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[Bobby Roberts]

Might be my favorite space shot of the Trilogy right there.

I think the initial shot of the Interceptors/Fighters breaking over the Falcon cockpit is my favorite, actually. I don't know that I've ever thought about that before, but it's still done so well. There's a general sense of "oh shit" (punctuated by our favorite fishy friend) but then Lando says "fighters, coming in" and then a fucking HURRICANE OF TIES just hits you in the FACE. Then there's the reverse as even more of them keep flooding over the shop. That escalation was amazing, and still is.

Episode III tried to top it over 20 years later and still couldn't do it.

 

[Johndoey]

After rewatching the movie, Finn and Rey are still fucking hilarious to me

Rey got them crazy eyes when she's coming to go beat someone's ass

If you told me Finn was addicted to coke, I'd probably believe you

How they keep the Troopers motivated.

 

[Brakke]

You and Doey are literally trying to mount an argument against someone choosing to not be a Nazi as if it was a moral weakness.

Totally inaccurate read. People shouldn't be Nazis, Nazis are a bad thing to be.

That we see. Again, it's kind of inane to think that Finn is the only one who has ever defected just because he's the only one we see personally see defect. What do you think the reconditioning program that Finn would have been sent to exist for if they never encountered this problem with any other storm trooper? I doubt it's an especially high rate, but I'm sure it happens.

Isn't Finn literally the only one who ever defected? Doesn't Hux have a line about this is the first time the conditioning failed so thoroughly?

Edit: This is not to discredit the monumental importance of what Finn does, nor why he does it. I just think it's kind of absurd to take what we literally see as the only things that happen within the universe. It's the classic bathroom question. Does the fact that we never see the characters go pee mean they have never peed in their lives? Obviously not. Just use common sense.

I'm not really concerned with what may or may not have happened off-screen though. Austin's making a claim about a defining theme of the movie. If the Valor Of Defection was a theme of the movie, we'd see a more thorough examination of defection. Instead we see one defection and as Bobby point out one refusal to defect.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Totally inaccurate read.

I'd hope so.

 

[Veelk]

Isn't Finn literally the only one who ever defected? Doesn't Hux have a line about this is the first time the conditioning failed so thoroughly?

Not that I can recall. Ren was the one throwing it in his face while Hux tried to deflect the issue. But even if so, it's more likely in reference to the fact that Finn's defection is really screwing them over because he's the reason they don't have Luke's location data, while most other defections just mean they have one less stormtrooper.

I'm not really concerned with what may or may not have happened off-screen though. Austin's making a claim about a defining theme of the movie. If the Valor Of Defection was a theme of the movie, we'd see a more thorough examination of defection. Instead we see one defection and as Bobby point out one refusal to defect.

Not really. Finn's defection and loyalty issues are the driving point of his character arc. He defected from the First order, and then joined with a makeshift resistance group with Han and Rey, not offically part of the Resistance, but with them in actual spirit. The midpoint of the movie has him about to defect once again, abandon Rey and Han in a play for personal safety. But when the call of duty came to, not only did he stay, he went into the heart of enemy territory to do his mission.

The question of Finn's loyalty is the defining theme of the movie, him not willing to be part of any organization, yet working with nobility in mind all the same. We don't have to see other Storm Troopers to have it be the defining theme, especially when other characters mirror it in other ways. Rey defection from her mission of waiting for her family, Han's defection from the Republic/Resistance and his family, Kylo's struggle with defection from Snoke and the First order, etc.

 

[Brakke]

I mean, if we're being absolutely fair, then he's not exactly wrong. It is a decision that comes forth from a personal discontentment.

It's just that it begs the question that if choosing not to be part of a genocidal regime to the extreme endangerment of yourself while going out of your way to help out others isn't a selfless act, then what the hell is?

Well there's a couple things there. The actual act of leaving the Order doesn't help anyone. He doesn't in any way damage the Order's capacity for destruction by leaving. That division torched the town just fine without Finn's help. Then I don't know if we give him credit for busting out Poe as "going out of his way": busting Poe out was directly in his way. He would've failed absolutely without Poe.

But the real thing is the speech to Maz. He straight up refuses to engage the Order, he makes it clear that he's prioritizing his own skin over completing the BB-8 mission. Of course ultimately he does get with the order, but even then the question of selfishness is sort of messy. I *hate* his little thing with Han where he says he doesn't have a plan on Starkiller and lied to them so he could rescue Rey. He literally put his objective ahead of the objective of the Resistance, and in doing so deceived them and put all of Black Team's lives in danger. Now his objective *is* to risk his life for Rey's sake so that's not necessarily selfish.

Struggling with his selfishness versus his sense impulse to help people is definitely a thing for Finn. Eventually he gets to the point of duty over self-interest in standing for a hopeless battle with Kylo.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

The actual act of leaving the Prder doesn't help anyone.

It helps Poe a hell of a lot.

 

[BronsonLee]

How they keep the Troopers motivated.

Phasma's the supplier

 

[Brakke]

It helps Poe a hell of a lot.

Only by happenstance. He doesn't defect *to* help Poe, he uses Poe to defect. Poe is the answer to a the question, he's the means to Finn's end. Does Finn's escape plan break the categorical imperative? Sort of hard to say for sure either way.

 

[Twilight Gap]

Okay, real talk, Episode II had the best segue into the end credits.

holy nostalgia trip.

 

[foxtrot3d]

He only uses the Force to make the shot after being told twice to do use the Force.

A shot he himself thought was easily doable without using The Force.

 

[Imperfected]

But the real thing is the speech to Maz. He straight up refuses to engage the Order, he makes it clear that he's prioritizing his own skin over completing the BB-8 mission. Of course ultimately he does get with the order, but even then the question of selfishness is sort of messy. I *hate* his little thing with Han where he says he doesn't have a plan on Starkiller and lied to them so he could rescue Rey. He literally put his objective ahead of the objective of the Resistance, and in doing so deceived them and put all of Black Team's lives in danger. Now his objective *is* to risk his life for Rey's sake so that's not necessarily selfish.

A New Hope was basically the Hero's Journey movie. There's a certain expectation that the Hero's Journey will be repeated, so Abrams went through the motions of "Refusing the Call" for Rey and Finn simultaneously.

In any event, Finn's abject terror of the First Order doesn't make his defection less brave, it makes it more brave. There's little courage required to walk away from something when there are no consequences. Finn, though, believes deeply enough that it terrifies him that the First Order has inescapable reach and unstoppable power, along with the sort of bloody vendetta that makes crossing them suicidal. And he does it anyway rather than towing the line.

Yes, it's less heroic than becoming a martyr trying to stop them, but it still takes an enormous amount of courage to choose a life of running in justified terror over the relatively easy option of saying, "Sure, it sucks that I'm shooting these innocent Jakkuvians, but if I don't they'll just get some other poor shmuck to do it anyway. No sense losing my head over it."

 

[Brakke]

I don't think "bravery" and "selfishness" need to be exclusive ideas. When I'm playing poker and push all-in that's "brave" in the sense that I'm putting my own skin on the line but it's still fundamentally selfish: I'm attempting to enrich myself at someone else's cost.

 

[Zabka]

Might be my favorite space shot of the Trilogy right there.

If anyone has 8.5 minutes to burn you should watch this edit of just the space battle from ROTJ. There's so many amazing shots in it and it hasn't been topped in 33 years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPZigWFyK2o

I think this might be my favorite shot of any space...thing ever in a movie. The Falcon enters, weaving its squadron through the Rebel capital ships: http://i.imgur.com/eeL8j2v.gifv
Too big for a regular gif. We need more/different ships in the sequels. Lando was awesome.

 

[Ishida]

Okay, real talk, Episode II had the best segue into the end credits.

"Begun, the Clone War has..."

Holy shit. Amazing ending.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

I think the initial shot of the Interceptors/Fighters breaking over the Falcon cockpit is my favorite, actually. I don't know that I've ever thought about that before, but it's still done so well. There's a general sense of "oh shit" (punctuated by our favorite fishy friend) but then Lando says "fighters, coming in" and then a fucking HURRICANE OF TIES just hits you in the FACE. Then there's the reverse as even more of them keep flooding over the shop. That escalation was amazing, and still is.

Episode III tried to top it over 20 years later and still couldn't do it.

The Star Destroyers in the background. That moment you knew that shit got real.

 

[munchie64]

If anyone has 8.5 minutes to burn you should watch this edit of just the space battle from ROTJ. There's so many amazing shots in it and it hasn't been topped in 33 years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPZigWFyK2o

I think this might be my favorite shot of any space...thing ever in a movie. The Falcon enters, weaving its squadron through the Rebel capital ships: http://i.imgur.com/eeL8j2v.gifv
Too big for a regular gif. We need more/different ships in the sequels. Lando was awesome.

And that's barely changed in later releases right? So good. Hasn't been topped. I'd hope for any future Star Wars film to try something similar. Maybe even Rouge One with Edwards and the helm.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Whoops, you're right. I meant it in reference to her piloting the Falcon well since it had to do with her reflexes or limited prescience or whatever. She had it while Luke didn't.

I never ignored it. It's a great moment when she accepts her destiny. It's only marred since she is told of and declines her destiny so late in the movie that it feels rushed.

I thought it fit in well with the progression of her arc, but fair enough.

 

[OricWindstar]

It's so odd to me Abrams thought the diversity of ships in the Endor space battle made it hard to follow and that's why we only have X-Wings in TFA. I've never heard that complaint and definitely never had any issue with it myself.

 

[Toa TAK]

It's so odd to me Abrams thought the diversity of ships in the Endor space battle made it hard to follow and that's why we only have X-Wings in TFA. I've never heard that complaint and definitely never had any issue with it myself.

Is there a source for this? I keep seeing it brought up, and the only reason it strikes me is that I find it super hard to believe that such a fanboy of Star Wars would say or think that. Like, that line of thought doesn't even register in my mind. Was it really his choice or the studio?

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Is there a source for this? I keep seeing it brought up, and the only reason it strikes me is that I find it super hard to believe that such a fanboy of Star Wars would say or think that. Like, that line of thought doesn't even register in my mind. Was it really his choice or the studio?

I believe it was quoted in the art of book somewhere.

 

[OricWindstar]

Is there a source for this? I keep seeing it brought up, and the only reason it strikes me is that I find it super hard to believe that such a fanboy of Star Wars would say or think that. Like, that line of thought doesn't even register in my mind. Was it really his choice or the studio?

I'm at work, so I can't dig for the source at the moment, but I think it's in the art book.

But, with how fast this thread moves, it may have just been cited to that and not actually be from it.

 

[GhaleonEB]

A New Hope was basically the Hero's Journey movie. There's a certain expectation that the Hero's Journey will be repeated, so Abrams went through the motions of "Refusing the Call" for Rey and Finn simultaneously.

In any event, Finn's abject terror of the First Order doesn't make his defection less brave, it makes it more brave. There's little courage required to walk away from something when there are no consequences. Finn, though, believes deeply enough that it terrifies him that the First Order has inescapable reach and unstoppable power, along with the sort of bloody vendetta that makes crossing them suicidal. And he does it anyway rather than towing the line.

Yes, it's less heroic than becoming a martyr trying to stop them, but it still takes an enormous amount of courage to choose a life of running in justified terror over the relatively easy option of saying, "Sure, it sucks that I'm shooting these innocent Jakkuvians, but if I don't they'll just get some other poor shmuck to do it anyway. No sense losing my head over it."

And as Bobby pointed out a bit upstream, he circles back and does throw himself on the tracks at the end, knowing damn well he didn't have a chance. But he did it a time when it mattered.

 

[Kitschkraft]

This Finn defection argument...

The visual storytelling heavily implies that Finn is moral, righteous, and caring.

The have a *very* distinctive shot zooming in on him with a bloody imprint on his helmet, as soldiers around him are slaughtering innocents. We then have another *very* distinctive shot of the bad-guy staring him down, perplexed as to why one of the drones isn't acting out orders. That's the moment when you realize what his character is about. Doesn't matter if he's the first to do it, and it doesn't matter if he's also going to benefit from getting away from them.

He later challenges the one person in the galaxy that personifies everything he is afraid of. This is after he gets bested by a regular minion with the very same weapon. So he knows he's fucked against Kylo, but he cares about Rey so he charges the guy.

The dude has a moral compass and will do the right thing. That's all Austin was saying.

I feel like delving deeper into all of the philosophical stuff is going beyond the intention of what the movie was trying to portray. You could argue that every single act is driven by self-interest, so what? That shouldn't play into the interpretation of the character.

 

[Fallout-with-swords]

You forgot the whole sequence where Rey out maneuvers a couple Tie Fighters while flying a ship for the first time.

In the movie, Rey states she's flown before but never off world just like Luke. It can be presumed in the movie that she spends most of her time reading up on different ships and how they work, also not in the movie but stated in the Rey's Survival Guide book that she has also trained in flight simulators.

Bottom like is Rey is a good pilot because she is force sensitive. Just like Luke and Anakin before him. I hate that Rey being too good at stuff is still a subject of conversation, it's been talked about to death. And in a film franchise where characters are good at stuff because of their arbitrary connection to a magic force. Good grief.

 

[Prof. Bathtub]

Here's my post clearing up the "JJ is anti-Y/B/A Wing" business:

Here is the description in the art book:

Says nothing about JJ or Disney. It actually praises the concise design philosophies in RotJ. If anything, the statement might be contrasting itself to busyness found in things like the Transformers movies, though perhaps not since that's also ILM. There may be a decision around more/less ship types, but look elsewhere for the exact rationale.

 

[Toa TAK]

Here's my post clearing up the "JJ is anti-Y/B/A Wing" business:

Ah man, thank you. I was just about to post the blurb myself. (Page 174 for those at home).

So yeah, I don't know where the complaint comes from now. Or how that got mixed up from "Yo, ROTJ was cool with that easy identification" to "Man audiences are dumb, just have 2 types of ship go at it."

 

[Prof. Bathtub]

Ah man, thank you. I was just about to post the blurb myself. (Page 174 for those at home).

So yeah, I don't know where the complaint comes from now. Or how that got mixed up from "Yo, ROTJ was cool with that easy identification" to "Man audiences are dumb, just have 2 types of ship go at it."

If I had to make my own theory out of thin air as to why the ships were limited. I might float that they didn't have enough time to finalize and model other ships in life-sized scale, like they did with the TIE and X-Wing, and they didn't want to make these new ships CG-only, showing up unexpectedly in the action sequences.

That's admittedly a flimsy theory, but time constraints were the reason why Maz wasn't partially a puppet, so who knows what else was placed aside to get things finished?

 

[OricWindstar]

Here's my post clearing up the "JJ is anti-Y/B/A Wing" business:

Well, there it is. Glad to have the official statement on that, though that makes the X-Wings only even weirder.

 

[hipsterpants]

Half-watched ROTJ to finish my rewatch of the OT (it... definitely doesn't hold up when you're older lol). I know it's the nature of sequels, but knowing about the events of TFA and that New Republic/Empire stuff really takes a dump on the ending. It's like essentially they accomplished nothing in the end lol. It's depressing.

The further I get away from initially watching the film the more annoyed I get by the lack of explanations/sequel baiting present in this film. So many things are left unexplained and set up for Episode VIII and IX that it really detracts from the experience. I mean, Rey is the main character yet we have to wait to understand anything about her magical OP force powers or where she came from or any of that stuff. Same with Kylo, not-Voldemort, Finn to an extent, etc. A lot of characters are set up with the potential to be good but I'm being forced to see the next couple films to see if any of it really pays off. If you were to watch this film without the ability to watch the sequels at a later time, it would be extremely frustrating because the film doesn't tell you shit. That isn't something that a film should do. (I mean granted, I'm going to go see the next two films so I guess it works lol).

Speaking of which if we don't get some hot Rey-is-severely-tempted-by-the-darkside action I'll be super disappointed. I know that novelization or whatever has her do it when she's fighting Kylo but I want to see some on-screen shit. Imagine a "good" character using Force Lightning to attack some fools it would be fucking rad.

Spoiler

It would also make her less boring.

 

[MMarston]

Speaking of which if we don't get some hot Rey-is-severely-tempted-by-the-darkside action I'll be super disappointed. I know that novelization or whatever has her do it when she's fighting Kylo but I want to see some on-screen shit. Imagine a "good" character using Force Lightning to attack some fools it would be fucking rad.

Spoiler

It would also make her less boring.

If Rey's gonna do some darkside temptation action, it's gotta be a Force choke.

 

[DrForester]

Here is the description in the art book:

Says nothing about JJ or Disney. It actually praises the concise design philosophies in RotJ. If anything, the statement might be contrasting itself to busyness found in things like the Transformers movies, though perhaps not since that's also ILM. There may be a decision around more/less ship types, but look elsewhere for the exact rationale.

That quote makes no sense. They didn't use numerous ship types in TFA because it was too easy to tell them apart in RotJ?

 

[Smoolio]

Speaking of which if we don't get some hot Rey-is-severely-tempted-by-the-darkside action I'll be super disappointed.

I dont know, for me that would severely ruin Luke. Having a second apprentice fall or even come close would be like whats the point, that cliff edge is begging time, sad.

But I don't find her boring at all, her enthusiasm is infectious.

 

[Prof. Bathtub]

That quote makes no sense. They didn't use numerous ship types in TFA because it was too easy to tell them apart in RotJ?

It seems like two separate, but somewhat related thoughts:
"We don't want a lot of different esoteric ship types chaotically flying around [like that Katina level in Starfox 64]... Unlike RotJ's approach, where the good guys were angular and based on letters, and the bad guys were round balls attached to panels."

Note that they don't finish with "...and that's why we only used two ships."

 

[MMarston]

I dont know, for me that would severely ruin Luke. Having a second apprentice fall or even come close would be like whats the point, that cliff edge is begging time, sad.

Even at this point in Luke's story though, I think it can open up a potential character development with him as well. If Rey gets severely tempted to the darkside, it poses the question to Luke of "what am I doing wrong even with all my experience?"


EDIT: And on that note, given that Jedi seem to have a history of members shitting up the bed anyway whether in the current EU, the Prequels and obviously Vader, that question also applies to the general Jedi line of thinking as a result.

 

[SirMossyBloke]

Half-watched ROTJ to finish my rewatch of the OT (it... definitely doesn't hold up when you're older lol). I know it's the nature of sequels, but knowing about the events of TFA and that New Republic/Empire stuff really takes a dump on the ending. It's like essentially they accomplished nothing in the end lol. It's depressing.

I feel like that about all of them now due to poor Han

 

[MMarston]

I think we can still have a happy ending for the OT crew by the end of this. I mean, they don't have to be whacked for the sake of the new cast. Though I'm definitely having LOTR Return of the King super-mega-happy ending vibes at the thought of that, which could be hit or miss.

That said, it's still sucks that things went into the shitter in the years b/w films.

 

[brandonh83]

Just ordered all four IMAX posters from eBay -- which wasn't cheap so hopefully they're legit and arrive in peace.

 

[Imperfected]

Half-watched ROTJ to finish my rewatch of the OT (it... definitely doesn't hold up when you're older lol). I know it's the nature of sequels, but knowing about the events of TFA and that New Republic/Empire stuff really takes a dump on the ending. It's like essentially they accomplished nothing in the end lol. It's depressing.

Eh, it's not that bad.

Luke gets closure with his father.

Leia gets closure with revenge on Palpatine and prevents the completion of the same type of superweapon that destroyed her home planet.

Han gets to marry a princess and dramatically outlives the average life expectancy of a scumbag smuggler under the Empire's regime.

Chewie gets brushed and a whole bottle of Loreal all to himself.

A happy ending isn't supposed to mean things are great forever, because hey, ultimate spoiler here: everyone fucking dies. A happy ending means that people accomplished the things they set out to do in the immediate sense and have closure to their narrative arcs, and the only character who I'd argue loses that is Leia. (Because of these weird convolutions of the Republic/Resistance/First Order and the creation and firing of the Starkiller.)

Like, you're never really going to take away the fact that Luke's arc came to a satisfying conclusion without some supremely bad writing. ("Luke, I'm your real father! That was a clone-robot duplicate!") The fact he has new complications in his life, decades later, doesn't change that a bit.

 

[televator]

Think they just wanted Finn to come off that way, like when he's harassing Phasma and Han tells him to dial it down. I can see how it'd take someone out of the film though.

I love Finn for that sort of stuff. He's a fish out of water, a lost puppy, and everything to do with normal human behavior is new to him. He just don't know how to act sometimes. lol

 

[BuddyC]

It seems like two separate, but somewhat related thoughts:
"We don't want a lot of different esoteric ship types chaotically flying around [like that Katina level in Starfox 64]... Unlike RotJ's approach, where the good guys were angular and based on letters, and the bad guys were round balls attached to panels."

Note that they don't finish with "...and that's why we only used two ships."

Probably also worth noting that the two squadrons of X-Wings we see in the movie are literally all the Resistance has. I'm sure we'll see more in the subsequent films as the war escalates.

 

[Brakke]

It is silly that Episode VI is called "Return of the Jedi" but then VII makes it turn out that actually the Jedi only returned for like a minute and in fact they went right back away real quick, without really having any impact on the Galaxy.

 

[Twilight Gap]

I love Finn for that sort of stuff. He's a fish out of water, a lost puppy, and everything to do with normal human behavior is new to him. He just don't know how to act sometimes. lol

yup i think it works

 

[Dagobert Duck]

It is silly that Episode VI is called "Return of the Jedi" but then VII makes it turn out that actually the Jedi only returned for like a minute and in fact they went right back away real quick, without really having any impact on the Galaxy.

Maybe cause the force for once was balanced after VI, with Snoke and Luke. But than Luke started recruiting and training new Jedis which once again debalanced the force

 

[GhaleonEB]

I love Finn for that sort of stuff. He's a fish out of water, a lost puppy, and everything to do with normal human behavior is new to him. He just don't know how to act sometimes. lol

My favorite bit on that is when he's using Rey's head as a platform to boost himself up to see the ship that's pulling the Falcon in. (Rey: "Get off!" *smack*)

 

[Mendax]

It is silly that Episode VI is called "Return of the Jedi" but then VII makes it turn out that actually the Jedi only returned for like a minute and in fact they went right back away real quick, without really having any impact on the Galaxy.

maybe view this usage of jedi as singular and referring only to anakin; it works

 

[Brakke]

Episode I: The Phantom Menace, Jar Jar Binks
Episode VI: Return of The Jedi, Anakin
Episode VII: The Force Awakens [Rey]

Can we pretend that Jedi is Latin and the singular is "Jedo"?

 

[lednerg]

This Finn defection argument...

The visual storytelling heavily implies that Finn is moral, righteous, and caring.

The have a *very* distinctive shot zooming in on him with a bloody imprint on his helmet, as soldiers around him are slaughtering innocents. We then have another *very* distinctive shot of the bad-guy staring him down, perplexed as to why one of the drones isn't acting out orders. That's the moment when you realize what his character is about. Doesn't matter if he's the first to do it, and it doesn't matter if he's also going to benefit from getting away from them.

He later challenges the one person in the galaxy that personifies everything he is afraid of. This is after he gets bested by a regular minion with the very same weapon. So he knows he's fucked against Kylo, but he cares about Rey so he charges the guy.

The dude has a moral compass and will do the right thing. That's all Austin was saying.

I feel like delving deeper into all of the philosophical stuff is going beyond the intention of what the movie was trying to portray. You could argue that every single act is driven by self-interest, so what? That shouldn't play into the interpretation of the character.

You're spot-on. Finn brings the audience in with him being a stormtrooper going through a crisis of conscience. It was a completely different take on the usual blockbuster hero's friend narrative, where you've got a person you're automatically fine with from the start. Instead, you've got someone who goes through a complete change of heart from dark to light and is then forced into an epic story as a result. He is luckily surrounded by characters who are sympathetic and appreciative of him and his situation; his first encounter with Poe is especially gratifying. It all happens convincingly enough that he is not only a multi-dimensional character, but someone the audience can truly relate to and get behind. Finn just kicks all sorts of ass, basically.

EDIT: I'm on NeoGAF Gold and simply can't believe how many engagements this post has gotten in such a short amount of time, 5 minutes.

 

[Tcab96]

I love Finn for that sort of stuff. He's a fish out of water, a lost puppy, and everything to do with normal human behavior is new to him. He just don't know how to act sometimes. lol

Finn was by far my favorite character out of the whole bunch. Loved everything about him.

 

[lednerg]

Dude.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RS9LPPOIEZM

Dude.