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[Imperfected]

It used to be I believe, but now it's not.

More to the point:

Are there any canon examples of Jedi who are not good pilots?

Anakin/Vader is said to be one of the greatest pilots to have ever lived.

Obi-Wan doesn't get anyone fluffing him, but he does have probably the most extensive one-on-one dogfight in the entire series with Jango Fett.

Luke and Rey both prove to be natural pilots.

Yoda gets a pass because he can't actually reach the controls.

 

[Brakke]

<3 Austin. Nice little Dawkins-blast too lol "I stand by those developments in my thinking, but what I don’t stand by is the brash, Dawkins-esque elitism that they were accompanied by."

I got a quibble though. What is "people like Finn, who will do what is needed when others refuse" about? Finn himself refuses to deliver BB-8 in the bar. Defecting doesn't really fit that description either, that was a fundamentally selfish act on Finn's part. And we never saw any other Troopers refuse to defect themselves.

 

[Veelk]

I think it's reasonable and a lot of other people have come to that conclusion as well. You're just saying that it isn't an advanced technique based on one person doing it. And if that's how they want to play it now, then lets roll with it, but It's not hard to see why people have a problem with an inexperienced novice doing a JMT when all of the other times, we see an experienced Jedi do it.

No, you are performing the classic false cause fallacy here. You're inferring that because X performed by Y, therefore Y is the causal factor that can do X. By this same logic, you can make similar inferences like

"In ANH, we've only seen men pilot space ships, therefore you must have to be a man to pilot space ships."

"In ANH, we've only seen leia record a hologram, therefore only Leia must know how to record a hologram."

"The whole series, we've seen the death star blow up, therefore it must blow up because it's a deathstar." This last one would even hold true, as that's the fate all planet killing space stations seem to share, yet it's absurd to say that's the reason they blow up.

It's not a rational conclusion at all.

She learns just as fast and does so much more. Perhaps the problem is that while Luke had to learn to "let it in," she really didn't. We never got to see Luke use his reflexes -- wait, we did with the blaster shots and he was crap at it until he learned to let the Force take him. Rey really didn't.

Yes she did, you just didn't pay enough attention. Her fight with Kylo Ren is an example of that. She tries to swing her lightsaber like a person who is just trying to rely on her fighting instincts, and fails completely. Then she lets the force in, and she now knows where and how to place her lightsaber to win.

 

[GhaleonEB]

You're also forgetting the too much part. As it is, in terms of skills known, Rey is on ROTJ Luke's level.

Rey does learn more individual abilities than Luke demonstrates in ANH, no argument there. However, she is also taught more, and has more reason to apply them. She really does not learn them faster than Luke, however; a simple comparison of the time from a concept being introduced to executed between Luke in ANH and to Rey in TFA demonstrates this.

Luke basically does two overt uses of the Force in ANH (blaster blocks, final shot). Rey does three (mind trick, light saber tug, "let it in" moment in the duel). It's really not so much that she does more, but rather that she does different things.

She learns just as fast and does so much more. Perhaps the problem is that while Luke had to learn to "let it in," she really didn't. We never got to see Luke use his reflexes -- wait, we did with the blaster shots and he was crap at it until he learned to let the Force take him. Rey really didn't.

The climax of the film is literally Rey learning to "let it in" to guide her in the saber fight - that's exactly what Maz tells her to do - just as with Luke in ANH in the trench run.

I really don't know if you are ignoring that or just didn't put it in that context, but if you are dismissing that moment as not being analogous to Luke's moment at the end of ANH, then this is exactly the kind of double standards that Bobby and others alluded to a while back.

 

[Johndoey]

It used to be I believe, but now it's not.

Yeah its no longer canon.

 

[MisterHero]

More to the point:

Are there any canon examples of Jedi who are not good pilots?

Anakin/Vader is said to be one of the greatest pilots to have ever lived.

Obi-Wan doesn't get anyone fluffing him, but he does have probably the most extensive one-on-one dogfight in the entire series with Jango Fett.

Luke and Rey both prove to be natural pilots.

Yoda gets a pass because he can't actually reach the controls.

Maybe Ben sucks at flying because he flies around in a stupid shuttle

 

[Squire]

Austin Walker from GiabtBomb saw the film over his Christmas break off from work. He wrote the most fascinating analysis:

Towards the start of the movie, Rey’s fandom is on full display in the form of a vintage X-Wing helmet and a doll of a rebel pilot--probably Luke, whose sandy footsteps Rey seems to be following in. Finn, a First Order stormtrooper gone AWOL, struggles to distance himself from the group he was born into--a group that (despite a fairly complex history) likely conjures for the viewer only the image of faceless totalitarianism. Kylo Ren dwells on the good ol’ days of Darth Vader, frustrated like a 20-something who thinks that Baby Boomers are right about the rest of his lazy generation.

http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/off-the-clock-space-opera-millennials-and-their-gr/1100-5371/

He picks up on a few other things that have come up in these spoiler threads and makes some great contributions of his own. It's a fantastic read.

 

[The Librarian]

Fucking hell. Didn't catch something so plain -- thanks to the dude from GiantBomb for pointing it out.

Ben believes he should be extremely powerful because of who he is, even though he's afraid he isnt. When Rey beats him, it's like a slap in the face.

 

[Twilight Gap]

Rey is a Kenobi

believe

 

[Squire]

Ahhhh, beaten.

Well, glad it was noted here. Fine read.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

What is "people like Finn, who will do what is needed when others refuse" about? Finn himself refuses to deliver BB-8 in the bar. Defecting doesn't really fit that description either, that was a fundamentally selfish act on Finn's part..

Deciding not to be part of a murderous space Nazi regime murdering unarmed innocents on a backwater junkyard isn't really a great example of "fundamental selfishness," there's a context there you're kinda brushing to the side that makes a pretty big difference in terms of the characterization.

So far as his refusal to deliver BB-8, 1) he knows Rey & Han will get him the rest of the way and 2) actually joining the Resistance is probably a scary proposition to him for a couple reasons, one being that he's dead certain the First Order will mop their ass up, and there's no guarantee people there are gonna be too friendly to an ex-stormtrooper. Which is part of why he's hiding his past from Rey for so long. It's not selfishness in either instance you're bringing up. It's shame. And yet, in both cases, he does the right thing when pushed to the limit. He does the right thing every time. He's just not super-eager to do it. Which is fine. If doing the right thing was easy...

 

[Imperfected]

Maybe Ben sucks at flying because he flies around in a stupid shuttle

Snoke won't let him get his pilot license.

Stupid Snoke. Not like he's even Ben's real dad!

 

[brandonh83]

After another viewing, yeah... the entire first half is amazing, the second half obviously feels more sporadic and less "full" BUT it's still great and has some of the best scenes in the series. Because of this though, I have a hard time putting it over Empire. I just wonder how much difference the last minute cuts made.

I also liked Carrie Fisher more this time for whatever reason.

 

[Aselith]

Rey is a Kenobi

believe

I really hope that is not the case. Ren should be the people stuck in the past wanting everything to be connected

Spoiler

George Lucas

with Rey and Finn to show us the way forward into a galaxy that is opening up with people connected by relationships instead of blood and happenstance.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Deciding not to be part of a murderous space Nazi regime murdering unarmed innocents on a backwater junkyard isn't really a great example of "fundamental selfishness," there's a context there you're kinda brushing to the side that makes a pretty big difference in terms of the characterization.

So far as his refusal to deliver BB-8, 1) he knows Rey & Han will get him the rest of the way and 2) actually joining the Resistance is probably a scary proposition to him for a couple reasons, one being that he's dead certain the First Order will mop their ass up, and there's no guarantee people there are gonna be too friendly to an ex-stormtrooper. Which is part of why he's hiding his past from Rey for so long. It's not selfishness in either instance you're bringing up. It's shame. And yet, in both cases, he does the right thing when pushed to the limit. He does the right thing every time. He's just not super-eager to do it. Which is fine. If doing the right thing was easy...

Not to mention that he takes up the lightsaber Rey left behind, and even tries to fight Kylo with it even though he knows he doesn't stand a chance.

 

[Johndoey]

Deciding not to be part of a murderous space Nazi regime murdering unarmed innocents on a backwater junkyard isn't really a great example of "fundamental selfishness," there's a context there you're kinda brushing to the side that makes a pretty big difference in terms of the characterization.

So far as his refusal to deliver BB-8, 1) he knows Rey & Han will get him the rest of the way and 2) actually joining the Resistance is probably a scary proposition to him for a couple reasons, one being that he's dead certain the First Order will mop their ass up, and there's no guarantee people there are gonna be too friendly to an ex-stormtrooper. Which is part of why he's hiding his past from Rey for so long.

How is it not? He didn't attempt to stop or otherwise halt the killing. He is terrified and runs away of course its a decision driven by selfishness. The choice he makes is solely to his benefit.

 

[Squire]

How is it not? He didn't attempt to stop or otherwise halt the killing. He is terrified and runs away of course its a decision driven by selfishness. The choice he makes is solely to his benefit.

A single clone trooper trying to stop a whole battalion is not brave, it's stupid. A selflessness that benefits literally no one is worthless.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

How is it not? He didn't attempt to stop or otherwise halt the killing.

This is kind of a ridiculous question, though. It's not "selfish," because being selfish is a weak, small emotion, and because denying everything you've ever thought you were (or rather, were told you were) because you don't believe it's right, and you don't feel it's right, and you know it's not right, and choosing your own path is literally one of the bravest, strongest things any person can do.

He doesn't need to waste his life in a futile suicidal grand gesture in front of the mentally unstable Force user worshiping the dark side and his garrison of a hundred trained soldiers to prove that.

Again: Finn does the right thing when his back is against the wall. Every time, he does the right thing. He's not an angel about it, he's not some jut-jawed 40s hero (that's Poe), but when the chips are down, he does the right thing. And at the end of the movie, he DOES make the suicidal grand gesture anyway. When it's worth more, and when it means more.

 

[Twilight Gap]

I really hope that is not the case. Ren should be the people stuck in the past wanting everything to be connected

Spoiler

George Lucas

with Rey and Finn to show us the way forward into a galaxy that is opening up with people connected by relationships instead of blood and happenstance.

Well I'd rather she's a Kenobi than a Skywalker.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Yes she did, you just didn't pay enough attention. Her fight with Kylo Ren is an example of that. She tries to swing her lightsaber like a person who is just trying to rely on her fighting instincts, and fails completely. Then she lets the force in, and she now knows where and how to place her lightsaber to win.

The climax of the film is literally Rey learning to "let it in" to guide her in the saber fight - that's exactly what Maz tells her to do - just as with Luke in ANH in the trench run.

Whoops, you're right. I meant it in reference to her piloting the Falcon well since it had to do with her reflexes or limited prescience or whatever. She had it while Luke didn't.

I really don't know if you are ignoring that or just didn't put it in that context, but if you are dismissing that moment as not being analogous to Luke's moment at the end of ANH, then this is exactly the kind of double standards that Bobby and others alluded to a while back.

I never ignored it. It's a great moment when she accepts her destiny. It's only marred since she is told of and declines her destiny so late in the movie that it feels rushed.

 

[Fata1moose]

Rey does learn more individual abilities than Luke demonstrates in ANH, no argument there. However, she is also taught more, and has more reason to apply them. She really does not learn them faster than Luke, however; a simple comparison of the time from a concept being introduced to executed between Luke in ANH and to Rey in TFA demonstrates this.

Luke basically does two overt uses of the Force in ANH (blaster blocks, final shot). Rey does three (mind trick, light saber tug, "let it in" moment in the duel). It's really not so much that she does more, but rather that she does different things.

You forgot the whole sequence where Rey out maneuvers a couple Tie Fighters while flying a ship for the first time.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

You forgot the whole sequence where Rey out maneuvers a couple Tie Fighters while flying a ship for the first time.

Luke manages to destroy a whole death star with little training or practice.

Again, people accept one(Luke being a naturally skilled pilot) but can't accept the fact that Rey is just as naturally skilled.

Edit-Wait read your post wrong >_> IGNORE THIS

 

[-griffy-]

I like that Finn is worried about how others will react to his past, without realizing that his present actions are already telling his new friends all they need to know about him: he's a good dude doing what is right.

Finn hones in on the selfish part of his own actions, that he's saving himself from a bad situation, without seeing that he is also choosing to actively help others who are in trouble. It's right in his first scene with Poe. "Why are you helping me?" "Because it's the right thing to do." "...you need a pilot." "I need a pilot." It's played as a gag, but the thing is Finn was only kidding himself that the only reason he is helping Poe is cause he needs a pilot.

He first approaches Rey when he thinks she's in trouble from Platt's muscle beating her up. His first reaction when the TIE's approach is to grab Rey's hand and lead her to safety. The first thing he does when Han is in trouble with the smugglers is size up the situation and figure out how to help him out. He says all he wants to do is run, yet he continually helps those around him.

His actions are literally speaking louder than words, and he doesn't see that until he confesses to Rey and she doesn't care he was a storm trooper. When he leaves Maz's castle and turns back to look at Rey one last time and sees that she's not there, I think that's when it actually clicks. Which is why when Kylo takes her, his first thought isn't to run but to go to Starkiller and help her.

 

[Brakke]

Deciding not to be part of a murderous space Nazi regime murdering unarmed innocents on a backwater junkyard isn't really a great example of "fundamental selfishness," there's a context there you're kinda brushing to the side that makes a pretty big difference in terms of the characterization.

So far as his refusal to deliver BB-8, 1) he knows Rey & Han will get him the rest of the way and 2) actually joining the Resistance is probably a scary proposition to him for a couple reasons, one being that he's dead certain the First Order will mop their ass up, and there's no guarantee people there are gonna be too friendly to an ex-stormtrooper. Which is part of why he's hiding his past from Rey for so long. It's not selfishness in either instance you're bringing up. It's shame. And yet, in both cases, he does the right thing when pushed to the limit. He does the right thing every time. He's just not super-eager to do it. Which is fine. If doing the right thing was easy...

You've sort of fixated on two words there and not answered my actual question. The only thing he does that other people won't or don't is to defect. And then it isn't that Stormtroopers are refusing to defect, it's that they're neglecting to. You've just said a bunch of things I basically agree with but they're different than the thing Austin said.

I don't know if his Rey summation tracks so well either. "Addressing the challenges of the future will require not only people who are preternaturally skilled, like Rey". What "challenges of the future" does this movie present? Like you said, it's couched heavily in 20th century fascism, that's a challenge acutely of the past. Sure fascism probably isn't dead forever but is this movie really positing that it's credibly a looming threat for our future? But even setting that aside, Rey's preternatural skills basically don't even solve any problems. She's not the reason Starkiller gets got, she barely has any hand in it happening. The only thing she does that's actually directed toward beating Starkiller is putting Finn on a path to the Resistance control room. The "problems of the future" are successfully defending ourselves from the envious entitled?

 

[Bobby Roberts]

You've sort of fixated on two words there and not answered my actual question.

No, I did. You maybe just didn't like it, but I absolutely answered your question. I'm "fixating" on two words there because those two words speak directly to the misunderstanding you seem to be operating from. I elaborated a little further at the top of the page in response to Doey, too.

Griffy: that's a great post.

 

[Veelk]

Whoops, you're right. I meant it in reference to her piloting the Falcon well since it had to do with her reflexes or limited prescience or whatever. She had it while Luke didn't.

The first time we see Luke in a fighter battle, he uses the force to do what he needs to do.

It's more subtle to conserve the twist later on, there is a heavy enough implication that it's pretty much undeniable that Rey used the force to pull of what she did.. It's not that we don't have cues cluing us into what is happening, they're just different so that we don't immediately recognize them for what they are.

 

[Nif]

You forgot the whole sequence where Rey out maneuvers a couple Tie Fighters while flying a ship for the first time.

I thought she mentioned that she hadn't flown out of the atmosphere before, implying that she has flown a ship before.

 

[Zabka]

You forgot the whole sequence where Rey out maneuvers a couple Tie Fighters while flying a ship for the first time.

It's not her first time

ETA: Beaten. I made a gif of one of my favorite MF scenes.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Whoops, you're right. I meant it in reference to her piloting the Falcon well since it had to do with her reflexes or limited prescience or whatever. She had it while Luke didn't.



I never ignored it. It's a great moment when she accepts her destiny. It's only marred since she is told of and declines her destiny so late in the movie that it feels rushed.

So fast? The visions are like at the halfway mark.

 

[heliosRAzi]

The first time we see Luke in a fighter battle, he uses the force to do what he needs to do.

He only uses the Force to make the shot after being told twice to do use the Force.

 

[Brakke]

No, I did. You maybe just didn't like it, but I absolutely answered your question. I'm "fixating" on two words there because those two words speak directly to the misunderstanding you seem to be operating from.

Griffy: that's a great post.

Name a thing that other people refuse to do that Finn does. Set aside the defection.

 

[Veelk]

He only uses the Force to make the shot after being told twice to do use the Force.

So, to paraphrase, "The first time we see Luke in a fighter battle, he uses the force to do what he needs to do"? I agree.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Name a thing that other people refuse to do that Finn does. Set aside the defection.

No, I'm not gonna set aside the defection because it's super-fucking-important. It's a major plot catalyst, and a huge part of Finn's characterization, as evidenced throughout his actions in the rest of the film. That's like asking me to explain how a bike is different than a motorcycle but to set aside the engine.

 

[Toa TAK]

Okay, real talk, Episode II had the best segue into the end credits.

 

[Brakke]

The defection is a single action though. You can't extrapolate from a single data point. And, again, there aren't any Stormtroopers who refuse to defect.

 

[Johndoey]

This is kind of a ridiculous question, though. It's not "selfish," because being selfish is a weak, small emotion, and because denying everything you've ever thought you were (or rather, were told you were) because you don't believe it's right, and you don't feel it's right, and you know it's not right, and choosing your own path is literally one of the bravest, strongest things any person can do.

He doesn't need to waste his life in a futile suicidal grand gesture in front of the mentally unstable Force user worshiping the dark side and his garrison of a hundred trained soldiers to prove that.

Again: Finn does the right thing when his back is against the wall. Every time, he does the right thing. He's not an angel about it, he's not some jut-jawed 40s hero (that's Poe), but when the chips are down, he does the right thing. And at the end of the movie, he DOES make the suicidal grand gesture anyway. When it's worth more, and when it means more.

I don't disagree with the spirit of your post but the actual decision to defect was made in his own spiritual and mental self-interest it is a selfish act. I don't think that detracts from the character but it is selfish. A righteous act can be selfish.

 

[BronsonLee]

No, I'm not gonna set aside the defection because it's super-fucking-important. It's a major plot catalyst, and a huge part of Finn's characterization, as evidenced throughout his actions in the rest of the film. That's like asking me to explain how a bike is different than a motorcycle but to set aside the engine.

THE SPOILERS ARE DIFFERENT

 

[Bobby Roberts]

The defection is a single action though. You can't extrapolate from a single data point. And, again, there aren't any Stormtroopers who refuse to defect.

Maybe this is a matter of your misunderstanding the underlying meaning of Austin's words there and running with them? I dunno. It seemed pretty obvious to me what he was talking about. I'd suggest that since nobody else in the movie defects from the First Order, there's a decent example of him doing something nobody else (in the First Order) does.

Especially when you consider Kylo Ren, who is offered a chance to leave the First Order, and is offered forgiveness and a fresh start by his own father, and he refuses that. Kylo had MORE reason to leave, a better incentive, and a better escape plan, holding his hand out to him, and he didn't do it.

And then Finn, after realizing he always had something to fight for, he just needed to embrace who he really was in order to do it, fights that man who couldn't do what he did.

You can't extrapolate from a single data point

You can't handwave the story importance of the only Stormtrooper we've ever seen in a Star Wars movie deciding they need to escape that atmosphere and do better.

You and Doey are literally trying to mount an argument against someone choosing to not be a Nazi as if it was a moral weakness.

It's kinda fuckin mind-boggling, Brakke. It's like the (il)logical conclusion of the silly argument people were kicking at about a thread back where Finn should have been more torn up about shooting soldiers in an army that blew up five planets in one shot.

 

[Veelk]

The defection is a single action though. You can't extrapolate from a single data point. And, again, there aren't any Stormtroopers who refuse to defect.

That we see. Again, it's kind of inane to think that Finn is the only one who has ever defected just because he's the only one we see personally see defect. What do you think the reconditioning program that Finn would have been sent to exist for if they never encountered this problem with any other storm trooper? I doubt it's an especially high rate, but I'm sure it happens.

Edit: This is not to discredit the monumental importance of what Finn does, nor why he does it. I just think it's kind of absurd to take what we literally see as the only things that happen within the universe. It's the classic bathroom question. Does the fact that we never see the characters go pee mean they have never peed in their lives? Obviously not. Just use common sense.

 

[-griffy-]

I don't disagree with the spirit of your post but the actual decision to defect was made in his own spiritual and mental self-interest it is a selfish act. I don't think that detracts from the character but it is selfish. A righteous act can be selfish.

His decision to stop obeying orders could hardly be considered selfish, since it was perhaps the most dangerous thing he could do for himself in the given situation. It immediately put a target on his back, it got him noticed and marked by Kylo, it got Phasma checking to see if his weapon was even used and got him enrolled in reconditioning. It was in fact not a selfish act at all since the only outcome of his choice was immediate danger from his own supposed allies. It's actively working against his own self interest. He disobeys orders because he understands what they are asking him to do is simply wrong. The danger this choice puts him in causes his next action, which is to run.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

His decision to stop obeying orders could hardly be considered selfish, since it was perhaps the most dangerous thing he could do for himself in the given situation. It immediately put a target on his back, it got him noticed and marked by Kylo, it got Phasma checking to see if his weapon was even used and got him enrolled in reconditioning. It was in fact not a selfish act at all since the only outcome of his choice was immediate danger from his own supposed allies. It's actively working against his own self interest. He disobeys orders because he understands what they are asking him to do is simply wrong. The danger this choice puts him in causes his next action, which is to run.

Again, thanks for this.

 

[Fencedude]

The first time we see Luke in a fighter battle, he uses the force to do what he needs to do.

It's more subtle to conserve the twist later on, there is a heavy enough implication that it's pretty much undeniable that Rey used the force to pull of what she did.. It's not that we don't have cues cluing us into what is happening, they're just different so that we don't immediately recognize them for what they are.

hell she literally said "I have no idea how I did that that".

How are people so bad at basic comprehension

 

[Johndoey]

His decision to stop obeying orders could hardly be considered selfish, since it was perhaps the most dangerous thing he could do for himself in the given situation. It immediately put a target on his back, it got him noticed and marked by Kylo, it got Phasma checking to see if his weapon was even used and got him enrolled in reconditioning. It was in fact not a selfish act at all since the only outcome of his choice was immediate danger from his own supposed allies. It's actively working against his own self interest. He disobeys orders because he understands what they are asking him to do is simply wrong. The danger this choice puts him in causes his next action, which is to run.

I would argue it is selfish because he is considering his own moral well being, "can I live with my actions yes/no". That is still important.

Spoiler

Honestly i'm not trying to be difficult

 

[BronsonLee]

After rewatching the movie, Finn and Rey are still fucking hilarious to me

Rey got them crazy eyes when she's coming to go beat someone's ass

If you told me Finn was addicted to coke, I'd probably believe you

 

[-griffy-]

I would argue it is selfish because he is considering his own moral well being, "can I live with my actions yes/no".

That is a pretty weird way to contextualize doing the right thing in the face of objectively evil actions.

 

[Fencedude]

I would argue it is selfish because he is considering his own moral well being, "can I live with my actions yes/no".

By this definition literally everything is "selfish" and while that might be an interesting philosophical debate to have, I really don't think this is the time or place for it.

 

[Veelk]

That is a pretty weird way to contextualize doing the right thing in the face of objectively evil actions.

I mean, if we're being absolutely fair, then he's not exactly wrong. It is a decision that comes forth from a personal discontentment.

It's just that it begs the question that if choosing not to be part of a genocidal regime to the extreme endangerment of yourself while going out of your way to help out others isn't a selfless act, then what the hell is?

 

[Scrooge McDuck]

I would argue it is selfish because he is considering his own moral well being, "can I live with my actions yes/no". That is still important.

Spoiler

Honestly i'm not trying to be difficult

From that point of view, the only selfless actions are the ones that you'd come to regret later on.

 

[DrForester]

It's not her first time

ETA: Beaten. I made a gif of one of my favorite MF scenes.

Might be my favorite space shot of the Trilogy right there.

 

[Johndoey]

That is a pretty weird way to contextualize doing the right thing in the face of objectively evil actions.

Well being selfish doesn't absolutely have to be negative.

By this definition literally everything is "selfish" and while that might be an interesting philosophical debate to have, I really don't think this is the time or place for it.

To be honest this the view I subscribe to, but you are right.