Star Wars VII doesn't respect the original trilogy (spoilers)

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Vader literally killed his own men for failing. Even Konami knew to put disappointing employees on janitorial work instead of killing them.

What will you say if Kylo starts murdering fools in the next one to show how OP he is?

Will you still believe they aren't basically the same dude with similar through line? He already murdered Younglings like his grandfather. He even has a nifty face scar now so he gets to go all evil nao.
 
What will you say if Kylo starts murdering fools in the next one to show how OP he is?

Will you still believe they aren't basically the same dude with similar through line? He already murdered Younglings like his grandfather. He even has a nifty face scar now so he gets to go all evil nao.

Then I suppose I'd point it out. Similarly, if he shrinks, shrivels, and turns green, I will happily agree that he's just a ripoff of Yoda.
 
This wrap it up very nicely. I would add that now, they are like a new "Anakin" -Rey's. She has to be related to someone very strong in the force. They are theories (fans) that say that the accent of Rey's answer the question about his parents and there is a new "maverick" or two, Finn and Poe. My guess, Finn would be the new Han Solo and Poe will be the leader of the rebelion when Leia dies in ep VIII. Yes she is going to die, the same that Luke.

The only thing that drag me out is how shitty a Jedi Luke is. He was the padawan of Yoda and he could not defeat an angry teenager (Ben) and Snooke? So he ran off like a cry baby for solitude and confort... how he gets there? in a X-Wing? Why he left R2-D2? goddamit J.J. So many questions, so little answers. Mark my words, ep. VIII will star ..."A decade ago the First Order was defeated by the rebellion but now...."

We don't know the circumstances of the destruction of the new Jedi Order. For all we know Luke was stuck in the toilet while it happened.

I also wonder why people are surprised that Luke would go into exile. His attempt at reviving the Jedi resulted in his nephew turning to the dark side and dozens of innocents being slaughtered. That's a good point to just say "I've done more harm than good here. Maybe I should just fuck off."
 
Not sure if this was posted before, but lightsabers are more than just tools for the Jedi. Each lightsaber is unique in the sense that they are built by the Jedi wielding it. It takes a long time for a Jedi to create their first lightsaber, and one of the main components of it, the crystal, is imbued with the force itself (iirc, someone correct me if I'm wrong). If it's one criticism that should be made of Luke's lightsaber in the film, then we should be questioning why it was the blue one that was lost in Cloud City as opposed to the green one at the end of Return of the Jedi.
 
You know I'm right, brother. It's like saying a First Order Stormtrooper =/= Empire Stormtrooper =/= Clone Trooper.

Technically, you'd be right but c'mon buddy... :)

If we're talking skindeep, then there's definitely a connection. Looking at how they're done, they're all done in different ways. OT had enemy mooks, PT had ally mooks. For the ST, we're seeing how Stormtroopers become Stormtroopers (I don't know if this is a First Order thing or an Empire thing). We see Stormtroopers who are entirely loyal to the First Order, and we see Finn having conflicts with everything he learned growing up into being a Stormtrooper.

That said, a better argument than "you know I'm right" would be "anything else"

Not sure if this was posted before, but lightsabers are more than just tools for the Jedi. Each lightsaber is unique in the sense that they are built by the Jedi wielding it. It takes a long time for a Jedi to create their first lightsaber, and one of the main components of it, the crystal, is imbued with the force itself (iirc, someone correct me if I'm wrong). If it's one criticism that should be made of Luke's lightsaber in the film, then we should be questioning why it was the blue one that was lost in Cloud City as opposed to the green one at the end of Return of the Jedi.

Couldn't Luke have just been like, "Well now that that's over, I'm gonna go to Bespin to see if I can't find my Lighsaber."
 
Yeah, you can be critical of a product and still enjoy it. Praise doesn't necessarily mean quality. Like, it's a good film and all but it does have flaws.

Yeah got you but this started with you saying that it's going to forever be remembered as "the movie that was too much like Star Wars." That rarely happens with movies people like, people will look back and remember the stuff that they liked about it: character moments and things like that. Saying that people will remember it as X means that it didn't elevate itself enough to be memorable beyond the similarity.

As was pointed out, Jedi had a similar "flaw" but because it was a good movie in its own right people overlook that. TFA will be the same.
 
We don't know the circumstances of the destruction of the new Jedi Order. For all we know Luke was stuck in the toilet while it happened.

I also wonder why people are surprised that Luke would go into exile. His attempt at reviving the Jedi resulted in his nephew turning to the dark side and dozens of innocents being slaughtered. That's a good point to just say "I've done more harm than good here. Maybe I should just fuck off."

I don't know man, but he IS or WAS the ONE. People would expect that he make something better that "you know what, this went sour pretty fast and because of me I guess, so I off bitches... let the galaxy die, who cares right? The force is everything"
 
Yeah got you but this started with you saying that it's going to forever be remembered as "the movie that was too much like Star Wars." That rarely happens with movies people like, people will look back and remember the stuff that they liked about it: character moments and things like that. Saying that people will remember it as X means that it didn't elevate itself enough to be memorable beyond the similarity.

As was pointed out, Jedi had a similar "flaw" but because it was a good movie in its own right people overlook that. TFA will be the same.

Your argument is "that doesn't happen because people like the movie". That's not a strong argument. Until it's never mentioned again then I'll believe you.
 
If we're talking skindeep, then there's definitely a connection. Looking at how they're done, they're all done in different ways. OT had enemy mooks, PT had ally mooks. For the ST, we're seeing how Stormtroopers become Stormtroopers (I don't know if this is a First Order thing or an Empire thing). We see Stormtroopers who are entirely loyal to the First Order, and we see Finn having conflicts with everything he learned growing up into being a Stormtrooper.

That said, a better argument than "you know I'm right" would be "anything else"

But at the end of the day, Finn aside, they're still troopers dressed in white, whose purpose is to be grunts for whoever commands them, right? (their alliance is fluid; this is true with the PT and Order 66).

Yeah, you know I'm right. :)
 
Vader is demonstrated to show nothing but contempt for anyone who even annoys him. At no point does Kylo Ren resort to killing someone for so petty a reason. That in and of itself is a distinct reason. We even see an opportunity where he could have killed someone, and he did not.
Here, we agree; Kylo Ren never had a "white sheep/golden boy" phase where he was palling around with Jedi and feeding pears to his girlfriend or whatever.

Instead he's all like

enhanced-23598-1452190013-1.png
 
The new Death Star/Starkiller base design being a bit reducitve and lazy is totally forgivable because they gave us the most clever design for a robot in Star Wars yet.
One film and BB-8 has already taken center stage as a Star Wars icon.

j7WXnzN.gif

I would wait a few decades before declaring things from the film, let alone the film itself, an icon.
 
I don't know man, but he IS or WAS the ONE. People would expect that he make something better that "you know what, this went sour pretty fast and because of me I guess, so I off bitches... let the galaxy die, who cares right? The force is everything"

It's not like it happened fast though. He helped beat the Empire and they just reformed into the First order and his Jedi Order got destroyed. Everything he'd work toward in life all went to shit and made all the sacrifice, probably, seem pointless. Even his dad getting himself killed was kind of pointless after Ben snapped. It could drive a man into seclusion.
 
You would actually take a bet you would lose?

Want to play Poker tomorrow night? $50 buy in, $20 bounty. I could use another sweep.

Unless you're taking your use of "never" as literal I don't think I would lose. People don't really talk a lot about Jedis similarities to ANH UNLESS they are trying to argue that Empire is the better movie. Then they trot that shit out to try to gain points but I wouldn't consider that criticism so much as grasping for any possible straw.
 
Luke's Lightsaber:
This is the most idiotic attempt by the film to 'respect' the original trilogy. In all of Star Wars' cinematic history, lightsabers were mere tools to a Jedi. An elegant weapon and nothing more. But now, lightsabers are mystical entities. They can "call to you", not unlike how the One Ring calls to Frodo in 'The Lord of the Rings'.

During the film's closing, Rey even goes as far as to 'return' the weapon to its owner, Luke. For reasons that I cannot comprehend, this scene has a ceremonial undertone, when the reality is that Luke never saw the weapon as anything more than, well, a weapon.

But, in favor of pleasing the fans with nostalgic imagery, the film defies all previously established logic and paints the weapon as something sacred.

So much so, that this is the ending shot of the film.

Isn't Luke's first lightsaber the same one that Anakin used? I think he saw it as a memento of his father and more than "Just a weapon." And once it was picked up Rey, I'm sure there's some in-fiction bullshit that could be made up about it having some residual Force in it or something from being used by two high-level force-users, possibly activating because Rey may be related to Luke so their force power is similar or some bullshit.
 
Nothing I typed is disputable. They are essentially the same dude, with the same end game, dressed in the same color, carrying the same color laser sword.

Both wanted to be the GOAT.

Their personality disposition is slightly different (but his grandfather was pretty emo too), sure but in the end, they are the same guy, different movie.

Also, they both throw temper tantrums: With Ren, he destroys consoles. With Vader it's Tusken villagers and choking out bridge commanders.

But sure, he's new. :)

Well, it is his grandfather, plus there's a point where Leia says how much Vader is in Ren.

That it's a similar character isn't a problem for me.

What I don't like is that the relationship between Leia, Han and Ren just seems kind of bullshit and not convincing or compelling at all. That in turn hurts their individual characters. Not to mention Carrie Fischer forgot how to act and Harrison Ford's face doesn't move when he talks.
 
But at the end of the day, Finn aside, they're still troopers dressed in white, whose purpose is to be grunts for whoever commands them, right? (their alliance is fluid; this is true with the PT and Order 66).

Yeah, you know I'm right. :)

Their alliance is not fluid. They were clones programmed to eventually betray the Jedi.

Also, Phasma ain't dressed in white. I guess that means that you are wrong.
 
I find it funny how so many have been heralding this film as a return to form for Star Wars. It's "recaptured the magic" as many love to say.

But in what way has it recaptured the magic? Visually? Sure! Creatively? Not even close.

With this analysis, I do not intend to nitpick endlessly about the many plot conveniences that the film utilizes, its striking similarities to A New Hope, or the empty shells that are its lead characters. Rather, I'd like to scrutinize the way the film handles its universe. How it treats returning characters and ideas like Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Leia, The Force, etc.

Also: I will be analyzing everything that occurs within the context of Episode VII alone. Perhaps some of these oddities will be explained in future Episodes. But that doesn't change the initial impression it left some of us with. It doesn't get a free pass just because it's Star Wars.

----------

Luke Skywalker:
By the end of Return of the Jedi, Luke has redeemed his father. He's completed his training and has become the last Jedi Knight. He must pass on what he has learned and he must restore all that has been lost at the hands of the evil Empire. We're left to imagine a future in which Luke builds a new Jedi Order and restores peace and justice to the galaxy.

In The Force Awakens, we learn that Luke has failed to continue this legacy. The Empire has returned in the form of 'The First Order' and is now continuing their campaign of destruction and terror. In response to this, Luke has "vanished".

He's given up on the Jedi after Kylo Ren's turn to the Dark Side. Perhaps he believes that the Jedi are simply not worth the trouble? So, Luke isolates himself from the rest of the galaxy. In doing this, the Jedi would also fade away from existence.

Is this really the Luke Skywalker we remember? Would Obi-Wan Kenobi or Yoda condone Luke's actions? I would hope not.

In other words: "Fuck it all", said Luke Skywalker.

Han Solo:
Galactic criminal turned General. A legend in every sense of the word. Must I really go on about this beloved character?

Fast forward to The Force Awakens, and Han has taken ten steps backward. He goes back to doing what he's "good at". He has undone all of his development from the original films and returns to a world of scum and villainy because his son succumbed to the Dark Side. Rather than pursue his son, he instead pursues his coveted ship, the Millennium Falcon, along with his drinking pal, Chewbacca.

In other words: "Fuck it all", said Han Solo.

Leia Organa:
Leia has been fighting the same war for thirty years and has failed to stop the Empire from re-emerging into a position of ridiculous, unparalleled power. In fact, they may be more powerful than ever, given that their new Death Star -cough- Starkiller Base can destroy a whole bunch of planets at once with the power of the sun! How did a crumbling Empire acquire the resources for such a project without being noticed? How could Leia fail to address the issue of Starkiller Base before its completion? Is it merely incompetence on her part as a leader?

The galaxy is now in greater danger than ever before. What has Leia been doing for the past three decades? What was the point of the whole war? Were Luke, Han, and Leia to weak to stop the Empire?

In other words: "Pass the blow", said Princess Leia.

The Force:
The Force is nothing more than a superpower, according to The Force Awakens. It is now something that can be learned without the rigid discipline of Yoda or Obi-Wan. Now, if you believe hard enough, you can do anything with the Force!

Examples: Rey using Jedi mind tricks on a stormtrooper. Rey 'resisting' Kylo Ren. Rey going as far as to Force-pull a lightsaber into her grasp.

Luke's Lightsaber:
This is the most idiotic attempt by the film to 'respect' the original trilogy. In all of Star Wars' cinematic history, lightsabers were mere tools to a Jedi. An elegant weapon and nothing more. But now, lightsabers are mystical entities. They can "call to you", not unlike how the One Ring calls to Frodo in 'The Lord of the Rings'.

During the film's closing, Rey even goes as far as to 'return' the weapon to its owner, Luke. For reasons that I cannot comprehend, this scene has a ceremonial undertone, when the reality is that Luke never saw the weapon as anything more than, well, a weapon.

But, in favor of pleasing the fans with nostalgic imagery, the film defies all previously established logic and paints the weapon as something sacred.

So much so, that this is the ending shot of the film.

In a way, I believe this closing scene is symbolic of what the film ultimately is. It's a big, $200 million dollar misunderstanding of its source material. The film expects its audience to be too caught up in the fact that it's Luke's first lightsaber to realize just how absurd the whole scenario is. You see, to the majority of the audience, the lightsaber very much has become a sacred sort of object. And now, the audience's mindset is bleeding into the film itself.

Originality
Star Wars (1977) is an incredibly original film when you think of it in context. Give George Lucas all the shit you want, but the man was a visionary. He had big ideas. Even the Prequel trilogy was born out of some kind of creative spark. The Clone Wars is a great fictional setting, and fits into the Star Wars universe very well. The execution within the films, however, was questionable.

I will not go as far as to call The Force Awakens a worse film than The Phantom Menace. While that film was too distant from what made the originals so beloved, The Force Awakens is ultimately too derivative. It falls on the other extreme end of the spectrum. It's too safe. It exploits the nostalgic times we live in and gives people exactly what they want, but nothing more than that. It's the frankenstein monster of Star Wars films.

-----------

Nothing has changed. The Rebels are still fighting the Empire. The Jedi are still on the brink of extinction. Our heroes accomplished nothing.

The Empire doesn't have to strike back because the Empire never left.

What was the fucking point?

giphy.gif
 
I read your post and my thought was "he's listing all the reasons that made episode 7 so awesome"

We spent, what, 5-6 years with these characters in the OT?

In the timeline of ep 7, it's been THIRTY FOUR YEARS. A lifetime we haven't had witness too happened to these people, and now we get to know them all over again.

Subverting expectations and creating mystery is exactly why ep 7 was so brilliantly structured. The world is so big now, they can go backwards or forwards from anywhere in the timeline, with plenty of mysterious to dive into, and this structure gives us as viewers 2 years to fill in the gaps and have discussions till the next movie starts to address them.

Well played JJ
 
I find it funny how so many have been heralding this film as a return to form for Star Wars. It's "recaptured the magic" as many love to say.

But in what way has it recaptured the magic? Visually? Sure! Creatively? Not even close.

I read the OP's post, it's a decent argument and I can see his points, although I disagree somewhat with a few of them. Even still though, I loved TFA and I personally feel that it DID recapture the magic of the OT rather successfully. Certainly much, MUCH more than the PT ever did.

There is an argument to be made regarding Han's, Leia's, and even Luke's character developments over the timespan in between RotJ and TFA, and how the new film rolls back a lot of what the cast fought for in the OT. But that is all story and script. What makes TFA feel like a Star Wars film is the direction and photography, the new characters and their development via dialogue and action scenes (versus exposition while standing or walking down hallways in the PT), the long sweeping shots of vast expanses and awesome landscapes. The real and tangible robots and spaceships, droids and ships that have that weathered look to them rather than smooth shiny show room liquid like looks. Action scenes that have emotion and weight to them, fights that aren't choreographed like ballet dances or gymnastic acts but more like swashbuckling fights of old. Space battles that feel more like WWII airplane battles and less like a child threw all of his toys into the air and called it a battle. Characters have personal development in TFA just like the OT, they aren't simply moving through a storyboard while hitting key talking points like in the PT.

Star Wars films, any of the seven films, are not "great" cinema. They are adventure movies in space, and if you look at them with a microscope the cracks in them became all too obvious. But the tone and feel of the OT is vastly different than the PT, it's like they were made by two entirely different people and you don't need a microscope to see that.

You ask what the point of TFA was? The point was to recapture the feel of Star Wars for a generation of fans who had lost it, and for myself (and I'd wager a lot of other fans) it has done exactly that. Was the movie perfect? Nope. Did the story have holes in it? For sure. But did it have the FEEL of a Star Wars film? It sure did for me. Sorry it didn't for you, but then maybe you are expecting too much and had unobtainable expectations for it.
 
The Republic getting wiped out by the Starkiller was the Star Wars equivalent of Samus losing all of her upgrades at the beginning of a new Metroid game. It's kinda necessary but also kinda cheap.
 
I read the OP's post, it's a decent argument and I can see his points, although I disagree somewhat with a few of them. Even still though, I loved TFA and I personally feel that it DID recapture the magic of the OT rather successfully. Certainly much, MUCH more than the PT ever did.

There is an argument to be made regarding Han's, Leia's, and even Luke's character developments over the timespan in between RotJ and TFA, and how the new film rolls back a lot of what the cast fought for in the OT. But that is all story and script. What makes TFA feel like a Star Wars film is the direction and photography, the new characters and their development via dialogue and action scenes (versus exposition while standing or walking down hallways in the PT), the long sweeping shots of vast expanses and awesome landscapes. The real and tangible robots and spaceships, droids and ships that have that weathered look to them rather than smooth shiny show room liquid like looks. Action scenes that have emotion and weight to them, fights that aren't choreographed like ballet dances or gymnastic acts but more like swashbuckling fights of old. Space battles that feel more like WWII airplane battles and less like a child threw all of his toys into the air and called it a battle. Characters have personal development in TFA just like the OT, they aren't simply moving through a storyboard while hitting key talking points like in the PT.

Star Wars films, any of the seven films, are not "great" cinema. They are adventure movies in space, and if you look at them with a microscope the cracks in them became all too obvious. But the tone and feel of the OT is vastly different than the PT, it's like they were made by two entirely different people and you don't need a microscope to see that.

You ask what the point of TFA was? The point was to recapture the feel of Star Wars for a generation of fans who had lost it, and for myself (and I'd wager a lot of other fans) it has done exactly that. Was the movie perfect? Nope. Did the story have holes in it? For sure. But did it have the FEEL of a Star Wars film? It sure did for me. Sorry it didn't for you, but then maybe you are expecting too much and had unobtainable expectations for it.

Pretty much. Overall it was very enjoyable and I have no regrets in seeing it. It just wasn't exactly everything that I was hoping for.

and anyone going to deep into either side of defending or critiquing needs a visit from Triumph the insult dog.
 
It's to the OT what Last Crusade was to Raiders. You can either enjoy the more humurous and bigger iteration of the beloved blockbuster that was needed after certain missteps or be nitpickey about it, while everyone saw these ,,flaws" for themselves already - pretty sure the consensus is ,,good, but not spectacular".
Anyway, the empire not being dead/having ,,successors" actually only makes sense, it happened often enough through history. Not sure what's bad about force being the force aka magic and now additional mystery through the lightsaber. There's never been rules until lolmedichloranisans - see vader vision in Empire - it's a mysterious magic power and it also fits that its correlating with undertones of fate.
 
I find it funny how so many have been heralding this film as a return to form for Star Wars. It's "recaptured the magic" as many love to say.

But in what way has it recaptured the magic? Visually? Sure! Creatively? Not even close.

With this analysis, I do not intend to nitpick endlessly about the many plot conveniences that the film utilizes, its striking similarities to A New Hope, or the empty shells that are its lead characters. Rather, I'd like to scrutinize the way the film handles its universe. How it treats returning characters and ideas like Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Leia, The Force, etc.

Also: I will be analyzing everything that occurs within the context of Episode VII alone. Perhaps some of these oddities will be explained in future Episodes. But that doesn't change the initial impression it left some of us with. It doesn't get a free pass just because it's Star Wars.

----------

Luke Skywalker:
By the end of Return of the Jedi, Luke has redeemed his father. He's completed his training and has become the last Jedi Knight. He must pass on what he has learned and he must restore all that has been lost at the hands of the evil Empire. We're left to imagine a future in which Luke builds a new Jedi Order and restores peace and justice to the galaxy.

In The Force Awakens, we learn that Luke has failed to continue this legacy. The Empire has returned in the form of 'The First Order' and is now continuing their campaign of destruction and terror. In response to this, Luke has "vanished".

He's given up on the Jedi after Kylo Ren's turn to the Dark Side. Perhaps he believes that the Jedi are simply not worth the trouble? So, Luke isolates himself from the rest of the galaxy. In doing this, the Jedi would also fade away from existence.

Is this really the Luke Skywalker we remember? Would Obi-Wan Kenobi or Yoda condone Luke's actions? I would hope not.

In other words: "Fuck it all", said Luke Skywalker.

Han Solo:
Galactic criminal turned General. A legend in every sense of the word. Must I really go on about this beloved character?

Fast forward to The Force Awakens, and Han has taken ten steps backward. He goes back to doing what he's "good at". He has undone all of his development from the original films and returns to a world of scum and villainy because his son succumbed to the Dark Side. Rather than pursue his son, he instead pursues his coveted ship, the Millennium Falcon, along with his drinking pal, Chewbacca.

In other words: "Fuck it all", said Han Solo.

Leia Organa:
Leia has been fighting the same war for thirty years and has failed to stop the Empire from re-emerging into a position of ridiculous, unparalleled power. In fact, they may be more powerful than ever, given that their new Death Star -cough- Starkiller Base can destroy a whole bunch of planets at once with the power of the sun! How did a crumbling Empire acquire the resources for such a project without being noticed? How could Leia fail to address the issue of Starkiller Base before its completion? Is it merely incompetence on her part as a leader?

The galaxy is now in greater danger than ever before. What has Leia been doing for the past three decades? What was the point of the whole war? Were Luke, Han, and Leia to weak to stop the Empire?

In other words: "Pass the blow", said Princess Leia.

The Force:
The Force is nothing more than a superpower, according to The Force Awakens. It is now something that can be learned without the rigid discipline of Yoda or Obi-Wan. Now, if you believe hard enough, you can do anything with the Force!

Examples: Rey using Jedi mind tricks on a stormtrooper. Rey 'resisting' Kylo Ren. Rey going as far as to Force-pull a lightsaber into her grasp.

Luke's Lightsaber:
This is the most idiotic attempt by the film to 'respect' the original trilogy. In all of Star Wars' cinematic history, lightsabers were mere tools to a Jedi. An elegant weapon and nothing more. But now, lightsabers are mystical entities. They can "call to you", not unlike how the One Ring calls to Frodo in 'The Lord of the Rings'.

During the film's closing, Rey even goes as far as to 'return' the weapon to its owner, Luke. For reasons that I cannot comprehend, this scene has a ceremonial undertone, when the reality is that Luke never saw the weapon as anything more than, well, a weapon.

But, in favor of pleasing the fans with nostalgic imagery, the film defies all previously established logic and paints the weapon as something sacred.

So much so, that this is the ending shot of the film.

In a way, I believe this closing scene is symbolic of what the film ultimately is. It's a big, $200 million dollar misunderstanding of its source material. The film expects its audience to be too caught up in the fact that it's Luke's first lightsaber to realize just how absurd the whole scenario is. You see, to the majority of the audience, the lightsaber very much has become a sacred sort of object. And now, the audience's mindset is bleeding into the film itself.

Originality
Star Wars (1977) is an incredibly original film when you think of it in context. Give George Lucas all the shit you want, but the man was a visionary. He had big ideas. Even the Prequel trilogy was born out of some kind of creative spark. The Clone Wars is a great fictional setting, and fits into the Star Wars universe very well. The execution within the films, however, was questionable.

I will not go as far as to call The Force Awakens a worse film than The Phantom Menace. While that film was too distant from what made the originals so beloved, The Force Awakens is ultimately too derivative. It falls on the other extreme end of the spectrum. It's too safe. It exploits the nostalgic times we live in and gives people exactly what they want, but nothing more than that. It's the frankenstein monster of Star Wars films.

-----------

Nothing has changed. The Rebels are still fighting the Empire. The Jedi are still on the brink of extinction. Our heroes accomplished nothing.

The Empire doesn't have to strike back because the Empire never left.

What was the fucking point?

YCK8EDZ.gif



wow there vaquero, lets keep it fresh till the end. Your opinions are "solid", but that is just bananas... The prequels were, are and are going to be dog poop in terms of everything. The only good thing that the prequels left were: natalie portman hot body in the white dress, obi-wan and the clone wars (tv serie)
 
You could make an argument that the prequel trilogy doesn't really respect the original trilogy either as it created a lot on new contractions with the original story.
 
Considering the movie had to revive the appeal of the original trilogy and wash out the bad taste of the prequels, be a good sequel for long time fans, and ALSO use the original cast as a jumping off point to tell a new story while being friendly to newcomers of the franchise I'd say the film could hardly be more respectful to its characters.
 
I agree with most of the OP. The movie was really entertaining, but the problems I had with it make me dislike the film more and more every time I think about them.

Ultimately, it's not a sequel. It's a soft reboot. Just like Star Trek 09.

Abrams essentially rebooted/retconned ROTJ. Technically, we never saw the empire defeated - just decapitated. It doesn't contradict anything we saw to say that the remaining imperial fleet rebuilt itself and is wreaking havoc. But it totally contradicts the tone of the ending. ROTJ heavily implies that they day is saved, the heroes have won, and lessons have been learned.

If you want to have a sequel with the same heroes and villains, all that shit needs to get chucked out the window. So now it's, oops! the rebels couldn't mop up what was left of the villains so, instead of the whole galaxy coming together to rejoice the fall of tyranny and dance to Ewok tunes, we've got to deal with a post war escalation. Also, Luke's problems were tougher than he thought they'd be and Han Solo's such a scumbag that being made general of the galaxy's preeminent military force isn't enough to prevent him from fucking off to go back to slangin dope.

By capitalizing on the details that were omitted (and unneeded) in ROTJ, the filmmakers of TFA have subtly morphed the victory we saw from D-Day in space - the dramatic end of WWII and the fall of an evil empire - to Armistice Day - WWI is over, but everyone still hates each other and it's only a matter of time before things boil over. It really ruins what the last film did so we can have one more adventure.
 
YCK8EDZ.gif



wow there vaquero, lets keep it fresh till the end. Your opinions are "solid", but that is just bananas... The prequels were, are and are going to be dog poop in terms of everything. The only good thing that the prequels left were: natalie portman hot body in the white dress, obi-wan and the clone wars (tv serie)
Did I call them good films?
 
I read your post and my thought was "he's listing all the reasons that made episode 7 so awesome"

We spent, what, 5-6 years with these characters in the OT?

In the timeline of ep 7, it's been THIRTY FOUR YEARS. A lifetime we haven't had witness too happened to these people, and now we get to know them all over again.

Subverting expectations and creating mystery is exactly why ep 7 was so brilliantly structured. He world is so big now, they can go backwards or forwards from anywhere and it gives us 2 years to fill in the gaps.

Well played JJ

This. This so much.

These criticisms are hilarious. Has the backlash begun?

It's been 34 years. There was probably decades of fun times, peaceful times. Would you rather have a movie about fun peace times? Cause that's what you're implying.

The series is called STAR WARS.
 
This. This so much.

These criticisms are hilarious. Has the backlash begun?

It's been 34 years. There was probably decades of fun times, peaceful times. Would you rather have a movie about fun peace times? Cause that's what you're implying.

The series is called STAR WARS.
How about a different kind of war? Or is that too much?
 
I read your post and my thought was "he's listing all the reasons that made episode 7 so awesome"

We spent, what, 5-6 years with these characters in the OT?

In the timeline of ep 7, it's been THIRTY FOUR YEARS. A lifetime we haven't had witness too happened to these people, and now we get to know them all over again.

Subverting expectations and creating mystery is exactly why ep 7 was so brilliantly structured. He world is so big now, they can go backwards or forwards from anywhere and it gives us 2 years to fill in the gaps.

Well played JJ

Couldn't have said it better myself.

How about a different kind of war? Or is that too much?

Makes sense to not want Star Wars in a Star Wars movie.
 
It's a vastly different style of film from I-VI, I think that's going to become obvious in time once the honeymoon is over. It's very modern, very self-aware, and it lacks the confidence and vision of a creative mind who had a responsibility and obligation to nobody but himself.
 
It's a vastly different style of film from I-VI, I think that's going to become obvious in time once the honeymoon is over. It's very modern, very self-aware, and it lacks the confidence and vision of a creative mind who had a responsibility and obligation to nobody but himself.

"Very modern." Not like those CGI shitfests that were the prequels. Those were good, old fashioned movies, like grandma used to make.
 
This. This so much.

These criticisms are hilarious. Has the backlash begun?

It's been 34 years. There was probably decades of fun times, peaceful times. Would you rather have a movie about fun peace times? Cause that's what you're implying.

The series is called STAR WARS.

"Very modern." Not like those CGI shitfests that were the prequels. Those were good, old fashioned movies, like grandma used to make.

This type of stuff is so boring. Why are people insecure/scared of people saying something remotely negative about this film.
 
Couldn't have said it better myself.



Makes sense to not want Star Wars in a Star Wars movie.
Thanks for completely missing the point.

I'm proposing the idea of a different kind of conflict. A different kind of war in Star Wars. The conflict in TFA is literally identical to that of A New Hope.
 
Thanks for completely missing the point.

I'm proposing the idea of a different kind of conflict. A different kind of war in Star Wars. The conflict in TFA is literally identical to that of A New Hope.

Because this is the legacy of what George Lucas built. Star Wars went from being a cute little space opera about a farmer rescuing a princess from the evil man in black to being a family drama where the realism and purpose of the action took second place behind the spectacle of it. TFA falls exactly in line with that.

Edit: They could have gone in a different direction with the story but it wouldn't be Star Wars. Seriously, every goddamn movie is a tale about how someone related to the original core group did something and how their family had to stop them or help them. I don't know why anyone would expect TFA to not touch on those same familial touchstones, with the same action that's loosely chained to a plot. It's what the saga is about.
 
Because this is the legacy of what George Lucas built. Star Wars went from being a cute little space opera about a farmer rescuing a princess from the evil man in black to being a family drama where the realism of the action took second place behind the spectacle of it. TFA falls exactly in line with that.
Star Wars was always a family drama...
 
So did we expect life to be perfect after ROTJ?

It makes perfect sense that Luke would fail as a teacher, when he basically disobeyed or abandoned his training because of emotional reasons.

Han was a hero, but he is still Han. Kylo was a problem not even Luke could handle. Han not having a guaranteed way of fixing the problem, he did what he normally does. He runs from the problem.

The force is all about balance. Does balance=force or does balance=dark and light.
If it's dark and light, then it doesn't matter what Luke did, the dark side was always going to return.

The First Order was inevitable. Not every high ranking official was on the Death Star and not every Star Destroyer was destroyed after the battle. There were bound to be supporters or ranking officials trying to rebuild like Marvel's Hydra.

Life goes on and although we wish they could live happily ever after, it's not "realistic", especially if we want to believe these characters are real.

TFA making the previous trilogy pointless is a complaint I hate. Was WWI pointless cause we got WWII?

this too
 
Star Wars was always a family drama...

Not in ANH. Despite what Lucas had hoped to film later, the original film had no hint of the family ties because there was no room for it. That shit came later.

Besides the deaths of Luke's crusty aunt and uncle (which he shows almost zero emotion over) and a vague mention of Anakin, there's nary a word about family until the sequel opened the can of worms that laid the blueprint for what all Star Wars movies would become.

As I understand it a lot of people were quite unhappy about WWII breaking out, and had a lot of complaints about it in general.

Right but the existence of WWII didn't undo the lessons of, or sacrifices in, WWI.
 
"Very modern." Not like those CGI shitfests that were the prequels. Those were good, old fashioned movies, like grandma used to make.

Funny, I saw quite a lot of CG in The Force Awakens.

But since you mention it, the prequels did at least adhere to the same filmmaking techniques Lucas used in his classic trilogy, which were themselves at the time deliberately evocative of much older movies and short films.

Abrams, for all his claims of chasing up Kurosawa, Ford and Hawks like Lucas did, is still using his signature full-frame close-ups, shaky cams, flashbacks and so-on, in addition to a postmodern writing style which favours glib self-reference almost to the point of parody, rather than Lucas' fairytale sincerity and naivety.

So did we expect life to be perfect after ROTJ?

No, but it would be nice to have had a Star Wars sequel which didn't hit the galactic political reset button with the thinnest of excuses so the stage is set for an almost identical situation to the OT.
 
So did we expect life to be perfect after ROTJ?

Naw but do we expect that all 3 of the Core characters will be worse off than they were at the end of ROTJ? I certainly didn't.

Makes all their personal gains in the OT almost worthless. Reminds me of how pissed I was when in Alien3, the opening of the film immediately kills of Newt and Hicks, erasing all the work and emotion that Ripley invested in Aliens protecting them.

Similar thing for me, all the work that Luke, Han and Leia did is undone because of, um, reasons.
 
This type of stuff is so boring. Why are people insecure/scared of people saying something remotely negative about this film.

Fanboyism. Not even once

I mostly agree with OP even if I enjoyed the movie. The original characters were set back almost to square one. Hopefully the sequels will spice it up and not focus too much on Kylo or the first order or whatever remnants of the empire, and move on to something grander


Yeah and didn't we beat the Germans the first time. Why is this the same thing again?

This is the first and only good point in favor this movie's conflict that I have ever seen
 
Side note: I actually thought that the First Order was going to be the good guys / new republic equivalent, with star destroyers and stormtrooper-like armor and all that. By the time the movie came out obviously I knew it wasn't, but yeah.

Having not seen a single preview or read a single thing about the movie (other than internet headlines about the returning cast and a black lead in the movie), I momentarily wondered at the start of the film if the Stormtroopers were clones, regular people or what and whether they were good guys, Republics troopers, Empire remnants, or what.

Also, I thought initially that the pilot guy that got captured was Han Solo's son from the attitude/quips he was giving the bad guy.
 
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