I'm wary of casting too much blame on Berman and Braga (as seems to be popular). There's a bunch of evidence that there were a lot of cooks involved in Voyager and Enterprise (whereas DS9 was largely left alone by the network).
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My journey through Star Trek for the first time
- Thread starter Cindi Mayweather
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I'm wary of casting too much blame on Berman and Braga (as seems to be popular). There's a bunch of evidence that there were a lot of cooks involved in Voyager and Enterprise (whereas DS9 was largely left alone by the network).
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Wow. Now I don't want to watch Voyager or Enterprise. TNG style episodes? Ugh.
And Moore and Behr wrote the Klingon episodes I like? No wonder. They're BSG as fuck.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Now you've got my curiosity.
I suppose that's true. Roddenberry's idiotic ban on interpersonal conflict certainly hurt TNG. But I'm not too familiar with UPN's interference in Voyager. Care to fill me in?
Yep. Season 3 of Enterprise is basically like a hybrid of DS9 and 24. Season 4 feels more like TNG (in a good way).
Cindi Mayweather
Member
I read about that in the original TNG bible and I have no idea what he was thinking.
The Bible in general has a lot of questionable material and shows that Roddenberry wasn't the all seeing creative force people always claim him to be.
4th season of Enterprise is pretty good. I haven't seen third, but I am curious.
Good stuff. That's when the show really takes off, although there are some gems in the first two seasons. (There are also some absolutely banal aspects, such as lame attempts at sexing up the Trek for hipper 2001 crowds, but it's worth persevering.)
Something really big happens at the end of Season 2 and since Enterprise is a prequel there's really only one ship Earth can count on to help. Things get pretty intense from thereon out.
No one's really talking on Voyager, unfortunately. The new Enterprise blu-rays contain a whole bunch of candid interviews from the producers and cast about the turmoil that occurred in production. Studio interference, that kind of thing.
But it's all he said, she said. I doubt we'll ever know the true story of what happened on those shows. I just hate placing the blame on Berman and Braga because both have done good work in the past and I'm sure the truth is more complicated.
Some of the best episodes Enterprise ever did are in the third season.
All we really know with Voyager is that fledgling UPN needed to ensure it was "very accessible" (which limited its ability to tell more serialized stories, but given the premise of the show that would be rather difficult anyway) and after the third season there was a big mandate to shake things up, which led to a blatant T&A-style hire.
The real shocker is that Jeri Ryan was a good find. She is one of the best actors on the show and her arrival actually helps out significantly.
The real shocker is that Jeri Ryan was a good find. She is one of the best actors on the show and her arrival actually helps out significantly.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
RE: Enterprise. Thoughts on this exchange in the ST general thread?
Ok I remember some stuff about Voyager now:
They were originally going to kill off Harry Kim when they killed Kes off, but they changed their plans because the actor that played Kim got onto one of those most beautiful people lists and the TPTB wanted him to stick around. So, one of the more interesting characters was sacrificed for one of the most boring.
They were originally going to kill off Harry Kim when they killed Kes off, but they changed their plans because the actor that played Kim got onto one of those most beautiful people lists and the TPTB wanted him to stick around. So, one of the more interesting characters was sacrificed for one of the most boring.
I can understand Riker appreciating jazz music because at that point in the future jazz would probably be viewed in a similar way to how Picard would listen to Bach, it's all very classical music. The Enterprise crew never watching anything modern outside of Archer's water polo was weird though.
Maybe the reason there's no good modern music in TNG is because music continues the downward trend of the present day where everything new is just more and more crap. /s
not really /s
Your comments remind me a great deal of my friend's, haha. She really hates this aspect of Trek.
I don't disagree per se, but at the end of the day the studio needed to ensure the franchise wasn't any denser than it already was. Those "hey, gee, they like stuff from our era" and "close to our era" moments were ultimately intended to ground the future a little bit, silly as they are.
This is absolutely one of the worst things about Star Trek. It's like you said earlier, it's a pervasive nerdiness that is really unappealing. I want to say that TOS is the least harmed by this trope and DS9 does ok too, but I might have my blinders on towards that show.
Yep, just so. People Magazine ranked Garrett Wang as one of the sexiest men on TV, and so he recovered from his sickbay stint at the end of the previous season. Saved by the bell.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
They're just extremely cornball.
The only thing we do in our off time is listen to crew members play classical music or play poker!
TOS is harder to get into than TNG or any of the newer series. It's mostly because TOS has a much different pace than the other shows in my opinion. TNG onwards usually have primary plots and B plots that go on simultaneously, which helps the shows pacing a lot, while TOS tends to only have one storyline and it makes some episodes drag.
The episodes are also longer, about 50 minutes each. I found the pacing very slow when I tried rewatching them recently.
Haha, I know. It could have been handled far better.
Then again, early in TNG's run it tried to handle it better, and instead we got...
Although that frisbee-shooting game looks fun.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
TOS is easier to get into than TNG. Its stories are generally better written. There's a sense of mystery. There's a sense of exploration. There's a sense of danger. Despite all of the "the Enterprise is in danger!" Episodes in TNG, the crew never truly feels in danger. TOS has more drama, better character arcs. Its secondary cast is a bit worse off, but the stories make it all worth it.
The first episode of TOS is The Man Trap. A story of an alien, the last of its kind, trying survive. Tales of old requited love, take of survival, a tale of love that goes beyond mere sacrifice.
TNG's first episode...I don't even remember. It's pretty bad.
TOS' first episode is rife with danger and adventure and questions and more questions.
When you look past the dated sets and costumes, TOS is far easier to get into than TNG. ignore the superficial (how it looks) and embrace what story it's telling.
The first episode of TOS is The Man Trap. A story of an alien, the last of its kind, trying survive. Tales of old requited love, take of survival, a tale of love that goes beyond mere sacrifice.
TNG's first episode...I don't even remember. It's pretty bad.
TOS' first episode is rife with danger and adventure and questions and more questions.
When you look past the dated sets and costumes, TOS is far easier to get into than TNG. ignore the superficial (how it looks) and embrace what story it's telling.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Space jellyfish, Cindi.
Like I said.
Box of Kittens
Banned
Season 3 of Enterprise is heavily serialized, although I think it hasn't aged very well unfortunately. It really comes across as something that was made shortly after 9/11, and that causes some issues. Season 4 was overall the strongest, and it did the best job of focusing on the events leading up to the founding of the Federation, but at times it gets really gratuitous in referencing elements from the other series.
I can definitely appreciate that opinion. I see where you're coming from and I get it. Certain elements are very period-specific, but the overall package still thrills me. Watched it with my roommates (including the aforementioned "this contemporary music in Star Trek thing has got to go" chica) and I think it's still got it. I especially love how much stronger a captain Archer is by the end.
I feel like TOS definitely had its problems outside of the design.
They ran into how many different mysterious, godlike alien beings? How many times did they go to the "this scary human can move things with his mind" story? How many times did they go to the Planet That Is Exactly Like Earth's History?
cascardian
Member
How no one has yet expressed their undying love of Garak's character is beyond me.
Anyway, OP, if you're like me and like some serialisation in your sci-fi, you are indeed in a for a serious treat. I feel that apart from some few-and-far-between stinkers (which are still better than TNG's), DS9, especially starting from "Duet", is nearly all killer and surprisingly little filler (coming from TNG). Basically, if you thought nothing of consequence was ever happening on Trek, DS9 is the series for you. Voyager had an awesome concept and comparatively wasted it on too little serialisation and too much reset button pressing.
Enterprise is a strange topic for me. I basically snoozed through all the non-Temporal Cold War episodes (which many people hated, strangely) that were not of "Shadows of P'Jem" quality (which were more than I would've liked), woke up at season 2's "Regeneration" and stayed wide awake until the disappointing cancellation. Like Stargate Universe, it was cancelled when it finally found its voice.
Anyway, OP, if you're like me and like some serialisation in your sci-fi, you are indeed in a for a serious treat. I feel that apart from some few-and-far-between stinkers (which are still better than TNG's), DS9, especially starting from "Duet", is nearly all killer and surprisingly little filler (coming from TNG). Basically, if you thought nothing of consequence was ever happening on Trek, DS9 is the series for you. Voyager had an awesome concept and comparatively wasted it on too little serialisation and too much reset button pressing.
Enterprise is a strange topic for me. I basically snoozed through all the non-Temporal Cold War episodes (which many people hated, strangely) that were not of "Shadows of P'Jem" quality (which were more than I would've liked), woke up at season 2's "Regeneration" and stayed wide awake until the disappointing cancellation. Like Stargate Universe, it was cancelled when it finally found its voice.
I liked them, but I can see why people didn't. Ultimately the Temporal Cold War never went anywhere, so in the final analysis it was just an excuse to have some time travel shenanigans and big action episodes. I liked most of the individual episodes on that basis, but as a complete arc it was basically nothing. The Xindi arc wasn't quite the same thing, though I guess you could look at it as a TCW spinoff, if you really wanted. None of the pre-established factions had much of anything to do with it.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
I feel like TOS' strengths out weigh its negatives. I can't say the same for TNG because it's longer and has more material.
TOS also has the benefit of six good to fantastic movies.
TOS also has the benefit of six good to fantastic movies.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Descent part 1 - "this is pretty good, let's see where it goes."
Descent part 2 - "this is fucking stupid."
Descent part 2 - "this is fucking stupid."
Night Hunter
Banned
I got the DVDs a few weeks ago and am currently in season 2 od DS9.
Best Trek, and it's not even close!
I mean yes, there are a few stinkers here and there, but overall every season is at least solid, even 1 and 2. TNG or TOS might have higher highs, but also lower lows if you ask me.
Best Trek, and it's not even close!
I mean yes, there are a few stinkers here and there, but overall every season is at least solid, even 1 and 2. TNG or TOS might have higher highs, but also lower lows if you ask me.
I like the idea of giving Crusher more to do, but her subplot is just so... "bad TNG."
Fun fact: that dickish Starfleet dude on the bridge with her is James Horan, AKA Skullface from MGSV.
Haha, I know. It could have been handled far better.
Then again, early in TNG's run it tried to handle it better, and instead we got...
Although that frisbee-shooting game looks fun.
How dare you bad mouth Anbo Jitsu, the ultimate form of the martial arts.
lmfao
cascardian
Member
Still, I thought it was a nice tie-in. And from what I've read, season 5 and the rest that was planned was supposed to go even deeper into it (revealing who the Suliban benefactor was, for instance.
It was planned to be Archer, no joke
Anyway, I don't really know how DS9 could have possibly gone so well given the other shows' relative failures compared to it, but there it is. It could be the steady setting which forced the narrative to be more concentrated. It could be that executive meddling was at a fortunate minimum. It could be all and/or more of those things. I wouldn't say none of them.
Definitely a mix of these. Ira Steven Behr and Ron Moore have always talked up how the show avoided network interference thanks to its syndication package, and how the ratings never really collapsed but nor did they ever soar, which put it at a fun little happy place where people largely left it alone to do its own thing (although there was a discernible enough slump in the third year that the Klingon changes going into the fourth were introduced). Ultimately, I attribute it to the setting first and foremost, which is amusing given that many folks who have not given it a fair shake find the idea of a "static" scenario to be a tremendous turnoff. (Indeed, this was a big criticism at the time of airing.)
Also, I think TNG is totally accessible if you follow this guide
tl;dr you can comfortably skip the majority of season 1. Maybe watch the first episode because it introduces the characters and Skin of Evil because
Then jump into season 2 and never look back.
I would say if you're curious about TNG watch Measure of a Man, since it's TNG at its best and is pretty straightforward enough to just jump into without knowing the characters super well. From there you can decide whether or not the show is for you.
I actually really really like TNG's episodic nature because it means you can skip around and not feel completely lost
tl;dr you can comfortably skip the majority of season 1. Maybe watch the first episode because it introduces the characters and Skin of Evil because
Tasha's death is a pretty big deal in the overall arc of the series, especially when it comes to Data's character arc.
I would say if you're curious about TNG watch Measure of a Man, since it's TNG at its best and is pretty straightforward enough to just jump into without knowing the characters super well. From there you can decide whether or not the show is for you.
I actually really really like TNG's episodic nature because it means you can skip around and not feel completely lost
What bugged me about the whole Temporal Cold War stuff in Enterprise was basically "where were the time travel cops from Voyager?". Anytime Captain Janeway even sneezed a time cop would show up to tell her to stop fucking around. You'd think either the Temporal Cold War or the First Contact movie aftermath in Enterprise would have brought them into the fold.
People keep linking this but I don't think it's a good list.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
You mean episodic?
yeah, sorry, brain fart.
I really enjoy that TNG is basically a series of short stories. I am not a huge fan of getting invested in a five-season long story that might have a shitty payoff.
I realize this is a preference thing.
It's not perfect but it's a good starting point, I think. Like, follow it up to Season 3 and then make your own decision on what to see, maybe checking IMDB once in a while to make sure the episode you're on isn't a clunker.
There's a bunch of episodes I like that aren't on that list, like the aforementioned Sarek, Hollow Pursuits, and The Most Toys.
If nothing else, I wholly agree Measure of a Man is pretty much a litmus test as to whether or not you'd like TNG.
In retrospect one of Voyager's most hilarious scenes is when Janeway, in early Season 3, rants about how much she hates time travel.
I'm sorry, early Janeway. You have no idea how much the universe is about to spite you for saying that.
Maybe Daniels was one of those time cops. We don't know because they never thought this stuff through at all.
It's a shame because there was so much potential there and then the second part makes all the wrong choices.
cascardian
Member
I freely admit to have been one of those people. Imagine my surprise when I encountered sharp character writing tackling sociopolitical and interpersonal conflict all over the spectrum. It was ahead of its time and is still very relevant today. I intend no disrespect, but Roddenberry's Trek died with it, and holy hell was it better for it.
Marathon it over the holidays, OP, marathon it hard.
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