• Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!

[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works

foxtrot3d said:
It was never established that his Aunt and Uncle were poor, they seemed to be doing alright. That blue milk can't be cheap out in the middle of nowhere.
Click to expand...

With the way they casually just "took the blue one" without even inspecting R2 when the original droid blew suggests they're doing pretty well for themselves.
 
Fencedude said:
I'm responding to the people who get all in a huff at the thought that this blatantly obvious double standard .
Click to expand...

I guess I don't see the double standard. Rey is a great pilot. Her Force sensitivity allows her to impressively navigate the Falcon through a Star Destroyer. Luke doesn't really show off his piloting skills at any point in the OT, I believe. During the dogfight, he's not particularly spectacular. Luke gets saved by Wedge at one point. He doesn't do any awesome maneuvers and I believe the only thing he flies into is the trench, which is a straight line.

Rey, is able to use the Jedi Mind Trick on someone. Up until that point in the movies, we've only seen experienced Jedi do such a thing. Luke didn't do it until ROTJ. It's definitely a reflection on his character, he's more wise, more mature. When I see that, I get the sense that he had to reach this state in order to do it. Luke also blocks the blaster shots while blindfolded, but if you watch that scene again, he's been at it for some time without the visor on. He gets frustrated with the training because he keeps getting shot. You would think that since he's Force sensitive that he'd be able to do it without a problem, but he needs a bit of extra help from Obi Wan. Luke gets blindfolded and tries his hand again. He gets shot again. Then Luke shows his potential with the Force by blocking the shots. While Han dismisses it as luck, Luke says that he could actually feel something. Obi Wan tells him that this is his first step into a new world. We don't get the sense that he can do much yet, but the potential is there.

Rey has a great fight against Kylo (I actually came around on the fight; it's beautiful), where most of it, she's being pushed back. Kylo is on his A-game despite being injured twice and ordered to bring her in alive. Once she is reminded about the Force after already using the Force, she begins to overcomes Kylo and starts laying into him. Now he's on the ropes, she's got the upper hand. Rey is stopped by the deepening chasm between her and Kylo. Rey is victorious. Meanwhile, Luke's being chased down the trench. Vader is taking shots at him. Han to come bail him out at the end, giving Luke the much needed time and concentration to make the impossible shot with the aid of the Force -- after being reminded by Ghost Obi to trust in the Force twice. To me, it seems like Rey is better than Luke.
 
Fencedude said:
They omitted the "piece of trash" line so there was no indication there was anything to pay attention to there. Clever
Click to expand...

Yeah, that was risky to have the reveal spoiled, but cutting that line didn't draw attention to it.

On the topic of crowd reaction: honest responses to things happening in a film, in particular a film like Star Wars, can be a lot of fun. Cheers are great moments like the Falcon reveal are fun to be there for. What drives me nuts is talking during the film, particularly during quieter moments, so the entire theater has to listen.
 
foxtrot3d said:
It was never established that his Aunt and Uncle were poor, they seemed to be doing alright. That blue milk can't be cheap out in the middle of nowhere.
Click to expand...

In the old EU, the Lars farm was considered pretty impressive and second only to the Darklighter farm ran by Mr. Huff Darklighter (yes, Huff). If I recall correctly there was some kind of feud between with regards to acquiring land/territory.
 
heliosRAzi said:
I guess I don't see the double standard. Rey is a great pilot. Her Force sensitivity allows her to impressively navigate the Falcon through a Star Destroyer. Luke doesn't really show off his piloting skills at any point in the OT, I believe. During the dogfight, he's not particularly spectacular. Luke gets saved by Wedge at one point. He doesn't do any awesome maneuvers and I believe the only thing he flies into is the trench, which is a straight line.

Rey, is able to use the Jedi Mind Trick on someone. Up until that point in the movies, we've only seen experienced Jedi do such a thing. Luke didn't do it until ROTJ. It's definitely a reflection on his character, he's more wise, more mature. When I see that, I get the sense that he had to reach this state in order to do it. Luke also blocks the blaster shots while blindfolded, but if you watch that scene again, he's been at it for some time without the visor on. He gets frustrated with the training because he keeps getting shot. You would think that since he's Force sensitive that he'd be able to do it without a problem, but he needs a bit of extra help from Obi Wan. Luke gets blindfolded and tries his hand again. He gets shot again. Then Luke shows his potential with the Force by blocking the shots. While Han dismisses it as luck, Luke says that he could actually feel something. Obi Wan tells him that this is his first step into a new world. We don't get the sense that he can do much yet, but the potential is there.

Rey has a great fight against Kylo (I actually came around on the fight; it's beautiful), where most of it, she's being pushed back. Kylo is on his A-game despite being injured twice and ordered to bring her in alive. Once she is reminded about the Force after already using the Force, she begins to overcomes Kylo and starts laying into him. Now he's on the ropes, she's got the upper hand. Rey is stopped by the deepening chasm between her and Kylo. Rey is victorious. Meanwhile, Luke's being chased down the trench. Vader is taking shots at him. Han to come bail him out at the end, giving Luke the much needed time and concentration to make the impossible shot with the aid of the Force -- after being reminded by Ghost Obi to trust in the Force twice. To me, it seems like Rey is better than Luke.

Am I missing anything?
Click to expand...

Yes, a great deal, but much of it is in how you framed the things that Luke does vs. what Rey does.

I've harped on this often in this thread and others, but Farmer Luke blocking laser beams while blind within moments of first trying (after the helmet is put on) is straight up crazy. I think that's far more impressive than any one thing Rey does in the film. He's 1) using a sword for the first time ever, 2) blocking point blank laser fire with said sword, 3) three times in a row 4) while blind. Rey's feats are comparatively small by comparison - it's just that her Force use is more distributed across more moments. Her actual pace of learning each is in par with Luke, who accomplishes both of the things Obi-wan puts to him, immediately.

As for the mind trick requiring advanced training, we see Obi-wan block laser fire with his saber, and use the mind trick in ANH. It's not established at any point that the mind trick requires extensive Force training, any more than anticipating where laser fire will land before it lands. Luke picked up on that within a minute of having the blinders put on him. Rey picks up on the mind trick, after Ren has used it on her twice and she's learned to push back on it. And like Luke with the lightsaber, she fails in her first few attempts. The scenes in which they learn these things are about the same length.

Flying: Luke's father is described by Obi-wan as being the best pilot in the galaxy (IIRC, paraphrasing). It's established that he was a Jedi, adept in the Force. Later, Luke boasts of making shots that are "impossible, even with a computer" repeatedly on his own. The implication being, he's an incredible pilot, like his father, and for the same reason; he just didn't know it. And later demonstrates this, with his use of the Force, unaided with a computer. After Rey flies the Falcon so well, Finn asks her how she did it. She replies, "I don't know. I've flow before but never off planet..." In the case of Rey, we see her flying, and then learn why she can do what she did. With Luke, we hear about it first - then see him do it. But the reason they can pull off both is the same.

I think an element that gets lost in these comparisons is the difference in how Luke and Rey learn; people tend to look for 1:1 comparisons and when Rey doesn't match what was in ANH, cry foul. (General observation here, from all the prior times this has rolled through this and the Mary Sue thread.) Luke sees Obi-wan do a few things, and he gives Luke a few words of coaching. That's all the training he gets to "use the Force" during the lightsaber training, and in the climax to ANH. Rey learns via the school of hard knocks: Kylo Ren working her over. Kylo inadvertently teaches her what she can do by example, right down to helping her know she can do so in the first place. What he doesn't show her, she draws from what Maz told her once she learns she can actually follow her counsel.

She knows she can use the mind trick, because Kylo was trying it on her. She knows she can pull the lightsaber to her because Kylo has frozen her, tossed her into a tree, and then began to pull it to himself. She knows to concentrate on the Force at the end because of what Maz tells her - just as Luke knew from what Obi-wan told her.

So while there are not 1:1 analogues to Luke in ANH, Rey has the same, if not more, opportunities to learn what she learns.
 
Bobby Roberts said:
Wait, so the old EU retroactively made Luke a (relatively) rich kid?
Click to expand...

He had a car, his own fighter jet, and his uncle dropped cash on two droids like it was nothing. Those aren't things poor people have or can do. They are wealthy by Tatooine standards in the film. I think a lot of people just see them living in the middle of the desert and equate that with poor.
 
Nostremitus said:
He had a car, his own fighter jet, and his uncle dropped cash on two droids like it was nothing. Those aren't things poor people have or can do. They are wealthy by Tatooine standards in the film. I think a lot of people just see them living in the middle of the desert and equate that with poor.
Click to expand...
They got two secondhand droids from the Star Wars equivalent of used car salesmen. I don't think they're dirt-poor, but "wealthy" might be pushing it.
 
"Poor" by Tatooine standards outside of slavery is a bit hard to determine from the movies. The only example I can think of is Watto in Attack of the Clones. IIRC, he was homeless, so definitely below Luke's folks.

Something like a speeder is equivalent to a car and not indicative of being wealthy when you look at the rural US, but a T-16 is probably pricey.
 
GhaleonEB said:
Yeah, that was risky to have the reveal spoiled, but cutting that line didn't draw attention to it.

On the topic of crowd reaction: honest responses to things happening in a film, in particular a film like Star Wars, can be a lot of fun. Cheers are great moments like the Falcon reveal are fun to be there for. What drives me nuts is talking during the film, particularly during quieter moments, so the entire theater has to listen.
Click to expand...

The music really makes the Falcon reveal, so good.
 
Zoba said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rqa7Ml_us00
Click to expand...

8727894
8727894
8727894
8727894
 
i love the scene on the Falcon where Rey is fixing the leak and Finn and BB 8 are whispering. The body language is so good, especially the way Rey pops out to talk.

Think the prequels were missing that kind of organic interaction.
 
GhaleonEB said:
I've harped on this often in this thread and others, but Farmer Luke blocking laser beams while blind within moments of first trying (after the helmet is put on) is straight up crazy. I think that's far more impressive than any one thing Rey does in the film.
Click to expand...
It is straight up crazy, but it is also a first step, as Obi Wan says. Which is reinforced in the PT when we see kids doing it. It's something basic, like stretches.

As for the mind trick requiring advanced training, we see Obi-wan block laser fire with his saber, and use the mind trick in ANH. It's not established at any point that the mind trick requires extensive Force training, any more than anticipating where laser fire will land before it lands. Luke picked up on that within a minute of having the blinders put on him. Rey picks up on the mind trick, after Ren has used it on her twice and she's learned to push back on it. And like Luke with the lightsaber, she fails in her first few attempts. The scenes in which they learn these things are about the same length.
Click to expand...

It's not established, but it can be inferred since we have only seen experienced Jedis do the JMT up until Rey does it. And I don't think he does the mind trick on her -- he reads her mind, but he doesn't get her to do things that he wants.

Flying: Luke's father is described by Obi-wan as being the best pilot in the galaxy (IIRC, paraphrasing). It's established that he was a Jedi, adept in the Force. Later, Luke boasts of making shots that are "impossible, even with a computer" repeatedly on his own. The implication being, he's an incredible pilot, like his father, and for the same reason; he just didn't know it.
Click to expand...
For flying, Rey is much better at it than Luke. Hands down. Her flying, weaving through the Star Destroyer and then helping Finn line up the shot, is more impressive than what Luke has done in the entire OT. Compared to her, Luke is terrible and he needed to be bailed out twice.

And later demonstrates this, with his use of the Force, unaided with a computer.
Click to expand...
I don't think the Force had anything to do with his flying. With the shot, he definitely used the Force, but flying? Nah. It wasn't even an impossible shot; the guy who says it was just spouting hyperbole. If it was impossible, then the Rebel Alliance is pretty dumb... or desperate, but, even then, they could've just evacuated the planet.

people tend to look for 1:1 comparisons and when Rey doesn't match what was in ANH, cry foul.
Click to expand...

I don't really fault them for that. For us, Luke is the only one we see really see grow into the Force. Of course we're going to look to him as a comparison. I didn't get a sense that Luke was proficient enough in the Force to do much. Some of us can divorce our expectations from that while others can't or won't. Rey did too much, too fast. And not in-universe fast, but in real-time.
 
Zoba said:
i love the scene on the Falcon where Rey is fixing the leak and Finn and BB 8 are whispering. The body language is so good, especially the way Rey pops out to talk.

Think the prequels were missing that kind of organic interaction.
Click to expand...

I think the "droid, please" part was a little on the nose though. Like the scene where Solo is motioning Finn to look behind him.
 
SirMossyBloke said:
I think the "droid, please" part was a little on the nose though. Like the scene where Solo is motioning Finn to look behind him.
Click to expand...

Think they just wanted Finn to come off that way, like when he's harassing Phasma and Han tells him to dial it down. I can see how it'd take someone out of the film though.
 
The arm was weird. Coming so soon after Maz's "story for another time" especially. I feel like either one of those is just a silly quirk but two in a row given the rest of the movie is lame.
 
Saw the movie a second time tonight. Still loved it, Kylo Ren has definitely grown on me. Also, couldn't stop humming Rey's theme when I got home, beautiful track.
 
I had noticed before that the First Order seemed to be branding a lot of their stuff red: Red stamp on their TIE Fighters, red banners, etc. So I thought the explanation was going to be that C-3PO had gone undercover as a First Order droid or something like that.

Guess not.
 
heliosRAzi said:
It is straight up crazy, but it is also a first step, as Obi Wan says. Which is reinforced in the PT when we see kids doing it. It's something basic, like stretches.
Click to expand...
While true - the kids were in a school. Luke picks it up in ~1-2 minutes.

It's not established, but it can be inferred since we have only seen experienced Jedis do the JMT up until Rey does it. And I don't think he does the mind trick on her -- he reads her mind, but he doesn't get her to do things that he wants.
Click to expand...
I don't think this is a reasonable inference at all. You are having to add to the text of the films to arrive at that conclusion.

For flying, Rey is much better at it than Luke. Hands down. Her flying, weaving through the Star Destroyer and then helping Finn line up the shot, is more impressive than what Luke has done in the entire OT. Compared to her, Luke is terrible and he needed to be bailed out twice.
Click to expand...
Flying, perhaps. Shooting? ANH has different things to say on that subject.

I don't think the Force had anything to do with his flying. With the shot, he definitely used the Force, but flying? Nah. It wasn't even an impossible shot; the guy who says it was just spouting hyperbole. If it was impossible, then the Rebel Alliance is pretty dumb... or desperate, but, even then, they could've just evacuated the planet.
Click to expand...
ANH provides a character telling Luke something is nigh impossible. Luke says he does it all the time. It's a pretty clear establishment that Luke is a good pilot/shot. But you are arguing that his words don't mean what he actually said, which downplays Lukes abilities and thus widens the gulf between Luke and Rey.

Your arguments are having to add interpretations to the films that the films themselves do not support, or argue for interpretations of simple statements to mean the oppose if what they mean. Sometimes a good shot is just a good shot. :p

I don't really fault them for that. For us, Luke is the only one we see really see grow into the Force. Of course we're going to look to him as a comparison. I didn't get a sense that Luke was proficient enough in the Force to do much. Some of us can divorce our expectations from that while others can't or won't. Rey did too much, too fast. And not in-universe fast, but in real-time.
Click to expand...
Again, I you're simply wrong here and having to ignore what actually happens in ANH to arrive at this conclusion.

To be clear, Luke learns and pulls off the only things he attempts with the Force immediately in ANH: 1-2 minutes, in real-time, for what you agreed was "crazy". The "use the Force" moment at the end, with no training at all. That is the standard to which Rey should be compared. She does not learn faster than this. She learns just as fast as Luke.
 
I'm pretty sure the only "wealthy" creatures on Tatooine are Hutts, and if anyone else became conspicuously well-to-do a Hutt would become slightly wealthier and slightly fatter in short order.

I think the fact Jedi are all "natural" pilots due to the Force is pretty reasonable. If they weren't, why would they even matter much? These are Star Wars, a dude with a laser sword who can't do anything useful in a spaceship fight is practically worthless in a military sense.

I mean, all you'd need to do to defeat the Jedi Council if they weren't some sort of natural ace pilots is bombard them from orbit while giggling maniacally. What are they going to do, hop on and say, "Fly me at them, I want to hit them with my sword"?
 
Zoba said:
i love the scene on the Falcon where Rey is fixing the leak and Finn and BB 8 are whispering. The body language is so good, especially the way Rey pops out to talk.

Think the prequels were missing that kind of organic interaction.
Click to expand...

I think they were mostly missing organic anything.
 
I mean you're proposing an orbital bombardment on the seat of Galactic government so we're not exactly talking about canon right now.
 
I don't think this is a reasonable inference at all. You are having to add to the text of the films to arrive at that conclusion.
Click to expand...
I think it's reasonable and a lot of other people have come to that conclusion as well. You're just saying that it isn't an advanced technique based on one person doing it. And if that's how they want to play it now, then lets roll with it, but It's not hard to see why people have a problem with an inexperienced novice doing a JMT when all of the other times, we see an experienced Jedi do it.

Flying, perhaps. Shooting?
Click to expand...
She is definitely better at flying than Luke. I never said that Rey was better at shooting than Luke.


ANH provides a character telling Luke something is nigh impossible.
Click to expand...
A no-name character. Yet, no one else makes that objection, I believe. There are some murmurs when they mention the size. And, again, if it was impossible, why even try it?

But you are arguing that his words don't mean what he actually said
Click to expand...
Because it's clear that he's being hyperbolic. Why make a plan that hinges on an impossible shot? It's obvious that it would be difficult,, but not outright impossible.
Your arguments are having to add interpretations to the films that the films themselves do not support, or argue for interpretations of simple statements to mean the oppose if what they mean. Sometimes a good shot is just a good shot. :p
Click to expand...
Sometimes there are unintended interpretations.

To be clear, Luke learns and pulls off the only things he attempts with the Force immediately in ANH: 1-2 minutes, in real-time
Click to expand...
You're also forgetting the too much part. As it is, in terms of skills known, Rey is on ROTJ Luke's level.

The "use the Force" moment at the end, with no training at all. That is the standard to which Rey should be compared. She does not learn faster than this. She learns just as fast as Luke.
Click to expand...
She learns just as fast and does so much more. Perhaps the problem is that while Luke had to learn to "let it in," she really didn't. We never got to see Luke use his reflexes -- wait, we did with the blaster shots and he was crap at it until he learned to let the Force take him. Rey really didn't.
 
BreezyLimbo said:
Austin Walker of Giant Bomb wrote an analysis on a few of the characters, and general thoughts about the narrative, and it's a pretty good read-
http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/off-the-clock-space-opera-millennials-and-their-gr/1100-5371/
Click to expand...

Hey, that IS a good article. Damn.

This passage specifically

Between Hux's fascism and Ren's anger at Rey's natural prowess, The Force Awakens anticipated some of its most ardent critics well enough to personify them in the film. Ren's frustration is particularly ironic. He believes in a twisted meritocracy: Those who practice drawing upon anger and hate will one day learn utilize the Force's full potential. When he is met with a person who--with no training--is able to outperform him, his worldview is so threatened that he takes drastic steps to try to reinforce it. But there are those in the world of Star Wars who are seemingly born with advantages others don't have, and this is as infuriating to Ren as it is to Rey's real life critics. Of course, this has been an uncomfortable fact about the world of Star Wars for as long as there have been Jedi, but before Rey, it went unchallenged. Suddenly, given the form of Daisy Ridley, old fans find an old truth undesirable.

Hux and Ren--and, I think, those angry fans--look backwards towards an elusive (and fictional) past where things were simpler, but The Force Awakens wants us to look forward instead, even though that might be challenging. The world is unfair, it says, and unstable. The things we thought were structural and eternal are in fact man-made and mutable. They're just very, very convincing. Addressing the challenges of the future will require not only people who are preternaturally skilled, like Rey, but also people like Finn, who will do what is needed when others refuse. I am thrilled that The Force Awakens is embracing this unsure future.

It is telling that the despite the heroic successes of its protagonists, the final moments of the film are not rendered in one the series' bold, enveloping wide shots. Instead, we see Rey and Luke--his face intimating a well of history and thought and just a little confusion.

They stand on a hill on an island on a planet of oceans, the camera spinning around them in a wide, almost dizzy crane shot. The camera shakes, just slightly, hit by wind and a whispered doubt about what's to come.
Click to expand...
 
Han literally says "Great shot kid that was one in a million!" So yea, it was an impossible shot according to at least two characters in the movie, one of which was a lead.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

New All You Can Eat Sushi Thread — So Full I May Not Survive the Night
25
4K
eddie4 replied
Something wrong with the Funny post thread?
0
2K
Amakusa replied
  • Locked
Resetera and the pedo problem (updates)
NSFW  43 44 45 46 47
2K
505K
notkeylime replied
  • Poll
Quick link to cancel your Star Wars Battlefront 2 Preorder - Vote with your wallet!
0
1
JaffeLion replied
  • Locked
What relaxes you the most?
0
4K
Big-G replied
Top Bottom