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[The Technomancer]

Okay I could be reading too much into this but this quote feels (consciously or not) a bit too on the nose:

We experimented with a few different versions, but all of them involved the hedrons neutralizing a big creature. We ended up with the current version, because an Oblivion Ring-style effect did the best job of feeling like it was imprisoning the creature. Break it open—much like Thalia broke open the Helvault—and the creature returns to the battlefield.

More evidence for Avacyn is Nahiri theory? Not a huge fan of it, but...

 

[Firemind]

I have

4 Polluted Delta
8 Flooded Strand
5 Wooded Foothills
6 Bloodstained Mire
7 Windswept Heath

I'm just lazy and don't want to take the Deltas physically out of my Twin deck for Standard. I probably could trade Strands for Deltas, I guess. I'm in the middle of taking everything apart and organizing it so I can build nonsense shit for FNM.



TItan's Presence is super fucking good if you have the creatures to enable it as well.

#stealthbrag

 

[Takuan]

Very underwhelming set. It'll be the first pre-release I skip out on since Scars block.

 

[OnPoint]

I ran the sealed generator a couple times and boy is it unexciting so many crappy rares.

Highlight were 2 expeditions, both tango lands though, and 3 Kioras with 2 in one pool.

I clicked opening 6 boosters at a time until I got one. It took like 10 clicks. Also, I'm apparently going to open like 4 Ob Nixilis, 3 Kiora and 15 Wasteland eldrazi dudes/Zada's.

This simulator is not accurate lol

But it made me realize I will not like 90% of what I open... this is not a good sign.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I clicked opening 6 boosters at a time until I got one. It took like 10 clicks. Also, I'm apparently going to open like 4 Ob Nixilis, 3 Kiora and 15 Wasteland eldrazi dudes/Zada's.

This simulator is not accurate lol

But it made me realize I will not like 90% of what I open... this is not a good sign.

I opened a Fat Pack of Theros with 3 Aritsan of Forms, and a foil Artisan of Forms. Weird shit happens in sealed product lol

 

[Yeef]

I don't want to, like, make a list or anything to prove a point, but Khans had bombs. Lots of them. The only playable deathtouch creature that can play defense is B/W (Ruthless Ripper isn't very good because she's not a warrior.) Walls are too small to stop a 6/6. There are no playable regenerators except Rakshasa Deathdealer. Bounce/tap is only okay if you have something in play to race with. There aren't that many removal spells at common that can deal with a 4/4 on turn three. White even has Feat of Resistance in case you want to kill Mantis Rider or any Abzan fatty.

I didn't say Khans didn't have bombs, I said it wasn't bomb-dependent. As in, if you didn't get a bomb and your opponent did, you still had ways to deal with their bomb. This is different than Fate Reforged where there were lots of cards that were almost unanswerable. If you got them and played them on curve you'd win 95% of the time.

I also disagree with your analysis of the format overall, but I don't really feel like getting into a debate.

The problem with Khans was that synergy wasn't often enough to trump brute power. You would play Outlast in Jeskai and Mardu, Raid in Jeskai and Temur, Delve in Temur and Jeskai etc. because of their inherent power level. The cards are too good. The only archetype that I think is legitimately based on synergy is B/W warriors. And that awful Secret Plans deck that nobody drafts. Contrast that to one of GAF's darling, Innistrad, where every archetype is clearly defined. Obviously some overlap, but there are enough distinct strategies that could beat the decks with bombs. That's good design.

It looks like we just fundamentally disagree on what makes a good draft format. Each clan certainly had its own archetype, but there's a lot of overlap on cards that you want to take; that much I agree with. But I also think that's ideal for a draft format to be deep. Having a good mix of cards that are good in multiple decks and only good in one deck is key. It forces you to make value judgments on what you think you can wheel and what you need to take early. There's also a good tension between being greedy and trying to play as many colors as you can and being conservative and playing as few as you can. I've hand plenty of drafts where one person at the table would just snap pick any of the common lands for the first pack or two then play 5-color good stuff, which worked well if no one else was doing it and ended in disaster if someone was. Having to read the signals and deciding when to move in or out of a strategy is what makes draft so great. The more strategies are viable, the deeper the draft format.

I clicked opening 6 boosters at a time until I got one. It took like 10 clicks. Also, I'm apparently going to open like 4 Ob Nixilis, 3 Kiora and 15 Wasteland eldrazi dudes/Zada's.

This simulator is not accurate lol

But it made me realize I will not like 90% of what I open... this is not a good sign.

one thing to keep in mind is that simulators like these are typically completely random (for the most part), but actual sealed products are not. Due to collation and the way boosters are made, packs aren't truly random. Wizards purposely sets up the sheets such that the average pack has about the same power level, in terms of commons, for limited purposes. My understanding is that cards are added to booster packs in runs and runs will always be the same. So, for example, the 10 commons in each pack might be 2 5-card runs. The 3 uncommons in the pack will be a section of a particular run, etc. that's also why box mapping is a thing.

 

[Matriox]

I clicked opening 6 boosters at a time until I got one. It took like 10 clicks. Also, I'm apparently going to open like 4 Ob Nixilis, 3 Kiora and 15 Wasteland eldrazi dudes/Zada's.

This simulator is not accurate lol

But it made me realize I will not like 90% of what I open... this is not a good sign.

To be fair, I've opened like 10 or so sealed generators from that page and haven't seen a planeswalker or expedition yet.

 

[OnPoint]

I opened a Fat Pack of Theros with 3 Aritsan of Forms, and a foil Artisan of Forms. Weird shit happens in sealed product lol

Sure does... but that sounds extreme.

Would kill for this though:

 

[ultron87]

According to the Sealed Simulator I will 90% open a manland.

 

[Giant Panda]

Trust me this is the best deck I have ever made =V

Deck: Esper Eldrazi

//Creatures
4 Fathom Feeder
4 Wasteland Strangler
2 Ulamog's Nullifier
4 Blight Herder
1 Oblivion Sower
2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

//Spells
3 Titan's Presence
3 Suspension Field
3 Stasis Snare
2 Utter End
1 Quarantine Field
2 Dig Through Time
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

//Land
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
4 Plains
3 Swamp
2 Sunken Hollow
3 Prairie Stream
2 Shambling Vent

//Sideboard
2 Aligned Hedron Network
2 Dragonlord Ojutai
3 Revoke Existence
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Duress
2 Negate

Display deck statistics

Isn't that only 57 cards?

 

[Angry Grimace]

Isn't that only 57 cards?

Remember when you could play 40 in constructed? =V

 

[Angry Grimace]

I need to play around with that deck a little before I try and fuck with people at FNM with it. Ugin seems both like a combo and a nonbo (since his minus can kill everything but your own dudes, but also kills your Stasis Snares, but the idea is to move them to the GY with processor effects anyways).

 

[OnPoint]

Okay I could be reading too much into this but this quote feels (consciously or not) a bit too on the nose:

More evidence for Avacyn is Nahiri theory? Not a huge fan of it, but...

It honestly wouldn't surprise me at this point. And it would be an interesting way to make an Angel planeswalker. For one, Avacyn is hugely popular so that would be big for them, and two, an angel planeswalker would also be massive. I know that they can't technically make an angel planeswalker, but Avacyn would technically not be an angel, and there's precedent and foreshadowing with Ob Nixlis getting his spark back, despite still being a demon.

 

[Firemind]

snip

Since what makes a good draft format is indeed subjective, here's an example that aptly describes my position on the skill ceiling of Khans draft. Say your opponent morphs Sagu Mauler and another creature on turn three and four. You have the removal spell. You now have a 50/50 chance of not losing the game outright. This happpened quite regularly in my experience and I wasn't even on the receiving end of it most of the time.

 

[blindrocket]

How does Clever Impersonator interact with flip cards? Does it only copy whichever side is face up? That is how I would expect it to act but I could be wrong.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Man, drafted a Sultai converge ramp deck splashing Ob Nixilis. That card is pretty good lol

How does Clever Impersonator interact with flip cards? Does it only copy whichever side is face up? That is how I would expect it to act but I could be wrong.

Yes.

The real question is what happens when you trigger the flip on a face-up flipwalker with your clone.

 

[SigmasonicX]

How does Clever Impersonator interact with flip cards? Does it only copy whichever side is face up? That is how I would expect it to act but I could be wrong.

For double faced cards, it copies the face-up side and can't transform.

For Kamigawa flip cards, the clone enters unflipped but is capable of flipping.

If you copy a face-down card, then the clone will be a 2/2 creature with no name, creature type, or abilities.

 

["God's Beard!"]

For double faced cards, it copies the face-up side and can't transform.

But it can still trigger right? Like say I copy Nissa with Clever Impersonator with 7 lands out. I can crack a fetch in response to removal and the Nissa blinks and re-enters the battlefield as Clever Impersonator and I can assign new targets, right? Or does it just exile and go away forever?

 

[OnPoint]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";179548210]But it can still trigger right? Like say I copy Nissa with Clever Impersonator with 7 lands out. I can crack a fetch in response to removal and the Nissa blinks and re-enters the battlefield as Clever Impersonator and I can assign new targets, right? Or does it just exile and go away forever?[/QUOTE]

I think it returns as Clever Impersonator, right?

 

[SigmasonicX]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";179548210]But it can still trigger right? Like say I copy Nissa with Clever Impersonator with 7 lands out. I can crack a fetch in response to removal and the Nissa blinks and re-enters the battlefield as Clever Impersonator and I can assign new targets, right? Or does it just exile and go away forever?[/QUOTE]

I believe it would come back as Clever Impersonator and you can choose a new target, yes.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";179548210]But it can still trigger right? Like say I copy Nissa with Clever Impersonator with 7 lands out. I can crack a fetch in response to removal and the Nissa blinks and re-enters the battlefield as Clever Impersonator and I can assign new targets, right? Or does it just exile and go away forever?[/QUOTE]

It comes back into play and you can clone something else.

 

[Angry Grimace]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";179547547]Man, drafted a Sultai converge ramp deck splashing Ob Nixilis. That card is pretty good lol


Yes.

The real question is what happens when you trigger the flip on a face-up flipwalker with your clone.[/QUOTE]

It returns to the battlefield face-up. If, for some reason the clone is also a 2-sided card (there is a specific completely impossible scenario where this works), it will return transformed.

(The scenario in question: you have an Ameboid Changeling, a Delver of Secrets, a Shapesharer and a Nissa, Vastwood Seer. You use Ameboid Changeling to turn Delver of Secrets into every creature type, activate Shapesharer to turn Delver of Secrets into a clone of Nissa, sacrifice the real Nissa, play a land. The Delver cloning Nissa triggers, exiling itself and returning to the battlefield as Insectile Aberration.)

 

[divisionbyzorro]

It returns to the battlefield face-up. If, for some reason the clone is also a 2-sided card (there is a specific scenario where this works), it will return transformed.

...

Infinite Reflection + Mirror Gallery?

 

[Angry Grimace]

...

Infinite Reflection + Mirror Gallery?

Sure, I like mine more because its even more improbable to occur

 

[blindrocket]

Modern Snapshot

 

[Socat]

Modern Snapshot

Glad I ordered some Katakis to add to stony silence in my sideboard for Modern to avoid Lantern and Affinity nonsense

 

[Yeef]

Since what makes a good draft format is indeed subjective, here's an example that aptly describes my position on the skill ceiling of Khans draft. Say your opponent morphs Sagu Mauler and another creature on turn three and four. You have the removal spell. You now have a 50/50 chance of not losing the game outright. This happpened quite regularly in my experience and I wasn't even on the receiving end of it most of the time.

I wouldn't call it a 50/50 shot, but I get what you're saying. That's actually what I love about morph though. You need to eke out ways to deduce what to go after. It's pretty typical for experienced players to play their better morph second and the expendable one first, so you always go after the second morph with your removal. It's also important to pay attention to how they handle combat. If they're more prone to attack or block with a particular morph when they're low on mana odds are they don't consider it a priority, so it's likely not worth it to use removal on it.

morph is very much about reading your opponent. So if you draft with the same core group of people it becomes a lot more interesting. I could see how, if you're drafting online, it might just feel like a coin flip, but face-to-face it's really not.

 

[JulianImp]

...

Infinite Reflection + Mirror Gallery?

Nissa's triggered ability only happens when you play a land, so you can't do any silly infinite loops. At most you could blink your whole team while thinning your deck of forests every time you dropped a land.

Wait a second, with a clone copying Jace you could loot forever as long as you have enough cards in your graveyard... Where's Sakashima when we need him.

Non-flip cards being unable to flip is why a Necrotic Ooze copying the Innistrad U/R looter was somewhat of a combo, since the ooze would untap whenever you discarded a creature to its loot ability but wouldn't flip, so you could loot over and over until you ran out of creature cards in your hand.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Nissa's triggered ability only happens when you play a land, so you can't do any silly infinite loops. At most you could blink your whole team while thinning your deck of forests every time you dropped a land.

Wait a second, with a clone copying Jace you could loot forever as long as you have enough cards in your graveyard...

Non-flip cards being unable to flip is why a Necrotic Ooze copying the Innistrad U/R looter was somewhat of a combo, since the ooze would untap whenever you discarded a creature to its loot ability but wouldn't flip, so you could loot over and over until you ran out of creature cards in your hand.

I saw a guy do this with Necrotic Ooze in EDH. He binned Anger and Looter Jace, then started looting infinitely with Jace until he hit Warstorm Surge (which he cast). Then he looted a Chandra into the bin and used its ability to deal infinite damage thanks to the Warstorm Surge. I.e., the silliest infinite combo ever.

 

[Yeef]

Just as a heads up, we were only able to get half our normal opening order of Fat Packs from Wizards Direct for BFZ. Our other distributors also had limited allocations for the fat packs. I'm not sure if Wizards is just putting less product out there or if it's some other issues, but it looks like Fat Packs might be supply constrained for the first week at least. If you can find them at (or below) MSRP you should probably pull the trigger.

 

[Wichu]

I saw a guy do this with Necrotic Ooze in EDH. He binned Anger and Looter Jace, then started looting infinitely with Jace until he hit Warstorm Surge (which he cast). Then he looted a Chandra into the bin and used its ability to deal infinite damage thanks to the Warstorm Surge. I.e., the silliest infinite combo ever.

That's amazing.

You can even do it in U/R with Body Double or Sakashima instead of Necrotic Ooze (though you need to resolve Chandra for Sakashima to work).

 

[JulianImp]

I saw a guy do this with Necrotic Ooze in EDH. He binned Anger and Looter Jace, then started looting infinitely with Jace until he hit Warstorm Surge (which he cast). Then he looted a Chandra into the bin and used its ability to deal infinite damage thanks to the Warstorm Surge. I.e., the silliest infinite combo ever.

Necrotic Ooze enables way too many silly combos in EDH, which is why I like it.

I also remember some rule about non-planeswalker cards not being bound to the "use one loyalty ability per turn" restriction, which meant that using a Quikcsilver Elemental on an animated PW would supposedly allow the elemental to go nuts.

...Damn, I just reminded myself that I still haven't found any group where I could play EDH. I just don't have the time and money to keep up to date on Standard (already skipped the whole KTK block and both core sets), but I might end up using the store credit I've had since forever to play the BFZ prerelease just because.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I just looked at what Azusa is worth and my god I played a landfall deck with a couple of it for years unsleeved. I'm a monster.

I think they fixed the PW thingie in a rules change

 

[Infinite Stars]

Fuck Polluted Delta being $23.

It's like $40 here in Canada, so not sure why $23 is a bad price for it.

I need to pick up my playset of Fetches, but gosh darn they're stupidly expensive in Canada. I'm thinking on just waiting till post rotation and seeing if any standard players are looking to offload their copies.

As a dumb question: this will be my 5th Pre-release but my first 2HG one. What should I know since this is my first time?

 

[Rudimental]

This simulator is not accurate lol

Seems... optimistic.

 

[Joe Molotov]

Seems... optimistic.

5-Color Dranamog is the way to go in Limited.

 

[Matriox]

Seems... optimistic.

This is what the person across from me will pull, while I sit there with converge setup but no mana fixing.

 

[Gotchaye]

If I wanted to try this Sealed thing by going to a prerelease, what do I expect that to cost? And if I have no interest in actually collecting the cards, is there an easy way to get rid of them afterwards (and how much of the cost do I expect to defray doing this)?

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

If I wanted to try this Sealed thing by going to a prerelease, what do I expect that to cost? And if I have no interest in actually collecting the cards, is there an easy way to get rid of them afterwards (and how much of the cost do I expect to defray doing this)?

It's 25 for 6 booster packs + the promo where I live and the store buys the cards they are interested in but usually not at a particularly good price afterwards.

You usually need to go 2-2 for a couple booster packs extra. Depending on how many went and what were the final standing. If you go 3-1 you get some more and 4-0 you get a bunch. That is if it's a 4 rounds event.

You'll rarely completely recoup the costs but if you do alright or get lucky you can leave with more value even.

 

[ThLunarian]

Necrotic Ooze enables way too many silly combos in EDH, which is why I like it.

I also remember some rule about non-planeswalker cards not being bound to the "use one loyalty ability per turn" restriction, which meant that using a Quikcsilver Elemental on an animated PW would supposedly allow the elemental to go nuts.

...Damn, I just reminded myself that I still haven't found any group where I could play EDH. I just don't have the time and money to keep up to date on Standard (already skipped the whole KTK block and both core sets), but I might end up using the store credit I've had since forever to play the BFZ prerelease just because.

This just blew my mind.

I want to make a deck that's capable of doing this now.

 

[Matriox]

If I wanted to try this Sealed thing by going to a prerelease, what do I expect that to cost? And if I have no interest in actually collecting the cards, is there an easy way to get rid of them afterwards (and how much of the cost do I expect to defray doing this)?

It depends entirely on prize support and LGS's, but around me I can name off 4 that cost on average between them at $25 for your 6 packs+promo, with a box of the set for getting first, 18 packs (half a box) for 2nd, 12 packs 3-4th, 8 packs 5-8th, and they go down to 16th place. As far as trying to make a profit or break even from just your pulls alone, that's a gamble but not impossible, I say you can get around half your value on average? It depends entirely on your pulls, but since stuff is just hitting market it will be slightly higher due to immediate demand for those cards before the set drops.

 

[ultron87]

If I wanted to try this Sealed thing by going to a prerelease, what do I expect that to cost? And if I have no interest in actually collecting the cards, is there an easy way to get rid of them afterwards (and how much of the cost do I expect to defray doing this)?

Around 25 bucks is what I see in Ohio. Could be different by region and store.

I think stores can buy cards after the tournament, but the value of that in store credit/cash will depend a lot on what you open. If you just get middling rares you'd probably get at most a few bucks back, but if you open something valuable it would be possible to get your money back (or significantly more if you win the lotto and get an Expedition land).

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

This just blew my mind.

I want to make a deck that's capable of doing this now.

not possible anymore but before gideon it usually worked by making them an artifact and then a creature.

They changed the rules afterwards making the one per turn clause ability specific not PW specific.

 

[Jhriad]

Over 1K for a deck..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzishIREebw

Did i say Vintage and Legacy, silly me i meant Modern.

Don't be scared away by the prices some folks are throwing around. Modern isn't cheap, but it's only expensive if you let it be. Now, there aren't many Tier 1 decks that are reasonably priced but there plenty of fun budget decks and if you're willing to spend a couple hundred dollars you can even have certain Tier 1-2 decks.

Regarding your deck list, the cards that I note are outside of Modern print runs and thus not legal in the format or banned in Modern are:

Gilded Drake
Ponder
Brainstorm

At a glance the deck looks like a cross between some Modern Mono U Tron lists and UW Gifts/Tron (more similar to UW Gifts/Tron) I've seen but I don't have any experience with the blue varieties of Tron, and not a ton of experience with Modern in general yet so I'm not sure I can be of much help. Some of the other folks here would be far more qualified than I to comment on the deck. You definitely have a lot of the pieces of a UW Tron deck there though.

Here's a link to a list of Mono U Tron lists that have shown up to varying degrees of success over time.

Here's a similar list of decks for UW Tron/Gifts. This is probably more along the lines of what you're looking for if I had to guess.

Your list looks to run a few more creatures and sweepers than a lot of those lists so you might think abou paring down a bit on those for more Control-style targetted removal and counter magic. Adding things like Path to Exile and Remand for instance. Hopefully the other guys here can give you a better breakdown on what they would do than my poor attempt.

 

[Angry Grimace]

If I wanted to try this Sealed thing by going to a prerelease, what do I expect that to cost? And if I have no interest in actually collecting the cards, is there an easy way to get rid of them afterwards (and how much of the cost do I expect to defray doing this)?

$25. You can move the cards if they have constructed applications, but since most cards don't, you usually don't get much back.

 

[charlequin]

More evidence for Avacyn is Nahiri theory?

Or evidence that Sorin learned something from the Eldrazi Threesome experience and used it in his plan for Innistrad? I mean the story even says Avacyn and the Helvault showed up at the same time, which suggests that Sorin dropped them both off much more than that Avacyn built it because she's secretly a totally different character. (Also, I mean, it's made out of silver, not rock.)

For double faced cards, it copies the face-up side and can't transform.

They should make a card next time we get DFCs that's just a clone on each side with "3U: transform this" or something, heh. Maybe the backside could be a clone with some extra upside.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

They should make a card next time we get DFCs that's just a clone on each side with "3U: transform this" or something, heh. Maybe the backside could be a clone with some extra upside.

Nah they should make a clone that has an upside if he transforms but no way to transform by itself.

Like becomes the copy of target creature but with hexproof.

And while we're at it make a clone planeswalker, there's a massive lack of diversity in Walkers they are either practically human, of the ones seeing reprints Ajani being the exception, or completely otherworldly and even among the human ones is they are predominately white. Koth, maybe Narset is and outside actual sets Teferi.

 

[Yeef]

And while we're at it make a clone planeswalker, there's a massive lack of diversity in Walkers they are either practically human, Ajani being the exception, or completely otherworldly and even of the human ones is anyone not white? Koth is.

A clone planeswalker is too narrow a design. Clever Impersonator is the correct way to do something like that.

Also, Koth, Teferi, Sarkhan, Narset and Tezzeret (?) are non-white, human planeswalkers. Gideon's also been retconned to be Indo-Iranian or something.

 

[El Topo]

Going through a few drafts...the set seems really unimpressive in Limited. Landfall seems good, Eldrazi are good if you can get some synergy going, Awaken is a mechanic that exists, Allies are in this set.
I do like some cards though, but it feels just a bit...wonky.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

A clone planeswalker is too narrow a design. Clever Impersonator is the correct way to do something like that.

Also, Koth, Teferi, Sarkhan, Narset and Tezzeret (?) are non-white, human planeswalkers. Gideon's also been retconned to be Indo-Iranian or something.

You don't have to have it just be a clone. We've had clones with narrative before. Make it a shapeshifter then, not the changelings. You'd only need to dedicate 1 ability that's just clone to him and his ultimate could be "for every permanent in play put a copy of it into play under your control". Flavourful you win the game effect.

Also this would mean we'd get a blue planeswalker for once that focused on one of the more uncommon blue effects.

I was looking through the planeswalkers on magiccards.info and I thought I noticed something about the artwork changing with Gideon. I don't mind it.

With Sarkhan being from Khans I can buy that, he always seemed more white just savage than arabic/asian to me before.

Tezzeret is from Esper though isn't he?

Would be nice to have more eprints of Koth though, and a non humanoid PW.


On a separate issue why do dwarves barely exist in any of the planes, are they just Dominaria exclusive?