It doesn't matter. If you go into an anime thread after hearing what you've heard about anime and see a bunch of little girls and/or a bunch of giant floppy breasted female characters with upskirts like in that highschool of the dead or whatever, you're going to have those biases confirmed. It doesn't matter what the season is looking like. They're not going to come back for the next one. Nobody outside of anime knows what the fuck any of your terms mean or that the season is in a dry spell or that your moe and your fanservice aren't the same thing. That's what I'm trying to say.
Otaku USA: As Geek Culture Assimilates, Otaku Remain Outcasts
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It doesn't matter. If you go into an anime thread after hearing what you've heard about anime and see a bunch of little girls and/or a bunch of giant floppy breasted female characters with upskirts like in that highschool of the dead or whatever, you're going to have those biases confirmed. It doesn't matter what the season is looking like. They're not going to come back for the next one. Nobody outside of anime knows what the fuck any of your terms mean or that the season is in a dry spell or that your moe and your fanservice aren't the same thing. That's what I'm trying to say.
We are talking about animation there is hardly a western TV animation that even attempts character acting on this level. (A collection of Tatsuya Satou's key animation in Kyoto Animation's output over the past few years)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqH-wK8Too4
Again not everything here is from a TV series but much of it is.
When a person is referring to fanservice, it's almost always in reference to sexual content.
Prof. Bathtub
Member
How did an East Vs. West quality argument form here? In any case, the methods of animator organization and production have been wildly different since the beginning of television animation in both countries, so claims of superiority or inferiority feel beside the point.
As to the larger topic, I do feel as the market widens, the gap of coverage between conventional entertainment/media culture and anime will decrease. Will it surpass or merge with the monolithic Nerd culture? I think its foreign nature makes that difficult, but acknowledgment is beneficial.
As to the larger topic, I do feel as the market widens, the gap of coverage between conventional entertainment/media culture and anime will decrease. Will it surpass or merge with the monolithic Nerd culture? I think its foreign nature makes that difficult, but acknowledgment is beneficial.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Moe is part of fanservice. K-On! is a good example of this. It's not a show consumed mostly by young children as well. :/
There NOTHING fanservicy in that OP. Like at all. Like the GAf-chan captions are bothering you? I can't really say I sympathize and I say this as someone who rarely consumes media with such characters or art-styles.
It would be like if someone posted this in the OP of a Steven Universe thread with captions:
I can't imagine anyone being bothered by that. As such I'm having a hard time understanding why GAF-chan is a problem. Unless you're coming in with the closed mindset that "all anime is by default pedo trash!" or something and said person flips out at anything cute. In that case I don't such a person can be helped. They just aren't interested in learning *shrug*
Then that means you aren't watching the right things.
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
I've seen this explanation come up a couple times, if it would have been in the OT OP maybe newcomers wouldn't bring it up as much.
I can recall several anime OTs in years past that pretty much stated "outside of these one or two shows, this season is mostly subpar, here's the lineup" in their opening posts.
I've never considered moe to be fan service. 2 different definitions. One is cute stuff. One is pervy stuff.
PdotMichael
Banned
The confirmation bias is strong here. If you decide not to watch anime because a random thread in the Internet features a girl in the tamest possible way like it does in the animeGAF season thread then there is nothing the author of the OP can do.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
I'd actually put Kill la Kill down as one of the shows I can comfortably talk to people a lot. Helps a lot of it is cartoony and tongue-in-cheek. I can understand some people's aversion to it, but there's a world of difference between Trigger's stuff and the high school girl shows that seem targeted towards 30 something's who're going to buy a ton of merchandise for it. I similarly really dug Panty & Stocking which goes even further and has a graphic sex joke like, every half minute. It depends how a show pulls it off if it's going to make me laugh or creep me out, and Gainax/Trigger tend to be far better at the former.
Regardless, what I mean, when I bring up 'anime' (and I'm NOT a big anime fan in general, nor are my friends to be fair) most people just seem to jump to Dragon Ball, Naruto, Pokemon, Sailor Moon, anything Studio Ghibli, etc. I don't think the mainstream equates anime to hentai as much as fans are paranoid they do.
I don't even think it's actively wrong if people like that more pandering stuff, just as others have said there has to be some more self-awareness and, like, maybe keep it to yourself? I can't blame people not as ingrained into manga/anime stuff to question why you have a anime girl in a bikini as your avatar, even if for how loaded a term it is 'pedophile' gets thrown around way too liberally.
It helps she was annoying as fuck. Also the Awkward Zombie comic about her was on-point, at least considering how much older the rest of the dudes who can marry her look.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Moe is cute (usually young) "kids" who do cutesy stuff. The thing is the audience is usually never young kids it's adults. I would consider moe, when consumed by a large adult audience, to be fan service.
Really? You would be comfortable sitting down with your entire family to watch Kill la Kill? You would be sitting there constantly going, "IT'S TONGUE AND CHEEK!"
TwEE-N-Toast
Banned
My bad, I thought you were looking who they were referencing with the 1000 year old dragon.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
don't tempt me, Horizon.
I made a post, from an outsider's perspective, looking through the list of recommendations in that OP and giving a quick reaction, and using that to kind of analyze why the content of anime could be unappealing to people on the outside looking in. A bunch of people responded to say that the list in the OP was a joke and none of the recommendations were serious.
Pls help, do I take an L here or not thx.
I don't think this is an unfair impression. The anime industry is built on "limited animation", on finding ways to cut corners to keep costs down enough to make drawing a TV episode profitable. This means plenty of still frames, reused footage, choppy, low-framerate animation, lazy matching lips to voice, and so forth.
Anime episodes can have moments of incredible animation, and I love them, but those are often stuck between a lot of relatively uninteresting work.
Please don't spread lies.
Then by that account you can call almost all of anime fanservice as it targets adults. The people who would buy the merchandise and actually watch the shows at 2 in the morning.
KirbYuuYuu
Member
And again, what is on display is what is airing in the season. I mean there's a reason why threads are called Spring/Summer/Fall(or Autumn)/Winter Anime threads in the title for a reason.
Again, if all we get is a large amount of shows containing moe, there's not much people can do about what's airing. It has always showed what was airing in the season that is ADVERTISED in the topic title.
hosannainexcelsis
Member
Well, I think some people earlier in this thread were mixing up BGBW's original OP posted pre-airing, where he listed more obscure things he was personally interested in as opposed to higher-profile shows, with the current state of the OP, which mostly accurately reflects the currently airing shows being watched. BGBW stated that he did it this way because he didn't know what would be well-received before the season started, so he didn't bother with listing the most anticipated shows until a consensus had developed around them.
At any rate, what I'm getting is that you would prefer a straightforward information-only OP over a quirky poster making an OP based on his own personality.
I would disagree that the current season is outside the norm in the makeup and appeal of TV anime. One Punch Man is the biggest anime in terms of Western popularity since Space Dandy, after all.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Yeah, I would consider it that if the show displayed cuteness and attractiveness of teenagers and younger so obviously.
You like... don't notice how the characters limbs turn into blobs when they move and how there's huge gaps when a body is moving? If it were a video game people would be up in arms.
"Character acting" doesn't come under animation though. How a character emotes comes under how it was drawn, not animated. Although I'd wager most people watch western series like Adventure Time and Steven Universe for the drama and emoting over anything else really even if they originally came as funny comedy series. But that's definitely not the norm, no.
The convenient thing about this AMV is that it features series from when I actively watched anime. Thanks for that. They all seem to be from KyoAni too. I thought the Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya movie was well done if not soooo too long.
I still like anime to an extent (not as much as I used to), but yeah. Those are things I've noticed after such a long time of only (and I mean ONLY) consuming anime for TV and movie entertainment.
im famous
Some of the recommendations are not what most people would necessarily like although BGBW does. Others are legitimate. So you take a half L?
It would be like if DTL made a OT and it covered all the different yaoi pairings and shows.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
This is...debatable. Perhaps not with explicit sexuality but the feelings moe seems designed to indulge come across as skeevy to a lot of us
charlequin
Banned
Can I suggest you and your compatriots come to a collective decision about whether that OP is an uproariously funny joke that no one should take seriously or a helpful and accurate summary of the current state of the anime season and then run with rthat? Because trying to have a discussion with people who are actively asserting both to me simultaneously is pretty irksome.
texhnolyze
Banned
And that's yet another bad stereotype surrounding anime. Just this one.
When a new Gundam movie featuring badass protagonists from the most successful series in the past, that's fanservice.
When an old kamen rider gets a special episode in a brand new kamen rider series, that's also fanservice.
Should I give you more example?
You mean like the CW that airs in the US?
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
The OP was originally different, but a few weeks in the shows people liked like One Punch Man and Haikyuu were added.
And waiting for Blu-ray versions to fix all the problems of the TV cuts. Mekakucity Actors has some real crap in it with 3D models in segments, but the blu-ray release cuts that out and redoes them in 2D animation. Same for Sailor Moon too.
ConfusingJazz
Member
Be quirky, that's fine.
Don't be false.
People shouldn't be laughing at someone because they took recommendations at face value.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Yeah, CW does fanservice with attractive people. The fact the women are showing cleavage in almost every scene is a pretty obvious sign, and it's usually 2 women fighting over 1 man.
Astral Dog
Member
Im not sure, is this supposed to be a good or a bad thing?
"Otakus" ive meet are... well they dress funny with black and necklaces, somethings speak a bit passionate about their hobby or can be a little awkward, but not much. normally decent, easy going people that likes computers, anime, games and dress funny.
But then again here on Mexico things could be very different from the states.
"Otakus" ive meet are... well they dress funny with black and necklaces, somethings speak a bit passionate about their hobby or can be a little awkward, but not much. normally decent, easy going people that likes computers, anime, games and dress funny.
But then again here on Mexico things could be very different from the states.
Shouta
Member
Pokemon, Dragon Ball, and Ghibli are pretty unique examples that have history behind them that allowed them to break into mainstream mind share. I personally think it's pretty clear why those are still covered while other stuff isn't.
As for the other stuff, I can only speculate. Might be easier to discuss it with examples in mind but there could be any number of reasons. The simplest, to me, is that the folks that write just aren't interested. It makes way more sense than anything.
For anime goods, that's way tougher than you think. For one most of it is produced in Japan meaning there are supplier and import stuff to deal with regularly for most US businesses. If they wanted to make their own goods to sell, then they'd still need to deal with Japan the owner's of the properties are there. That's not an easy thing for a small US retailer.
I don't think you need to wonder why Marvel was able to break through. For one, they're a company that is primarily here in the US. It's just much easier for them to do work here. Most of the companies release anime here in the US are folks that just license it from the anime companies and that's usually just the show itself and not goods.
Marvel has also decades of working on movies and television to figure out how to make their stuff popular. It's not like they suddenly hit success out of the blue. They had a lot of attempts over the years, many that were terrible, to get to this point.
As for anime films, I don't think many can ever get the budget that those superhero movies could get so producing a film of similar quality would be pretty difficult. Then there aren't that many people in Hollywood that understand anime well enough to create a movie that both captures the core audience and makes inroads with new viewers. As I said above, it took a long time for Marvel to do so.
They might not be interested? That's the only thing stopping a geek writer from learning. A writer just learning about anime now has all kinds of content to pull from, from all decades, to learn what it's about. There's enough content put out nowadays that is very good even when you factor out the smut.
I guess they could also continue growing their site by focusing on their current readership as well. If it ain't broken, there's no need to fix it and all that.
I just don't buy the argument that it's mostly a content and community issue. The smut issue with anime, which is slightly different than the pandering issue I've talked about in the past, is only relatively recent. I'd say the last 4-6 years or so? It's very new overall. That I can sort of see in the current climate but go back a few years and that reasoning kinda goes poof.
Misunderstanding character acting like this would make Milt Kahl cry. I'm not sure what else to say here. How a character is how a character behaves is conveyed through animation
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
The OP at first was a complete joke, after a while it was edited to just be half a joke.
One Punch Man, Gundam IBO (which somehow hasn't shit the bed yet), Haiykuu! (not a show I'm watching but I know a lot of people are loving it), Lupin III (I'm enjoying it, shut up), Ushio and Tora (I'm behind but its still a good show), etc. I'm not really sure how this is a dry/weak season. There's a lot of good stuff on right now <3
Are you talking about "your favorite anime is shit" stuff? Because that's just people playfully ribbing each other (at least on GAF, I don't go on MAL).
I'm also specifically talking about animation. If you want to argue the average anime is weak on the animation front (or weaker than the West) I can't say I disagree (or rather I straight up agree) but I don't watch "average" stuff I watch "good/great/excellent" stuff. One Punch Man alone, from an action perspective, blows away like 99% of the animated stuff on American TV. Like only Korra recently comes close (though of course that wasn't animated in the States).
Are you talking about "your favorite anime is shit" stuff? Because that's just people playfully ribbing each other (at least on GAF, I don't go on MAL).
I'm also specifically talking about animation. If you want to argue the average anime is weak on the animation front (or weaker than the West) I can't say I disagree (or rather I straight up agree) but I don't watch "average" stuff I watch "good/great/excellent" stuff. One Punch Man alone, from an action perspective, blows away like 99% of the animated stuff on American TV. Like only Korra recently comes close (though of course that wasn't animated in the States).
hosannainexcelsis
Member
Considering K-ON is a family friendly show, has a lot of young fans in Japan, particularly young female fans, and aired on the Disney Channel, that's a poor example to bring up here.
I don't want to speak for someone who obviously isn't online but it's both. BGBW was messing around to an extent like with his Kill Me Baby recommendations but it is also helpful in that it highlights the major shows airing in addition to a few that only him and only a couple of other posters like.
He was talking about posters' avatars, though.
The issue is if someone looks at the OP, confirms their biases, decides they want nothing to do with it and leaves, instead of going "Well, maybe nothing in the OP interests me, but maybe I can post in the thread saying what I do and don't like and maybe I'll get some recommendations and do research on the recommendations I do get and see if any of that will be stuff that I like."
And if you don't keep up with anime, you'd get recommendations for things from all time and not just from whatever's airing that season. There's a ton of anime and a lot of it doesn't get active discussion.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
I'd be fine sitting down and watching it with the rest of my friends like I actually did (pretty mixed group in terms of gender/race/background), sure. My family can barely sit through an episode of classic Simpsons though given how little they care about animation, so while the answer is 'no', the answer would also be 'no' if we were talking about Spirited Away or anything else you'd list as high-brow anime. It's probably not the best example for me in particular.
I think something like K-On, which is ironically way more tame and 'clean', would raise more flags if I was caught watching than something far more immediately bombastic like KlK.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Unfortunately, I think your family, if they didn't care about pronounced teenage vaginal lips being on TV, would take offense to the show. No reasonable person is going to watch it and think, "well, this was visually OK". Ryuuko is 17-years-old and there are younger people on the show too.
I feel like someone should clarify that maybe the reason a lot of people thought it was all a joke is because, at first, the OP WAS (almost?) entirely moe/fanservice, and was obviously a joke. If you read the first few pages of the thread, you'll get an appropriate amount of "what the heck?!" posts, and also a number of sarcastic (and probably a few serious) "great OP" posts.
A few weeks in, once the hits had been established, BGBW edited the OP to include a wider variety of genres and styles. It's still leaning a bit heavy in the direction of Cute Girls Being Cute because that's what BGBW likes (so I'm led to believe!, I'm relatively new to the AnimeGAF community), but it's an accurate portrayal of the current season. I'd also say it's a pretty good OP - solid info, cleanly organized, etc. - compared to a lot of other community thread OPs I've seen, but that's neither here nor there.
I'd disagree with your initial impressions, but your post was definitely not reacting to a joke, besides the whole "GAF-chan" thing, which is undeniably a joke.
EDIT: Looks like I was beaten to the punch by at least one person (hosannainexcelsis), but it doesn't hurt to spell it out twice!
I mean if we just go by the definition of what moe is, then it just means a strong affection (doesn't even have to be love or anything like that, just a strong feeling) towards something. It just happens that the whole cute girls doing cute things is a popular genre right now and that's what people generalize as being moe.
Don't do it lol
That's a less seen form of fan service in anime yeah. The more commonly used connotation associated with the term fan service is more in line with it having to do with more risqué stuff.
Look at how people usually use it online. When there's a beach or hot springs episode people will say it was fanservice. When your examples happen, people will call it a reference or callback but only uncommonly will people say it was fanservice.
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