DiipuSurotu
Banned
Maybe it belonged to his father?
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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works
- Thread starter Bobby Roberts
- Start date
Maybe it belonged to his father?
With the way they casually just "took the blue one" without even inspecting R2 when the original droid blew suggests they're doing pretty well for themselves.
heliosRAzi
Banned
I guess I don't see the double standard. Rey is a great pilot. Her Force sensitivity allows her to impressively navigate the Falcon through a Star Destroyer. Luke doesn't really show off his piloting skills at any point in the OT, I believe. During the dogfight, he's not particularly spectacular. Luke gets saved by Wedge at one point. He doesn't do any awesome maneuvers and I believe the only thing he flies into is the trench, which is a straight line.
Rey, is able to use the Jedi Mind Trick on someone. Up until that point in the movies, we've only seen experienced Jedi do such a thing. Luke didn't do it until ROTJ. It's definitely a reflection on his character, he's more wise, more mature. When I see that, I get the sense that he had to reach this state in order to do it. Luke also blocks the blaster shots while blindfolded, but if you watch that scene again, he's been at it for some time without the visor on. He gets frustrated with the training because he keeps getting shot. You would think that since he's Force sensitive that he'd be able to do it without a problem, but he needs a bit of extra help from Obi Wan. Luke gets blindfolded and tries his hand again. He gets shot again. Then Luke shows his potential with the Force by blocking the shots. While Han dismisses it as luck, Luke says that he could actually feel something. Obi Wan tells him that this is his first step into a new world. We don't get the sense that he can do much yet, but the potential is there.
Rey has a great fight against Kylo (I actually came around on the fight; it's beautiful), where most of it, she's being pushed back. Kylo is on his A-game despite being injured twice and ordered to bring her in alive. Once she is reminded about the Force after already using the Force, she begins to overcomes Kylo and starts laying into him. Now he's on the ropes, she's got the upper hand. Rey is stopped by the deepening chasm between her and Kylo. Rey is victorious. Meanwhile, Luke's being chased down the trench. Vader is taking shots at him. Han to come bail him out at the end, giving Luke the much needed time and concentration to make the impossible shot with the aid of the Force -- after being reminded by Ghost Obi to trust in the Force twice. To me, it seems like Rey is better than Luke.
Yeah, that was risky to have the reveal spoiled, but cutting that line didn't draw attention to it.
On the topic of crowd reaction: honest responses to things happening in a film, in particular a film like Star Wars, can be a lot of fun. Cheers are great moments like the Falcon reveal are fun to be there for. What drives me nuts is talking during the film, particularly during quieter moments, so the entire theater has to listen.
In the old EU, the Lars farm was considered pretty impressive and second only to the Darklighter farm ran by Mr. Huff Darklighter (yes, Huff). If I recall correctly there was some kind of feud between with regards to acquiring land/territory.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Wait, so the old EU retroactively made Luke a (relatively) rich kid?
Compared to the average junker on Tatooine, yes. I mean, he has his own car, his own jet, and whines about simple chores. How is he not a rich kid?
heliosRAzi
Banned
It looked like he was trying to put one on R2.
Yes, a great deal, but much of it is in how you framed the things that Luke does vs. what Rey does.
I've harped on this often in this thread and others, but Farmer Luke blocking laser beams while blind within moments of first trying (after the helmet is put on) is straight up crazy. I think that's far more impressive than any one thing Rey does in the film. He's 1) using a sword for the first time ever, 2) blocking point blank laser fire with said sword, 3) three times in a row 4) while blind. Rey's feats are comparatively small by comparison - it's just that her Force use is more distributed across more moments. Her actual pace of learning each is in par with Luke, who accomplishes both of the things Obi-wan puts to him, immediately.
As for the mind trick requiring advanced training, we see Obi-wan block laser fire with his saber, and use the mind trick in ANH. It's not established at any point that the mind trick requires extensive Force training, any more than anticipating where laser fire will land before it lands. Luke picked up on that within a minute of having the blinders put on him. Rey picks up on the mind trick, after Ren has used it on her twice and she's learned to push back on it. And like Luke with the lightsaber, she fails in her first few attempts. The scenes in which they learn these things are about the same length.
Flying: Luke's father is described by Obi-wan as being the best pilot in the galaxy (IIRC, paraphrasing). It's established that he was a Jedi, adept in the Force. Later, Luke boasts of making shots that are "impossible, even with a computer" repeatedly on his own. The implication being, he's an incredible pilot, like his father, and for the same reason; he just didn't know it. And later demonstrates this, with his use of the Force, unaided with a computer. After Rey flies the Falcon so well, Finn asks her how she did it. She replies, "I don't know. I've flow before but never off planet..." In the case of Rey, we see her flying, and then learn why she can do what she did. With Luke, we hear about it first - then see him do it. But the reason they can pull off both is the same.
I think an element that gets lost in these comparisons is the difference in how Luke and Rey learn; people tend to look for 1:1 comparisons and when Rey doesn't match what was in ANH, cry foul. (General observation here, from all the prior times this has rolled through this and the Mary Sue thread.) Luke sees Obi-wan do a few things, and he gives Luke a few words of coaching. That's all the training he gets to "use the Force" during the lightsaber training, and in the climax to ANH. Rey learns via the school of hard knocks: Kylo Ren working her over. Kylo inadvertently teaches her what she can do by example, right down to helping her know she can do so in the first place. What he doesn't show her, she draws from what Maz told her once she learns she can actually follow her counsel.
She knows she can use the mind trick, because Kylo was trying it on her. She knows she can pull the lightsaber to her because Kylo has frozen her, tossed her into a tree, and then began to pull it to himself. She knows to concentrate on the Force at the end because of what Maz tells her - just as Luke knew from what Obi-wan told her.
So while there are not 1:1 analogues to Luke in ANH, Rey has the same, if not more, opportunities to learn what she learns.
Escape Goat
Member
GAF never been on a farm confirmed.
Twilight Gap
Member
Personally find a genius with big character flaws more interesting to watch than an average joe without any.
Nostremitus
Member
He had a car, his own fighter jet, and his uncle dropped cash on two droids like it was nothing. Those aren't things poor people have or can do. They are wealthy by Tatooine standards in the film. I think a lot of people just see them living in the middle of the desert and equate that with poor.
The One and Done
Member
Lmao damn they went in.
30yearsofhurt
Member
I thought he was a struggling farmer which is why he couldn't afford to pay for help and needed Luke to stay on another season.
They got two secondhand droids from the Star Wars equivalent of used car salesmen. I don't think they're dirt-poor, but "wealthy" might be pushing it.
Nostremitus
Member
Or, he knew about Luke's parentage and didn't want him to go to the Imperial Academy.
Twilight Gap
Member
Nostremitus
Member
Wealth is subjective, though. By Tatooine standards they seem to be doing pretty well.
"Poor" by Tatooine standards outside of slavery is a bit hard to determine from the movies. The only example I can think of is Watto in Attack of the Clones. IIRC, he was homeless, so definitely below Luke's folks.
Something like a speeder is equivalent to a car and not indicative of being wealthy when you look at the rural US, but a T-16 is probably pricey.
Something like a speeder is equivalent to a car and not indicative of being wealthy when you look at the rural US, but a T-16 is probably pricey.
Look it's just one more season...
The music really makes the Falcon reveal, so good.
Twilight Gap
Member
i love the scene on the Falcon where Rey is fixing the leak and Finn and BB 8 are whispering. The body language is so good, especially the way Rey pops out to talk.
Think the prequels were missing that kind of organic interaction.
Think the prequels were missing that kind of organic interaction.
heliosRAzi
Banned
It is straight up crazy, but it is also a first step, as Obi Wan says. Which is reinforced in the PT when we see kids doing it. It's something basic, like stretches.
It's not established, but it can be inferred since we have only seen experienced Jedis do the JMT up until Rey does it. And I don't think he does the mind trick on her -- he reads her mind, but he doesn't get her to do things that he wants.
For flying, Rey is much better at it than Luke. Hands down. Her flying, weaving through the Star Destroyer and then helping Finn line up the shot, is more impressive than what Luke has done in the entire OT. Compared to her, Luke is terrible and he needed to be bailed out twice.
I don't think the Force had anything to do with his flying. With the shot, he definitely used the Force, but flying? Nah. It wasn't even an impossible shot; the guy who says it was just spouting hyperbole. If it was impossible, then the Rebel Alliance is pretty dumb... or desperate, but, even then, they could've just evacuated the planet.
I don't really fault them for that. For us, Luke is the only one we see really see grow into the Force. Of course we're going to look to him as a comparison. I didn't get a sense that Luke was proficient enough in the Force to do much. Some of us can divorce our expectations from that while others can't or won't. Rey did too much, too fast. And not in-universe fast, but in real-time.
SirMossyBloke
Member
I think the "droid, please" part was a little on the nose though. Like the scene where Solo is motioning Finn to look behind him.
Twilight Gap
Member
Think they just wanted Finn to come off that way, like when he's harassing Phasma and Han tells him to dial it down. I can see how it'd take someone out of the film though.
Escape Goat
Member
I wonder whats up with C3PO's red arm. Did they really just want to show that even 3PO changes over time just like everyone else?
prequel/interquel hook
just like a lot of stuff in this movie that intentionally and blatantly was hooks for other movies to use
Not really. Just there to show characters changing and set up a gag. Also probably a callback to his random silver leg.
While true - the kids were in a school. Luke picks it up in ~1-2 minutes.
I don't think this is a reasonable inference at all. You are having to add to the text of the films to arrive at that conclusion.
Flying, perhaps. Shooting? ANH has different things to say on that subject.
ANH provides a character telling Luke something is nigh impossible. Luke says he does it all the time. It's a pretty clear establishment that Luke is a good pilot/shot. But you are arguing that his words don't mean what he actually said, which downplays Lukes abilities and thus widens the gulf between Luke and Rey.
Your arguments are having to add interpretations to the films that the films themselves do not support, or argue for interpretations of simple statements to mean the oppose if what they mean. Sometimes a good shot is just a good shot.
Again, I you're simply wrong here and having to ignore what actually happens in ANH to arrive at this conclusion.
To be clear, Luke learns and pulls off the only things he attempts with the Force immediately in ANH: 1-2 minutes, in real-time, for what you agreed was "crazy". The "use the Force" moment at the end, with no training at all. That is the standard to which Rey should be compared. She does not learn faster than this. She learns just as fast as Luke.
Imperfected
Member
I'm pretty sure the only "wealthy" creatures on Tatooine are Hutts, and if anyone else became conspicuously well-to-do a Hutt would become slightly wealthier and slightly fatter in short order.
I think the fact Jedi are all "natural" pilots due to the Force is pretty reasonable. If they weren't, why would they even matter much? These are Star Wars, a dude with a laser sword who can't do anything useful in a spaceship fight is practically worthless in a military sense.
I mean, all you'd need to do to defeat the Jedi Council if they weren't some sort of natural ace pilots is bombard them from orbit while giggling maniacally. What are they going to do, hop on and say, "Fly me at them, I want to hit them with my sword"?
I think the fact Jedi are all "natural" pilots due to the Force is pretty reasonable. If they weren't, why would they even matter much? These are Star Wars, a dude with a laser sword who can't do anything useful in a spaceship fight is practically worthless in a military sense.
I mean, all you'd need to do to defeat the Jedi Council if they weren't some sort of natural ace pilots is bombard them from orbit while giggling maniacally. What are they going to do, hop on and say, "Fly me at them, I want to hit them with my sword"?
AgentP
Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
I think they were mostly missing organic anything.
Thanks for reminding me of the worst QTE in gaming ever. This was a total nightmare, and it completely ruined the game for me.
Imperfected
Member
Pretty sure The Force Unleashed is now non-canon, yeah?
Imperfected
Member
... you do understand what happened with the Starkiller there, right? The canon cannon one, not the non-canon man one.
heliosRAzi
Banned
I think it's reasonable and a lot of other people have come to that conclusion as well. You're just saying that it isn't an advanced technique based on one person doing it. And if that's how they want to play it now, then lets roll with it, but It's not hard to see why people have a problem with an inexperienced novice doing a JMT when all of the other times, we see an experienced Jedi do it.
She is definitely better at flying than Luke. I never said that Rey was better at shooting than Luke.
A no-name character. Yet, no one else makes that objection, I believe. There are some murmurs when they mention the size. And, again, if it was impossible, why even try it?
Because it's clear that he's being hyperbolic. Why make a plan that hinges on an impossible shot? It's obvious that it would be difficult,, but not outright impossible.
Sometimes there are unintended interpretations.Your arguments are having to add interpretations to the films that the films themselves do not support, or argue for interpretations of simple statements to mean the oppose if what they mean. Sometimes a good shot is just a good shot.
You're also forgetting the too much part. As it is, in terms of skills known, Rey is on ROTJ Luke's level.
She learns just as fast and does so much more. Perhaps the problem is that while Luke had to learn to "let it in," she really didn't. We never got to see Luke use his reflexes -- wait, we did with the blaster shots and he was crap at it until he learned to let the Force take him. Rey really didn't.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Austin Walker of Giant Bomb wrote an analysis on a few of the characters, and general thoughts about the narrative, and it's a pretty good read-
http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/off-the-clock-space-opera-millennials-and-their-gr/1100-5371/
http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/off-the-clock-space-opera-millennials-and-their-gr/1100-5371/
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Digital-Hero
Member
It used to be I believe, but now it's not.
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