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[The Last One]

Well, Luke failed to create the new jedi order, now he'll try again. He's not just hiding, he was looking for the first jedi temple, probably to obtain knowledge.

 

[Oidisco]

is this hinted at somewhere (perhaps the novels)? or some weird shipping thing? lol

It's kinda hinted at, mainly the scene where Poe tells Finn to keep the jacket. Just the way Poe looks at him. And Oscar Isacc said he played it like a romance.

 

[PerezDeCorcho]

-Rey was an absolute badass and at no point was she ever presented as a damsel in distress, unlike Leia who needed rescuing more than once. Rey was the one saving Finn in fact. The metal bikini nonsense also brought Leia's character down a great deal. Rey is a fantastic lead female character that my niece will be able to look up to when she's old enough to see The Force Awakens.

-Poe is suave, likeable and charming. Possibly the first LGBT character in Star Wars. He's a much better wing man to the lead male than Han, who's character was brought down by Harrison Ford's poor acting imo.

-Finn is fantastic as the male lead, with the whole defecting from the Stormstoopers and nervous fish out of water situation. I'd say he is equal to Luke as Luke was the best of the original trio.

-BB-8 is simply the GOAT. The voting thread (R2-D2 vs. BB-8) on GAF recently proved that.

1. She is TOO good. What development could possibly be left for her in the forthcoming films? She is already gifted with incredible powers and abilities. That is NOT an interesting protagonist, IMO.

2. Poe is a generic flyboy who wanted to go back to Jakku to recover BB8, yet shows up out of nowhere with no explanation midway through the story without completing his mission.

3. So, fantastic male leads = Yelling, shooting things, and being a coward? Plus, given he and the other stormtroopers were all basically brainwashed, why does he not hesitate to murder all of his former brothers in arms with his fucking lightsaber?

 

[LegendofLex]

It would have helped if I liked the new characters, but that's an entirely different argument. Fighting alongside Han Solo in a million setpieces doesn't make Han fantastic 'foil'.

He was really no more than good back-up in a fight. I don't recall Han Solo offering any particularly compelling bits of wisdom to the new characters.

I don't think you know what "foil" means.

Foils are set up as contrasts to other characters.

Darth Vader is a foil to Luke Skywalker; he shows what Luke may become if he goes down the path of the dark side. This is actually physically depicted in the films through the cave scene, where Luke beheads a visage of Vader, whose helmet explodes to reveal Luke's face. The climax of the OT saga shows Luke's rejection of the dark side as triumphing over Vader's evil - such that the evil "Vader" actually is extinguished and decides to follow Luke's example, reverting to his old self.

In the new film, Han is a foil to Kylo Ren. Han is depicted as running away from joining the fight against the First Order; Kylo Ren rejects his father and turns to evil, believing that his father is "weak and foolish." When the two finally confront one another, the setup is reversed; Han is depicted as self-sacrificing and sure of his decision to embrace his son and offer him a chance at redemption; Kylo is depicted as being torn apart about his evil path and unwilling to reconcile with his family.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Both of these cases are very powerful because they depict divisions and tension between fathers and sons, which are common literary devices that carry established weight and significance. The new trilogy is turning the conventions of the old one upside down, because the father is now the "good guy" and the son is the "bad guy," which sets up for more interesting decisions and character growth that diverge from what we saw in the OT while also mirroring it.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Here's the thesis of the OP, in basic sentences, stripped from all the circular, tautological reasoning "supporting" it:

1) This movie should have been about Han, Luke, and Leia
2) Han, Luke, and Leia should have had happy endings.

But this movie was never going to be about Han, Luke, and Leia, and this isn't even the first time they haven't gotten a happy ending. This "disrespects" them about as much as Empire Strikes Back disrespects Star Wars. As in - it doesn't. At all.

You want them to be "heroes," but the film wants them to be people, helping a new generation of heroes, who are, still, just people. That level of humanity is what made Star Wars so accessible in the first place, and its what's causing this film to connect with new audiences (not just Star Wars die-hards) in large numbers.

Suggesting that this film, one of the most reverential, respectful takes on Star Wars that could have been made, is somehow being "disrespectful," for the specious reasoning that fictional characters aren't as personally happy as you'd like them to be in a fictional universe that lives under the word "WARS" in its title, is kinda ridiculous, as is the idea this two-sentence objection needed to be a 1500+ post worthy of its own thread.

These aren't their movies anymore. They're there to support new characters on their own mythological action/adventure arc. They're not being "disrespected" by having lived lives between the last time you saw them and now, and their trials and tribulations offscreen that cause them to be where they are when we meet them aren't inherently disrespectful and callous.

They're characters. They're not being betrayed, nor are they being written to betray themselves. Because there's a healthy level of respect on the part of the writers, the actors, and the directors, to translate them (all of them) to the screen as best they can.

You not getting what you thought you wanted doesn't mean what you got was made badly. It just means you're not willing to get out of your own way long enough to fairly appraise what you did get.

I don't think you know what "foil" means.

You don't have to actually know what the words mean to use them. You just have to hope nobody else will call you on it.

 

[PerezDeCorcho]

I don't think you know what "foil" means.

Foils are set up as contrasts to other characters.

Darth Vader is a foil to Luke Skywalker; he shows what Luke may become if he goes down the path of the dark side. This is actually physically depicted in the films through the cave scene, where Luke beheads a visage of Vader, whose helmet explodes to reveal Luke's face. The climax of the OT saga shows Luke's rejection of the dark side as triumphing over Vader's evil - such that the evil "Vader" actually is extinguished and decides to follow Luke's example, reverting to his old self.

In the new film, Han is a foil to Kylo Ren. Han is depicted as running away from joining the fight against the First Order; Kylo Ren rejects his father and turns to evil, believing that his father is "weak and foolish." When the two finally confront one another, the setup is reversed; Han is depicted as self-sacrificing and sure of his decision to embrace his son and offer him a chance at redemption; Kylo is depicted as being torn apart about his evil path and unwilling to reconcile with his family.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Ok, but how is he a foil to the new heroes?

 

[ascii42]

1. She is TOO good. What development could possibly be left for her in the forthcoming films? She is already gifted with incredible powers and abilities. That is NOT an interesting protagonist, IMO.

Given the anger she was channeling when fighting Kylo Ren, one possibility is Dark Side temptation.

 

[Htown]

1. She is TOO good. What development could possibly be left for her in the forthcoming films? She is already gifted with incredible powers and abilities. That is NOT an interesting protagonist, IMO.

She's no more powerful than Luke is in the OT.

 

[tbd]

I just don't understand why they had to kill off Han. Was it too hard for him or them to write something intereting without having to rely on this shit? I loved my headcanon with everything being fine and dandy for everyone. He was easily one of the most charismatic if not the most charismatic guy in this whole universe.

Of course there are a million other things that bother me but this sticks out. Really don't feel like even considering the movie canon like this.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Has the sexism angle been played yet?

She's no more powerful than Luke is in the OT.

More powerful than he is at the end of ANH.

 

[PerezDeCorcho]

Given the anger she was channeling when fighting Kylo Ren, one possibility is Dark Side temptation.

So you're saying Rey is gonna attend an anger management course taught by Luke Skywalker in Episode VIII?

 

[Mortemis]

You're about three threads late.

This also isn't "lore"

You don't have to actually know what the words mean to use them. You just have to hope nobody else will call you on it.

Bobby's war against the misuse of "lore" is still going I see.

Keep fighting the good fight.

 

[obijkenobi]

I just don't understand why they had to kill off Han. Was it too hard for him or them to write something intereting without having to rely on this shit? I loved my headcanon with everything being fine and dandy for everyone. He was easily one of the most charismatic if not the most charismatic guy in this whole universe.

Of course there are a million other things that bother me but this sticks out. Really don't feel like even considering the movie canon like this.

His death frees up Leia to end up with Lando tho

 

[PerezDeCorcho]

She's no more powerful than Luke is in the OT.

...how powerful was Luke in Episode IV? Why are you comparing her development in one film to another character's development across THREE films?

 

[ryutaro's mama]

I find it funny how so many have been heralding this film as a return to form for Star Wars. It's "recaptured the magic" as many love to say.

But in what way has it recaptured the magic? Visually? Sure! Creatively? Not even close.

With this analysis, I do not intend to nitpick endlessly about the many plot conveniences that the film utilizes, its striking similarities to A New Hope, or the empty shells that are its lead characters. Rather, I'd like to scrutinize the way the film handles its universe. How it treats returning characters and ideas like Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Leia, The Force, etc.

Also: I will be analyzing everything that occurs within the context of Episode VII alone. Perhaps some of these oddities will be explained in future Episodes. But that doesn't change the initial impression it left some of us with. It doesn't get a free pass just because it's Star Wars.

----------

Luke Skywalker:
By the end of Return of the Jedi, Luke has redeemed his father. He's completed his training and has become the last Jedi Knight. He must pass on what he has learned and he must restore all that has been lost at the hands of the evil Empire. We're left to imagine a future in which Luke builds a new Jedi Order and restores peace and justice to the galaxy.

In The Force Awakens, we learn that Luke has failed to continue this legacy. The Empire has returned in the form of 'The First Order' and is now continuing their campaign of destruction and terror. In response to this, Luke has "vanished".

He's given up on the Jedi after Kylo Ren's turn to the Dark Side. Perhaps he believes that the Jedi are simply not worth the trouble? So, Luke isolates himself from the rest of the galaxy. In doing this, the Jedi would also fade away from existence.

Is this really the Luke Skywalker we remember? Would Obi-Wan Kenobi or Yoda condone Luke's actions? I would hope not.

In other words: "Fuck it all", said Luke Skywalker.

Han Solo:
Galactic criminal turned General. A legend in every sense of the word. Must I really go on about this beloved character?

Fast forward to The Force Awakens, and Han has taken ten steps backward. He goes back to doing what he's "good at". He has undone all of his development from the original films and returns to a world of scum and villainy because his son succumbed to the Dark Side. Rather than pursue his son, he instead pursues his coveted ship, the Millennium Falcon, along with his drinking pal, Chewbacca.

In other words: "Fuck it all", said Han Solo.

Leia Organa:
Leia has been fighting the same war for thirty years and has failed to stop the Empire from re-emerging into a position of ridiculous, unparalleled power. In fact, they may be more powerful than ever, given that their new Death Star -cough- Starkiller Base can destroy a whole bunch of planets at once with the power of the sun! How did a crumbling Empire acquire the resources for such a project without being noticed? How could Leia fail to address the issue of Starkiller Base before its completion? Is it merely incompetence on her part as a leader?

The galaxy is now in greater danger than ever before. What has Leia been doing for the past three decades? What was the point of the whole war? Were Luke, Han, and Leia to weak to stop the Empire?

In other words: "Pass the blow", said Princess Leia.

The Force:
The Force is nothing more than a superpower, according to The Force Awakens. It is now something that can be learned without the rigid discipline of Yoda or Obi-Wan. Now, if you believe hard enough, you can do anything with the Force!

Examples: Rey using Jedi mind tricks on a stormtrooper. Rey 'resisting' Kylo Ren. Rey going as far as to Force-pull a lightsaber into her grasp.

Luke's Lightsaber:
This is the most idiotic attempt by the film to 'respect' the original trilogy. In all of Star Wars' cinematic history, lightsabers were mere tools to a Jedi. An elegant weapon and nothing more. But now, lightsabers are mystical entities. They can "call to you", not unlike how the One Ring calls to Frodo in 'The Lord of the Rings'.

During the film's closing, Rey even goes as far as to 'return' the weapon to its owner, Luke. For reasons that I cannot comprehend, this scene has a ceremonial undertone, when the reality is that Luke never saw the weapon as anything more than, well, a weapon.

But, in favor of pleasing the fans with nostalgic imagery, the film defies all previously established logic and paints the weapon as something sacred.

So much so, that this is the ending shot of the film.

In a way, I believe this closing scene is symbolic of what the film ultimately is. It's a big, $200 million dollar misunderstanding of its source material. The film expects its audience to be too caught up in the fact that it's Luke's first lightsaber to realize just how absurd the whole scenario is. You see, to the majority of the audience, the lightsaber very much has become a sacred sort of object. And now, the audience's mindset is bleeding into the film itself.

Originality
Star Wars (1977) is an incredibly original film when you think of it in context. Give George Lucas all the shit you want, but the man was a visionary. He had big ideas. Even the Prequel trilogy was born out of some kind of creative spark. The Clone Wars is a great fictional setting, and fits into the Star Wars universe very well. The execution within the films, however, was questionable.

I will not go as far as to call The Force Awakens a worse film than The Phantom Menace. While that film was too distant from what made the originals so beloved, The Force Awakens is ultimately too derivative. It falls on the other extreme end of the spectrum. It's too safe. It exploits the nostalgic times we live in and gives people exactly what they want, but nothing more than that. It's the frankenstein monster of Star Wars films.

-----------

Nothing has changed. The Rebels are still fighting the Empire. The Jedi are still on the brink of extinction. Our heroes accomplished nothing.

The Empire doesn't have to strike back because the Empire never left.

What was the fucking point?

I can't say I disagree with much you have here. I knew there was a reason this one never completely sat right with me even though I found it extremely enjoyable in the moment.

There were so many ways to extend the story of the OT with a new threat instead of the Not Empire.

Starting our friends, the Core 3, from the OT with 3 big Ls kinda sat sour with me and I think you post has helped me realize why.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Bobby's war against the misuse of "lore"

Not so much a war as infrequent drone strikes.

 

[D1renegade]

I liked the movie, but yeah OP makes several good points.. The only thing I don't agree with is Han, him regressing to his TFA state is believable...

However, I can't stand how Luke has started down the path of bitchassness. You let crybaby punk ass KyHo drive you into hiding!? And now they're trying to make you a deadbeat father!? LOL. That's not the Luke I knew.

 

[Jelly Rajah]

She's no more powerful than Luke is in the OT.

She's way stronger dude

 

[enigmatic_alex44]

1. She is TOO good. What development could possibly be left for her in the forthcoming films? She is already gifted with incredible powers and abilities. That is NOT an interesting protagonist, IMO.

2. Poe is a generic flyboy who wanted to go back to Jakku to recover BB8, yet shows up out of nowhere with no explanation midway through the story without completing his mission.

3. So ,fantastic male leads = Yelling, shooting things, and being a coward? Plus, given he and the other stormtroopers were all basically brainwashed, why does he not hesitate to murder all of his former brothers in arms with his fucking lightsaber?

1. What? Nothing wrong with Rey being gifted. So was Anakin and no one complained. Rey has lots of interesting things in store. Maybe she'll be tempted by the dark side?

2. Poe loved his little buddy BB-8. That endears you to him much faster than grumpy old Han treating Chewie like crap. Plus Oscar Isaac is a WAY better actor than Harrison Ford.

3. What? Because he's a good person? The only reason he kills that one Stormtrooper with the lightsaber is for self defense. Why would he want to hunt down anyone? Being scared isn't the same as being a coward.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Has the sexism angle been played yet?



More powerful than he is at the end of ANH.

EDIT: Actually it definitely stands to reason why. Luke is a kid who lives with his parents and didn't have any training with a lightsaber, while Rey had to survive on her own for most of her childhood.

 

[Shaanyboi]

So you're saying Rey is gonna attend an anger management course taught by Luke Skywalker in Episode VIII?

Considering she has no context for the dangers of channeling the force in the wrong way, pretty much. Except now she knows how powerful she can be with the Dark Side, meaning the writers can play with putting her in a desperate enough situation to where she may need to rely on it.

 

[Principate]

She was familiar with the myths of the Jedi and also Kylo Ren just tried to mind-trick her moments earlier. After realizing she could use the force, she probably figured it out quick.

That's why Jedi's are trained from a young age to use the force because it's so dangerous, and majority of those trained from birth are completely mediocre. Yeah makes total sense.

It was essentially the typical video game fanfiction plot of ooh now your force user since we can't be bothered taking through the time and effort that is normally implied to make great use of these abilities to beat the bad guy we'll short cut all that and make you pretty overpowered now.

It was Kotor's original type of plot played completely straight. Kotor worked because even Bioware realised that type of storytelling in the game would be bullshit, and subverted expectations with the twist. Unless it happens (which in itself feels incredibly off given the timings of events) I'll continue to call her entire development poor and lazy

 

[Cth]

I'd like to imagine that Jakku is secretly Endor with all the wreckage, etc.

The giant pieces of the Death Star II having entered the atmosphere and serving as the meteor that killed the dinosaurs, etc turning the lush place into a desert wasteland.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

I just don't understand why they had to kill off Han.

Well they were following E4's story mold quite closely and there needed to be a mentor character dying in the death star prior to the heroes escaping. Han is played by Harrison Ford, who probably volunteered to get killed off so he didn't have to come back again later.

She's no more powerful than Luke is in the OT.

I would say she's got her swordsmanship about where luke ended the OT. Force powers tba, but certainly parsecs beyond what he had in E4.

 

[Measley]

Not really it crams a trilogies worth of development into one film, doesn't explain any of it and leaves you hoping the future films will explain what the hell just happened. I mean Rey's development in of a few hours to beat a dark side user whose been training for years was absurd. The incompetence required to follow the first order to pull off the shit is was doing, was prequel level, And even Snoke as a character came out from the left field

She defeated a dark side user that was mortally wounded and mentally conflicted. Kylo Ren wasn't at 100% when he fought Rey, and even then he almost beat her. Also we don't know Rey's power levels yet. She could be one of the most powerful force users that has lived. I mean why not? Did she do anything that is outside of the range of a raw force user?

And yeah, the bad guys are always incompetent in Star Wars. The only point when that was reversed was in the Prequels, where the good guys were incompetent, and people didn't like that too much.

 

[Mael]

Yeah I don't think the new film is perfect but it's definitely better than anything else presented by fans as a replacement.
It's good that we finally got some new characters that doesn't center around the OT like some fan fiction where it's all about the OT characters and nothing interesting is done.
This happily ever after doesn't even make sense for a character like Han Solo.
And if there's one thing pretty much everyone that had a hand in the EU agree on is that RotJ is not the end of the Empire nor should it be for obvious reasons.
Heck in the context of RotJ the battle of Yavin and the struggle with the Empire are not the center of the Universe or something.
It's like complaining that Darth Vader wasn't killed at the end of Star Wars or that we never saw the Empire home planet in the OT.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

I just don't understand why they had to kill off Han. Was it too hard for him or them to write something intereting without having to rely on this shit? I loved my headcanon with everything being fine and dandy for everyone. He was easily one of the most charismatic if not the most charismatic guy in thos whole universe.

I think him being killed was fine, but the impact of his death wasn't really there. The whole reveal of Ren being Han's son is handled in such an off-hand way, there's no building up of their relationship with each other. Han doesn't have much of an arc or a journey, and his death doesn't even get a real beat of sadness and reflection(which is a big reason why Obi-Wan's death feels important, and Aldarian and the other planets in TFA are like "uh who were they and why do we care"). Leia's tearful hug comes like 15 minutes later, and her hugging Rey instead of Chewie was a bizarre choice.

But then again Rey has everything handed to her in this movie, but that's a discussion for another thread.

 

[D1renegade]

Given the anger she was channeling when fighting Kylo Ren, one possibility is Dark Side temptation.

That's why Luke was pained when he saw her.. He knew he would have to strike her down because becoming so powerful so quickly is a sign of the dark side. She's like a force antichrist at this point. Luke knows he needs to stop her

 

[Snake]

Why is it inherently bad that Rey is stronger with the force at the end of TFA than Luke is at the end of ANH? Is TFA now supposed to copy every beat from ANH, bit by bit?

 

[btrboyev]

She's way stronger dude

Not really. She learned how to mind trick a storm trooper and use the force to grab a lightsaber. Luke fucking blew up the Death Star.

 

[Mortemis]

She's no more powerful than Luke is in the OT.

She's clearly better than Luke was around the same time, and honestly as good using the light saber than Luke was in ROTJ. ROTJ Luke is def. the better but Rey looks better using it in TFA than look did in ANH.

Why is it inherently bad that Rey is stronger with the force at the end of TFA than Luke is at the end of ANH? Is TFA now supposed to copy every beat from ANH, bit by bit?

Yeah, Rey is stronger but I don't really mind.

 

[Brakke]

I just don't understand why they had to kill off Han. Was it too hard for him or them to write something intereting without having to rely on this shit? I loved my headcanon with everything being fine and dandy for everyone. He was easily one of the most charismatic if not the most charismatic guy in this whole universe.

Of course there are a million other things that bother me but this sticks out. Really don't feel like even considering the movie canon like this.

I don't think Harrison Ford would've been interested in continuing on past one movie. He wanted Han to die in the OT.

 

[Principate]

She defeated a dark side user that was mortally wounded and mentally conflicted. Kylo Ren wasn't at 100% when he fought Rey, and even then he almost beat her. Also we don't know Rey's power levels yet. She could be one of the most powerful force users that has lived. I mean why not? Did she do anything that is outside of the range of a raw force user?

And yeah, the bad guys are always incompetent in Star Wars. The only point when that was reversed was in the Prequels, where the good guys were incompetent, and people didn't like that too much.

No you just making crap up. mortally wounded my ass, he almost certainly survived just fine even after their battle. The same bad guy that was kicking her ass and pushing her back until she communed with the force (i.e asspull) to win the fight.

 

[Htown]

...how powerful was Luke in Episode IV? Why are you comparing her development in one film to another character's development across THREE films?

More like 1 and a half or two films.

She's really no more powerful than Luke was pre-Dagobah. Is she is, it's not by much. Half the reason she beats Ren is that she already knows how to fight, and he had been shot in the side.

 

[Blader]

From the moment Episode VII was announced, ROTJ was immediately undone as the happily ever after ending. I don't know how or why people went into this movie expecting anything else.

Well they were following E4's story mold quite closely and there needed to be a mentor character dying in the death star prior to the heroes escaping. Han is played by Harrison Ford, who probably volunteered to get killed off so he didn't have to come back again later.

I don't think it has anything to do with aping Episode IV's structure and everything to do with the trope of killing off wise(r), old(er) character to establish stakes and motivate the new heroes.

The same trope that Obi-Wan in IV and Qui-Gon in I fed into too.

I think him being killed was fine, but the impact of his death wasn't really there. The whole reveal of Ren being Han's son is handled in such an off-hand way, there's no building up of their relationship with each other. Han doesn't have much of an arc or a journey, and his death doesn't even get a real beat of sadness and reflection(which is a big reason why Obi-Wan's death feels important, and Aldarian and the other planets in TFA are like "uh who were they and why do we care"). Leia's tearful hug comes like 15 minutes later, and her hugging Rey instead of Chewie was a bizarre choice.

But then again Rey has everything handed to her in this movie, but that's a discussion for another thread.

Obi-Wan doesn't either. Luke looks a bit depressed on the Falcon for about five seconds before he springs back into action, and stays that way for the rest of the film.

 

[Measley]

She's clearly better than Luke was around the same time, and honestly as good using the light saber than Luke was in ROTJ. ROTJ Luke is def. the better but Rey looks better using it in TFA than look did in ANH.

Shit, Vader would have wrecked Rey in ESB AND RotJ.

 

[btrboyev]

Well they were following E4's story mold quite closely and there needed to be a mentor character dying in the death star prior to the heroes escaping. Han is played by Harrison Ford, who probably volunteered to get killed off so he didn't have to come back again later.



I would say she's got her swordsmanship about where luke ended the OT. Force powers tba, but certainly parsecs beyond what he had in E4.

Watch that fight again and Rey is on the defensive with the light saber the entire time backing away. It wasnt until the very end she actually did something. Luke fought Darth Vader. Big difference there.

 

[Principate]

Why is it inherently bad that Rey is stronger with the force at the end of TFA than Luke is at the end of ANH? Is TFA now supposed to copy every beat from ANH, bit by bit?

It's bad that she with no jedi training whatsoever bested and has greater manipulation of the force than a dark side user that has been training for years. In any story, that would be poor storytelling.

 

[Htown]

The same bad guy that was kicking her ass and pushing her back until she communed with the force (i.e asspull) to win the fight.

If that's where you're at, I'm not sure how any Star Wars movie works for you.

 

[Measley]

No you just making crap up. mortally wounded my ass, he almost certainly survived just fine even after their battle.

You didn't see him bleeding profusely and hitting himself constantly?

The same bad guy that was kicking her ass and pushing her back until she communed with the force (i.e asspull) to win the fight.

Yeah like I said, he ALMOST beat her. But again, was there anything that Rey did in that film that is outside the realm of a Force user's ability? Yoda talked about that shit back in ESB, but Luke was too reckless to listen to him.

The movie is called "The Force Awakens" for a reason bro.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Shit, Vader would have wrecked Rey in ESB AND RotJ.

ESB Vader was toying with everyone. Han, Luke, bridge commanders.

Everyone was getting that ass whooping.

 

[btrboyev]

It's bad that she with no jedi training whatsoever bested and has greater manipulation of the force than a dark side user that has been training for years. In any story, that would be poor storytelling.

Dude was injured. Why is that hard for someone to comprehend? He got shot with a bowcaster, which is no joke.

 

[LegendofLex]

She's way stronger dude

There's literally no way to definitively measure this. However:

- Rey actually has a harder time piloting her ship during her first (and only) real ship combat situation (so far) than Luke ever does at any point in Star Wars. Both of them pull off exactly one outrageous trick to win (Luke nailing the shot w/o a targeting computer; Rey putting the Falcon into a nosedive so Finn can make the final shot).
- Luke never attempts to use a mind trick during ANH or ESB, but we don't know if he could have if he'd tried. However, he does successfully deflect blaster fire on his second try, while unable to see.
- Likewise, Rey never attempts to deflect blaster fire, so we don't know how she'd fare if she tried. But it takes her three attempts to successfully pull off a mind trick, more tries than it took Luke to deflect the remote.
- Luke never demonstrates mind-reading abilities, but then Rey only is able to exhibit them by pushing back against Kylo, and it's strongly suggested that the process is open to being two-way by design ("It's okay, I feel it, too").
- Luke loses his first lightsaber duel against the most powerful Sith Lord in the known canon, while Rey wins hers against a physically, mentally, and symbolically wounded Kylo before he's completed his training. Again, not an even point of comparison.

We should definitely consider the symbolic implications of the endings of both characters' first lightsaber duels:

- Luke is wounded (physically, but of course also emotionally and symbolically, with the wound being an outward sign of his internal pain) in his fight against Vader, and his defeat represents that he's at a phase of his development where he's still broken (hence literally losing a limb).

- Rey is empowered by her newfound communion with the Force. Her victory over Kylo is a kind of coming of age into the Force for her; whereas Luke's fight is about establishing that he's not yet ready, Rey's fight is precisely about her becoming ready to accept the Force. And the conclusion of the duel, with her standing victorious over the defeated Kylo as a chasm erupts between them (with her ending up on the literal right side of the frame) is also meant to communicate to us that she's on the right side of the Force and he is not.

The two fights are doing very different things from a narrative/symbolic standpoint.

 

[jett]

I agree 100% with what you said. Yes, TFA pretty much erased what the OT had achieved, and did so in a way that doesn't feel satisfying or earned. At all. Not to me, anyway.

The Force Awakens is cinematic fan-fiction.

 

[DrForester]

I'll admit, there's a lot of bad things to infer about Luke right now.


He runs out when the Galaxy needs him most. He must meditate. He had to have known the First Order was about to destroy an entire system. Had to know Han was about to die. He comes off as a complete coward. I expect the later films to address these things though.

 

[Blader]

I just don't understand why they had to kill off Han. Was it too hard for him or them to write something intereting without having to rely on this shit? I loved my headcanon with everything being fine and dandy for everyone. He was easily one of the most charismatic if not the most charismatic guy in this whole universe.

Of course there are a million other things that bother me but this sticks out. Really don't feel like even considering the movie canon like this.

For all the reasons that killing off a lead character propels the story, plus the fact that Han is the least important plot-wise of the original three. Luke represents the mystical/Force side of the story, Leia represents the political/military side, but Han's just off on his own. He doesn't have ties into a bigger facet of the story -- and in death, he plays a big part into at least Ren's arc, if not Rey and Finn's too.

 

[RedAssedApe]

comparing power levels as depicted on screen between three different movie "eras" really doesn't work here.

there's something special about rey. we just don't know what yet. from some article i read about the novels:

One of the fantastic things about the novel is that we get the internal details that could never have made it to film. When Ren uses the Force to unlock her mind, he seems to accidentally also unlock her Force potential, breaking some sort of barrier within her mind.

This sounds particularly like Rey’s mind may have been altered by another Jedi to forget her pre-Jakku life…

force awakened and all. but yeah maybe another skywalker or something else. we'll see. maybe she's a magical being filled with an insane midiclorian count exceeding even that of anakin. jjs homage to episode 1

 

[Principate]

If that's where you're at, I'm not sure how any Star Wars movie works for you.

It's funny you mentioned that. Qui-gon Gin communed in with the force in the middle of the fight with Darth Maul. That was a Jedi Master, you know what happened. he died. Let that sink in, because even Maul allowing that to happen at all was pretty bullshit.

 

[A Link to the Past]

No you just making crap up. mortally wounded my ass, he almost certainly survived just fine even after their battle. The same bad guy that was kicking her ass and pushing her back until she communed with the force (i.e asspull) to win the fight.

Weakened by multiple wounds (including one wound which earlier proved to be one of the most powerful handheld blasters we see in the film universe). Also, Kylo Ren is basically a Padawan. Maul was the equivalent of a Jedi Master, and evidently, a more powerful one than Qui-Gon Jinn.

 

[Mortemis]

Shit, Vader would have wrecked Rey in ESB AND RotJ.

Well, yeah. You think Vader vs Luke in ESB was an even fight or something?

I'm not saying Rey is stronger than Luke at the end of ESB, but that she's the better melee fighter.