It's almost like there has been an awakening.
Why does a Jedi learning the force faster than the next Jedi affect suspension of belief in a galaxy filled with magic and monsters?
Are people just writing their own narrative in their head?
Rey as a Mary Sue [STAR WARS: THE FORCE AWAKENS SPOILERS]
- Thread starter Veelk
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It's almost like there has been an awakening.
Why does a Jedi learning the force faster than the next Jedi affect suspension of belief in a galaxy filled with magic and monsters?
Are people just writing their own narrative in their head?
excelsiorlef
Member
Right it has nothing to do with gender except you believe everything that is wrong with her was a result of the writers wanting to pander to women.
Or Rey could have faced Kylo back at Maz's place, backed up by his parents and the resistance.
Or what if some Ewoks flew in with the Emperor's ship from ROTJ and unloaded wooden death on the First Order!
All we have to go on is what happened in the movie.
PairOfFilthySocks
Member
Looks like the discussion is just going to continue to come back to sexism. Seems I'm sexist for not liking how the female hero is dehumanized by ridding her of flaws.
Fuck this bollocks, I'm out.
Fuck this bollocks, I'm out.
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
I think it's more a case of Luke is established as being a good pilot, it is subtlety reinforced off an on during movie so you can suspend your disbelief a bit. He isn't really shown as being a super dog-fighting ace either, he basically flew in a straight line during a suicide trench run and just happened not to get blown up.
entremet
Member
But you want the audience to do that work.
It doesn't work that way. The burden is on the storyteller, not the audience.
The issue is not that Rey is capable. It's that it's poorly shown why she is so capable.
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
Ridding her of flaws, right...okay. She is flawless and perfect, clearly we watched different movies.
Her flaws have been pointed out several times. You choose to ignore them.
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
And she has a journey and a struggle.
She's lost her family. She's homeless. She's gone from a scavenger on some backwater planet to being a part of a massive rebellion to keep power out of the hands of the First Order.
She's suddenly become aware that she's Force sensitive, but as Ren says when they're fighting, she needs training. She's obviously extremely powerful in the Force, but needs to focus that power. Think Jean Grey from the X-Men universe (if I may dive even deeper into the nerd-chasm).
There's a journey afoot, and people want to talk shit about it because they haven't been spoon-fed a complete arc after part one of a three part story.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
Expert using the blaster.
Expert using a grapple hook.
Blocks blaster fire blind.
ColdDeckEd
Member
Its not like she was doing that at the very start of the movie, the force literally awakens in her at maz's after she finds the lightsaber. Anyways I think it will be shown it she was exposed to some training before she was left on jakku. I think jj must have felt the need to leave alot of questions to generate hype for episode viii.
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
1) Biggs is Luke's friend. He's paying a compliment. Unless Biggs has actually seen every bush pilot in the outer territories fly to make a comparison, he's just blowing smoke.
2) Going from being the best bush pilot to suddenly piloting an X-Wing and making an impossible shot on the first try is like being the best unicyclist who has never driven a car one day and going on to win the Daytona 500 the next.
It seems that some people would prefer that, while Rey and Finn are being chased down by TIE fighters that are strafing everyone and blowing the fuck out of people left and right, that Rey pull to a stop just so she can whip out a holoslate and show Finn her logged flight hours and what spacecraft she's qualified for.
Jesus, it's almost as if some people prefer the prequels style of exposition.
Jesus, it's almost as if some people prefer the prequels style of exposition.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
That can pretty much only explain why Luke can take off and land an X-Wing without crashing. Engaging enemy fighters and surviving a military engagement is something completely different.
I'm kind of surprised at the amount of people that hoard some disdain towards Rey as a character, even if it isn't necessarily the majority. She was what, in my opinion, held the movie together and truly made the movie "feel" like a Star Wars movie.
The original Star Wars, especially Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back had a very specific, serious, heavy feel. There were light hearted moments to help break this up, especially driven by C3PO and R2D2, but throughout all the films there was a sense of longing, loss, melancholy and even desperation that seemed to drive the story forward. Because of this, Star Wars is real, gritty, and often not pretty: Lukes aunt and uncle slaughtered, Alderaan destroyed in front of a Princess Leias eyes, Ben struck down by Vader, Han leaving with his reward, R2D2 shot as he sat in the X-Wing. These were very sad events, and we cared deeply about each of them. Not until the end when the victory was had and the well-deserved medals were handed out did we really celebrate.
Rey had the true feel of a Star Wars character: Alone, sad, abandoned, but also tough, practical, and extremely real. Her character went somewhere. She grew, discovering her power and responded to a calling that she really didnt want. So in the end it wasnt joy you saw in her face, it was duty.
To all those saying that her discovery of the force largely on her own, without training, was Mary-Sue-like: I think you are all somewhat missing the point. Part of what made Star Wars so captivating and powerful to so many people in the first place was this idea that there is a special power inside of people that is able to make someone ordinary and typically powerless (in the movie, Luke) into someone who is able to play a pivotal role in the world. The generation of kids moved so much by Star Wars saw themselves in Luke, a character whose dreams were bigger than his circumstances. With the force, though, he was able to lift himself from ordinary to heroic. And they were inspired by that.
J.J. Abrams may not have made a perfect movie, but he sure did nail that aspect in Rey. She's what made this movie work for me, and she's also why I'm so excited to see what comes next in the movies to come.
The original Star Wars, especially Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back had a very specific, serious, heavy feel. There were light hearted moments to help break this up, especially driven by C3PO and R2D2, but throughout all the films there was a sense of longing, loss, melancholy and even desperation that seemed to drive the story forward. Because of this, Star Wars is real, gritty, and often not pretty: Lukes aunt and uncle slaughtered, Alderaan destroyed in front of a Princess Leias eyes, Ben struck down by Vader, Han leaving with his reward, R2D2 shot as he sat in the X-Wing. These were very sad events, and we cared deeply about each of them. Not until the end when the victory was had and the well-deserved medals were handed out did we really celebrate.
Rey had the true feel of a Star Wars character: Alone, sad, abandoned, but also tough, practical, and extremely real. Her character went somewhere. She grew, discovering her power and responded to a calling that she really didnt want. So in the end it wasnt joy you saw in her face, it was duty.
To all those saying that her discovery of the force largely on her own, without training, was Mary-Sue-like: I think you are all somewhat missing the point. Part of what made Star Wars so captivating and powerful to so many people in the first place was this idea that there is a special power inside of people that is able to make someone ordinary and typically powerless (in the movie, Luke) into someone who is able to play a pivotal role in the world. The generation of kids moved so much by Star Wars saw themselves in Luke, a character whose dreams were bigger than his circumstances. With the force, though, he was able to lift himself from ordinary to heroic. And they were inspired by that.
J.J. Abrams may not have made a perfect movie, but he sure did nail that aspect in Rey. She's what made this movie work for me, and she's also why I'm so excited to see what comes next in the movies to come.
- Any major character is good with blaster.
- Just the generic utility of the device rather than any notable skill of it.
- Training mode.
entremet
Member
I don't think people are shitting on it.
People are critiquing what it's in front of them. We can't judge the other movies because we haven't seen them.
The main problem is that she taps into the force when the plot needs her too. It wouldn't be an issue if she had knowledge of the force prior to the events in the movie. Fact is she doesn't, she makes that clear when talking with Han on the Falcon. She was a scavenger on Jakku with no knowledge of about any of the events in the original trilogy. The problem is not about her having an awakening, it is about how poorly the movie shows that.
The Elite
BOSS
The entire point is that in canon he was able to do these things with no training whatsoever. He was building droids, driving pods and flying space ships at an incredible young age. As silly as it looked at the time it actually explains why Rey's abilities come so naturally in TFA.
Without training The Force really does enhance people's abilities without any training whatsoever.
Training mode. Like just anyone would be able to do that shit blindfolded.
The movie goes out of it's way to make it clear she does know about the Jedi, she just thought it was a myth.
entremet
Member
Yep. That's the main issue.
It's not that she's "OP". I'm fine with capable characters. Is that the movie does a poor job at showing the progression, if any.
Proof? Biggs is far more likely to be able to make that distinction. There's even the deleted scene where Biggs meets Luke is Mos Eisley, so clearly he hasn't been gala cantina around with the rebels that long.
Once more, proof. We have several instances of Luke being called an accomplished pilot, or being more than confident in his skills.
This is not the same as "lol never piloted a ship ever".
The Force is not some DnD spell book that you must study. You don't need to grind so many experience points to unlock the Jedi Mind trick. That's not how it works.
This is slightly off topic, but there's this part in Bojack Horseman TV show where he is holding the script for his next show, and it has one of those quick take gags.
If we replace the joke with Rey's force abilities, this is basically how the conversation has been going on for a while. Why can Rey do this? Because of these reasons. Oh, those don't matter, but still, how can Rey do this stuff. And so on.
If we replace the joke with Rey's force abilities, this is basically how the conversation has been going on for a while. Why can Rey do this? Because of these reasons. Oh, those don't matter, but still, how can Rey do this stuff. And so on.
So Reys abilities are a quick cut gag?
The explanation for her abilities is implicit, which can make the depiction more naturalistic than an expository scene of "and this is why you can do this", but people seem to be having difficulty accepting that.
I call extreme bullshit on the "poor job at showing progression" narrative.
Their is no set guideline in this universe showing how quickly different Jedi gain skill and which ones are top tier and which ones are shit tier.
Anakin was doing Jedi things as a kid with no training. Luke was skilled in some ways, but really had no idea about his potential. Plenty of other Jedi are shown to be pretty easy to defeat.
The progression that you guys are arguing for is not one set in stone. This is the story they are telling with her.
Their is no set guideline in this universe showing how quickly different Jedi gain skill and which ones are top tier and which ones are shit tier.
Anakin was doing Jedi things as a kid with no training. Luke was skilled in some ways, but really had no idea about his potential. Plenty of other Jedi are shown to be pretty easy to defeat.
The progression that you guys are arguing for is not one set in stone. This is the story they are telling with her.
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
Even in fictional universes filled with space magic there has to be vague rules, in the OT "The Force" isn't an automatic win button, it's more like a martial art that takes time to master, within the confines of this movie, Rey stretchs the believability of what someone should be able to do for some people.
The rules of the force are a bit vague, so there is going to be some subjective interpretation... for some it works, for others it pushes it. Personally, I'm OK with most of the things she does, it's just more the combination of everything together in one movie is a bit much, but I'm open to it being explained away in the next movie.
In the end, Rey is still a million times more palatable than prequel Anakin, who is a much better candidate for being a Mary Sue.
ColdDeckEd
Member
The problem is definately on the movie/script but as others have said it seems like jj opted not to spell everything out like the pt and leave some important details to our imagination.
I think you are wrong about her not knowing anything about the events of the ot. Shes heard stories but didnt know they were true till she met han.
The Librarian
Banned
She has flaws; you're just electing to ignore them for some reason. Did you watch the film?
She knows about the Jedi and Han and the rebellion.
People need to keep in mind that this is a series where a woman hides plans for a space station from her evil father by sending them to her brother, all by accident and without knowing they're related to each other. The Force guides everything in the Star Wars universe.
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
There was one line by Luke and his pal about how good a pilot he was; there was one line from Rey explaining she was a pilot.
As a surrogate for the audience, Luke didn't know what the Force was, so he had it quickly explained to him. Then he could suddenly block lasers, fly warplanes, and destroy moon-sized machines of war. Rey had heard of the Force before, so she didn't need it explained to her before she was able to block Ren's mind probe, convince a Storm Trooper to set her free, and Force Grab a lightsaber.
Both are equally stupidly powerful because their movies needed them to be, yet Luke gets hero worship and Rey gets whining. I have no idea Y (get it? It's because she doesn't have a Y chromosome. I'm clever).
Im gunna say this is actually very likely
excelsiorlef
Member
Rey hasn't learned the force at all at this point though as far as we see, which is the problem.
It's also fairly well-established that to use the force with any kind of effectiveness, you need to be trained or learn it. Rey has done neither of those things, she just sort of does it, and does it with equal or more effectiveness than Kylo, who has had training, quite extensively it seems, even if it is still 'incomplete'. There's an inconsistency with in the "rules" of the universe here.
She was a great character in most aspects I thought that I can't wait to see more of, and Daisy Ridley was great, but her fairly advanced abilities with the force are another hand-waived plot contrivance, of which there are several in this film.
Just because the movie was good or great, and the character is good or great doesn't mean that certain things can't be critiqued or pointed out.
She was a bit too awesome without much in the way of flaws, but so were Luke and Baby Anakin. It's less on her and more the nature of star wars. Also, not much was earned by many of the characters because the movie was devoted to setting up the next film and also paying reference to the original trilogy.
At least she wasn't whiny and emo like Anakin was! Daisy made the role enjoyable.
At least she wasn't whiny and emo like Anakin was! Daisy made the role enjoyable.
Some of this just seems like people really don't want to accept the fact that in general, the force is a very stupid and incredibly lazy part of the Star Wars universe. It can do whatever it wants and can be used to explain just about anything, because it's the force. It has no limitations, there really aren't set properties or principles to it, it's just whatever it needs to be to move the story forward. If the force is needed to awaken hidden abilities in Rey than so be it, but that has absolutely no bearing on the character herself.
I am heading out for Christmas at the in laws. I hope everyone has a great holiday and doesn't get too wrapped up in arguing over Star Wars (this goes for me also)!
We have a new movie, and a new trilogy. I couldn't be more excited and also love that Rey is inspiring a new generation of Star Wars fans!
We have a new movie, and a new trilogy. I couldn't be more excited and also love that Rey is inspiring a new generation of Star Wars fans!
It's almost as if there's a mystery surrounding her origins.
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
We have Luke calling himself a pilot and his buddy calling him a pilot. Rey has no buddies, so she calls herself a pilot.
His going from bumfuck pilot shooting rats to god-tier pilot because ghosts helped him after a couple minutes of training is believable. Her going from pilot of unknown skill to god-tier pilot because of unknown level of Force training/power (because it's part one of a trilogy where shit will likely be explained) isn't acceptable, and is an affront to all things Star Wars.
Y?
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
So if were comparing:
Luke: Middle class upbringing. No physical conditioning or training of any kind. Expert at ship combat and piloting.
Perfect:
- Expert at blaster fire.
- Expert at dog fighting and piloting.
- Expertly uses grapple hook.
- Immediately proficient with lightsaber fighting techniques.
- Makes impossible shot with reliance on force.
Flawed:
- Tuskan Raiders knock him out.
- People don't take him seriously.
Rey: Life of poverty. Has skills in combat and survival which includes scavenging and an understanding of ship mechanics.
Perfect:
- Almost destroys the Millenium Falcon but then proceeds to drive it expertly enough to take out two tie fighters. Can't stop getting hijacked by Han.
- Uses force mind control.
- Takes out two storm troopers shows proficient ability with the blaster.
- Bests Kylo Ren in lightsaber duel by relentlessly attacking when he is both exhausted from the fight and from injuries.
Flawed:
- Releases Monsters in Hans ship putting everyones life in danger especially Finns.
- Rendered helpless against Kylo Ren and knocked out.
- Knocked out again against Kylo Ren in final battle.
- Flees while engaging Kylo Ren to ward off blows.
Seems pretty even to me. Whats your issue again?
This again makes no sense to me.
Your saying Rey is a god level pilot because she didn't destroy the Millenium Falcon and was able to put Finn(A trained stormtrooper) into combat range of two Tie Fighters.
That makes here a god level pilot?
Meanwhile Luke with experience shooting rodents of unusual size become a god tier pilot just by tapping into the force and he is amongst the skill of fighters like Poe.
This is a even comparison to you?
Say what? She uses the force multiple times in this movie. Ok I am out for real. I agree she is a great character and yes you can critique whatever you want.
But what is the significance of this training with Kenobi, out of danger? All it shows is he is a force sensitive student.
That Millenium Falcon maneuver was not a "civilian thing" (whatever that means), like at all. It was also a massive feat far above Luke's own piloting in ANH.
The implication of this ghostly voice is important. It clearly spells out that the shot was guided by a powerful force outside of him. Else it is considered personal proficiency which is at the heart of this topic about hypercompetent Rey
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
Part of the issue is the force has been handled a million different ways at this point, there is OT force vagueness, Prequel force vagueness, Expanded Universe force vagueness, etc etc.
Depending on what you've watched or read, I can see why some folks are OK with Rey's abilities, and some folks aren't.
entremet
Member
Oh I'm aware of that and explained such in my previous post. However, people can only assess what they've seen.
We have no idea what's in store for episode 8 or 9.
The tenor of this discussion will obviously evolve in time.
BearFlexington
Member
Rey has one major flaw: naiveté.
It' no surprise to me that people would seek to marginalize her character because frankly, a courageous heroine
who isn't boy-crazy or some kind of damsel is relatively unpaved territory in Hollywood.
At worst her character was undeveloped, at best, an awesome female protagonist that even little boys growing up could shamelessly pretend to be on the playground.
It' no surprise to me that people would seek to marginalize her character because frankly, a courageous heroine
Jedi
At worst her character was undeveloped, at best, an awesome female protagonist that even little boys growing up could shamelessly pretend to be on the playground.
I think it's possible to say that Rey is a good character while also criticizing the writing in the movie. I often feel the same about the first star wars.
The movie lacked tension in other parts not involving Rey, so it's no surprise that her character would get caught up in that too.
The movie lacked tension in other parts not involving Rey, so it's no surprise that her character would get caught up in that too.
Say what? She uses the force multiple times in this movie. Ok I am out for real. I agree she is a great character and yes you can critique whatever you want.
She didn't learn it I meant though- as in she does a lot of advanced things with it very quickly without being taught, unless that's shown in a flashback. Yes Luke did the trench run, but he didn't manipulate objects or people, or show any saber skill until at least the second film after training with Yoda.
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