[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #2) - One Thumb Up

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GhaleonEB said:
It's one point on a long list of reasons why the fight plays out the way it does. But it matters in large part because TFA goes to pains to point it out, and emphasize the fact that Kylo is not trained, and then demonstrates that through his actions. I think it matters in particular if you expand the idea of 'training' to include more than just sword fighting. In the film Snoke refers to Kylo facing Han as his greatest "test", and Kylo says "by the grace of your training" he'll succeed. There's more to his training than just swinging a lightsaber.

Kylo's cocky fight with Finn, leading to him getting injured before he smacks Finn down hard, is an illustration of this. And the way he 1) gives Rey an opening and 2) gets overwhelmed when she focuses on the Force are also mistakes of one not fully prepared for that kind of a conflict.

He was a much better swordsman than Rey, but he lost for other reasons. (The rematch is going to be amazeballs.)
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It's funny ya know I think if we had to rreally agure that there was a a huge out of character moment for Ren it wasn't losing the fight to Rey it was stopping that blaster bolt because everything else in that movie is set up to depict Ren as not Darth Vader, as a kid who still has a ton to learn.

Now I don't really care because I see the freezing of the bolt as evidence that he's got amazing raw force skills and weak control and immaturity.

But frankly freezing that bolt is closer to out of character than losing a fight whilst injured, distracted, distraught, without a desire to kill and only losing (after dominating most of it) because Rey connected with the force and allowed it to guide her to hit a few hits that disarmed Ren

Ren's arc is all about not being fully ready to be a major evil player. I mean Hux is shown to be a smarter tactician and a much more respected leader than Ren is and that dude is the type of guy that Vader would have force choked in ANH
 
HawksWinStanley said:
Just saw it for the first time tonight. Overall I was impressed that they were able to pull it off. Good flick.

I really like what they're doing with Ren's character. The dude is clearly flawed and shows emotion without coming across as pathetic like Anakin.

The only thing that made me roll my eyes was how Rey was able to outduel Ren out of nowhere. Her ability to match him force for force is one thing but being able to whip out these saber skills without any indication of any prior training was super lame. I know the dude was hurt but she was able to pull off some impressive moves for someone who has never handled a light saber before and I hate when movies do that.

It should've been impressive enough that she could fend him off til the ground split but actually besting him and having him at her mercy was lame. Everybody seems to really like her character but I was bored by her. Finn and Kylo stole the show for me. Very believable and interesting characters.

Great performances all around too.
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You seen her kick ass on Jakku with her staff...she's clearly able to defend herself through history alone and if she is good with her staff weapon, a sword would come natural anyway.
 
Just got back from my third showing. It's so damn good. The biggest fault of the film is its laser focus on developing the new characters, primarily to the detriment of world building and bringing context to some of the larger events that happen. (i.e. an entire system being destroyed) The movie feels 20 minutes short... Tell us more about the Republic, about Star Killer base, about the larger role of the Resistance... Al of these things would have added a little more weight to the events taking place in the movie. That being said, the investment made in Rey, Finn, their relationship and growth makes up for most of the lack of world building IMO, and I expect we get a larger scope/context in the next film.

Third favorite SW film and I am so pumped for the next one. I feel very attached to these new characters and can't wait to see what happens next.
 
Saw it in an attempt to get out ahead of more spoilers.

Thanks to GAF, I was waiting for a thumb to be severed and some mention of a mysterious "Mary Sue," among other hazy hearsay.

Hope Luke takes his saber back and they bring back the double-ended saber for Rey as the final loot and evolution of her starter staff. Better for poking, too. Hell, keep building her up as the ultimate mechanic-pilot-swordswoman and turn her dark.
 
RoKKeR said:
Just got back from my third showing. It's so damn good. The biggest fault of the film is its laser focus on developing the new characters, primarily to the detriment of world building and bringing context to some of the larger events that happen. (i.e. an entire system being destroyed) The movie feels 20 minutes short... Tell us more about the Republic, about Star Killer base, about the larger role of the Resistance...All of these things would have added a little more weight to the events taking place in the movie. That being said, the investment made in Rey, Finn, their relationship and growth makes up for most of the lack of world building IMO, and I expect we get a larger scope/context in the next film.
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So much this. I hope we get a director's cut that's like 30 minutes longer with extra backstory that was filmed and cut just to keep it moving.
 
I think the real reason the film rushes from event to event and leaves so many unanswered plot points & backstories is because it's a JJ Abrams film, and the dude is the master of setting up mysteries without any answers. It must have sucked for the writing brain trust at Lucasfilm who had to run around thinking of answers for everything Abrams set up in this film.
 
grandjedi6 said:
I think the real reason the film rushes from event to event and leaves so many unanswered plot points & backstories is because it's a JJ Abrams film, and the dude is the master of setting up mysteries without any answers. It must have sucked for the writing brain trust at Lucasfilm who had to run around thinking of answers for everything Abrams set up in this film.
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Strong word
 
grandjedi6 said:
I think the real reason the film rushes from event to event and leaves so many unanswered plot points & backstories is because it's a JJ Abrams film, and the dude is the master of setting up mysteries without any answers. It must have sucked for the writing brain trust at Lucasfilm who had to run around thinking of answers for everything Abrams set up in this film.
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What makes you say that? Hopefully you don't mean Lost.
 
This The Art of Star Wars: The Force Awakens might just be one of the most aesthetically beautiful books I have ever owned. I've only had it one day and I have probably flipped through it four or five times. The art is so clear and beautiful but there is some much information in all the little dialogue it gives you about the production of the film and the development of the characters.
 
Einchy said:
What makes you say that? Hopefully you don't mean Lost.
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You kidding? Lost is the epitome of "let's make shit up as we go along and never bother caring about how all of this will fit together and take shape down the road, and oh shit, it burns us badly in the end".
 
prag16 said:
You kidding? Lost is the epitome of "let's make shit up as we go along and never bother caring about how all of this will fit together and take shape down the road, and oh shit, it burns us badly in the end".
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JJ Abrams loves when people bitch to him about Lost even though he had nothing to do with the show after the pilot.

So, yeah, I hope he's not criticizing JJ over Lost because that would be silly.

[edit]

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/J.J._Abrams

https://youtu.be/viDu9SLvF_E?t=44s
https://youtu.be/viDu9SLvF_E?t=3m40s
 
prag16 said:
You kidding? Lost is the epitome of "let's make shit up as we go along and never bother caring about how all of this will fit together and take shape down the road, and oh shit, it burns us badly in the end".
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They said they had the whole thing planned out though! lmao
 
Gun Animal said:
Ford has been saying for awhile that the only way he'd want to play Han Solo again is if it was to kill the character off. He's dead, Jim.
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Don't question Disney's money. They were able to keep RDJ on Iron Man until Avengers 3 part 1 and 2, they might get Ford on board for a little while...

Also JJ confirmed on the red carpet that everyone will comeback for Ep VIII, including Ford.
 
XAL said:
Here is a closer look at the ship that leaves her, definitely not the Falcon.

hnZ2rgQ.jpg
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When I was watching this at first I thought the ship looked like Han's new freighter, but I haven't seen anyone else make the same observation so I'm probably completely off.
 
janoDX said:
Don't question Disney's money. They were able to keep RDJ on Iron Man until Avengers 3 part 1 and 2, they might get Ford on board for a little while...

Also JJ confirmed on the red carpet that everyone will comeback for Ep VIII, including Ford.
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Right because JJ was going to admit that Ford was not coming back before the movie came out and thus basically spoiling everyone about Han's death
 
grandjedi6 said:
I think the real reason the film rushes from event to event and leaves so many unanswered plot points & backstories is because it's a JJ Abrams film, and the dude is the master of setting up mysteries without any answers. It must have sucked for the writing brain trust at Lucasfilm who had to run around thinking of answers for everything Abrams set up in this film.
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I think it leaves so much open as it is part 1 of 3. I also don't really think the writing proces of this is comparable to Lost, which as a tv-series is written more open ended from the start (as you don't know how many seasons it will last)

Pretty sure there was a backstory outline before filming startes, as outlines for viii and ix. The flashback seems to confirm the answers are allready decided.

I agree Lost sucked though.
 
Movie felt like fan fiction to me. Same dramatic beats of the OT condensed into a single movie. It felt like every time a plot point would happen, the movie was jabbing me in the chest, winking, and whispering "Hey, remember Star wars?"

It's the death star... but bigger! It's the empire... but bigger! It's the emperor... but bigger!

Oh, and a wussier Vader too.

And Rey is obviously Luke Skywalker's daughter.

Better than the PT, though.
 
RoKKeR said:
Just got back from my third showing. It's so damn good. The biggest fault of the film is its laser focus on developing the new characters, primarily to the detriment of world building and bringing context to some of the larger events that happen. (i.e. an entire system being destroyed) The movie feels 20 minutes short... Tell us more about the Republic, about Star Killer base, about the larger role of the Resistance... Al of these things would have added a little more weight to the events taking place in the movie. That being said, the investment made in Rey, Finn, their relationship and growth makes up for most of the lack of world building IMO, and I expect we get a larger scope/context in the next film.

Third favorite SW film and I am so pumped for the next one. I feel very attached to these new characters and can't wait to see what happens next.
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This was pretty confusing to everyone I saw it with today. I don't think anyone wants prequel-type politics, but it's just really unclear what the balance of galactic power looks like. The Resistance (who are they resisting?) has, like, a couple dozen X-Wings. The Republic appears to exist on paper only and evidently lacks anything with both guns and a hyperdrive. The First Order can build mega- Death Stars, has Star Destroyers, and understands itself to be some kind of insurgency.
 
grandjedi6 said:
I think the real reason the film rushes from event to event and leaves so many unanswered plot points & backstories is because it's a JJ Abrams film, and the dude is the master of setting up mysteries without any answers. It must have sucked for the writing brain trust at Lucasfilm who had to run around thinking of answers for everything Abrams set up in this film.
Click to expand...

I really doubt Abrams came up with all the unsolved plot points in the film. There was probably a rough outline for the whole trilogy already in place as he was writing this with Kasdan.
 
Krejlooc said:
Movie felt like fan fiction to me. Same dramatic beats of the OT condensed into a single movie. It felt like every time a plot point would happen, the movie was jabbing me in the chest, winking, and whispering "Hey, remember Star wars?"

It's the death star... but bigger! It's the empire... but bigger! It's the emperor... but bigger!

Oh, and a wussier Vader too.

And Rey is obviously Luke Skywalker's daughter.

Better than the PT, though.
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image.php
 
Gotchaye said:
This was pretty confusing to everyone I saw it with today. I don't think anyone wants prequel-type politics, but it's just really unclear what the balance of galactic power looks like. The Resistance (who are they resisting?) has, like, a couple dozen X-Wings. The Republic appears to exist on paper only and evidently lacks anything with both guns and a hyperdrive. The First Order can build mega- Death Stars, has Star Destroyers, and understands itself to be some kind of insurgency.
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How can someone watch the movie and not know the resistance is resisting the First Order?

Anyways I expect movies 8 and 9 to delve into the overal war more deeply. This movie was just a set up for the rest.
 
friend pointed it out to me but that alien lady with the glasses looks like one of the mars need moms aliens
mars_needs_moms_4.jpg

now i cant unsee
 
Bobby Roberts said:
Because Snoke himself says his training isn't complete. Hence not "fully trained."

Also the level of his competency is murky. he's got two new Force Powers, but he's also, since Luke's been gone, had a severe lack of opponents to test himself against. There's a power vaccuum that he and Snoke occupied, really. They don't have to be THAT strong. Certainly not Emperor/Vader strong.

That doesn't make them pushovers (though I think Snoke is fronting) but it doesn't mean Snoke is some sort of Palpatine-level genius, or that Kylo really knows what he's doing. I think it's obvious he doesn't. It's why he's so desperate. It's why he talks to the burnt mask of his dead grandfather.
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I get all that it's just the evidence is so limp. Like the only reason people say this is Snoke says "... so he can complete his training" or whatever it is. That could take five minutes even.

But mostly, the idea of training as "completable" is silly. Everyone's always got room to improve. And if you're going to call Snoke fronting than looking to him as someone who can usefully "complete" Kylo's training is silly. I suppose it isn't clear that Snoke himself is a Force user but he must have some access to a Force User at least?

I didn't catch it the first time but when Snoke asks Ren about the "awakening" I suppose Ren could be lying about having felt it, but I don't think that makes sense.

Kylo is a damn Vader fanboy and he's eager for Force powers. If he isn't also running around doing some self-study on the side then I'm just embarrassed for him. So being a big fish in a small pond is a nice idea but it flies in the face of his express ambition to pursue power and do what Vader couldn't. Ren's primary motivation isn't bullying his way into running Starkiller, it's becoming like Vader: surely he's taken action toward achieving that goal? Doesn't seem like just achieving "good enough for now" should be satisfying for him.

GhaleonEB said:
It's one point on a long list of reasons why the fight plays out the way it does. But it matters in large part because TFA goes to pains to point it out, and emphasize the fact that Kylo is not trained, and then demonstrates that through his actions. I think it becomes even more clear if you expand the idea of 'training' to include more than just sword fighting. In the film Snoke refers to Kylo facing Han as his greatest "test", and Kylo says "by the grace of your training" he'll succeed. There's more to his training than just swinging a lightsaber and force powers.
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"Pains" and "emphasis"? The only line is Snoke's about completing his training. I suppose you're right about the "emotional" part of training helping this a bit but... he shouldn't have Force powers at all without at least some emotional control. And then hoe could Snoke complete his emotional training? Ren knows what his problems are, he expressed that clear when wrestling with whether to kill Han. Snoke's going to say "hey you're kind of sentimental and you need more clarity of purpose" and then Ren says "yes" and then... Snoke makes him slaughter puppies until he can do it without crying?

It's weird because he passed his "greatest test", right? I suppose we could take his subsequent jobbing in the woods as indicating that he failed the test, that he thought simply the act of killing Han was sufficient but really he had to do it with malice in his heart?

GhaleonEB said:
He was a much better swordsman than Rey, but he lost for other reasons. (The rematch is going to be amazeballs.)
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Agreed!
 
I feel like Rey is either going to go to the dark side in one of the later movies OR which is what I think is more likely to happen, not choose a side and as a result be the true balance of the force.

Really banking on the latter to be true. Because it would make sense of her being OP as fuck and maintaining balance by neither supporting the light or dark side, which is what I always believed the point of Anakin was supposed to be before he was picked up as a padawan and then eventually swayed to the dark side.
 
Obliterator said:
Well damn thats interesting. Do we think / know why exactly R2 was in the low power state? Was it due to grief from being separated from Luke or did Luke himself purposely put him in that state?
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I actually think C3PO *thinks* that R2D2 is in a low power state because he's depressed about Luke BUT I think the real reason is that he was dedicating everything to finding Luke. It seems like he may have been searching for the rest of the map. 3PO thinks it's doubtful that the map would be in R2's back-up data files, so it kinda makes sense that R2 was searching for it. When he wakes up, he even tells 3PO that he found it (it being the rest of the map). In other words, he woke up when he did because that's when he found and had finished getting the other piece of the map to Luke. The First Order had the other part of the map from the Empire's archives, so maybe R2 was searching there? R2 knew that BB-8 had the other piece, but perhaps R2 didn't yet have the piece they needed to complete it yet? It explains why he didn't wake up the first time BB-8 was near him with the one piece of the map.
 
I don't understand that explanation that R2 woke up from his "coma" at the end of the film because BB8 rolled into the room and he detected he had the missing piece of the map. BB8 uncovered R2 before the attack on starkiller base and tried talking to him then and got nothing. Why did R2 wake up the second time when he wasn't even near it that time?
 
El Odio said:
I don't understand that explanation that R2 woke up from his "coma" at the end of the film because BB8 rolled into the room and he detected he had the missing piece of the map. BB8 uncovered R2 before the attack on starkiller base and tried talking to him then and got nothing. Why did R2 wake up the second time when he wasn't even near it that time?
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Because it was the end of the movie and they had to wrap things up
 
Brakke said:
I get all that it's just the evidence is so limp. Like the only reason people say this is Snoke says "... so he can complete his training" or whatever it is. That could take five minutes even.
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"it could take five minutes" is pretty limp, man. C'mon. "He just got his ass whipped pretty badly, and our star-destroying solar system killer is going to blow up - let's get him in there for that five minute Jazzercise course that turns him into uber-Vader."

There's more to these villains than just boilerplate super-competency and cold efficiency. They're sloppy, overeager, ambitious maniacs. They're radicals (they're fuckin radicals kill people burn shit fuck school), and there's more to them than just "I got everything planned to the nth degree"

They're chaotic.
 
commish said:
How can someone watch the movie and not know the resistance is resisting the First Order?

Anyways I expect movies 8 and 9 to delve into the overal war more deeply. This movie was just a set up for the rest.
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Yes, obviously the Resistance is there to fight the First Order. But it's really weird to talk about this as a "resistance" while presenting the First Order as not the dominant power in the galaxy. Why does the Republic not care about the people who seem to have them outgunned? Where are the Republic's version of Star Destroyers? The movie seems to need the Empire to still be alive and kicking and for the Republic to have created a space for Luke to train Jedi and feel unnecessary enough to go Yoda, for Han and Leia to raise a kid, and for Stormtroopers to not control what I assume is Coruscant but which is at least no Tatooine.
 
Gotchaye said:
Yes, obviously the Resistance is there to fight the First Order. But it's really weird to talk about this as a "resistance" while presenting the First Order as not the dominant power in the galaxy. Why does the Republic not care about the people who seem to have them outgunned? Where are the Republic's version of Star Destroyers? The movie seems to need the Empire to still be alive and kicking and for the Republic to have created a space for Luke to train Jedi and feel unnecessary enough to go Yoda, for Han and Leia to raise a kid, and for Stormtroopers to not control what I assume is Coruscant but which is at least no Tatooine.
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No one knew about Starkiller until it fired I believe. They had no idea how powerful The First Order was because The Republic wanted to rule on peace not fear and thus didn't believe the First Order were actual threats,
 
Have we heard anything from Lucas yet? Be interested to know his reaction as an outsider for the first time.
 
Gotchaye said:
Yes, obviously the Resistance is there to fight the First Order. But it's really weird to talk about this as a "resistance" while presenting the First Order as not the dominant power in the galaxy. Why does the Republic not care about the people who seem to have them outgunned? Where are the Republic's version of Star Destroyers? The movie seems to need the Empire to still be alive and kicking and for the Republic to have created a space for Luke to train Jedi and feel unnecessary enough to go Yoda, for Han and Leia to raise a kid, and for Stormtroopers to not control what I assume is Coruscant but which is at least no Tatooine.
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What gets me is that this resistance, clearly built a top the remains of the rebels from the OT, are still a rag tag bunch. Rag tag for like 70 years total dating back to the end of the PT? After taking down the entire empire, you'd expect them to advance at least somewhat up the totem pole.
 
What about Kylo Ren makes him a wuss? Dude murdered a whole village at the start of the movie, killed billions when he blew up multiple planets while giving no fucks and then he murdered his own dad.
 
Bobby Roberts said:
"it could take five minutes" is pretty limp, man. C'mon. "He just got his ass whipped pretty badly, and our star-destroying solar system killer is going to blow up - let's get him in there for that five minute Jazzercise course that turns him into uber-Vader."

There's more to these villains than just boilerplate super-competency and cold efficiency. They're sloppy, overeager, ambitious maniacs. They're radicals (they're fuckin radicals kill people burn shit fuck school), and there's more to them than just "I got everything planned to the nth degree"

They're chaotic.
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Nah man. Clearly Kylo is fully trained. Snoke just forgot to take his Darkside Limiter off. :D
 
janoDX said:
http://io9.gizmodo.com/kylo-ren-is-everything-that-anakin-skywalker-should-hav-1749606647

Those guys got it, you don't.

I don't need to explain.
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Please, pretending that Kylo Ren is a brilliant, troubled character is laughable. The guy has the angst of a linkin park album. He's paperthin evil simply for the sake of the movie having a big bad.

Darth Vader was ruined in the PT. But in the OT he was precisely what needed to be. Kylo Ren was just a second rate retread, simply because Star Wars needs a clearly defined Darth Vader. Much in the same way Phantom Menace had to shove Darth Maul into the picture for no real reason.

Einchy said:
What about Kylo Ren makes him a wuss? Dude murdered a whole village at the start of the movie, killed billions when he blew up multiple planets while giving no fucks and then he murdered his own dad.
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That he was seduced to the dark side because he imagines himself talking to "grammpa" simply for the sake of giving the film an antagonist.

If you want non-wussy dark side, go look at the KOTOR games.
 
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