We always knew they would team up eventually, but a lot of people - myself included - had thought there could be a clear winner here. I mean, obviously neither of them die, but maybe someone getting really fucked up. It's obvious that they are basically both perfectly fine, though.
Freddy Vs. Jason was the last time I saw a movie where two iconic figures fought and someone actually won instead of a cop out plot of having them putting aside their differences and working together.
Considering Guardians or non superhero movies like The Unusual Suspect and Hateful Eight have ensembles, the problem isn't "cramming too much into a film". It's the execution of the film that matters
We always knew they would team up eventually, but a lot of people - myself included - had thought there could be a clear winner here. I mean, obviously neither of them die, but maybe someone getting really fucked up. It's obvious that they are basically both perfectly fine, though.
This movie does deal with the introduction of Kryptonite and seeing how that affects Superman's psyche has always been something fundamental to the character. Just as well, from what we've seen both Batman and Lex Luthor will contribute to a change in Superman's entire hero mentality. Rather it's Batman attacking his lack of oversight or Luthor attacking the godlike persona that's been built up, Superman's own set of morals is constantly being tested because it seems to him that the more good he does then the more animosity he faces. I trust that Superman will be forced into taking a hard look about his role in the world.
Mirroring that, it will be interesting to see how interacting with Superman causes Batman to emerge in the public eye as a superhero instead of a vigilante that stalks the shadows. One thing that I've picked up on about this new Batman from all the articles and interviews is that he experiences a underlying feeling of inadequacy - to protect his allies, family, city, etc.. While he is challenging this invincible man of steel, he is also internally challenging that feeling. He is struggling to know rather he has really left a lasting effect on Gotham or on the planet during his crusade (just look at the Suicide Squad trailer - the Joker certainly hasn't slowed down) so if taking down Superman can be a catalyst towards accomplishing the vow he made to his parents then so be it. Even though this takes a lot of inspiration from TDKR, this Batman still isn't anywhere as stable and mature as that iteration.
In terms of repercussions, I'm more invested in learning how their ideas about themselves are impacted rather than seeing Superman in an sling cast or Batman in a wheelchair after they fight. To that point, I believe the formation of the Justice League will be less about Batman and Superman shaking hands and playing boy scouts but rather as a external materialization of both Batman's and Superman's internal growth and self-acceptance.
We always knew they would team up eventually, but a lot of people - myself included - had thought there could be a clear winner here. I mean, obviously neither of them die, but maybe someone getting really fucked up. It's obvious that they are basically both perfectly fine, though.
Just because they team up afterwards doesn't mean that there's not going to be a clear winner. As far as I can tell we don't even know a much time will pass between Batman versus Superman and the fight against Doomsday.
Glad I'm not the only one who thinks selling this movie with a focus on the "fight" is odd.
I know it's called batman v superman but we know they team up and fight doomsday at the end. Presumably.
I think a better example is X Men Days of Future Past because so many people thought it would be a bloated mess but it ended up being much better than expected.
Those movies didn't work for reasons other than "there are a lot of characters in it"
Especially considering most movies tend to have a lot of characters in them. Most of whom don't even have the benefit of being branded logos for most of their existence.
The fact you had to go back like 20+ years to edit in Batman Forever kinda goes to the point that it's not the number of characters that makes or breaks the film's storytelling, anymore than a band needs a set number of musicians in order to make good music.
Considering Guardians or non superhero movies like The Unusual Suspect and Hateful Eight have ensembles, the problem isn't "cramming too much into a film". It's the execution of the film that matters
The problem isn't characters (though that is a symptom), the problem with those films is far too many subplots that are all at best rushed as hell and at worst comletely forgotten one they're introduced.
Take Spider-Man 3, you have:
-Spidey vs Sandman who was the one who really killed Uncle Ben
-Spidey vs Goblin who is his best friend and thinks he killed his father
-Peter trying to maintain relationship with Mary Jane
-Peter starting to fall for Gwen Stacy, love triangle
-Peter and Eddie Brock vie for position at Daily Bugle
-Harry gets amnesia, what does Peter do now?
-Peter gets the black suit, starts becoming a jerk
and finally in the 15 minutes of the movie, Brock becomes Venom and kidnaps MJ for the third damn tome.
Oceans Eleven, and GotG work because even though there are so many characters, there is only even one main plot that they all focus on (robbing the Casino, getting the infinity gems). Subplots and never forced front and center only to be forgotten about like the other films.
I think that with WB's initial push to show a darker/more serious side to the comics in film and the reputation of TDK trilogy preceding these movies brought up a lot of fan's expectations beyond what WB have showcased at this point.
... You can have a good amount of subplots and a wide variety of characters in a ~2 hour film. It's been done endless amounts of times, even in comic book films within the last two years.
Just because they team up afterwards doesn't mean that there's not going to be a clear winner. As far as I can tell we don't even know a much time will pass between Batman versus Superman and the fight against Doomsday.
Well I'm assuming the fight happens near the end - it would be a monumentally stupid decision to market a movie as BATMAN vs SUPERMAN and then put that in the first act. I can't see much time having elapsed.
Well I'm assuming the fight happens near the end - it would be a monumentally stupid decision to market a movie as BATMAN vs SUPERMAN and then put that in the first act.
I truly believe this was Doomsday shooting heat vision at Batman because you can see the flames from the destruction in the back caused by Doomsday. So it looks clear that they are fighting in Gotham because I think Metropolis had enough after Man of Steel. Supes is not going to take Batman serious without that armed suit.
Film looks incredible visually, so glad Snyder went back to working with Larry Fong. That shot with batman using the grapple gun before avoiding the heat vision is amazing.
Well I'm assuming the fight happens near the end - it would be a monumentally stupid decision to market a movie as BATMAN vs SUPERMAN and then put that in the first act. I can't see much time having elapsed.
I'm waiting for the heated moment tho when Batman is kicking the shit out of Superman and Supes is all fucked up and winded and looks at Bats, says "who are you!?" and... you know what Bats is gonna say.
You KNOW it's gonna happen. It practically writes itself.
Which is exactly my point. It kind of removes any tension from the fight knowing that roughly 20 minutes later they will be teaming up to fight Doomsday
Those movies didn't work for reasons other than "there are a lot of characters in it"
Especially considering most movies tend to have a lot of characters in them. Most of whom don't even have the benefit of being branded logos for most of their existence.
The fact you had to go back like 20+ years to edit in Batman Forever kinda goes to the point that it's not the number of characters that makes or breaks the film's storytelling, anymore than a band needs a set number of musicians in order to make good music.
Number of characters doesn't make or break a movie. Hell, I'm pretty pumped for the Suicide Squad movie. But that's because it feels like that movie has focus. It's focusing on the ensemble and the team-up aspect of that movie. Bad guys forced to team up to take down bigger bad. We don't need an elaborate set up cause none of them, save for Joker and Harley, are going to be franchise characters.
Number of plot points? In the hands of a spotty and divisive director like Snyder, it definitely is a valid concern.
Well I'm assuming the fight happens near the end - it would be a monumentally stupid decision to market a movie as BATMAN vs SUPERMAN and then put that in the first act. I can't see much time having elapsed.
Which is exactly my point. It kind of removes any tension from the fight knowing that roughly 20 minutes later they will be teaming up to fight Doomsday
I'm waiting for the heated moment tho when Batman is kicking the shit out of Superman and Supes is all fucked up and winded and looks at Bats, says "who are you!?" and... you know what Bats is gonna say.
You KNOW it's gonna happen. It practically writes itself.
Which is exactly my point. It kind of removes any tension from the fight knowing that roughly 20 minutes later they will be teaming up to fight Doomsday
Well, not to me since the movie is called Dawn of the Justice League. Even before Doomsday revealed people assumed that was the general structure of the movie.
Well, not to me since the movie is called Dawn of the Justice League. Even before Doomsday revealed people assumed that was the general structure of the movie.
It's called Dawn of Justice, which is slightly more ambiguous. My impression prior to the second trailer was that this was simply sowing the seeds for the JL - not actually forming it. But it's obvious that's their intention and they want people to know it since it's in the advertising, so the problem lies with me.
Which is exactly my point. It kind of removes any tension from the fight knowing that roughly 20 minutes later they will be teaming up to fight Doomsday
what tension? you know they aren't going to die because fucking justice league was announced already, also the movie's subtitle gives away the fight ends with neither of them getting seriously injured.
it's like knowing all the core avengers members survive in AoU because they already got movies and appaerances line-up after AoU and then complaining about it.
what tension? you know they aren't going to die because fucking justice league was announced already, also the movie's subtitle gives away the fight ends with neither of them getting seriously injured.
it's like knowing all the core avengers members survive in AoU because they already got movies and appaerances line-up after AoU and then complaining about it.
There's other forms of tension than just "Do they die?". One of those is not knowing exactly what's going to happen to them, all I was saying is that it seems nothing of significance happens to either them.
How many plot points you think we're dealing with here?
Just based off the trailers:
Superman doesn't like Batman
Batman doesn't like Superman
Lex Luthor doesn't like either of them, and is setting up their fight via his anti-alien rhetoric
Lex Luthor is also turning Zod into Doomsday
Batman & Superman figure this out and team up to go after Doomsday/Luthor
That's five basic plot points. There are more poseable joints on Superman's action figure than there are on this film's story.
How many plot points you think we're dealing with here?
Just based off the trailers:
Superman doesn't like Batman
Batman doesn't like Superman
Lex Luthor doesn't like either of them, and is setting up their fight.
Lex Luthor is also turning Zod into Doomsday
Batman & Superman figure this out and go after Doomsday/Luthor
That's five basic plot points. There are more poseable joints on Superman's action figure than there are on this film's story.
This is probably the worst argument I've heard about BvS thus far. Snyder's questionable talent? Sure. Too much going on? Sure. Needless characters? Sure. Rush to catch up to Marvel? Sure. Batman and Superman don't seriously injure each other? What?
Regardless of that trailer the movie would still play out exactly the same. What you got in the first CC trailer and the 2nd trailer all came from the same movie.
Freddy Vs. Jason was the last time I saw a movie where two iconic figures fought and someone actually won instead of a cop out plot of having them putting aside their differences and working together.
Neither needs to die in order for there to be a fight. They clearly beat the crap out of one another in the movie, as indicated in the nearly endless amounts of promos we've seen.
Batman can beat Superman down and then tell him to lighten up and listen, etc. This shouldn't be that hard to comprehend. Here's an example of this exact situation.
How many plot points you think we're dealing with here?
Just based off the trailers:
Superman doesn't like Batman
Batman doesn't like Superman
Lex Luthor doesn't like either of them, and is setting up their fight via his anti-alien rhetoric
Lex Luthor is also turning Zod into Doomsday
Batman & Superman figure this out and team up to go after Doomsday/Luthor
That's five basic plot points. There are more poseable joints on Superman's action figure than there are on this film's story.
And introduce Wonder Woman and set up that Justice League movie.
Batman needs no reintroduction. People know Batman, even if he's not the Batman from the past 3 batman movies that people have seen. But I do want a good set up for why they are physically fighting each other than "they don't like each other."
That's not part of the universe. Of course everyone signs for multiple movies, but that doesn't tell what happens in the universe. You can have hologram Tony Stark for all we know. Hell, others can die. Bucky can die. War Machine can die. Falcon can die. It's very unsure and it may happen in a Marvel movie.
However, the tension is still there and its fresh in the trailer. Iron Man talking about them being friends. Them kicking Iron Man's ass as if he is going to fucking pass out. Hints of others being dead or immobilized.
Hell, even if they have a hurrah momentum in the end, it doesn't matter because the tension hasn't been spoiled by the trailer and they never will. Marvel ain't fucking this up. Disney ain't fucking this up. WB did.
To be fair Civil War is the first Marvel movie to have some kind of tension going underneath. There have been what, 12 movies? And it took them this far (I guess it was Perlmutter's fault).
