So? Obama was an amazing, perfect storm candidate.
Why such little enthusiasm for Hilary Clinton?
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So? Obama was an amazing, perfect storm candidate.
I feel that if you actually want Bernie to win you vote for him, if he doesn't win, vote for Hillary.
Exactly. She wasn't strong enough.
Exactly. She wasn't strong enough.
fuck, now I keep sounding like Trump
ephemeral garbage
Member
I'm a Bernie supporter and I genuinely like Hillary. I'll happily vote for her if she wins the primary. I generally don't speak up because I feel like that's a commonsense position? I'm sure there are some complete left wing dudes who are all Bernie or Bust but I don't know any, I only see that shit online.
It's your right to vote for whomever you want in the primary. The main concern is really not the primary so much as the general election; if Hillary is the nominee, and she still doesn't represent your beliefs as well as her Republican opponent, well then the issue wouldn't really be Hillary Clinton.
What has been objectionable to me these past few months is the sheer amount of lies about and vilification of Hillary because she happens to be the opponent of who many GAF posters support. There's all sorts of subtle, unconscious sexism that just slips by and is not called out because other posters support the same arguments of fakeness, of corporate puppetry, of corruption, of whatever that they don't pull out proof for. It's largely based on the passion and emotion of investment into a competition. Hillary could put out a good idea (she recently revealed a plan for autism that was praised by the autism community, yet on GAF there are threads about her social media outreach instead) and either no one notices or if there are threads, there would be drive bys with the same old arguments listed above.
It's exhausting to see ignorant post after ignorant post ("She's a 180 from Obama" "How is she more liberal than Obama?") to idiot post after idiot post ("She's not cool" "She's fake") to posts that are just plain bitter about Hillary, because she planned and worked out her run and campaign earlier and better than her opponents did, and therefore it's been difficult for her opponents to gain on her. They blame the system, they blame the party, they blame Hillary, they blame everyone but themselves for not voting in 2010 or 2014, for their own apathy. If the only way one can vote for a candidate is if they are enthused by said candidate, what makes them better than the people who voted for George Bush because they wanted someone they could have a beer with?
The absolute worst thing about all of this is that I thought the left was above the petty shit that the right does when it comes to Obama and Hillary. After all these years of shit piled on Obama by conservatives, you would think that they're able to recognize such poor behavior and media issues, and be above it all.
Your Entertainer
Member
"I believe marriage is not just a bond, but sacred bond between a man and a woman"
...the fundamental bedrock principle that [marriage] exists between a man and a woman, going back into the midst of history as one of the founding, foundational institutions of history and humanity and civilization, and that its primary, principal role during those millennia has been the raising and socializing of children for the society into which they are to become adults.
-HRC in 2004. Also stood by Bill signing the Defense of Marriage Act. I think Bernie remains a better proponent of gay rights, and I believe if Hillary is attacked for flip flopping on the issue of gay rights/marriage, it's because of the above and rightfully so. That's much worse than what you quoted from Bernie and much more recent.
JesseEwiak
Member
Still better than anybody else running who can win a general election. Welcome to America. Progress is made slowly, bloodily, and inch by inch.
Yup, Bill should've wrecked his own Presidency and vetoed a bill that would've been overrided easily, possibly allowing a anti-gay marriage amendment to be passed into the Constitution in reaction. Makes total strategic sense.
BearFlexington
Member
The hearing was about the death of Americans. Her posture and attitude (even if warranted) was unstatesmanlike.
User 463088
Banned
She, at worst, tied him in the popular vote, and if you want to be a little shady, can argue she won more of the popular vote than he did. It's a little disingenuous to do that, though. At any rate, she had more primary votes than any other candidate, Democrat or Republican, in history...2nd only (possibly) to Obama.
But your first thing is absolutely correct. If you believe in progressive ideas, vote for whoever the hell you want in the primary. (Gov. McSexy Abs is running too). If your horse doesn't win, you switch to the next closet to your views. Logically, that should be a member of the party that your guy/girl was running in.
Partly due to his charisma, speeches etc
Clinton was in the same spot, but she fell behind, partly due to lack of the above.
Why would I move to Sweden? I don't mind living in a capitalist country. I'd probably be happy growing up in a communist or socialist country as well, but I didn't grow up in one of those so those are irrelevant to me. I'm not interested in moving because I don't have a problem with how the USA works.
I guess you have to define "this form of capitalism" as that's a bit vague. Within the next few decades, we'll be pushed towards universal healthcare and things like that, but capitalism will continue to be the foundation of this country. I mean, unless World War 3 happens and we lose or something. I don't even get how that's debatable. That doesn't mean that capitalism is the best system in the world or anything, but it will consistently be supported by the vast majority of the country and the political process will do the rest.
I think it's very sad that you must have a lot of money in USA to become a presidential candidate. That's not real democracy and Bernie is the only one Ive heard who has kept speaking about this "America is not a real democracy" thing.
What's the popular vote? Im not american and even though Ive tried learning the american system in school, it's pretty complicated.
What's the popular vote? Im not american and even though Ive tried learning the american system in school, it's pretty complicated.
That's bullshit. I like her most because she makes tamales just like mi abuela.
Goldenroad
Member
Hard to have enthusiasm when you think of it as such:
Please. The last thing that hearing was about was the victims.
pretty sure Bernie has a better shot at winning the general than Hillary
::nods::
JesseEwiak
Member
Choosing the lesser of evils is how we got the New Deal, the Great Society, and most of the progress in the past 200 years in America. Welcome to real life.
Hillary's faced down 20 years of constant attacks from the Right with every dirty trick in the book is still standing. Bernie hasn't been attacked one bit despite tons of stuff, and there's literally billions of dollar ready to do so. Get back to me in six months when every suburban Mom in Florida knows Bernie personally went to gulags while on his honeymoon in the USSR.
Epsilon-delta
Banned
I agree. I'm going to vote for Bernie in the primaries, and if Hillary wins the nom, I'll vote for her in the general.
It's not that hard.
I don't envy future Democrats who will have to deal with the elephant in the room called automation as we get closer to 2030 and beyond.
We're going to see some shit, that's for sure.
Your Entertainer
Member
No, I didn't miss it.
Re read the end of my post. I was responding to your point about "only one of them being attacked". That's why imo.
teruterubozu
Member
And sometimes voting for the candidates you believe in.
AnotherDayAnotherDollar
Banned
Well I have seen people like me IRL. Someone who has never voted, never followed politics, never was associated with a political party and will vote for Sanders and dislike Clinton for various different reasons.
For the record, I will vote for Sanders if he gets the nod and probably abstain (like I have been doing all my life) if he doesn't. That is also contingent on me liking his tax plan, otherwise I'll just abstain in the general election as well.
RustyNails
Member
Bravo.
SlickShoesRUCrazy
Member
What? No it wasn't. It was even admitted to being nothing more than a political farce by the right wing.
If the 6 or so investigations prior to the hearing didn't find that she did anything wrong, what was the hearing going to find? There was less investigation done about 9/11 than there was about Benghazi.
JesseEwiak
Member
Idealism is nice to have when you've got nothing to lose.
Third Strike
Member
I have a good feeling many of these people saying they won't vote for Clinton if Bernie doesn't get the nomination are not a reliable group of voters. Even Bernie will vote for Clinton if she gets the nomination, and will encourage his base to do the same, because Bernie is smart enough to know the implications of not voting in the upcoming election. I have some issues with Clinton, but I will vote for her 100x over, then to vote for a Republican, or to not vote at all. There are too many things at stake to sit out the upcoming election. Any progress made in the past eight years will vaporize if a GOP president gets in (which will also indicate a GOP-controlled Congress).
eBay Huckster
Member
What did I just fucking post? She had his 2006 position 7 years in advance, while her husband was still president.
theignoramus
Member
Bill probably shouldn't have lied through his teeth about it though. Should've owned that shit.
I did, and think it's just as patently ridiculous to complain about Hillary flip flopping on gay rights when Bernie has done the same exact thing!
How about in 2006 when Bernie called it a states's rights issue? How about how he wasn't actually in support of gay marriage until after Vermont passed it, and even said that they shouldn't try to pass gay marriage in Vermont? What courage.
He's just as bad as Hillary is on the issue and yet no one cares.
SlickShoesRUCrazy
Member
Exactly!
teruterubozu
Member
Oh OK, so I'm a privileged white guy now.
Seriously, I'm so sick of this broken record.
John Dunbar
correct about everything
your vote is not going to decide the election anyway, so if you are going to vote there is no reason not to vote for the person you would most want to see win.
Im going to bed now, but my last thing to say in this is: If Bernie doesn't win the nomination thing, vote for Hillary. The worst thing that will imo happen to America is an republican in the White House and a conservative Supreme Court.
There's a lot of things Obama has done which I disagree with him on, but he has moved USA to the left with lots of things (gay marriage for example). Don't let a republican make your country go crazy and religious nutty. America has come a long way, but has still a long way to go.
Simply don't let the crazy clown car be able to drive up to the White House.
There's a lot of things Obama has done which I disagree with him on, but he has moved USA to the left with lots of things (gay marriage for example). Don't let a republican make your country go crazy and religious nutty. America has come a long way, but has still a long way to go.
Simply don't let the crazy clown car be able to drive up to the White House.
Yes, standing his ground would have been better. Educate the people if you think they're wrong, don't just acquiescence like that. Also, I heavily doubt the claim that an anti-gay marriage amendment had any possibility of being passed if Clinton didn't walk the Republican line. Claiming so is a a bit disingenuous.
User 463088
Banned
You know what, I'm gayer than a fruitcake at a disco, and I get so sick of this. People were wrong about marriage equality. Bernie was for civil unions initially.
But, let's say I concede your point that Bernie has said the right things on gay rights for decades...what has he done. Bernie has a lot of great soundbites, yet he's done essentially nothing to make them a reality in the 25 years he's been in Washington.
I can point to specific things that Hillary has done to benefit the LGBT community. During her time at State, she focused extensively on LGBT issues at home and abroad. She was the first First Lady to ever march in a pride parade. She says she wants to be the 1st President to do it as well. She spoke on the international stage on how important it is to realize the rights of trans people. These are actions. When she speaks, people listen. She's proposing specific legislation to make our lives better.
That, and breaking the GOP would go a long way towards shifting the national political center of gravity leftward. A third loss and the loss of SCOTUS would go a long way toward that goal.
Your Entertainer
Member
Dude - if you're wondering why she's being attacked, I think what I provided gives the answer. It's why she's singled out and nobody else is. My view on whether others should be attacked for their past views has nothing to do with it. Understand what I'm saying before going off. It's clear you're fired up about this.
For what it's worth, I think what Hillary voiced is much worse than Simply saying it's not a priority. I'll respond to your other points when I'm not on my phone.
Epsilon-delta
Banned
Glorified G
Member
This is most likely projection on your part, considering one of the reasons you want Hillary to win is simply based on sex.
JesseEwiak
Member
If you're OK with the GOP burning everything down for 4 to 8 years just under the theory the DNC will become more left wing, then bluntly, you're either an idiot when it comes to political science or insanely privileged.
Supporting Bernie in the primaries, then voting for Hilary in the general is fine. Saying you want to see the things burn if you don't get your way, that's idiotic.
Your Entertainer
Member
And you didn't really get the point of my post either.
Edit: I'll stop posting on my phone, can't see shit
teruterubozu
Member
Oh OK, I'm an idiot now. You're on a roll.
Are you seriously arguing against idealism? Isn't that sort of a american thing, shouting ideals from the rooftops?
With that attitude, why vote at all? And tell all of your friends with similar beliefs not to vote either since their vote doesn't matter. Then we get to have our leaders elected by the senior citizens again.
I waited three hours in line in Arkansas to vote for Obama and I waited three hours in line in Arkansas to vote in the mid-terms. Maybe your candidate doesn't win this time, but that candidate will NEVER win if noone ever votes for him or her.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
How are you fighting against capitalism?
theignoramus
Member
Sanders has gone through a total 180 on gay rights? From what I read he went from tepid supporter to full fledged proponent. That's an evolution not a reversal of a position.
Exactly. When McGovern lost to Nixon did the Democrats go to a another liberal firebrand? No. They went to Carter. When Reagan clobbered Carter+Mondale & his VP clobbered Dukakis did the Democrats turn to another liberal firebrand? No they turned to Bill Clinton.
Don't "dude" me.
I don't think what you provide me gives any answer to why Bernie fans are just OKAY with my original point:
How is Bernie not guilty of the same thing we're now holding against Hillary Clinton? Why are we just collectively ignoring this?????
He went from "I'm not a supporter of a non-discrimination bill" to "Gay marriage is great! (once it's already passed my state legislature and up until recently I was saying how the state legislature should not push for gay marriage)". I'm not saying Hillary is better, but it's ridiculous to hold someone as some sort of monster on the issue while ignoring that their own candidate was just as shitty in their own ways.
Not to mention Hillary's actual record in state is probably leagues about anything Sanders has done for gay rights, even if she has a really shitty history with gay marriage.
jackissocool
Member
No, we mostly got those things cause mass labor and people's organizing scared the people in power so they threw us concessions to avoid losing their power. If we want progress, we need to organize in the streets and frighten the ruling class.
polls seem to indicate that Bernie is the more electable candidate. Bernie is the best candidate to beat Trump. Bernie is the best candidate to beat Cruz. the stakes are too high this election to risk going with Hillary imo.
JesseEwiak
Member
Hell, when Clinton KO'd the GOP two straight times, they didn't nominate Steve Forbes. They nominated Dubya, who expanded Medicare (in a shitty way, but he still did it), wanted to reform immigration, and expand federal control of education (again, in a shitty way, but he worked with Ted F'ing Kennedy).
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