PassiveObserver
Member
It's using the tragic death of a child to mock others, not the kid himself. But what you see is what you see.
Charlie Hebdo publishes cartoon of drowned Syrian toddler, "Muslims sink"
- Thread starter The Technomancer
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It's using the tragic death of a child to mock others, not the kid himself. But what you see is what you see.
How dare you let facts get in the way of a good 'I find this offensive!!!!' kneejerk... Shameful.
I'm not sure I get what the joke would be in that case. I think it's tasteless to use that image, but I don't understand how it's anti-Muslim.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
"facts"?
Count Dookkake
Member
This is the story of pretty much every outcry against "offensive" art, particularly involving religion.
As a french who knows Charlie Hebdo quite enough, this is not generous at all, but exactly that. Not that I like that cartoon though.
hobblygobbly
Member
You can argue it's in bad taste given the situation to do it now (and it is - not saying it isn't in bad taste but any political cartoon has to be done at the right "time") but they are not mocking Muslims or the sufferers themselves but in fact many Europeans and/or Christians in Europe with their view on the refugees. It is being critical of Europeans themselves, particularly Christian values. If you explain the context of this to a right wing European and a refugee, who do you think will be upset? The right wing European because this is who it is mocking and using the situation of the refugees to prove the point. The cartoon is criticising Europeans and using the fact of events of late to depict it.
Do people just look at seeing the refugee child and stop at that? It's clear as day it's criticism of Europe (specifically Christianity).
Do people just look at seeing the refugee child and stop at that? It's clear as day it's criticism of Europe (specifically Christianity).
Haven't their cartoons always been THIS offensive? i mean, obviously a massacre is not fucking excusable for this level of edgy "satire", but it's not like these guys ever were respectful to anybody, i personally find sickening that they seek out to be this offensive, but hey, freedom of speech.
I don't like it, i'll speak my mind about it, but damn, i'll defend their right to be asses and my right to call them out, that's how it works.
I don't like it, i'll speak my mind about it, but damn, i'll defend their right to be asses and my right to call them out, that's how it works.
This is what I see. The McDonald's sign is pointing to how "cheap" food is, yet we can't share the wealth with people dying on our borders with out some severe conflict, and even then, only sparingly. If they don't have anything of worth oh well, we'll wait til it's too late to react.
I mean if you look at the images without thinking whatsoever I can see how they look offensive, but it's clear that they are being critical of Europe here, and not laughing at dead children... rather the opposite.
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See that's not how I'm interpreting it. "Walking on water" is an impossible task so of course a child couldn't do it. The fact that here Jesus can is absurd. Which, in my opinion, is the point of the piece. So in my mind is mocking the absurdity of the double standard in regards to preference over Syrian refugees.
I don't really care they're like trolls. Its in poor taste racist and not even funny. It's almost as bad as ctrl alt del. But to people saying"no sympathy" now...what do you mean? What sympathy would ever go to a cartoon pub for what reason? Are you implying that if they're killed they will get no sympathy from you? ....
GhostTrick
Banned
The drawing gets clear when you have French context, especially about some mayors claiming to only accept christians migrants and not muslims.
What would the joke be. In all honesty, like, if you stop and spend some time analyzing this, what exactly are they making fun of.
That muslim babies can't walk on water, as opposed to?
That muslim babies weight more than Jesus and/or don't float?
That Jesus could beat a muslim baby in a contest of holding his breath underwater?
What exactly is the outrage here, other than "I don't like Charlie Hebdo, this must be racist".
Right. Exactly.
Corronchilejano
Member
I mean, it's right there dude.
I'm on the side that doesn't understand how anyone would think they're making fun of the dead children. The Jesus one obviously points out that things would be different coming from a christian or jewish country (or inmigrants of that those religions). The McDonalds one? Remember that the little boys brother (and mother) also died. There's no picture of him though.
that's one way to tell everyone you don't know what satire is
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I'm not sure why people are saying that it must be an ironic jab at local governments. Its because the cartoon, on its surface, isn't funny, and adding that irony makes it more entertaining? Because political cartoons are frequently both unfunny and unironically express some really ugly sentiments, and I don't know why this deserves benefit of the doubt
Sir Abacus
Member
Middle aged french men with a hint of power being racist and xenophobic? I'm shocked, SHOCKED!
Rereading the quote, yes, that makes more sense than what I originally thought. I still am not a fan, but I see the double-standard (one would hope) it's attempting to address.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
The joke is super obvious. "You hear about that kid who drowned?" "Yeah I guess Muslims can't walk on water"
It's not irony it's absurdist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surreal_humour
Yeah, it's not very good. It's vague unless you really analyse it
This isn't a joke. Unless Jesus and the Flash were the two in this conversation.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Could be a language/culture barrier but my initial thought was that this was a play on the old Salem style witch hunts. "Oh I guess they aren't witches after all since they can drown..." It seems to be poking a stick at the people who are demonizing Muslim immigrants, not the Muslims themselves.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
There's not benefit out doubt, the intention is pretty obvious that it's anti-EU in their handling of the refugee situation.
Satire:
You don't know what satire is.
GhostTrick
Banned
No, really, it's all about context because here in France, a mayor claimed that he will only accept christians migrants. Not muslims. The joke being that, for these mayors who only accept christians refugees, christians are allowed to cross water and muslims can drown.
Simply because we have the context in mind. I mean, I can understand why someone can be offensed without really local context (in that text, a mayor of a small french town). Also, I don't really think this drawing is good or funny. But the point being, there's a context behind that picture.
As others have said: they're not making fun of kids. It's not even meant as a funny cartoon - most of the Charlie Hebdo stuff isn't. They're about the major issue of complete indifference among most Europeans about the fate of the people and children fleeing and dying just for a chance of a sane life. I don't know if it's in the news in the US a lot, but it's pretty much daily news here (and it resulted in me avoiding Facebook altogether because of people I always thought off as sane, normal folks posting horrible bullshit - as if those people are doing this just to get a bit of easy money out of us).
It's fine if you think this is too shocking or overshooting the point, and that's a fair standpoint (I think CH crossed the line many times in the past - not this time though). But you should understand that Charlie Hebdo, as weird as it may sound, is not primarily in the business of making you laugh. Definitely when they tackle major human rights issues like this. It's about holding a dark mirror opposite ourselves, rather than 'the other' (in this case - not always). They're fueled by anger about social injustice more than some need to make people laugh.
I'm not trying to come across as a CH apologist because they've published plenty of shit that was more damaging than helpful, but in this case I can't blame them. It's shocking - yes. But it should be. This shit has been going on for way too long over here now, and when pictures and clips of drowned kids washing ashore started to surface people actually thought more of us would actually start to care, and they didn't. This cartoon is mostly about how fucked up that is.
Again, it's not trying to make a particularly deep point. It's just trying to illustrate how fucked up the attitude of a lot of people here (including, I'm sure, part of their readership) is right now. If we allow actually pictures of these kids to be used in debates in newspapers and talkshows (and we do, and I agree with that - the truth must be seen, as fucked up as it is), we should be able to allow cartoons like this. This might just have the effect of some people thinking twice about how they're reacting to all of this. It might not. But we need as many voices as possible speaking out about it. They did the right thing with this cartoon.
It's fine if you think this is too shocking or overshooting the point, and that's a fair standpoint (I think CH crossed the line many times in the past - not this time though). But you should understand that Charlie Hebdo, as weird as it may sound, is not primarily in the business of making you laugh. Definitely when they tackle major human rights issues like this. It's about holding a dark mirror opposite ourselves, rather than 'the other' (in this case - not always). They're fueled by anger about social injustice more than some need to make people laugh.
I'm not trying to come across as a CH apologist because they've published plenty of shit that was more damaging than helpful, but in this case I can't blame them. It's shocking - yes. But it should be. This shit has been going on for way too long over here now, and when pictures and clips of drowned kids washing ashore started to surface people actually thought more of us would actually start to care, and they didn't. This cartoon is mostly about how fucked up that is.
Again, it's not trying to make a particularly deep point. It's just trying to illustrate how fucked up the attitude of a lot of people here (including, I'm sure, part of their readership) is right now. If we allow actually pictures of these kids to be used in debates in newspapers and talkshows (and we do, and I agree with that - the truth must be seen, as fucked up as it is), we should be able to allow cartoons like this. This might just have the effect of some people thinking twice about how they're reacting to all of this. It might not. But we need as many voices as possible speaking out about it. They did the right thing with this cartoon.
aka "I still don't get it"
D
Deleted member 1159
Unconfirmed Member
My first reaction: it's taking a shot at the piss poor response to the refugee crisis by "Christian" nations, not making a joke at the expense of a dead toddler
Messofanego
Banned
As a muslim, it's kind of darkly clever commentary on Slovakia and other Europeans' fears of accepting refugees. I mean, a news cameraperson tripped over a dad carrying his child.
That real life event itself could have been satirical imagery. Satire is pretty blunt, and thsee comics are about as blunt a point you can make.
That real life event itself could have been satirical imagery. Satire is pretty blunt, and thsee comics are about as blunt a point you can make.
Thank you for the voice of sanity.
The "joke" was obvious to anyone who doesn't jump to being offended as his first response.
The joke being, the European Union.
Shit, I live in Canada and I was able to piece together the connection to current events fine. Don't even need to be over there to figure it out.
Now is it tasteless? Yeah, you could argue that. But that's dark humor for you.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Ok, that makes more sense than the witch thing my mind initially went to.
That's how I took it. Christian migrants can "walk" right in, while migrant Muslim children drown.
Neoriceisgood
Member
Someone explain the McDonalds one?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
And how would this cartoon read as a criticism of that position and not an endorsement of it? It seems to me that you have to assume that the cartoon is being critical of something just by virtue of being a cartoon to make that leap, and I've seen lots of (usually bad) cartoons that are meant to reinforce, not criticize. If I don't assume it has to be criticizing something then reading that cartoon absolutely reads as a reinforcement of that mayor's position
dapperbandit
Banned
Satire is apparently only applicable to human tragedies that have existed in public consciousness long enough to have surpassed the mandatory viral period.
This is all at once too soon to the current tragedy but far away enough in time from the massacre for bygone proponents of free speech to remember that Charlie Hebdo is a deeply left wing paper.
This is all at once too soon to the current tragedy but far away enough in time from the massacre for bygone proponents of free speech to remember that Charlie Hebdo is a deeply left wing paper.
Because the discrimination of which Syrian refugees are accepted is important context. Many Europeans are saying only Christians should be accepted. This comes up with a ludicrous reason for their discrimination to make fun of it while drawing attention to the horror that people are ignoring with their attitude towards refugees.
Surface of Me
I'm not an NPC. And neither are we.
I mean, people who have more context than you are saying its about the willingness of France to let in Christian immigrants and hesitancy to Muslims. Why should I give you the benefit of a doubt? Do you really think they just made the comic "lol dead muslim kid"?
RustyNails
Member
Majid Nawaaz is a fucking tool. Stop quoting him.
As for the Hebdo, satire is ok. But they were fishing for more publicity here. Whats the point of having a satire so opaque that only 4 people in the country "get it"?
As for the Hebdo, satire is ok. But they were fishing for more publicity here. Whats the point of having a satire so opaque that only 4 people in the country "get it"?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
sankt-Antonio
Banned
What they do is essentially holding a mirror into the metaphorical european face in the form of a comic asking "what do you do to help these drowning refugees?". The child's death is sickening, yes, but thats why its necessary to be blunt about it. Imo.
Is it because it's French that people fail to understand the point of the jokes or something?
It is an effective satire in that it is shocking and is actually pointing something that is allegedly wrong with our society.
It's Charlie Hebdo, it's par for the course.
These ones are pretty funny in a dark way if you ask me.
It's absolutely not anti-Muslim, it's more anti-christian.
You have to absolutely miss the point if you think this is an example of Charlie being anti-muslim.
It is an effective satire in that it is shocking and is actually pointing something that is allegedly wrong with our society.
It's Charlie Hebdo, it's par for the course.
These ones are pretty funny in a dark way if you ask me.
It's absolutely not anti-Muslim, it's more anti-christian.
You have to absolutely miss the point if you think this is an example of Charlie being anti-muslim.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
And you're assuming that it's inherently evil and making fun of dead kids (which doesn't really make any sense if you actually think about the CONTEXT of the situation)
So you're just guessing at the possible intention of the cartoon, but without backing it up with proper context of the cartoon and what it's possibly saying. You just see a picture of a dead kid and take the words at face value and get offended.
TheUntamedLegend
Member
The joke is written right on the cover.
"Proof that Europe is Christian"
The Christian refugees are accepted (they walk on water), while the Muslims sink.
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