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My journey through Star Trek for the first time
- Thread starter Cindi Mayweather
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Cindi Mayweather
Member
You mean people didn't like how DS9 concentrates on relatively the same location?
Wait, Roddenberry's Star Trek died with DS9? How is the series all the better for this?
One of the things I do love about DS9's character writing is that it wasn't afraid to make you hate a character. For instance, I really dislike Maj. Kira. Now, it's not because she is a poorly written character, as she is just the opposite. Rather, it's because they weren't afraid to take her character places and expose her inner feelings and thoughts to the audience for better or worse. It's refreshing to have a Trek character who has a unique way of looking at things that totally conflicts with the morals or thought process' of all the other characters and the show doesn't force any one side down your throat as the "right" side.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Phantasms - another exploration of Data's human stuff. Pretty boring. I used to like Data but now I kind of abhor his character after having to deal with his shit for over 6 seasons. The ending and pay off was worth it, though. What a mind fuck, but for the love of God no more Data.
There was -- and has always been -- a perception of automatic boredom in the notion of a Star Trek series that is not set primarily on a spaceship that travels the galaxy all the time. The idea appeals to me greatly, and it always has, ever since I was a kid. And it tends to appeal to a great many folks who finally relent and give it a chance (a friend of mine resisted since we were 11 and he's 28 and finally broke down and watched it!).
The first season doesn't help matters. When it debuted, DS9 had a shaky pilot that promised a lot of development, followed almost immediately by a whole slew of TNG-lite episodes.
Roddenberry passed away a few years into TNG's run, and his health had been failing for a bit before that. Early TNG is largely his baby, and it shows a change in philosophy in the 20 years since TOS that makes it kind of an embarrassingly bad watch. The man was a visionary, but his TNG edicts held that show back hard. When other's stepped in -- Pillar, Moore, and certainly the oft-maligned Berman and Braga -- TNG improved and DS9 got the greenlight.
And the 24th century was never the same.
Roddenberry seems to have started to drink his own Kool Aid during the years between TOS and TNG. Progressive ideas like the multi-cultural bridge crew turned into these lofty peaceful ideals that really weren't anywhere in the original series and were terrible for drama.
If I recall correctly, he wasn't allowed anywhere near any of the TOS movies after the first one, which explains part of the difference between TMP and WOK.
If I recall correctly, he wasn't allowed anywhere near any of the TOS movies after the first one, which explains part of the difference between TMP and WOK.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Unfortunately sounds like it. No interpersonal drama: why?
Box of Kittens
Banned
If I have a big complaint about the first season, it's that a lot of the plots (particularly in the first half of the season) feel like they would have worked just as well on TNG. Between that and using the wormhole mainly as a way to bring in the Alien of the Week, it felt like they hadn't figured out how to use the setting yet. I can still enjoy those episodes for their character development, but it wouldn't be clear at this point just how much DS9 would bring to the table that was really new and fresh for Trek.
EDIT: The idea behind "no interpersonal drama" was that humanity would have evolved past it by the 24th century. I'm pretty sure this motivated some of the decisions for the premise of DS9 and Voyager (mixed Starfleet/Bajoran crew in DS9 and mixed Starfleet/Maquis crew in VOY) to get around this problem while still having no interpersonal conflicts among Starfleet officers.
Some of those S1 scripts were retooled TNG ideas. There was a real fear at the studio that the world wasn't ready for a space show with tons of serialized elements, and it had to be convinced over time.
Which is a little bit funny.
(Then again, chief "rival" Babylon 5 sort of started out in the same boat.)
Box of Kittens
Banned
Yeah, I seem to recall Marina Sirtis complaining about DS9 stealing good TNG stories but I can't find any quotes to that effect right now. Certainly she was no fan of DS9.
Goodness, no. I wish I could find the link (on second thought, wish is a strong word) but she recently criticized it yet again, even.
Hey, nothing but the best for ya, Marina, but if you thought "Move Along Home" was a worthy TNG idea shamelessly stolen by the brigands of Terok Nor, maybe we all need to re-evaluate the strength of the average TNG idea.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Wait what?
Troi's actress is known to criticize DS9, so I made a geeky joke about hee criticisms. That's all.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
What has she said about DS9?
That it stole TNG stories, that it was comparatively dull, that her show was the "real" show... a lot of it seems to stem from her being relatively unhappy with TNG ending when it did. Much of the cast and crew was glad it didn't just speed on into decade-length drivel, that it went out on the top of its ratings threshold and with a reasonable degree of goodwill. Mrs. Sirtis has always wished it kept going, and I hypothesize that this has factored into her perception of DS9.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
How in the world could it steal TNG stories beyond season 1? I'm not even sure what her problem is considering that they got four movies out their show and DS9 didn't get one. So in a lot of ways, TNG lasted longer than even DS9.
To be honest, she just sounds jealous because she realizes her show wasn't the better show and if she had been on DS9 her character would have been filled out rather than be perpetual eye candy for five seasons.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Parallels - another "everything is changing on the enterprise but I'm the only one who see it!" esque episode in the tradition of Remember Me and Phantasms. Not even my love for Worf saves this episode. I'm utterly fatigued with TNG and want it to end already. Episode is terrible. Solve the mystery! The mystery will be solved by the end of episode. Nothing matters.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
I'm not sure if my idea of good Trek runs contrary to what others find to be good Trek or what, but I hated it. I've hated every episode I've seen in season 7 so far even going down the list of suggested episodes posted before.
I doubt your idea is totally removed from mine. You like strong characterization and ongoing story arcs that are given their just dues, right? Real "space opera" fare? That's me in a nutshell; there are just some assorted one-off TNG-style eps which I also dig.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Yes!
One offs aren't inherently bad either. A good one off example would be The Survivors. Or the episode where there's a malfunction at a Federation monitoring post and an alien civilization thinks they're Gods. Or the one where Data has to convince a planet that is going to die to evacuate. Where the mystery is worth solving and isn't just a bunch of random bullshit.
Sometimes you need them to pad and give the universe texture, but it rarely ever really does. Honestly, I can't blame some people for thinking Star Trek is boring.
I am near the end of S5 of DS9 and while I love nearly every episode, each credits roll is one step closer to never seeing these characters again. Damn. The plot lines are wonderful.
TNG I am watching through simultaneously, but right now I am only halfway through S1, so it is just okay.
TNG I am watching through simultaneously, but right now I am only halfway through S1, so it is just okay.
Me neither. I hear you. I think part of it may be that you're just so burned-out on TNG, but I'm pretty much with you on all this. My perfect Trek would be something even more serialzied than DS9 that is still eager to hop in and tell several one-off world-building stories that are worth a damn every season.
<3
Do what I do and find friends to introduce to Trek every few years.I've converted like 20 just in my area! It gives me the excuse to rewatch DS9 every once in a while, and to do so with fresh eyes beside me.
Finally on Season 7 of TNG. Started following the 40 hour guide but added probably 15-20 other episodes along the way.
I've only been bummed about two or three episodes so far, wishing I had the 46 minutes back. Other than that, it's been a blast. Can't decide if I try to watch DS9 after this or jump into Voyager and see if it still remains my favorite Trek series on a rewatch since I haven't seen an episode since it went off air.
I've only been bummed about two or three episodes so far, wishing I had the 46 minutes back. Other than that, it's been a blast. Can't decide if I try to watch DS9 after this or jump into Voyager and see if it still remains my favorite Trek series on a rewatch since I haven't seen an episode since it went off air.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
I mean, I LIKE TNG. But seven seasons of it...
I actually started watching TNG because my brother decided to join in on my Star Trek.. trek.. so I am planning to take him through DS9 after we finish (or maybe give up, seven seasons is so much) TNG.
It is hard going from the peak of DS9 to the worst seasons of TNG, though. *MAJOR DS9 SPOILER*
I mean the Cardassians just joined the Dominion! What the fuck!
Cindi Mayweather
Member
The Pegasus - solid episode with some chips in its armor. It is fully willing to grand stand and navel gaze a moral high ground despite the fact that the very illegal technology they moralize is so awful, actually saved them from doom. Never is this viewpoint considered with any authenticity and it fully encapsulates TNG's worst flaws: its pretentious view of order with zero consideration for opposing viewpoints despite its willingness to have philosophical episodes such as this. In this universe, black and white prevails under 100% certainty. Still a good episode despite that.
Homeward - fantastic all around.
Homeward - fantastic all around.
I'm not a big Riker fan at all, so it always surprises me when I rewatch "The Pegasus" and kind of fall in love with the episode all over again despite that crutch. Certainly one of his best outings.
Oh man, that spoiler,. I know. My little nine-year-old heart could not take it when it first aired. I practically fell on the floor in shock. (Don't read that,Cindi!)
Oh man, that spoiler,. I know. My little nine-year-old heart could not take it when it first aired. I practically fell on the floor in shock. (Don't read that,Cindi!)
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Yeah, I don't like Riker at all. Always smiling, brown-nosing bore. But he does good in that episode and that one with the play.
The one where he keeps warping back to an alien mental ward? That one's great, yeah.
SillyEskimo
Member
I watched the first 3 episodes of the original seires with my wife. After we were finished, our conversation went something like this:
Her "We're not going to watch all of them are we?"
Me "Fuck no"
Her "Thank christ"
Although we may try the first episodes of other series when we hit a show drought again some day.
Her "We're not going to watch all of them are we?"
Me "Fuck no"
Her "Thank christ"
Although we may try the first episodes of other series when we hit a show drought again some day.
I hate to break it to you, but as a general rule, the first episodes of every Star Trek show are among the worst.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
What did you not like about it?
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Lower Decks - Top 5 best TNG episode. This is the bulk of what TNG should have been. The amount of unused characters such as Ogawa is downright criminal and it's a shame it took them all of this time to put personality to paper and actually give her a story. Same for the others. TNG is a case of a show that doesn't take full advantage of its setting. It had a huge benefit over TOS in a narrative sense in that it's a peace keeping vessel with families and children and nurseries on board. But rarely are these areas explored. Instead of exploring the mundanity of the 24th century, TNG wallows around and kicks rocks inside Holodecks, giving us crappy Sherlock Holmes episodes. TNG has a setting unique from TOS, and never takes fully advantage of that until this episode, in its final season. If the direction were more of a ship-wide story, BSG-style, that told to tell of people on the Enterprise no matter of station or rank or even whether or not they were in the Federation, the story would be better off.
This is what TNG should have been. It's even in the show's name: The Next Generation. TOS' structure was already 20 years old by the time TNG aired, and rather than try to go after what that show did, TNG should have evolved and went for different territory. What possible new stories for new races could you possibly come up with after all of the stuff that happens in TOS, not much. So despite the "encountering new life forms" tag in the opening credits, TNG has actual very little of it. And when it does, and it's good, like with the Borg, it doesn't explore to its fullest potential. What are the people in the lower decks thinking of some of the decisions and things that happen throughout the course of the series? We don't know, and we are only left to assume. What would unexperienced Starfleet ensigns think of the Borg? What about the families that live there? As it is, it mostly stands as wasted potential and the Enterprise exists as a mere backdrop rather than a realized setting. The potential that Lower Decks shows us that the series always had in it. Lower Decks shows a more human, and character-based TNG that hints at potential that was never truly realized.
A shame.
This is what TNG should have been. It's even in the show's name: The Next Generation. TOS' structure was already 20 years old by the time TNG aired, and rather than try to go after what that show did, TNG should have evolved and went for different territory. What possible new stories for new races could you possibly come up with after all of the stuff that happens in TOS, not much. So despite the "encountering new life forms" tag in the opening credits, TNG has actual very little of it. And when it does, and it's good, like with the Borg, it doesn't explore to its fullest potential. What are the people in the lower decks thinking of some of the decisions and things that happen throughout the course of the series? We don't know, and we are only left to assume. What would unexperienced Starfleet ensigns think of the Borg? What about the families that live there? As it is, it mostly stands as wasted potential and the Enterprise exists as a mere backdrop rather than a realized setting. The potential that Lower Decks shows us that the series always had in it. Lower Decks shows a more human, and character-based TNG that hints at potential that was never truly realized.
A shame.
"Lower Decks" is powerful. Agreed with everything you posted here.
All well and good, but he's just really, really boring to me 90% of the time.
bengraven
Member
I really love the rebuilding aspect of the show. The settling in. I miss that later on.
IISANDERII
Member
One of the most amazing things about all of Trek involves Worf. Spoilers for season 7 TNG:
When watching season 1, who could've foretold that at some point in the show, Worf would be romantically linked with Troi? Completely Incomprehensible I think. It's amazing how far things came not just in the show but in culture too I guess, from the late 80's to the mid 90's to accept and embrace this on a huge show. Yes there have been interracial relationships on Tv in the past but Worf was the big, scary, ugly alien secondary/tertiary character and that he would end up with the show's central female astounds me. Yea he was whitewashed[humanwashed] some by the final season but I still think it's amazing progress, far more remarkable than just a kiss or a married couple who sleeps in twin beds.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
All I can do is this
and this
I gave up a life with a woman I love for my career, but I'm still not captain because I only want one ship and one ship only!
Cindi Mayweather
Member
The Lower Decks could hold the key to Trek's future.
IMO, this is the tone, writing, and type of setting that the new series should strive for.
IMO, this is the tone, writing, and type of setting that the new series should strive for.
I'm currently on my 3rd (or 4th, can't remember) run through of DS9, my favorite Trek.
Loving it as much as always. Just finished off the 2 parter that introduces the Maquis near the end of S2. Great stuff. I love every character for a different reason, they really are well written.
Loving it as much as always. Just finished off the 2 parter that introduces the Maquis near the end of S2. Great stuff. I love every character for a different reason, they really are well written.
I'm thinking of doing a ~monthly post on different things I want to see out of the new series, over in the News/Speculation thread I made a few days ago. You should join me!
Everyone should join me!
I think I'm on my sixth or so? I know people who make it a yearly thing, though, and they haven't missed a year. That's too much DS9 even for me. >_>
I've apparently gotten locked into a bet with an old friend of mine where we're going to go through all of DS9 in three weeks. I thought he was joking! Shit, I have no idea how I'm gonna do eight episodes a day.
"Lower Decks" is particularly interesting to me because of the way it breaks down the command structure. All of a sudden, thanks to how developed these lower ranked guest stars are, we have a completely different look at the main cast, how they go about their days and how much power they have over the people under them.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
First Born - First episode of Star Trek to make me cry. A+ episode.
First Born - First episode of Star Trek to make me cry. A+ episode.
Huh. I don't know, man. Maybe you should watch the whole season because you seem to like the episodes that everyone doesn't. That makes you tough to suggest for.
(But most people hate Alexander.)
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Maybe not A+, more like B+. But definitely better than The Pegasus and other episodes.
I'm not exactly why people dislike Alexander so much.
I'll watch the rest of the season at a later date. I'm sick to death of TNG.
I'm not exactly why people dislike Alexander so much.
I'll watch the rest of the season at a later date. I'm sick to death of TNG.
He tends to be a cliche and a plot device more than a character. And the kid who plays him isn't a very good actor. Most of what makes "Firstborn" work to the extent it does is the actor who plays adult Alexander, James Sloyan.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Eh, he rarely shows up in TNG for him to even be a plot device. And he's a kid played by a child actor. He makes the right faces and says his lines, I'm not sure what anyone is expecting.
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