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Can anyone point me to a good settings profile, specifically for gaming purposes, for the Vizio M55? I haven't noticed any motion blurring yet, at least to the point where it's clearly visible and affecting my experience, and that's with all motion blurring settings turned off to allow for minimal input lag.

I will say though that I'm starting to realize that 4K is still a pipe dream. There's a lot of work you need to do to view 4K content. For one, the YouTube app on the M series does not support, at least to my knowledge, the ability to view 4K videos. I was neither successful in viewing 4K content from the Amazon Prime app. When I finally created a UltraFlix account and logged into the app on my TV, the free content I was able to watch stuttered the entire time, meaning my Internet connection is clearly too slow.

So, without 4K content, is there any benefit in having a 4K TV? Does upscaling 1080p content really produce a better image? There's a lot of conflicting information about this across the web. Some sources claim yes, some claim no. Either way, it seems that a lot is sacrificed (input lag, motion handling, price, etc.) just to achieve the ability to view 4K content that you may or may not actually ever watch. For those reasons, I'm wondering if I would have been better off with a 1080p TV.

There was an earlier post in here claiming how the M60 exhibits less motion blurring over the M55 being as the former sports a 120 Hz panel but if all motion processing technologies are turned off in the interest of minimizing input lag, what benefit is there? See the following post from someone who purchased both models over at the AVS forums:

If you're buying a set purely for low latency console gaming at 60Hz, I don't think you will notice a significant difference going from the M55 to the M60 as you will want to keep GLL on. I tried a number of FPS games (Fallout 3 NV streaming from my PC via NVIDIA Shield, Bioshock and Tomb Raider on PS3 and Bioshock 2 directly from PC via HDMI), and while the motion looks noticeably better on the M60 with GLL OFF, there is too much lag between input and the screen to play effectively. Turning GLL on fixes the lag but also disables the motion handling advantage that the M60 has over the M55 with 60Hz input.

For my setup, I think I could have actually gotten away with the larger 60" size but it doesn't appear that I would have achieved much benefit from the 60", other than the larger size alone, based on my purposes. I still find myself sitting almost as close to the 55" as I did for my 40". Not sure if this is out of habit or because the 55" is still not big enough. Regardless, the 55" is a welcome jump from the 40" and everything I've played thus far felt much more immersive.

On a final note, is this normal? All four corners are noticeably brighter that the rest of the display. This is somewhat exaggerated by the poor IQ quality of my phone's camera but it's definitely there.

img_0217mfu1a.jpg

You tried those already?
http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/vizio/m-series-2015/settings
http://reviews.lcdtvbuyingguide.com/vizio-lcd-tv/vizio-m55-c2.html
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-l...ficial-2015-vizio-4k-uhd-m-series-thread.html shouldn't there be a lot of recommend settings by users?

A certain degree of backlight bleeding is normal, can't really tell if your picture isn't just over exposed or the backlight is really that messy.

Are you otherwise satisfied with the TV?

So i've been looking for a 48 inch TV for the bedroom, would use it for watching movies and some console gaming.

Came across this deal, would you guys recommend it. Or is there any thing out there better for the price?

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/samsung-48-class-47-6-diag--led-1080p-hdtv-black/9481034.p?id=1219704420852&skuId=9481034

Read the reviews and decide for yourself if it's a good purchase for your needs. It's a IPS panel so blacks aren't the best, but for it's good enough for gaming and watching some TV.
http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/by-brand/samsung

Alternative: http://www.bestbuy.com/site/vizio-e...lack/3858066.p?id=1219606086773&skuId=3858066
http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/vizio/e-series-2015
 
So i've been looking for a 48 inch TV for the bedroom, would use it for watching movies and some console gaming.

Came across this deal, would you guys recommend it. Or is there any thing out there better for the price?

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/samsung-48-class-47-6-diag--led-1080p-hdtv-black/9481034.p?id=1219704420852&skuId=9481034

That's a really good TV for sweaty FPS gaming.

http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/j5000

39.1 ms input lag in game mode.
 
I just pulled the trigger on the Samsung 65" UN65J6300 at $1099.

rmBL6nt.jpg


Checked out a ton of Samsung and Sony models, but I just didn't see the value in the more expensive models (4K, curved, etc).

I don't do any 4K, just games and blu rays with some streaming.

I'm leaning toward doing the same for my new media room setup. I'm a bit concerned about the input lag for shooter but I'm definitely not a professional player anyway. 4K is also a bit of a pipe dream here in Canada anyway for the foreseeable future anyway.

All that being said I do like to play my PC games through my home theater setup. Anyone have any experience using this model as a sometimes monitor as well?
 
Depends on it, you can calibrate simple with software and test patterns which isn't the most accurate thing or use additional hardware equipment like spydertv.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aq1XCtOaUPA
http://www.digitaltrends.com/tv-accessories-reviews/spyder4tv-hd-review/
http://www.digitaltrends.com/home-t...1-how-to-tune-up-your-new-lcd-or-plasma-hdtv/
http://www.techhive.com/article/2079503/easily-calibrate-your-new-hdtv.html

Usually using test patterns and a guide are enough for the regular joe, the most important thing is that you are happy with the picture.

Thanks. I just realized that the advanced calibration functions of my JU7500 are not available in "game mode". So even if I did all of this it wouldn't do much for what I do with this TV 99% of the time that I use it.
 
Great, well if this doesn't work out I'll probably opt for a Sony XBR55X810C or X850C.

How noticeable was the blurring? Was it apparent in every game or only in certain situations? On my Samsung LN40C530 I could invoke screen tearing and blurring but only if I violently turned the camera back-in-forth, which in real-world usage I would never do.

No blur issues with 60 fps games but my PS4 doesn't exactly have a ton of those. 30 fps games with drops were horrible. It was most noticeable with trees in the picture, absolute deal breaker when I played Fallout. Like I said I couldn't do it but bringing it up to people on AVS forums they thought I was crazy for seeing the blur trail. Everybody will see it differently.
 
Rtings states that the EG9100 input lag is 43 ms in PC mode, and 52 ms in Game Mode. Does anyone know the input lag with PC + Game Mode, though?
 
I purchased the Vizio M60 a few days ago. I'm really liking the TV, but just wanted to know if there are any settings that would increase display lag for gaming? I connected my ps4 to HDMI 5 and turned on gaming mode. Anything else I should turn on or off in particular?
 
Thank you! You've been tremendously helpful! Is there any way I can tell which content supports 4K? The Amazon Prime app on my Vizio M series does not seem to indicate this information at a glance.

Sadly, my mid-2012 MacBook Air would likely not be able to handle 4K video, let alone running a 4K external display.

No problem. :)

Make sure the Amazon app is updated or you're on the latest firmware for your TV. As discussed way earlier in this thread, for example it took about a month or two before the Amazon app for Sony's new Android TVs got an update for the latest versions of the Amazon and Netflix apps to enable 4K streaming since android tv was so new. The update for both apps were actually included in a firmware update. Not sure if that was also the case on the Vizio's after they came out. I'm pretty sure I read the Vizio M55 has already been updated for Amazon and Netflix 4K streaming.

If you have the updated app then after you log into your Amazon account when I start up the app on the TV my usual home screen added a section you can select named Ultra HD Movies and TV. For now at least it seems like they are grouping everything (?) in there. They don't show up in normal search (atleast for me) but after searching 4K (and uhd) once, which I'm not sure I needed to do, the next time I launched the app the section was there and I was able to look through it. It was pretty straightforward.

In that section the movies and tv shows in there will also have a little UHD thing on the top corner like where the Prime logo goes.

Edit: Yeah, Cnet has a review from July that talks about Amazon and Netflix 4K streaming on the M series so either by default or after update it should be available. And several reviews on Amazon talk about it as well.
 
Looks like backlight blooming. May need a firmware update to fix, if the set local dimming.

In the limited time that I've had the TV, the firmware updated from 1.2.21 to 1.2.23. Between that and adjusting some other settings, the issue I was experiencing does not seem as apparent though the corners of the display are still brighter than other areas, just not as noticeable as before.

You tried those already?
http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/vizio/m-series-2015/settings
http://reviews.lcdtvbuyingguide.com/vizio-lcd-tv/vizio-m55-c2.html
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-l...ficial-2015-vizio-4k-uhd-m-series-thread.html shouldn't there be a lot of recommend settings by users?

A certain degree of backlight bleeding is normal, can't really tell if your picture isn't just over exposed or the backlight is really that messy.

Are you otherwise satisfied with the TV?

I tried applying the settings recommend by rtings.com but was not impressed, and while there are a number of setting profiles over on the AVS forums a lot of them are not geared towards gaming (i.e. GLL set to off, motion control on, etc., etc.). I'm still fishing through that thread though so hopefully I come across something that I can use.

The picture I posted earlier was overexposed but the backlighting, even with a firmware update and adjusting some other settings, is still there, just not as noticeable as before.

I'm mostly satisfied with the TV but nothing has really impressed me yet. Everything looks almost identical to the 5 year old TV I was coming from. Part me wishes I would have opted for a 60" display (4K or 1080p). I'm half tempted to order an M60 (or a comparable equivalent) and then compare the two and decide on which one I want keep. Oh and as far as motion handling is concerned, I'm not sure what exactly I should be looking for. I guess this is a good thing as I have not noticed motion affecting my experience thus far.

On a side note, can anyone comment on how difficult it is to mount a TV? I found a company that will do it for $200 (which includes labor, the mount, and any equipment involved in cable concealment/management) but now I'm thinking maybe I'll try and do this myself. Are there any mounts in particular that are recommended by the NeoGaf community?
 
I purchased the Vizio M60 a few days ago. I'm really liking the TV, but just wanted to know if there are any settings that would increase display lag for gaming? I connected my ps4 to HDMI 5 and turned on gaming mode. Anything else I should turn on or off in particular?

Turn off any motion or judder control.

How do you like the TV so far? I have the M55 but am thinking about exchanging it for larger M60.
 
No problem. :)

Make sure the Amazon app is updated or you're on the latest firmware for your TV. As discussed way earlier in this thread, for example it took a month or two before the Amazon app for Sony's new Android TVs got an update for the latest versions of the Amazon and Netflix apps to enable 4K streaming since android tv was so new. The update for both apps were actually included in a firmware update. Not sure if that was also the case on the Vizio's after they came out. I'm pretty sure I read the Vizio M55 was already updated for Amazon and Netflix 4K streaming.

If you have the updated app then after you log into your Amazon account when I start up the app on the TV my usual home screen added a section you can select named Ultra HD Movies and TV. For now at least it seems like they are grouping everything (?) in there. They don't show up in normal search (atleast for me) but after searching 4K (and uhd) once, which I'm not sure I needed to do, the next time I launched the app the section was there and I was able to look through it. It was pretty straightforward.

In that section the movies and tv shows in there will also have a little UHD thing on the top corner like where the Prime logo goes.

Edit: Yeah, Cnet has a review from July that talks about Amazon and Netflix 4K streaming on the M series so either by default or after update it should be available.

Ok cool, so based on my firmware and the fact that it recently updated, I should be able to view 4K content from the Amazon app. I tried watching some of "The Man in The High Castle" last night but it was only in 1080p. Not sure if this is because my Internet connection can't handle 4K or because I was in the Vizio Amazon app while my PS4 was on, which would have displayed in 1080p.
 
Ok cool, so based on my firmware and the fact that it recently updated, I should be able to view 4K content from the Amazon app. I tried watching some of "The Man in The High Castle" last night but it was only in 1080p. Not sure if this is because my Internet connection can't handle 4K or because I was in the Vizio Amazon app while my PS4 was on, which would have displayed in 1080p.

I only learned this recently myself but when you want the ultra HD version of stuff like The Man in the High Castle, you have to select it from within that Ultra HD movies and tv section. The one on the home screen is actually not 4K/UHD.
 
On a side note, can anyone comment on how difficult it is to mount a TV? I found a company that will do it for $200 (which includes labor, the mount, and any equipment involved in cable concealment/management) but now I'm thinking maybe I'll try and do this myself. Are there any mounts in particular that are recommended by the NeoGaf community?

I replaced a wall mount earlier today in anticipation of the M70 I have arriving later in the week. This is the mount I used: http://amzn.com/B00DLKE7OQ

It took about an hour or so. You'll need a drill, ratchet, screwdriver, and some knowledge on how to use a stud finder, but it's a fairly straight forward task. You'll also need a drywall saw ($10 or so) and some string or a wire coat hanger if you want to run the cords behind the wall. I'm not the handiest of people, but I think I managed ok.
 
just bought un55js9000 to replace Sony 40xbr2 which i bought in 2007. it will be used mostly for games in my bedroom so 55 inch is more then enough. is it a good upgrade? any good setting just for videogames?
 
What do most people on here find acceptable for tolerance of lag when gaming? What's the sweet spot?

17ms and higher is more then a frame of lag on a 60 fps game. Over 33 is 2 frames at 60fps and 1 at 30fps. And so on. Most people will not notice either of those, but you mileage may vary.
 
Turn off any motion or judder control.

How do you like the TV so far? I have the M55 but am thinking about exchanging it for larger M60.

I think the M60 is great! I went from a 40 inch to a 60 inch and it was worth it for sure. I believe the M55 is only 60Hz while the M60 is 120 Hz, so if you have anything that's 120 Hz you should definitely upgrade. I think the 5 extra inches is worth it as well.
 
What do most people on here find acceptable for tolerance of lag when gaming? What's the sweet spot?

Competitive pc gaming for me is <20ms. For my casual console gaming my tv is ~50ms and I'm fine. When I leave all the tweaks on, it's in the ~130ms range which is horrible.

Point is it depends what you want, and others can't tolerate too high of lag just like some people get sick from screen tearing. We're all wired differently.
 
After playing on my CRT, my Samsung LED's motion blur has started bothering me a little. It's a 2011 set, so it's kinda old now. Has there been much progress in making the motion blur better on any sets?

Comparing it to some more recent tv's, mine may actually be a bit worse. Kinda annoyed it's started botheming me, sidescrollers and moving the camera in games.

I'm in Australia too.
 
Have a Vizio E60 before the dimming tech was put in last year. Want to go 65+ without sacrificing / increasing input delay. Are the Vizio 65+ still generally good? Obviously in gaming mode.
 
I'm pretty sure they got the 43ms in PC + Game mode
Can I ask why you're so sure? No mention of that in the article, and they didn't do it in the 9300 review. They said the lowest input lag was around 40ms back then, while a poster here got around 30ms with both enabled. Hoping it's the same for the 9100.
 
Can I ask why you're so sure? No mention of that in the article, and they didn't do it in the 9300 review. They said the lowest input lag was around 40ms back then, while a poster here got around 30ms with both enabled. Hoping it's the same for the 9100.

Why would they bother to mention it in the settings section?

The following screenshots are the picture settings of our LG OLED 55EG9100 TV, following our calibration. You can copy them for every usage, including movies and sports. The only exception is for playing video games, where you will want first to change the icon of the HDMI input to PC to have a lower input lag.

http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/eg9100/settings
 
Why would they bother to mention it in the settings section?



http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/eg9100/settings
I'm not talking about the settings section, though? I'm talking about the input lag section. And why shouldn't they bother to measure the input lag with PC + Game mode, if that's the way to get the lowest input lag? I'm just wondering if the input lag is even lower with both enabled, since that is the case with the 9300.
 
My Best Buy got another 65" JU7500 last Tuesday night (TH01 panel) so I've been putting the TV through it's paces. As with all sets, there is both good and bad:

+ Great color and blacks are better than I was expecting
+ Almost no visible blur. The LCD sets I had tried a few years ago were lousy with it so this is a great improvement.
+ Very low input lag. (21ms) Games feel crisp and fluid
+ Properly calibrated (using the Disney WoW disc), the image looks great, even in Game mode.
+ Upscaled 1080p and 720p content looks great. No complaints
+ PC games in 4K look awesome (4K Outrun 2SP is a thing of beauty)
+ The curve is a non-issue for us. I may even like it while gaming from the center seat
+ No banding
+ No flashlighting

- Some minor clouding (par for LCDs)
- Some DSE, especially along the top and bottom (again, par for LCDs, though I'll say this set has far less than the Sony's and LGs I tried a few years ago)
- Pink smudge/stain. Yes, there is a very slight pink stain/smudge on the bottom left-most 20% of the screen. This is only visible in large sections of grays, greens, etc. This means that it shows up during foggy sections of games, or in golf and other sports games.

I love this TV aside from the imperfections. Love it. I could have lived with the minor DSE and Clouding. After trying so many sets I've accepted that those are just inherent to large-screen LCDs, but the pink stain is probably what will get me to exchange/return this one. If this goes like last time I tried to buy a TV, I will exchange and get one that doesn't have the pink tint but has horrible bands, or flashlighting or whatever. I fucking hate buying a TV.

Thanks. I just realized that the advanced calibration functions of my JU7500 are not available in "game mode".

AFAIK, the only thing you are missing are the 10-point white balance controls. You still have 2-point and all the normal settings. Everything else that's grayed out are enhancement settings that you shouldn't be using in game mode anyway.
 
Man I am really loving my ju7500. It is a thing of beauty.

My Best Buy got another 65" JU7500 last Tuesday night (TH01 panel) so I've been putting the TV through it's paces. As with all sets, there is both good and bad:

+ Great color and blacks are better than I was expecting
+ Almost no visible blur. The LCD sets I had tried a few years ago were lousy with it so this is a great improvement.
+ Very low input lag. (21ms) Games feel crisp and fluid
+ Properly calibrated (using the Disney WoW disc), the image looks great, even in Game mode.
+ Upscaled 1080p and 720p content looks great. No complaints
+ PC games in 4K look awesome (4K Outrun 2SP is a thing of beauty)
+ The curve is a non-issue for us. I may even like it while gaming from the center seat
+ No banding
+ No flashlighting

- Some minor clouding (par for LCDs)
- Some DSE, especially along the top and bottom (again, par for LCDs, though I'll say this set has far less than the Sony's and LGs I tried a few years ago)
- Pink smudge/stain. Yes, there is a very slight pink stain/smudge on the bottom left-most 20% of the screen. This is only visible in large sections of grays, greens, etc. This means that it shows up during foggy sections of games, or in golf and other sports games.

I love this TV aside from the imperfections. Love it. I could have lived with the minor DSE and Clouding. After trying so many sets I've accepted that those are just inherent to large-screen LCDs, but the pink stain is probably what will get me to exchange/return this one. If this goes like last time I tried to buy a TV, I will exchange and get one that doesn't have the pink tint but has horrible bands, or flashlighting or whatever. I fucking hate buying a TV.



AFAIK, the only thing you are missing are the 10-point white balance controls. You still have 2-point and all the normal settings. Everything else that's grayed out are enhancement settings that you shouldn't be using in game mode anyway.


Oh yeah I used ring's settings for that stuff. Except I don't like Warm2 and I stuck with standard. Warm2 felt too red.

BTW, do you calibrate only with the Disney WoW Disc? Or do you also use some kind of a sensor that you attach to your TV?
 
I just put in an order for the LG 65EF9500 65" flat OLED to be delivered this Friday! I'm so excited for this TV and its mind-blowing picture.

I'm aware that there has been an issue on some of these sets of yellow banding on the right half of the screen, so I'm going to take care to watch for that and make sure to exchange it if I see it. Hopefully I get a good one!
 
I just put in an order for the LG 65EF9500 65" flat OLED to be delivered this Friday! I'm so excited for this TV and its mind-blowing picture.

I'm aware that there has been an issue on some of these sets of yellow banding on the right half of the screen, so I'm going to take care to watch for that and make sure to exchange it if I see it. Hopefully I get a good one!

Looking at this same model and am also worried about image retention and screen burn. Anyone have any issues with HUDs or any gaming elements burning in?
 
I'm not talking about the settings section, though? I'm talking about the input lag section. And why shouldn't they bother to measure the input lag with PC + Game mode, if that's the way to get the lowest input lag? I'm just wondering if the input lag is even lower with both enabled, since that is the case with the 9300.

We meant the same thing.

However this could be helpful:
For those gamers out there, the LG has a game mode with lower input lag. In game mode you will see 50ms of lag while in ISF Expert 1 you will see 108ms of lag. 50ms is slower than some other displays, but it should let you game OK. Renaming the input to PC further drops this down to 40ms.
http://referencehometheater.com/review/lg-55eg9100-oled-review/
 
I picked up a 55" Sony x810c this past weekend from Best Buy. $999. Very very happy with it. It's missing HDR and 3D from the higher end x850c model, but rtings.com gave it a higher rating due to much higher contrast, better motion, and the fact that it's direct backlit instead of edge lit.
 
I just put in an order for the LG 65EF9500 65" flat OLED to be delivered this Friday! I'm so excited for this TV and its mind-blowing picture.

I'm aware that there has been an issue on some of these sets of yellow banding on the right half of the screen, so I'm going to take care to watch for that and make sure to exchange it if I see it. Hopefully I get a good one!
Ohh, good luck dude. I can't fucking wait to get on the OLED train when the prices drop a bit more. Hope you get a good panel.

Looking at this same model and am also worried about image retention and screen burn. Anyone have any issues with HUDs or any gaming elements burning in?
None of these sets have had a burn in issue from what I've read on internet (AVS, other sites). Apparently when the TV shuts off it does something that prevents IR and burn in from happening
 
Zero issues despite playing battlefront for 8 hrs straight the other night.

Ohh, good luck dude. I can't fucking wait to get on the OLED train when the prices drop a bit more. Hope you get a good panel.


None of these sets have had a burn in issue from what I've read on internet (AVS, other sites). Apparently when the TV shuts off it does something that prevents IR and burn in from happening

God that's fantastic to hear. I'd be running this as a monitor too, so thins like browser windows and task bars can be on screen for a long time.

This set is seriously tempting me. The 55" is more in my price range, and it's even listed on a few sites for $2,100. I'm too picky for tv shopping this shit drives me crazy.
 
Picked up the Vizio M60-C3. Adjusting to playing on a 60inch has been really interesting and I think I need to adjust my setup a bit because of lighting in the room reflecting on the TV. Other than getting used to it, I really, really like the TV. I need to pick up the Disney WOW disc to calibrate it, I just used the Xbox One calibration thing for now.
 
Picked up the Vizio M60-C3. Adjusting to playing on a 60inch has been really interesting and I think I need to adjust my setup a bit because of lighting in the room reflecting on the TV. Other than getting used to it, I really, really like the TV. I need to pick up the Disney WOW disc to calibrate it, I just used the Xbox One calibration thing for now.
I've been looking at the 65" and 70" versions of that TV, so any impressions on it for gaming would be great.
 
I've been looking at the 65" and 70" versions of that TV, so any impressions on it for gaming would be great.

I've been using my Wii U on it since it's got really good input lag and have been having no issues at all, really responsive. 50" tho.
 
BTW, do you calibrate only with the Disney WoW Disc? Or do you also use some kind of a sensor that you attach to your TV?

I usually start with somebody's settings to see if I like them (RTINGS in this case) and then use the WoW disc and the included filter from there to tailor to taste. In this case, the RTINGS settings were pretty spot-on, though I went to Warm1 instead of Warm2. Standard is too blue to me.
 
Picked up a 50" Panasonic U50 for a few hundred bucks today. Found a local seller looking to unload it before moving across the country. He was more of an audio guy so he barely used it. Went into the service menu to verify and he wasn't kidding. Heck, he still had the original plastic lining the bezel.

It's the last truly great gaming plasma so I'm pretty dang happy. No smart bullshit running in the background or extraneous processing bogging it down so they measure in at ~14ms of input lag* in any picture mode. (like many Panasonics over the years, Game mode is nothing more than a duplicate of Custom and merely included as a bulletpoint)

*
Leo Bodnar misreports plasmas by ~13ms.
 
Well, I ended up going with the Samsung 65" 8500. With the sale the price was less than the 7100 so it was hard to resist. Slightly more input lag (7ms) but I don't think I will notice.

I'll update with some impressions for console/PC once I get things up and running.
 
I've heard they misreport lag too, but where did you read that specific number?

Independent testing done by AVS members. Review outlets have acknowledged the issue but only good old enthusiasts dug deep enough to come up with a reproducible number. Then again, I don't blame reviewers for not wasting their time since, you know, plasma is dead. :'(
 

I read that and bought it not expecting to use it, but noted here
http://www.cnet.com/products/vizio-e-series-2015/
The local dimming is actually pretty good for a set in this price range (12 zones on 60"). They use it in their settings as well.

Works fine for me and looks good but I don't really need it as I watch in dark room , mostly game and the contrast is already pretty good.
 
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