Otaku USA: As “Geek” Culture Assimilates, “Otaku” Remain Outcasts

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foxuzamaki

Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
Then you get many things that just confirm the stereotype of anime fans being socially inept, unemployed, low self-esteem losers who can't deal with reality.



PR game for otaku is weak as fuck. Don't ever hear any positive stories, so easier to laugh at the weirdos.

this post is gold
 
Should I blame BioWare because fans are obsessed with what Tali's suit smells like to the point where someone tried to use organic chemistry to describe the composition of her perspiration? :p

It's how much the company leans into it. You can't control what people get obsessed about, but you can control how you react to it as the holder of the IP.

To use a RL example - a lot of Nick shows supposedly aimed at tweens that star and starred people like Victoria Justice or Ariana Grande had a lot of content in them that seemed to be well, not aimed at 10 year old girls. Now, it was nothing obvious, but anybody paying attention could see that the producers knew exactly what they were doing.

OTOH, Ariel Winter from Modern Family gets a lot of attention for a variety of reasons despite being underage. However, they don't blatantly focus on that in the show and instead, downplay her attractiveness and such.

Bumping cause it got bottom of the page'd
 
My point is that if we were to do a deep dive on the show we could talk about lots of things from specific shots and the way characters are framed to the ways characters physically interact with each other to aspects of the plotting and "world" that all suggest the show's creators are aware of and not afraid to lean into pleasing a certain segment of their fanbase, no matter how broad the fanbase as a whole is. And given the specific topic of the show that conversation gets sort of tricky. Given how often this topic comes up I did finally go back and watch the first season of the show in its entirety just to refresh my vague four year old memories

The irony of K-On, I will say, is that certain aspects of the show were actually changed to not cater to them.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
It's how much the company leans into it. You can't control what people get obsessed about, but you can control how you react to it as the holder of the IP.

To use a RL example - a lot of Nick shows supposedly aimed at tweens that star and starred people like Victoria Justice or Ariana Grande had a lot of content in them that seemed to be well, not aimed at 10 year old girls. Now, it was nothing obvious, but anybody paying attention could see that the producers knew exactly what they were doing.

OTOH, Ariel Winter from Modern Family gets a lot of attention for a variety of reasons despite being underage. However, they don't blatantly focus on that in the show and instead, downplay her attractiveness and such.

Bingo. Some Nick shows have, in the past, come across as honestly really skeevy at times. The only reason they aren't a hotbed topic is because, well, if we're honest almost no-one on this forum gives two shits about them. But if this hypothetical Nick fanbase was concerned about member acquisition and wanted to talk about why people weren't jumping in that topic would probably be high on the list
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
My point is that if we were to do a deep dive on the show we could talk about lots of things from specific shots and the way characters are framed and animate to the ways characters physically interact with each other to aspects of the plotting and "world" that all suggest the show's creators are aware of and not afraid to lean into pleasing a certain segment of their fanbase, no matter how broad the fanbase as a whole is. And given the specific topic of the show that conversation gets sort of tricky. Given how often this topic comes up I did finally go back and watch the first season of the show in its entirety just to refresh my vague four year old memories
Speaking about K-On specifically, the first season is a direct adaptation of the manga, which is why there are two random beach episodes for example. But even then, the first season has moments where they reference situations that would be fanservicey but are purposefully not shown to avoid fanservice (Mio's accident, for example).

Yamada and Yoshida pretty much went away entirely from that in season 2, because they seemed to have a mandate that allowed them to write more original stories than to try to directly reference the source material.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
It's how much the company leans into it. You can't control what people get obsessed about, but you can control how you react to it as the holder of the IP.

To use a RL example - a lot of Nick shows supposedly aimed at tweens that star and starred people like Victoria Justice or Ariana Grande had a lot of content in them that seemed to be well, not aimed at 10 year old girls. Now, it was nothing obvious, but anybody paying attention could see that the producers knew exactly what they were doing.

OTOH, Ariel Winter from Modern Family gets a lot of attention for a variety of reasons despite being underage. However, they don't blatantly focus on that in the show and instead, downplay her attractiveness and such.

I think BioWare leans heavily into ships and whatever the western equivalent of "moe" and "waifus" are. Every game they've made since KoTOR features what is essentially a dating sim layer on top of the rest of the game mechanics.

But if you talk about intent, again for K-On specifically, they avoided fanservice purposefully. For anime in general? That's impossible to talk about because it's too broad. It'd be like trying to ascribe intention to all video games ever made because HuniePop is on Steam.
 
Bingo. Some Nick shows have, in the past, come across as honestly really skeevy at times. The only reason they aren't a hotbed topic is because, well, if we're honest almost no-one on this forum gives two shits about them. But if this hypothetical Nick fanbase was concerned about member acquisition and wanted to talk about why people weren't jumping in that topic would probably be high on the list

A thread did exist about Nick shows under the guise of a Victorious OT, where there was a load of GIFs from the show and other celebrities (some of them being underaged even) showing skeevy elements of the show. And it was shut down twice because what was going on wasn't actually relevant to the show at hand.

They were called CreepyGAF and even hosted a tumblr site for the GIFs. The reason why no one talks about it is because it is banned.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
The main problem is that the creepy weird stuff is what's making a lot of companies money, so that's what is front 'n' center. In a weird way, it's kind of the point actual comics were in the early to mid 90's. If you looked, there were plenty of great series, but the stuff that sold a bunch of copies and got mainstream attention was Lady Death or Witchblade or a cover where Psylocke's boobs were falling out, so the cliche of the well, Comic Book Guy took hold.

It took decades of PR by the comic companies plus the biggest comic book stores pushing back against that stereotype, including doing things like actually hiring female employees, pushing the weird statues to the back, and highlighting diverse titles for the idea of a the comic book shop to change, and even with all of that, a lot of places are still too close to Android Dungeon.

But unfortunately for anime fans, it seems unlikely that the 'moe' bubble will burst anytime soon like the speculation boom did for comic book shops.
This is actually a pretty good comparison. Comics in the 90s were offputting as fuck, and I say that as a kid who grew up in the 90s
 

foxuzamaki

Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
Moe is part of fanservice. K-On! is a good example of this. It's not a show consumed mostly by young children as well. :/

K-on does not fit your definition of fanservice, it provides moe, but that's because it emphasizes cuteness, anyone who has actually seen k-on can attest to this, its purely all about the characters
 

dity

Member
This is actually a pretty good comparison. Comics in the 90s were offputting as fuck, and I say that as a kid who grew up in the 90s

Honestly, I'd agree. I'd probably be more of a comic book fans, rather than someone just getting into it in recent years, if the comic books available in the 90s and early 2000s were a little more inviting.
 
A thread did exist about Nick shows under the guise of a Victorious OT, where there was a load of GIFs from the show and other celebrities (some of them being underaged even) showing skeevy elements of the show. And it was shut down twice because what was going on wasn't actually relevant to the show at hand.

They were called CreepyGAF and even hosted a tumblr site for the GIFs. The reason why no one talks about it is because it is banned.

That kinda proves the point. There was a thread for the Nick shows that leaned heavily on well, things that their tween audience didn't care about, but on the other hand, there was no long thread with inappropriate gifs about say, High School Musical, despite both shows shows aimed at tweens or young teenagers that were full of attractive people looking attractive.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Honestly, I'd agree. I'd probably be more of a comic book fans, rather than someone just getting into it in recent years, if the comic books available in the 90s and early 2000s were a little more inviting.
But even then, you can't really judge comic books of the era based on a few titles.
All of the heavy hitters, Bendis, Rucka, etc, were writing their own indie books back in the 90s/2000s before they went to Marvel/DC and most of those books had nothing to do with showing showing girls in skimpy costumes or whatever.
 

dity

Member
But even then, you can't really judge comic books of the era based on a few titles.
All of the heavy hitters, Bendis, Rucka, etc, were writing their own indie books back in the 90s/2000s before they went to Marvel/DC and most of those books had nothing to do with showing showing girls in skimpy costumes or whatever.

Well it was nothing to do with sexualisation for me as a kid and more to do with the weirdness and out-there qualities. I remember none specifically I just remember flipping open books while at the shops and being very confused.
 
K-on does not fit your definition of fanservice, it provides moe, but that's because it emphasizes cuteness, anyone who has actually seen k-on can attest to this, its purely all about the characters

Yup. While the characters were cute, it was clear that the show steered away from anything that could be considered fanservice (panty stuff and all that).
I guess it helped that both the director and screenwriter were women.
 

Narag

Member
But even then, you can't really judge comic books of the era based on a few titles.
All of the heavy hitters, Bendis, Rucka, etc, were writing their own indie books back in the 90s/2000s before they went to Marvel/DC and most of those books had nothing to do with showing showing girls in skimpy costumes or whatever.

That's when all those awesome Vertigo books were running too.
 
That kinda proves the point. There was a thread for the Nick shows that leaned heavily on well, things that their tween audience didn't care about, but on the other hand, there was no long thread with inappropriate gifs about say, High School Musical, despite both shows shows aimed at tweens or young teenagers that were full of attractive people looking attractive.

HSM is also irrelevant nowadays, so no one is willing to pick up on it.

Relevance also ties into things I should mention.
 
But even then, you can't really judge comic books of the era based on a few titles.
All of the heavy hitters, Bendis, Rucka, etc, were writing their own indie books back in the 90s/2000s before they went to Marvel/DC and most of those books had nothing to do with showing showing girls in skimpy costumes or whatever.

That's when all those awesome Vertigo books were running too.

Right. I knew that and you knew that, but if some random person walked into a local comic book shop, unfortunately, they probably saw a bunch of posters of Witchblade or Psylocke in a bikini, a bunch of bad Image comics trying to out-Jim Lee Jim Lee, and so on ,and so forth. Just like if somebody tries to get into anime right now, they have to first get past a lot of stuff that even if it's innocent, is not seen innocently by a bunch of weirdoes and since those weirdoes have lots of cash to spend, the various anime companies make lots of merch for them.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Well it was nothing to do with sexualisation for me as a kid and more to do with the weirdness and out-there qualities. I remember none specifically I just remember flipping open books while at the shops and being very confused.
Part of that is just having someone introduce you to stuff. It would be like going into a music store (do they even exist in 2015?) as a kid and being asked to find music you like without any frame of reference. Maybe you jumped into the Dubstep section of the store when someone should have shown you where the Beatles CDs were kept.

That's when all those awesome Vertigo books were running too.
The rise of the indie, starting with Image and fake-indie like Vertigo, was probably responsible for making comic books (and not comic book bullshit like Marvel/DC-proper) relevant.
It's why there's a movie adaptation of something relatively obscure like Ghost World... a book that probably wouldn't have existed in an earlier era.

Right. I knew that and you knew that, but if some random person walked into a local comic book shop, unfortunately, they probably saw a bunch of posters of Witchblade or Psylocke in a bikini, a bunch of bad Image comics trying to out-Jim Lee Jim Lee, and so on ,and so forth. Just like if somebody tries to get into anime right now, they have to first get past a lot of stuff that even if it's innocent, is not seen innocently by a bunch of weirdoes and since those weirdoes have lots of cash to spend, the various anime companies make lots of merch for them.
If someone gets into video games right now, they would think the entire audience is full of psychopaths because outside of Minecraft and some Nintendo games, the top selling games are all about shooting people in the face or stabbing them in the neck.

But we all know that there are games like Undertale or The Beginner's Guide or Life is Strange or whatever that offer different experiences. Ideally you aren't exclusively getting your game information from just walking into a Gamestop these days, particularly since the internet allows you to do research to find things that you might like that aren't plastered all over the walls of a store.
 

dity

Member
Part of that is just having someone introduce you to stuff. It would be like going into a music store (do they even exist in 2015?) as a kid and being asked to find music you like without any frame of reference. Maybe you jumped into the Dubstep section of the store when someone should have shown you where the Beatles CDs were kept.

I could still pick up an Archie or a Sonic though and be perfectly fine. Gotta love Archie's Sonic.
 

Crocodile

Member
Yeah, smears. But one can overdo smears, like any other animation technique. I think anime in general uses it as a crutch way too much to excuse not wanting to actually animate something moving.

But the "character acting" in animation - anything without motion capture anyway - isn't actually acting. It's portraying an emotion but no one's acting it out aside from the voice actor. I'm being finicky I know, but I consider anime no more acted out than a manga. The real meat and potatos, and probably why I prefer anime dubbed, is the voice acting. That drives it home for me, not big bubbly tears or the transition in and out of a pose. I say that because without context and without it explicitly being a gag series it can sometimes be hard to tell if a character is actually upset or just pretending to be upset (y'know, when a character is whining) from the visuals alone. Manga sorts this out with accompanying text, but losing voice acting anime can lose the ability to have something "acted" out purely look as it's presented. If you get what I mean.

Also, you remembered I've watched Space Dandy. Didn't expect that. I liked that show

Yeah, I think that sometimes comes down to the genre of what's presented. Like you can get some amazingly smooth sequences in action series that just can't be present in the west. The closest is probably the surreal stuff in series like Gumball.

When you say "who", do you mean the studio or the individual? Cause if it's studio, I concur. It'd be nice if Japanese studios kind of mixed it up.

Indeed they have. Back in the '40s the FPS count was usually well below 20 though, and action needed to be presented in a way that visually made sense despite the limitations of the time.

A) It's something we'd probably have to go on a show by show basis (when its used well vs. when its used poorly) but overall, I'd say smears are probably underutilized if anything.

B) Body language is a fundamental part of acting. This is true in live action acting and this is true in animation as well. "Anime isn't any more acted than manga" is a statement that doesn't make any sense to me - especially if you are someone who puts the voice component of acting above all. I think this is just a fundamental disagreement here between you and me.

C) When I say "who" I mean on a person to person basis. Most anime employs a lot of freelance work so you get animators doing work for a variety of different studios. With enough experience, you can totally recognize when particular cuts are done by particular people. It's also part of the reason why the staff list of a project is usually more important than the studio. Case in point, One Punch Man (Studio Madhouse) is being animated by A LOT of people who worked on Space Dandy (Studio BONES).

Without going to deep into this tangent, as family friendly as K-on is on a textual level there are stylistic elements and general choices that, given what I've seen of how a certain segment of the fanbase responds, were not part of the show naively. Is it some kind of example of perverted anime trash? No absolutely not. But it is worth a critical discussion.

Whether or not someone, somewhere might be fapping to something I'm watching isn't really my primary concern because people can do that with anything. (Have you seen how much Steven Universe porn there is out there? Have you? HAVE YOU?!) All I care about is how I feel about a show and what I can take away from it. I'm aware enough to know what the target audience for a show is and when elements are put in there to appeal to others that I might personally find distasteful. If I personally have an issue with some element, I'll drop a show but otherwise I really can't be arsed to care what others take out of it. I have better things to worry about that than "oh noes the way these two people hugged might give some person somewhere in the world a boner!" or whatever.

I guess a bit of my exasperation is that A) not all cute shows are created equal so people waste their energy getting pissy and having fits about actually broadly accessible shows (like K-On to my understanding of the show as someone who has never watched it but has read articles and other media written about it) and not taking aim about the actually creepy shows they probably never head of because even most Western anime fans don't care about that stuff and B) anime is so damn broad that's it really easy to avoid dumb shit and watch good shows but those looking to have their biases confirmed seem to enjoy complaining rather than learning or taking the time to actually find the good stuff that still gets made. "Dat goddamn moe/fanservice" has become too easy a scapegoat.
 

Narag

Member
A) It's something we'd probably have to go on a show by show basis (when its used well vs. when its used poorly) but overall, I'd say smears are probably underutilized if anything.

From my experience on twitter, it feels like one hits the lottery when we get something with smears and people are quick to post their findings. :lol
 

dity

Member
A) It's something we'd probably have to go on a show by show basis (when its used well vs. when its used poorly) but overall, I'd say smears are probably underutilized if anything.

B) Body language is a fundamental part of acting. This is true in live action acting and this is true in animation as well. "Anime isn't any more acted than manga" is a statement that doesn't make any sense to me - especially if you are someone who puts the voice component of acting above all. I think this is just a fundamental disagreement here between you and me.

C) When I say "who" I mean on a person to person basis. Most anime employs a lot of freelance work so you get animators doing work for a variety of different studios. With enough experience, you can totally recognize when particular cuts are done by particular people. It's also part of the reason why the staff list of a project is usually more important than the studio. Case in point, One Punch Man (Studio Madhouse) is being animated by A LOT of people who worked on Space Dandy (Studio BONES).

Yeah, we'd probably have to go show by show. However I found they were used more than they probably should have. That might come down to us generally watching different shows.

When it comes to anime, a lot of elements are used in "body language" that aren't actually able to be done in real life. A lot of extra elements seem to need to be added to get the point across - we're talking crazy tears (I type tears a lot), shake lines, forces of nature (wind, fire) used to portray feelings of dejectedness and anger, the forehead sweat drop, changing teeth, scene-specific use of animal features in a sort-of opposite personification. Eyes are utilised in anime and manga in ways simply not possible through normal understandings of body language, too. Stuff like this is why I see it as more of a portrayal than purely anything like acting. This might be due to lower budget series not wanting to do more complicated movement though.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
I could still pick up an Archie or a Sonic though and be perfectly fine. Gotta love Archie's Sonic.
What about when Punisher showed up in Archie? lol
Hell, there's zombie Archie now and it's one of their bigger titles.

I guess my larger point is that you can't really ascribe anything to a medium based on what you perceive to be the biggest representative of the medium.
 

dity

Member
What about when Punisher showed up in Archie? lol
Hell, there's zombie Archie now and it's one of their bigger titles.

I guess my larger point is that you can't really ascribe anything to a medium based on what you perceive to be the biggest representative of the medium.

I dunno, I only got into comic books recently. I was just off-put as a kid. I like what comic book makers are doing now though.

But to the bolded, yeah that's why I brought up Family Guy and people only bringing in examples of great anime. Gotta look at it all.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
The US has pretty much given up on 2D.
The majority of animated television shows are 2D. It's still incredibly prominent in animation education, If the US were to give up on 2D, then that wouldn't be the case. 3D on the other hand, is much more viable for a feature film because it would be a waste of money to develop a huge film on par with Disney's production compared to making a show because it wouldn't sell as well as a CGI film which emulates a 2D style.

...

Not sure what to say.

Whatever, if you think western animation is better that's fine.
Western animation follows a lot more of the important principles so yes. Especially when you get to 3D films where the movement completely outclasses Eastern animation. I just watched Inside Out on Bluray yesterday and the amount of nuance in the character animation is phenomenal. There's also the teeny little fact that western animation draws from life near constantly while eastern animation tends to be inspired by...other anime/manga instead of life. Which also leads to a shit ton more homogenization and repeating tropes, (so many fucking highschool settings and multicolored hair characters with sameface syndrome). So fuck yea, western animation is the better option despite the cherry picked shots where a specific animator is given all the credit on a shot with a large amount of budget dedicated to that shot with the rest of the episode looking relatively lifeless and holy shit they still ignore lip sync in the majority of eastern animation.
 

Fj0823

Member
Eh, I like anime and geeky stuff.

I do hate hardcore Otakus and their inability to accept reality. Shit like this

gja3Zgy.jpg

M'waifu
 

Clefargle

Member
Anime/Manga communities have had more than their fair share of whitewashing,and not just in the appropriation department.

I'm not saying they don't. But I'm glad they aren't getting assimilated along with the rest of nerd culture. It isn't all one monolithic thing. It's fine for it to stay partially niche
 
Jeez, I hope anime doesn't become as popular in the mainstream as the other geek stuff is. Marvel properties already make up like 90% of movies and TV. If anime based stuff starts getting a bunch of movies and TV shows in the US, there'll be no money left to make stuff meant for adults.
 

Cagey

Banned
The mainstreaming of American/British comic books and zombies and whatever the fuck geek culture has been awful enough for the rest of us. We don't need to have anime and manga everywhere too.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
The mainstreaming of American/British comic books and zombies and whatever the fuck geek culture has been awful enough for the rest of us. We don't need to have anime and manga everywhere too.
Its actually sort of interesting to me, because I think the "mainstreaming" elsewhere is largely as a result of the inevitable way that the internet has changed communication. Is anime really immune to the same thing? Or is the shift just a few further years off?
 

Cagey

Banned
Its actually sort of interesting to me, because I think the "mainstreaming" elsewhere is largely as a result of the inevitable way that the internet has changed communication. Is anime really immune to the same thing? Or is the shift just a few further years off?
If it can be developed into successful television shows and movies, it's an inevitability. Preexisting source material with ready made fan bases are valuable commodities for content makers. I don't think there's an immunity, rather it's simply not happened yet.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
As it is anime remains perhaps one of the last areas of genuine "geekdom" with the social connotations that used to include, for better or for worse
 

patapuf

Member
Jeez, I hope anime doesn't become as popular in the mainstream as the other geek stuff is. Marvel properties already make up like 90% of movies and TV. If anime based stuff starts getting a bunch of movies and TV shows in the US, there'll be no money left to make stuff meant for adults.

There's some decent manga stuff for adults at least, even if that's probably not going to be what will be adapted should they become as popular as marvel.
 

Mik317

Member
and honestly most "mainstream" nerd stuff has been around for decades. And all of the "accepted" things are pretty safe overall. Gaming is "accepted" now because of COD and the like (and phone games of course). Marvel is what's hot right now. Star Trek saw its recent boom with the blockbuster styled movies. And most of it is a very set formula.

Snarky protags, epic action, passable plots that don't require too much backstory.

This isn't a bad thing by no means (I have enjoyed all of the Marvel films of late because they do the one thing I want them to do; have superheros do cool shit) but it is what it is.

This is why some of the more obscure properties spend a long time as vaporware or never comes out.

This is also why actually reading comics is still niche. Certain genres of gaming are still niche or dying. And this is why anime/manga have such an uphill battle to be "accepted". A lot of stuff has to change and a lot of those changes would alienate the die hards and potentially end up not pleasing anyone. Kinda like the early Marvel films lol.

I don't think geek culture is assimilating..just that the long running properties have begun to be able to be adapted to appeal to the masses without pissing a lot of people off. And while those properties are big. They aren't the end all be all of geek culture. Not even close
 
It's a shame that people will gladly ignore masterpieces such as Berserk, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure and Yamato 2199 because they fear they'll be labeled nerds if they might like anime. You don't have to sink into the deep end, you can just enjoy good shows.
 

dity

Member
Its actually sort of interesting to me, because I think the "mainstreaming" elsewhere is largely as a result of the inevitable way that the internet has changed communication. Is anime really immune to the same thing? Or is the shift just a few further years off?

I actually think we missed the bus when it comes to anime, it was "immensely popular" several years ago and places like Hollywood tried to get on board but after Dragon Ball Evolution was a disaster I think any movie productions that might have carried it to the western mainstream has died off and entered development hell:

Evangelion movie? Standing still.
Akira movie? Immovable fleshy mass.
Bleach movie? Dead.
Cowboy Bebop movie? Shot.
Death Note Movie? Written in the Death Note.
Ghost in the Shell? Heading to the recycle bin.
Naruto movie? Failing the chuuni exam.

The only seemingly decent/ok western anime movie to come out in the last decade was Speed Racer, but that's pretty detached from current anime.
 
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