Charles Foster Kane
Rosebud
Honestly, I think Driver looked great without the mask on. He's got something.
Plus, he's a very good actor.
Plus, he's a very good actor.
[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #2) - One Thumb Up
- Thread starter Bobby Roberts
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The internet, including GAF, have a really distorted perception of what aging does to the body's mad how one should look at certain ages. It drives me nuts whenever it comes up, but it's always notably worse with women celebrities because people are cruel and unrealistic about it.
And Driver is what I would call unconventionally attractive for a celebrity- he's a really good looking guy, but not in the "supermodel" sense that Hollywood usually likes. He looks like an attractive, "regular guy", for lack of a better phrase, and it makes him unique.
He's also a great actor that killed the performance too- unmasked, I found him still intimidating, which constrasted well with his boyish looks. Thought Kylo was easily the best part of the film.
Phasma has an amazing look, but I was really bummed she did nothing at all. Next time hopefully.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Are you going to claim it's not common stance on GAF? I'm not going to go digging through everyone's post histories for you.
Personally, I've consistently defended rehashes, but my main problems with TFA are lack of character motivation and that pile of massive coincidences.
DragonSworne
Banned
OricWindstar
Member
Also, I've seen the movie three times and not once have I heard anyone laugh at anything related to Kylo's appearance or his "whiny" faces during the Han scene. Can't help but feel some people are over exaggerating the audience's reaction to his surprising look.
kame-sennin
Member
Are they? I'm honestly asking. I didn't think it was a big deal to say that a white, male, soon-to-be-millionaire actor was really not good looking. I mean, Paul Giamatti and Steve Buscheme are kind of famous for being ugly. They're both amazing actors, and I love their work, but they don't often get leading man roles.
When I prefaced my comment by saying I was being shallow, what I should have said was, 'I'm being as shallow as Hollywood casting usually is'. Which lead to my question - how did that happen? Hollywood almost never casts average looking people in leading roles, let alone a guy with a giant nose, crooked face, dumbo ears, and teeth that clash harder then the lightsabers in this movie.
Now, I'm sure a lot of the people who are angry with me think Hollywood should change this practice and start representing what the average person really looks like. I actually agree. But I don't think that's what happened here. I don't think Disney is making a political statement. I'm curious as to why a major corporation would make such a huge diversion from their normal practices.
I also, again, never really thought it was a big deal to call a man ugly. We just don't face the same pressures to be beautiful.
This is what I'm saying. Is this a faux pas? Film is an image based medium. Hollywood has supercharged that. Is this something we're not allowed to observe out loud?
While I agree with all that, I don't enjoy trolling. I gave my honest opinion about the guy's looks and I thought it was strange that he got cast. Maybe people think I'm angry that he's in the movie. I'm not. I like his performance and I even think his hair is kind of dreamy. But I think his face looks unusual and I honestly didn't think it was terrible to point that out.
LordOfChaos
Member
To me that was purely "I can feel your heart isn't into killing people". He detected the weakness/mercy.
Not saying Finn can't be force sensitive, and I like JJs paragraph above about everyone having a link to it, but that scene I thought was just to get Finn crapping his pants for being found out.
OricWindstar
Member
Considering how many Stormtroopers Finn went on to kill, I think he'd be okay with it.
Charles Foster Kane
Rosebud
I don't think they were buddies.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I think I know what your New Years Resolution for 2016 should be then.
A New Hope features an intergalactic imperial force scouring a desert planet for a droid housing data of narrative importance, who meets a young prophecy-esque protagonist with unwoken potential who has ambitions lying outside of their home - but is anchored to the planet for familial reasons. The protagonist, alongside friends and droids they meet on the way, must find and join forces with a resistance group to take on and destroy a destructive planetary weapon employed by an evil empire.
The Force Awakens is about?
That's how I interpreted it. I don't think Finn needs to be force sensitive- he's pretty badass in his own way without it, which I like more.
I did have a gripe with Finn having realizaions about being a trooper after what I understood to be his first mission ever.
To elaborate: My issue with it is that they clearly don't want him to seem like a too much of a "bad guy"- I mean he was "bad guy lite" by virtue of being a First Order trooper, but he didn't have blood on his hands. Being a killer Stormtrooper who maybe bought the First Order schtick and maybe seeing himself as a hero before realizing he's a villain and seeking redemption would've been more interesting. Just felt too safe to say "He is a Stormtrooper seeking redemption" when he didn't actually kill anyone before.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I know what it features. You asked, I answered. I'm gonna assume you read it, because you quoted it.
The whole point of my initial response to you was to point out that basic similarities in the heroes journey are going to be part of the formula, especially in the 7th chapter of a 40 year old film series specfically dealing with a single family of space wizards, based strongly on the monomyth. I then continued to point out how it does differ, specifically in regards to the aspects of the series it's looking to and how it repurposes elements of what came before (like almost every sequel in the history of film does), as a means to counter your assertion it was a "Beat-by-beat" remake of Star Wars, which I even allowed was an understandable, but surface, read of the film, aided by the film's execution stopping itself from reaching the emotional depths it obviously wants to go.
I'm unsure what you're trying to do by simply repeating the thing i'd already understood you were trying to say when I responded the first time.
Plenty of similar broadstrokes, but still very different when you get into the meat of it. Rey is the Luke analogue, but a pretty different character in execution; Kylo Ren is the Vader analogue, but a pretty different character in execution; and Finn has no real parallel to ANH.
PushTheButtonMax
Banned
Source? Can't find anything.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
A making of book is on the way, but Abrams/Kennedy aren't writing it. I believe its Mark Cotta Vaz. I also think it's scheduled for later than spring, although the blu-ray itself is supposed to drop in April, and that will hopefully have a Charlie De Lauzirika documentary on it, since they hired him to work on that Disneyland thing.
Ether_Snake
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Yeah he runs away from killing the villagers only to kill a bunch of Storm Troopers (and help blow up a planet). I thought he might have been a spy at the start of the movie, refusing to kill his own in the village. Maz says he is someone trying to run away. If he was just scared of dying in that fight it would explain why he panicked.
Weird character really.
OricWindstar
Member
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Finn is like the Special Edition of ANH Han.
Monomyth is a skeleton narrative template. You can adhere to it without rehashing entire characters, origins, scenarios, settings, etc. Which is what The Force Awakens does with respect to A New Hope. I don't understand how being from the same franchise and dealing with a bloodline is legitimate excuse for what's effectively a remake/reboot hybrid masked as a sequel.
People are actually shitting on Adam Driver's looks? Wow.
I think he has an interesting face, with a hint of Ford's nose. Acting wise, he was one of the best performances in the movie. People seem to be unable to break themselves of the mentality that this is a beat for beat retread of the original trilogy. People are so quick to point out the similarities, nobody seems to want to point out what TFA is doing differently. There is as much there that isn't just A New Hope reimagined, as there are parallels to it.
One of the key differences is in Kylo Ren himself. People seemed to think he was going to be Vader 2.0, to Rey's Luke 2.0, but neither characters are simply reskins of Vader and Luke. Kylo is interesting, precisely because when he is in character (masked and intimidating Kylo Ren), he is a force to be feared. He commands fear and reverence in everyone but Hux, who knows that underneath that mask, Kylo is just Ben Solo, a wannabe Vader. I love the scene after the Rey interrogation, where Ben, without his mask, is talking to Snoke and Hux enters the room. Ben turns to see Hux coming, then quickly turns his face away, as if he doesn't want Hux to see him without his mask. He then keeps his gaze face forward for the rest of the scene, not looking in Hux's direction while he's next to him.
Kylo isn't just an attempt to make a cool, iconic villain like Vader, because Abram's realized that there was no way they'd be able to match such an iconic character. So they went in a different direction. They clearly decided: "We can't duplicate Darth Vader, so why bother?" Ben's entire arc is going to be exploring that realization that you can't replicate the Dark Lord of the Sith. They wove the real world debate about Darth Vader into the movie itself. And as a result, have created an antagonist that is truly compelling.
Anyone thinking that Kylo Ren is going to be the same character in episodes 8 and 9 that he is in episode 7 doesn't understand how storytelling works. We don't get many villains across trilogies. Vader was one of the few. Ben is going to grow into a monster over the course of these movies, a complete counter to Rey, who is going to be our hero. Adam Driver looks to have the acting chops to pull off Ben's transformation into Kylo Ren.
Our audience expectations were turned on their head with Kylo, as we've only seen him looking badass and intimidating, which is the whole point of the Kylo Ren persona for Ben. He desperately wants to be that. And I think he'll get there. He is one of the most interesting antagonists we've had in the Star Wars films so far. I guarantee we're going to learn more about his betrayal of his uncle as he moves further away from the light in episodes 8 and 9. He's great, and Driver is great. I never had a problem with his unconventional Hollywood pretty boy looks.
I think he has an interesting face, with a hint of Ford's nose. Acting wise, he was one of the best performances in the movie. People seem to be unable to break themselves of the mentality that this is a beat for beat retread of the original trilogy. People are so quick to point out the similarities, nobody seems to want to point out what TFA is doing differently. There is as much there that isn't just A New Hope reimagined, as there are parallels to it.
One of the key differences is in Kylo Ren himself. People seemed to think he was going to be Vader 2.0, to Rey's Luke 2.0, but neither characters are simply reskins of Vader and Luke. Kylo is interesting, precisely because when he is in character (masked and intimidating Kylo Ren), he is a force to be feared. He commands fear and reverence in everyone but Hux, who knows that underneath that mask, Kylo is just Ben Solo, a wannabe Vader. I love the scene after the Rey interrogation, where Ben, without his mask, is talking to Snoke and Hux enters the room. Ben turns to see Hux coming, then quickly turns his face away, as if he doesn't want Hux to see him without his mask. He then keeps his gaze face forward for the rest of the scene, not looking in Hux's direction while he's next to him.
Kylo isn't just an attempt to make a cool, iconic villain like Vader, because Abram's realized that there was no way they'd be able to match such an iconic character. So they went in a different direction. They clearly decided: "We can't duplicate Darth Vader, so why bother?" Ben's entire arc is going to be exploring that realization that you can't replicate the Dark Lord of the Sith. They wove the real world debate about Darth Vader into the movie itself. And as a result, have created an antagonist that is truly compelling.
Anyone thinking that Kylo Ren is going to be the same character in episodes 8 and 9 that he is in episode 7 doesn't understand how storytelling works. We don't get many villains across trilogies. Vader was one of the few. Ben is going to grow into a monster over the course of these movies, a complete counter to Rey, who is going to be our hero. Adam Driver looks to have the acting chops to pull off Ben's transformation into Kylo Ren.
Our audience expectations were turned on their head with Kylo, as we've only seen him looking badass and intimidating, which is the whole point of the Kylo Ren persona for Ben. He desperately wants to be that. And I think he'll get there. He is one of the most interesting antagonists we've had in the Star Wars films so far. I guarantee we're going to learn more about his betrayal of his uncle as he moves further away from the light in episodes 8 and 9. He's great, and Driver is great. I never had a problem with his unconventional Hollywood pretty boy looks.
Yeah, what's up with him being cool with killing space Nazis in battle but not innocent villagers in cold blood? Surely they are exactly the same.
PushTheButtonMax
Banned
Thanks Bobby. With that info I found this wiki page. The Amazon link shows a release date of October 25th.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Making_of_Star_Wars:_The_Force_Awakens
And considering they're stolen from their families at a young age and conditioned, he's basically mowing down friends he grew up with...
D
Deleted member 30609
Unconfirmed Member
It's hilarious, because I'm pretty sure Adam Driver used to be or actually is currently a model. He was on a great big poster above a shopping centre I used to work at a couple years back.
Ether_Snake
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Any Storm Trooper he kills could be the same as himself or the one that died in his arms. Your analogy is dumb.
You could be completely right, but if a redemption is in the cards for Ren, then there is a foundation for his innate goodness and desire to be good in TFA. It's difficult to accept a definitive reason that they won't now considering in the original trilogy Luke sensed innate goodness in Vader despite everything he had done. Like her brother's, Leia's intuition could be proven to have been right alll along about her son. Or it won't.
I personally don't think it will. But I do think it's more likely than Ren becoming the big bad.
I don't doubt Ren will be a monster akin to Vader. I just don't think he is going to be the real big bad, i.e. the guy with the plan.
Palpatine was the guy with the plan. Now it's Snoke, and if he bites it, I think whoever fills that position next isn't going to be Ren because he doesn't fit that mold. Benicio Del Toro strikes me as the type of actor that can fill that role.
Ren is too self-centred for me to see him fulfilling that role, there is little if anything to suggest he gives a damn about becoming Emperor or Supreme Leader - though perhaps that's what he meant with finishing what Vader started.
Whatever it is he might mean by that, Ren is poised to be the next Vader, and Vader answered to the Emperor the way Ren now answers to Snoke and I see Ren still answering to someone in IX even if I don't think that someone will be Snoke and albeit with less subservience.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
No, man. Star Wars similarities are only a part of it. It's not just Star Wars. If you're as well-versed with the Original Trilogy as you seem to be, it shouldn't be too hard to easily pick out, even on first viewing, the (plentiful) elements of Empire and Jedi also incorporated and reinterpreted, the variations in characterization that make the term "rehash" way harder to use, so on and so forth.
A new coat of paint is partially the appeal of continuing a story to its seventh chapter. If you wanted something "new" you wouldn't still BE here. You'd be watching SOMETHING NEW. What I'm arguing is that your reduction of the film's everything to simply the single movie from 1977 is too much, and more than a little unfair. It's a superficial reading of a film that isn't even anywhere near that deep in the first place.
You keep using "legitimate excuse" as if I'm trying to excuse anything. There's nothing to excuse. I'm trying to explain to you why your superficial dismissal of elements that are more than a little obvious doesn't work very well.
I think that's super-limiting, but it's certainly in keeping with your notions of what his character in this movie (and the bad guys in general) should be, despite the film pretty loudly telling you what he is.
LookAtMeGo
Member
Oh man, He's worse than Nathan Drake.
Ether_Snake
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Kylo won't go good except maybe in his last words as he dies. The narrative structure around him in tfa pretty much spells it out.
Fuck that's too long a wait. D:
The man defected out of the First Order because he valued his convictions more than standing along his fellow soldiers. It was clear he first wanted to cut and run, but his character growth is learning to take a stand alongside the resistance.
In part finding new companions and grasping that his old friends continue to fight for the First Order. He's a soldier, and he's shown us he knows where to put his heart and when to pull a trigger.
In part finding new companions and grasping that his old friends continue to fight for the First Order. He's a soldier, and he's shown us he knows where to put his heart and when to pull a trigger.
ultracal31
You don't get to bring friends.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
That still counts and that's what I think will happen. When people say he will have a redemption I don't think anyone is expecting him to be a good guy for the whole duration of an episode.
This...actually makes a lot of sense as a descriptor.
"He was bad, but not too bad."
I don't know if I really see Stormtroopers being conditioned to be friends with one another, or how likely it is that you'd be stationed with the same people you grew up and trained with anyway.
In either case, all the other troopers at Jakku pulled the trigger when he didn't. That's the line they cross that he doesn't, and what prompts him to leave. He's not then going to not kill other stormtroopers when his life is in danger, or when other planets are in danger.
If they were the same as Finn, they wouldn't still be stormtroopers, would they?
Bobby Roberts
Banned
If the book is as good as the other making of books by Rinzler we're in for a treat
I haven't found that Cotta Vaz is as good, but that might be a case of Rinzler simply having more access to more archives than Vaz did.
BronsonLee
Member
WHAT'S THIS ABOUT RINZLER
TRON LIVES
TRON LIVES
Bobby Roberts
Banned
The character in TRON was actually named after the guy who wrote the Making of Star Wars books.
Finn probably grew up believing the First Order were the first guys as part of his indoctrination. That they were the instrument of order necessary to a peaceful and just galaxy.
His first sortie dispelled any notion of validity to that. The others were just too indoctrinated to see it, so rather than fight for the First Order he defected.
I don't think he had any intention of becoming a hero of the Resistance. He tells Rey he isn't when he confesses to her.
In the leaving the Order Finn became a man without a country and nothing to fight for.
By the third act we know he'll fight for people he'll cares about. For now it's short list, but I think by the end of VIII he'll be fighting for the sake of the Light Side. Be it as a Jedi or a Resistance fighter.
His first sortie dispelled any notion of validity to that. The others were just too indoctrinated to see it, so rather than fight for the First Order he defected.
I don't think he had any intention of becoming a hero of the Resistance. He tells Rey he isn't when he confesses to her.
In the leaving the Order Finn became a man without a country and nothing to fight for.
By the third act we know he'll fight for people he'll cares about. For now it's short list, but I think by the end of VIII he'll be fighting for the sake of the Light Side. Be it as a Jedi or a Resistance fighter.
I'm just going to agree to disagree, because we're not going to get anywhere with this. I'll never agree with the notion that retreading to such an extent that The Force Awakens does is a natural progression for a long standing narrative to take, and that wanting distinct/standalone narrative advancement instead of some half-baked history repeats itself theme is somehow off base. The idea that someone wouldn't stick with something long term if it weren't more of the same is a really odd position to take, especially to such an extreme.
And I never said it doesn't incorporate aspects of the rest of the franchise. The film lifts some stuff from the prequels as well, but it's largest inspiration is undeniably A New Hope - and it's done so to an almost inter-franchise plagiarizing extent.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Good idea!
http://imgur.com/9OsDr2O
My mistake. They didn't write the book, they just wrote the forwards.
Source is the insert of the art of Star Wars The Force Awakens book.
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