandage man, etc. And then stuff in the trailers like that shot where Venom is talking to Skull Face and also has an apparition of him on Mother Base that got everyone talking.

I don't know about you guys, but the impression I got from early media was that the line between fact/fiction was going to be blurrier and the game would play heavily on themes of surreal and hallucinations. Like an odd, unsettling vibe to the whole thing.

What we got was something oddly straight down the road. Everything was explained outright and kinda boring and dull. And Venom isn't actually Big Boss like you expected, so clap clap. The end.

Yep, I feel the same. Kojima has never been subtle, but this was a huge, glaring, glowing neon sign saying "YOU ARE NOT BIG BOSS." I don't know how it was surprising to anyone.

I actually love the twist in concept, but it was carried out without nuance. It could have been done much better (much like Venom's character itself - the few instances of characterization we get are great, but his general silence is extremely off-putting.)

 

[EatChildren]

Liquid being Miller twist
Kojima completely misunderstanding how dominant and recessive genes work
Ocelot threatening Snake with Meryl's life to get him to talk, then immediately turning around and telling him that if he gives up he'll kill Meryl. Way to incentivize Snake shutting up, Ocelot.
The way FOX-DIE affects Liquid and Solid. I read that Naomi programmed the virus to be a wild-card in the sense that it could affect them randomly, which makes no sense because then it's possible for Solid to die before actually completing the mission, except of course this never happens though it kills Liquid at the most convenient time
Liquid lets Meryl be tortured to the point of death and then programs a bomb to detonate when she dies. wtf?

Of course MGS1 makes more sense than say MGS4's epilogue: on the list of crazy MGS stories it's pretty tame. But I'm still not comfortable saying it's logically coherent.

Kojima science is the worst.

It's fun.

But it's the worst.

 

[Kenzodielocke]

I didn't really scour the trailers for details, but I did watch them, which I knew was a dumb idea. I've conditioned myself to be really sensitive towards trailer material (irrespective of the medium). I'll remember almost all of it, and any subsequent trailers, and subconsciously patch together a timeline.

To be fair though Kojima really did spoil almost everything the trailers.

plus he spoiled cutscenes that weren't even in the games, such genius.

 

[Dawg]

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/...-metal-gear-solid-v-the-phantom-pain-bug.aspx

THE TROJAN HORSE IS IN PLACE

Spoiler

THIS PIRATE CRACKDOWN IS A GO

 

[Nemesis_]

I think you missed the part where BB burnt her ass in the prologue and thus she resorted to using the parasites on her body.

So? The fundamentals of the parasites were also what powered The End and The Pain. The former was awfully similar to Quiet (it's elaborated on as such in the tapes).

 

[Jarmel]

There's no escalation of tension leading to the twist. You exile Huey, Miller marvels at your restraint, and then it just shows up on the mission list. When you start the mission, it jumps straight into flashback, and spends a ton of time on you waking up from a coma and staring at nurses yet again.

If you compare it to how twists are deployed in Bioshock, Spec Ops, or MGS2, it's incredibly lacking.

Not to mention there's no sense of resolution even after the twist. All those games not only have this major twist but go on to explain why it's important or done. With MGSV, you get some cassettes and Big Boss punching a mirror. It's handled in the most haphazard manner possible.

 

[Ralemont]

I never really thought about the last two but the first two seemed fairly straightforward to me. What didn't you think made sense about Miller? In retrospect I guess maybe they should've confirmed that Miller was who he said he was before enlisting on the mission

As for the gene stuff I also assumed that the misunderstanding with how genes worked was Liquids own misunderstanding and not Kojimas. Ultimately it didn't matter in the end.

I wish I was sober and on a computer so I could discuss this better 🌚

Like no one on this super secret mission confirms they are talking to Miller? How did that happen? And Liquid can completely mimic all of Miller's mannerisms and his voice so convincingly that Solid is fooled? That's fine with no surgery or hypotherapy involved, but we're not ok with Venom being turned into BB?

As for the genes, Liquid has clearly done research on genes, even bringing up Selfish Gene theory and such. You learn about dominant and recessive genes in Human Genetics 101 so even introductory research would have changed Liquid's understanding of how genes work.

 

[Nemesis_]

Like no one on this super secret mission confirms they are talking to Miller? How did that happen? And Liquid can completely mimic all of Miller's mannerisms and his voice so convincingly that Solid is fooled? That's fine with no surgery or hypotherapy involved, but we're not ok with Venom being turned into BB?

As for the genes, Liquid has clearly done research on genes, even bringing up Selfish Gene theory and such. You learn about dominant and recessive genes in Human Genetics 101 so even introductory research would have changed Liquid's understanding of how genes work.

I'll pay these, then.

 

[Death Metalist]

So? The fundamentals of the parasites were also what powered The End and The Pain. The former was awfully similar to Quiet (it's elaborated on as such in the tapes).

Unless The End and The Pain were burnt to a crisp then I could see that. However, thinking about it more The Fury probably should have been naked lmao.

 

[Vyse The Legend]

So did I but it was still fairly obvious where things were going. It's almost like an M Night film where you know a twist is coming so you're doing everything you can to work it out.

It didn't help they were so fucking blatant about it in the opening chapters.

Meh. After MGS2 and 3 for that matter, I think we've come to expect crazy twists from Kojima, and as such, become better at picking up the signs and piecing theories together. Just because the twist here is telegraphed didn't make it any less entertaining. It's about the journey sometimes, not the end.

I didn't really scour the trailers for details, but I did watch them, which I knew was a dumb idea. I've conditioned myself to be really sensitive towards trailer material (irrespective of the medium). I'll remember almost all of it, and any subsequent trailers, and subconsciously patch together a timeline.

To be fair though Kojima really did spoil almost everything the trailers.

He definitely did. If you saw any trailers past the first one, you basically got all the cutscenes in the game. You can even tell that the real BB in the trailer looks different than Venom.

 

[Nemesis_]

Unless The End and The Pain were burnt to a crisp then I could see that. However, thinking about it more The Fury probably should have been naked lmao.

The only ones they mention The End (blatantly) and The Pain (subtly, with a tape that talks about controlling insects)

Parasites were really the precursors to both nanomachines and FOXDIE lol

 

[Anth0ny]

hey guys

the big boss in this game had a big fucking spike sticking out of his head that can't be removed

pretty sure no other big boss has that

 

[Rockman Wright]

I guess not seeing any of the trailers worked in my favor. I went in completely fresh, and left thoroughly satisfied.

same here! I just watched all the trailer now and it's crazy how much content they show, almost all cutscene are partially there! Glad i watched the first 2013 trailer only

 

[Sub_Level]

The way FOX-DIE affects Liquid and Solid. I read that Naomi programmed the virus to be a wild-card in the sense that it could affect them randomly, which makes no sense because then it's possible for Solid to die before actually completing the mission, except of course this never happens though it kills Liquid at the most convenient time

That makes sense though. Naomi didn't care about completing the mission so much as she just wanted to kill Snake. Liquid dying before shooting Snake is convenient but so is him surviving both a huge fall and a car crash in a 10 minute timespan so it evens out!

 

[Nemesis_]

hey guys

the big boss in this game had a big fucking spike sticking out of his head that can't be removed

pretty sure no other big boss has that

I just assumed SOMETHING would happen to have it removed or retconned like any of the other changes they've made to the mythos throughout the franchise.

 

[Xpike]

hey guys

the big boss in this game had a big fucking spike sticking out of his head that can't be removed

pretty sure no other big boss has that

pretty sure no other big boss would let himself be bit by a snake

venom snake failed basic survival training

 

[CHC]

So much for "bridging the gap" between the games. The end makes even more of a mess. I'd have LESS questions about what happened between Peace Walker and Metal Gear 1 if this game had never come out haha

 

[Ralemont]

Kojima science is the worst.

It's fun.

But it's the worst.

And I want to be clear that I love this shit, but "making sense" is something that I never expect from this series. It's why I engage the Venom twist on a theoretical level instead of how it's practically possible. I just think that's a long road to nowhere when it comes to MGS.

That makes sense though. Naomi didn't care about completing the mission so much as she just wanted to kill Snake. Liquid dying before shooting Snake is convenient but so is him surviving both a huge fall and a car crash in a 10 minute timespan so it evens out!

But the virus was already programmed to kill both Snakes, that was the mission plan all along. So why did she alter it to affect them randomly?

 

[Anth0ny]

I just assumed SOMETHING would happen to have it removed or retconned like any of the other changes they've made to the mythos throughout the franchise.

 

[SnakeLinkSonic]

Where's the supercut of Code Talker saying "Vocal Cord Parasites" 18,000 times?

 

[Nemesis_]

Do people really not think that MGS5, it's twist, doesn't make sense? It's fairly easy to comprehend. Heck if you can work out and comprehend the way MGS2 plays out you should be able to work out anything.

I feel like it's more up for debate as to how important and worthwhile the twist is. And it really isn't.

 

[Broken Joystick]

pretty sure no other big boss would let himself be bit by a snake

venom snake failed basic survival training

Real Big Boss ain't scared of nothing https://youtu.be/nf6hRFXlQco?t=29s

Do people really not think that MGS5, it's twist, doesn't make sense? It's fairly easy to comprehend. Heck if you can work out and comprehend the way MGS2 plays out you should be able to work out anything.

I feel like it's more up for debate as to how important and worthwhile the twist is. And it really isn't.

I think most people know it makes sense, it's just wholly uneventful and feels like a twist for the sake of a twist.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

Do people really not think that MGS5, it's twist, doesn't make sense? It's fairly easy to comprehend. Heck if you can work out and comprehend the way MGS2 plays out you should be able to work out anything.

I feel like it's more up for debate as to how important and worthwhile the twist is. And it really isn't.

I don't think people would be as upset with the "worthless" nature of the story in series canon if the trailers and marketing didn't sell it as the all-important missing link in the story.

 

[throwawayname]

I just assumed SOMETHING would happen to have it removed or retconned like any of the other changes they've made to the mythos throughout the franchise.

Why not just cut it to his skin and paint over it with a skin color sharpie? So easy and you dont even need a Big Medic.

 

[Xpike]

So much for "bridging the gap" between the games. The end makes even more of a mess. I'd have LESS questions about what happened between Peace Walker and Metal Gear 1 if this game had never come out haha

The end more or less says "Nothing in this game really mattered, everything important either already happened or is being done by the actual protagonist of the game, have fun getting killed by Solid Snake later!"

 

[Nemesis_]

I think most people know it makes sense, it's just wholly uneventful and feels like a twist for the sake of a twist.

I don't think people would be as upset with the "worthless" nature of the story in series canon if the trailers and marketing didn't sell it as the all-important missing link in the story.

Yeah, and this is my issue with it.

Why not just cut it to his skin and paint over it with a skin color sharpie? So easy and you dont even need a Big Medic.

Dead

 

[Anung]

The ending was obvious and stupidly foreshadowed I struggle to even consider it a twist ending. It was so obvious that I refused to believe that Kojima wasn't pulling one over on us. I think I gave him too much credit...I mean an M. Night twist has more subtlety that what we got.

 

[hamchan]

Do people really not think that MGS5, it's twist, doesn't make sense? It's fairly easy to comprehend. Heck if you can work out and comprehend the way MGS2 plays out you should be able to work out anything.

I feel like it's more up for debate as to how important and worthwhile the twist is. And it really isn't.

Exactly. It changes nothing for future events. The impact it has on the canon is near zero. There is no added depth to the series here. It's not very important and worthwhile for the series as a whole.
It's why when people go "Oh man I sure hope it wasn't the fake Big Boss that met this future character", I just laugh since it makes no difference at all which one it was.

 

[Ralemont]

Venom himself doesn't change all that much about the canon, and I think his character was meant to be more of a fourth-wall message, but I do think the Zero stuff we get in this game helps contextualize the Zero/BB backstory a bit more. He actually sounds like the good guy from MGS3 again.

 

[Broken Joystick]

Urgh, just spent about 20 minutes chasing a transport truck driver around Africa to listen to his conversations with guards.
Can't get too close otherwise Skulls jump out and zombie-fy everyone.
Can't be too far away because the dialogue doesn't trigger (wtf?).
Missed one of the sentences (wish there was an option to click binoculars instead of holding the button) and failed the mission.

Have to do it all again.
For one side mission
;__;

 

[JimPanzer]

Is the cutscene with the raven and snake in africa in the game? must have missed it if so

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I'd argue it fleshes out some characters. Zero and Liquid, most importantly.

 

[Nemesis_]

Venom himself doesn't change all that much about the canon, and I think his character was meant to be more of a fourth-wall message, but I do think the Zero stuff we get in this game helps contextualize the Zero/BB backstory a bit more. He actually sounds like the good guy from MGS3 again.

I totally agree with this too! But it's kind of shitty that such an important part of the storyline is just relegated to what will be an ostensibly optional storyline component that some players won't even reach.

It's kind of like Peace Walker all over again, it that regard.

 

[Xpike]

I'd argue it fleshes out some characters. Zero and Liquid, most importantly.

Liquid went from whiny brat to whiny brat. I don't think his appearance did much for him.

 

[Ralemont]

Quiet wears no clothes because she needs to breathe through her skin via Photosynthesis. The End operates similarly but wears clothes.

The End's lungs still work. He uses photosynthesis to prolong his life, I don't think it's ever mentioned he uses it to regularly breathe?

Switching gears, I think the Venom/Quiet relationship is such a good emotional center for the game, and it's a shame it gets muddled a bit by all the perverted stuff. I really think that if she wore normal clothes the whole game then the rain scene (without the pandering camera) would have been really beautiful, just letting the rain wash away the blood and finding time for some simple joy in the middle of a mercenary base. I haven't even done the end to her story but I'ma tear up a bit when it happens, I think. Some of the story logic is broken, though; the torture scene feels very out of place with how her character had being going up till then. And Venom is going to let it happen? I don't think so, not based on what we've seen until then. Very weird scene.

 

[JawzPause]

I just read the whole wiki entry on big boss, very interesting read.
I'm really curious to know which story MGS6 will follow

 

[EatChildren]

Why are we still debating?

Just to suffer?

 

[Palmer27]

hey guys

the big boss in this game had a big fucking spike sticking out of his head that can't be removed

pretty sure no other big boss has that

I pictured the shrapnel burrowing out of bb's head throughout the game, so that horn grows longer as bb becomes a demon, presumably falling out before MGS. I should probably be Kojima

 

[Anung]

Why are we still debating?

Just to suffer?

It feels like debating is all I have left, It's the only way to rationalize the disappointment. A Phantom Pain...

 

[Broken Joystick]

I just read the whole wiki entry on big boss, very interesting read.
I'm really curious to know which story MGS6 will follow

Straight reboot.
Any chance of Konami trying to tackle Kojima's universe will be met be straight backlash from reviewers.

 

[Death Metalist]

Exactly. It changes nothing for future events. The impact it has on the canon is near zero. There is no added depth to the series here. It's not very important and worthwhile for the series as a whole.
It's why when people go "Oh man I sure hope it wasn't the fake Big Boss that met this future character", I just laugh since it makes no difference at all which one it was.

MGSV was just Kojima's chance of making his final MGS game the way he always wanted to do it. An open world infiltration game where you can approach any situation in many different ways with tons of tools at your disposal.

Heck, the collectors edition guide first page has like a long ass essay about how badly he always wanted to make MGS in the scale that V is but never being able to do so because of the limitations.

 

[CambriaRising]

Straight reboot.
Any chance of Konami trying to tackle Kojima's universe will be met be straight backlash from reviewers.

Finally, the Snakes Revenge sequel we've all been waiting for.

 

[onepiecefan]

Yh I'm not really seeing people arguing that it doesn't make sense, more the fact it's somewhat underwhelming a twist and as has been said, the fact the story feels pretty darn meaningless.

 

[aly]

I'd argue it fleshes out some characters. Zero and Liquid, most importantly.

Wut? What about Liquid was fleshed out? He was whiny and bad at biology as a kid and as an adult. Nothing really changed. Maybe if they made him not know about the clones, warming up to Venom and then Ocelot telling him the truth at MB and then him slowly getting angry. But they did'nt and he just starts off that way.

 

[hamchan]

I just read the whole wiki entry on big boss, very interesting read.
I'm really curious to know which story MGS6 will follow

Hopefully it's all new characters in an all new story not related to this current story. It's not because I care about the sanctity of Kojima's story too.
I just think that every bit has been squeezed out from these characters and their story, every time period covered, it really is just a great opportunity to start fresh.

Or they can remake Metal Gear 1 and 2 first I dunno.

MGSV was just Kojima's chance of making his final MGS game the way he always wanted to do it. An open world infiltration game where you can approach any situation in many different ways with tons of tools at your disposal.

Heck, the collectors edition guide first page has like a long ass essay about how badly he always wanted to make MGS in the scale that V is but never being able to do so because of the limitations.

Yep. I feel he ran out of story a long time ago and he didn't have enough in him to create a worthwhile new story for Metal Gear. Gameplay wise though, it felt like he fulfilled most of his dreams with this game. He nailed it.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Wut? What about Liquid was fleshed out? He was whiny and bad at biology as a kid and as an adult. Nothing really changed. Maybe if they made him not know about the clones, warming up to Venom and then Ocelot telling him the truth at MB and then him slowly getting angry. But they did'nt and he just starts off that way.

And it solidifies Liquid as the whiniest brat in MGS.

 

[CoolCat]

Thanks for the replies guys! I think we'll need a couple of weeks to fully sort out exactly what happened, similar to Bioshock Infinite, there is a lot to analyze here. Christ, we should put together a MGS-GAF Unit to work out a comprehensible theory and explanations. Written with critical standards of an academic research paper from Oxford, becasue thats the minial requirements needed to sort this out.

And if this 9/11 extra game/content rumor is true? May god have mercy upon our shattered minds...

 

[JawzPause]

Hopefully it's all new characters in an all new story not related to this current story. It's not because I care about the sanctity of Kojima's story too.
I just think that every bit has been squeezed out from these characters and their story, every time period covered, it really is just a great opportunity to start fresh.

Or they can remake Metal Gear 1 and 2 first I dunno.

I agree although i will miss the mgs universe, there really isn't anything out there like it.

A remake for MG1&2 would be good seeing as most people haven't played the originals, mgs fans included.

 

[aly]

And it solidifies Liquid as the whiniest brat in MGS.

But we already knew that. Only new thing we got is that is that he and Mantis were mind buddies.

Liquid. Solidifies. I see what's happening here.